Microsoft Teases Revamped UI For Windows 10 (gizmodo.com) 160
In celebration of Windows 10 hitting 1 billion users, Microsoft's chief product officer Panos Panay teased Windows 10's next UI refresh. Gizmodo reports: In the video posted to Instagram, Microsoft starts by showing the evolution of its OS throughout the years going as far back as Windows 1.01 all the way to Windows 10. However, where things start to get interesting is around 12 seconds in when Microsoft shows off a new set of updated icons followed by a redesigned look for Windows 10's Start Menu and Live Tiles. Instead of a bunch of brightly color rectangles, Microsoft is implementing a more unified color scheme that can adjust automatically to match your desktop background and potentially other UI elements.
Additionally, Microsoft also showed off a wide variety of accessibility options including a range of pointers in various sizes and colors, what looks like improved support for the Xbox Adaptive Controller, a tease for a new built-in snipping tool, and more. Then Microsoft capped everything off by showing light and dark themes for Windows 10 along with a bunch of windows resizing and snapping options, all designed to making multi-tasking just a bit faster and easier. Microsoft also made a point to mention support for both x86-based systems powered by chips from Intel and AMD and ARM-based systems like the Surface Pro X.
Additionally, Microsoft also showed off a wide variety of accessibility options including a range of pointers in various sizes and colors, what looks like improved support for the Xbox Adaptive Controller, a tease for a new built-in snipping tool, and more. Then Microsoft capped everything off by showing light and dark themes for Windows 10 along with a bunch of windows resizing and snapping options, all designed to making multi-tasking just a bit faster and easier. Microsoft also made a point to mention support for both x86-based systems powered by chips from Intel and AMD and ARM-based systems like the Surface Pro X.
Enough with reinventing the wheel. (Score:5, Insightful)
Why don't they bring back Classic Mode, at least as an option?
Re:Enough with reinventing the wheel. (Score:5, Insightful)
Classic Start Menu still works for now, the UI update is probably being released with the intention of breaking it.
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In celebration of Windows 10 hitting 1 billion users
wow .... wow
Re:Enough with reinventing the wheel. (Score:5, Funny)
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Bring back the hotdog colour scheme.
Desert and storm were quite nice, too.
Re:Enough with reinventing the wheel. (Score:5, Informative)
Stardock Start10 [stardock.com]
Classic Shell [classicshell.net]
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Stardock Start10 does not have Classic Start menu. It can manage the various Fisher-Price "My First Computer" kiddy-toy interfaces, but not a Classic Start menu.
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Re:Enough with reinventing the wheel. (Score:5, Informative)
Classic Shell was replaced by Ooen Shell quite a while ago.
https://github.com/Open-Shell/Open-Shell-Menu [github.com]
Re:Enough with reinventing the wheel. (Score:5, Interesting)
MS is not interested in providing a stable, reliable, secure and long-term unchanged tool. They rather waste the time of their users being "innovative".
In contrast, my fvwm-based Linux desktop looks the same since around 1990 and there is no need to change it. I configured what I want and need once and just keep that, with minor adjustments over time and one (!) need to port it with a few hours of effort when fvwm2 came out. Still the same functionality though.
Re:Enough with reinventing the wheel. (Score:4)
Re:Enough with reinventing the wheel. (Score:5, Insightful)
I certainly wouldn't mind the look never changing if that meant the overall number of bugs actually decreasing and my computer upgrades actually going towards my data/applications rather than being gobbled up the OS' ever-expanding resource requirements.
A clean install of Win10 is about 30 times the size of a clean WinXP install. Are you 30 times more productive with it than you were with XP? Is it 30 times easier for a maintain and manage? If all the applications I use could be magically ported to something XP's exact feature set (but, say 64bit) I can't think of a single Win10 feature that would make me want to switch over.
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A virtualized filesystem can be implemented in 10 lines of C code, same with a virtualized registry. Virtualization of these things are NOT responsible for the bloat.
And no, apps are NOT more secure than they used to be. Windows runs the Operating System within the application virtual address space. It is inherently insecure by design and the problems inherent in this design cannot be fixed except by fixing the design to "secure by design" rather than the current model of "secured by sticky-tape".
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Apps don't get a virtualized filesystem and registry. What Windows actually does if a legacy application tries to write someplace it shouldn't like in Program Files or HKLM, then Windows will silently redirect the writes to someplace in the user's profile, and then when the application tries to read that data back Windows will silently redirect back to where that data is actually stored. If an application writes only where to it should, which it should have been doing anyway if it was written correctly fo
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Yes that's what users are clamoring for. For every new release to look exactly the same as the previous release.
Is that sarcasm? It's hard to tell since in Slashdot there are people who legitimately think that's what users want because we're biased by way of actually using our computers professionally.
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The snark is appreciated, but it highlights a real problem for MS: why do I need to spend my cash on a new version of your OS?
Windows 7 still works perfectly fine. Hell, Xp/2k still work fine for most business applications ( and would be 100% without forced obsolescence ).
I suspect this question is why they feel the need to fuck with the interface every version; to show "progress", however artificial, and so keep the masses mollified. Meanwhile, those of us in a business setting dread their chemically ind
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Well the reason why they needed to ditch the Windows 7 UI was because high DPI monitors are a thing now. Windows needed to go DPI independent and the Windows 7 UI just wasn't cutting it. Try it out on a 4k monitor, or even Windows 8.1 for that matter. It's not a great experience.
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Yes, no way they could ever have...I dunno...updated 7 to better address that issue.
No way at all. Impossible. Unpossible, even.
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Well that's a debate about why software even has new versions and they don't just keep patching the old code base. And the answer boils down to because that way they can make you buy it again.
Or at least that's normally the answer, Microsoft seem to have decided that perpetual updates are the way forward with Windows 10 now. A lot of corporate customers don't like that and would prefer they didn't change the UI, but Microsoft seems to have other priorities now.
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But if they didn't move everything around how could they charge $1000s re-certifying everyone for their new version?
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So what Linux distro and window manager were you using in 1990?
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So what Linux distro and window manager were you using in 1990?
Initially, I did the fvwm config on SunOS on my University account. A few years later, I copied it to SuSE. That would have been in 1994 or 1995, I think.
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MS is not interested in providing a stable, reliable, secure and long-term unchanged tool. They rather waste the time of their users being "innovative".
There's a reason for that. Stable secure and long-term unchanging is interesting to a bunch of geeks and professionals. For the other 7 billion people in the world there's ample evidence that shows that something perfectly functional starts becoming "old", "non innovative" or otherwise considered sub par simply because its look doesn't change.
Google and MS don't pay people to move shit around the screen for nothing. They do it because it makes them money.
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I dunno, it looks exactly the same to me. I honestly can't tell what has changed apart from a few icons for their own apps, and I don't really look at the icons when using it.
The main issue is that the themes still don't make window borders and controls very visible. Dark mode is particularly bad but light isn't much better.
So in long standing tradition Microsoft hasn't actually improved the usability of the UI at all, just slightly tweaked the bits that don't matter. I guess that's a kind of stability.
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its called design, and the designers are the ones who do it for their own willy-waving at other designers.
If they could have everything white with light grey text, on a white background so its "clean" and "modern" they would.
Like many things in this fucked up world of elitist bubbles, design has got nothing to do with users any more.
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Indeed.
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So in long standing tradition Microsoft hasn't actually improved the usability of the UI at all, just slightly tweaked the bits that don't matter. I guess that's a kind of stability.
Well, MS still being incompetent and arrogant in the UI space is certainly a kind of stability. Fortunately I do not need them for anything except office and gaming these days and even my work laptop is now Linux with a virtualized Win10 for the legacy MS office application.
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Agreed 100%.
I will go a step farther and say that my desktop doesn't look the same as it did in 1990, but has "evolved" according to MY needs and wants. Conky, xfce, and various tweaks have given me a desktop interface that is snappy, intuitive (for me) and effective in enhancing my productivity.
I can't imagine going backwards to a system where a vendor wants to dictate how I work and use their precious operating system.
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Same here. Whenever I am forced to use clunky MS crap, I feel like being thrown back 20 years. I mean they do not even have a decent pager in Win10, how ridiculous is that? Fvwm has had one for around 25 years now.
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Well, I do not really know who you are talking to here, it is not me. Sure, there are some things now that MS does not completely mess up anymore and that is progress. On the other hand they are illegally (and probably criminally according to the GDPR) spying on users these day on mass-scale, so overall I am unconvinced. "Doing good" looks differently.
Re:Enough with reinventing the wheel. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Enough with reinventing the wheel. (Score:5, Funny)
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You may recall that Steve Jobs was not a hipster but liked to do this periodically as well. If you look at the evolution of MacOS X every new version made mostly cosmetic and often quite unpopular changes to the UI. iOS is affected too. Time Apple has not reversed that trend either.
If it's millennials doing it they were probably told to by their boomer boss.
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Ah, a whataboutism.
Why do you think Apple is somehow excluded from his post? The designer as described seems more an Apple employee anyway.
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It's not whataboutism, it's just pointing out that he is attacking the wrong people.
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So in defense of MS, you said, "But what about apple!"...when apple wasn't even part of the discussion.
But that's not a "whataboutism". Interesting.
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I'm not defending MS, I'm defending the millennial developers who have to design and build these crap UIs based on orders from high up.
To be absolutely clear I think the Windows 10 UI is rubbish.
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No, I think it was from high up at Dice. If you recall they bought Slashdot and then tried to monetize the hell out of it. Wanted to revive its fortunes with a redesign to make it more appealing, i.e. the people at the top told the developers to make it trendy.
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Because programmers don't know when to stop. At some point your design has reached its peak. Stop change for the sake of change.
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Because programmers don't know when to stop. At some point your design has reached its peak. Stop change for the sake of change.
Programmers don't get to decide to change the UI. Not unless it's their own project (like in open source). At microsoft I can pretty much guarantee that a non-technical person is in charge of the direction the UI goes.
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Because programmers don't know when to stop. At some point your design has reached its peak. Stop change for the sake of change.
No. Programmers have nothing to do with it. Rearranging the deck chairs makes money. Interfaces, even perfect ones if unchanged over time tend to "look dated" and that reduces the desirability for the unwashed masses.
There's a reason Google and MS, and everyone else actually "invests" in redesigning everything every 6 months. It's reflected on their profit statements, and programmers, well they just do providing their monthly paycheck keeps being deposited.
Re: Enough with reinventing the wheel. (Score:2)
From a usability perspective the UI of Windoes 2000 or XP in classic mode was the best, then it started to feel like a bad LSD trip.
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I'd settle on them just.. leaving me alone and not forcing updates down my throat.
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Why do car companies redesign the looks of their cars every so often?
The only people who want to drive a car that looks like a "classic" is a classic car enthusiast. They want this not because the "classic" cars were better somehow, but because of nostalgia. And before you insist that they were better back then, you're not looking at facts. In terms of safety, reliability, durability, and fuel economy, today's cars are far superior.
But we're really talking about looks here. You may like the old look, but mo
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I guess when they said "Inclusive For Everyone*", they didn't mean you.
* For sufficiently loose definitions of "everyone"
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I guess when they said "Inclusive For Everyone*", they didn't mean you.
* For sufficiently loose definitions of "everyone"
From their video, "everyone" is tightened up to include tap dancing fans.
Yet lacking compared to 28 years ago (Score:5, Informative)
And yet it'll still have less options than Windows 3.1 for GUI color customization. Pretty fucked up that the "colors" setting is just a choice of contrast (light and dark) and a single color used for accent. Can't even change the stupid bright white window title bar non-focused color, that is a huge source of eye strain when using dark mode in a dark room, without having resort to weird registry hacks.
Need to bring back the full color customization options that Windows used to have from 3.1 through XP. Cause since Vista it's all been piss poor choices. Well in terms of Windows 10 basically no choices at all.
Re:Yet lacking compared to 28 years ago (Score:4, Interesting)
Not to mention the invisible window borders. And that god-awful transparency shit. And the assinine "out of focus" effects. Windows up to WIndows XP had a *fantastically* better interface, it was destroyed by the Fisher-Price look in XP and has just continued to get more and more unuseable with every iteration since Windows 2000.
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You can turn literally all of that shit off through Windows 7. All of the animation, all of the transparency, etc.
Re:Yet lacking compared to 28 years ago (Score:5, Insightful)
Not to mention the invisible window borders.
^^^ THIS.
The flat UI with invisible borders is horrendous, and the subtle "active" versus "inactive" window differense make it so you can't find the edge of various windows that overlap or are closely stacked. Windows 10 visual design SUCKS.
They give you a 1-pixel wide border which can be super frustrating to grab. Why the hell won't they let people change that?
Why don't they just offer a Windows 7 theme? It would take a lot of the pain out of the bloated abortion that's called Windows 10.
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They give you a 1-pixel wide border which can be super frustrating to grab. Why the hell won't they let people change that?
Actually the border grab is dynamic. Depending which side of the window you grab you don't need to be within the pixel. If you use a finger or a touch pad you have a shitton of leeway as well. Just don't tell MS's marketing department or I'm sure they're going to advertise it as "AI assisted border resizing" :-)
The bigger problem with flat UIs is that there's no indication if an app has a re-sizable border or not.
Re:Yet lacking compared to 28 years ago (Score:5, Interesting)
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Not to mention the invisible window borders.
That is the real pain of Win10 UI! MOD parent up.
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It's really easy to turn off those transparency effects, there's literally a switch that says "Transparency Effects" On/Off.
Re:Yet lacking compared to 28 years ago (Score:4, Insightful)
You can still customize everything in Vista and 7 if you choose classic mode.
You still can't customize everything in XP if you don't, unless you use theming which is a bigger PITA.
Windows went off the rails in 8. 7 was the last good version.
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In Windows 8 you can change all the window colours. It's actually got an auto mode that looks at your wallpaper colour and which works quite well. The windows decent borders and enough contrast on the controls.
It was only with Windows 10 that they reduced the usability and customizability.
Re:Yet lacking compared to 28 years ago (Score:4, Insightful)
It's astounding to me just how limited the customization options are in Windows 10. It's as if the 'designers' (if you can even call them that) all decided to say "Fuck you!" to the users and just give them the finger.
How is it that Windows 7 was more customizable than Windows 10? It makes no sense at all.
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It's because Windows 10 redesigned a lot of the UI to make it properly DPI independent. High DPI screens were becoming common and the old Windows UI just didn't scale well.
So they made the new Windows 10 UI but just didn't bother bringing it up to feature parity with the old one.
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And yet, even back in the Windows 3.1 days, many applications simply ignored your GUI color customization choices. It only worked if the programmers chose to create their application respecting your color choices.
Worse, many applications, only implemented _parts_ of their applications respecting your color choices, making them a hodgepodge of color themes.
I think you are nostalgic for a past that never really existed.
Good God, Microsoft (Score:5, Interesting)
Just give me a decent Windows 7 - like UI, remove the advertising ID, let me manage my updates, cut the telemitry, and let me create a non-Microsoft account without having to unplug my network.
Come to think of it, just reissue Windows 7 and call it Windows 10 v2009 (2020-09).
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10/10 Would actually consider using this.
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So, can't you just disable the updates service like with win7 and earlier OSes? Maybe check task manager for OS updating tasks.
waste of screen space (Score:4, Interesting)
What a giant waste of screen space. I almost always just search for what I want anyway, rather than scroll through the useless menu. The need to go for less not more.
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So what you're saying is that you will never see it, never use it, and thus we should disregard your comment? This is precisely the reason why UIs get crap. People with legitimate complaints straight away point out that they will never interact with it.
Get off my lawn (Score:5, Interesting)
Maybe I'm old and crotchety, or perhaps I've just had to deal with users for too long, but for once I'd like someone to be proud of UIX work because it actually streamlines how people use their product.
Just once I'd like to hear someone say ( unironically ), "We analyzed how long these common tasks took, and then looked for ways to streamline them"...and then...you know...did it.
But NOPE. These assholes at MS are proud of what the icons look like, meanwhile putting shit all over the place making it a nightmare to relearn to use and support.
If anyone from MS UIX are reading this; you are the only ones who care about your pretty colors. Normal users and admins dread new versions because you fucks screw everything up...and then when we've finally figured out your shroom-induced "design", you go and change it again.
Re: Get off my lawn (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: Get off my lawn (Score:4, Interesting)
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Re:Get off my lawn (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe I'm old and crotchety, or perhaps I've just had to deal with users for too long, but for once I'd like someone to be proud of UIX work because it actually streamlines how people use their product.
Just once I'd like to hear someone say ( unironically ), "We analyzed how long these common tasks took, and then looked for ways to streamline them"...and then...you know...did it.
But NOPE. These assholes at MS are proud of what the icons look like, meanwhile putting shit all over the place making it a nightmare to relearn to use and support.
If anyone from MS UIX are reading this; you are the only ones who care about your pretty colors. Normal users and admins dread new versions because you fucks screw everything up...and then when we've finally figured out your shroom-induced "design", you go and change it again.
That is one great advantage that all Mac OSes have: Much more UI stability over time.
Sure there have been slowly-evolving changes; but 2019 macOS 10.15 Catalina has more in common, UI-wise, with 1984 Mac OS System 1.0 (and if you want to go even further back, with 1983 LisaOS) than 2018 Windows 10 has in common with 2009 Windows 7. And those non-commonalities add-up to User frustration.
Honestly, who needs a new UI every frickin' whipstitch? What is so wrong with a multiple, independent, overlapping-windows and Drop-down and Contextual Menus-interface?
Say what you will; but I can sit a person who hasn't touched or seen a Mac since 1984 (or at least 1987) in front of the Finder in macOS Catalina, in about an hour (probably less), they will be pretty much at home. Same multiple windows, same Menu bar, same Folder Heirarchy, very similar Get and Put File dialogs, same (or very similar) Selections in at least the File and Edit menus of nearly every single Application.
Conversely, sit someone who used Windows 7 (let alone Windows 3.1) in front of a Windows 10 "Desktop", and they will hardly know what to do...
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Totally agreed. Some additional remarks:
- The colors weren't pretty to begin with.
- Removing all colors from all icons also removed an entire dimension of extra information we could glean from them. Not that icons are so great to begin with, mostly they are just learned symbols (rather than intuitive symbols). I've occasionally wondered if we should just get rid of all of them and just replace them by Chinese characters. That's also a picture you'll have to learn, but at least you learn another language whi
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Just once I'd like to hear someone say ( unironically ), "We analyzed how long these common tasks took, and then looked for ways to streamline them"...and then...you know...did it.
Guess what, that's how the Metro interface in Windows 8 got created. No I'm not kidding. There was a full 1 hour technical presentation on the analysis of mouse cursor movements, interactions with menus, selection of applications which were opened. MS put a shitton of technical analysis into Metro with the goal of streamlining user interaction.
In the presentation they even pointed out the reduction in clicks, the increase in relevant density of information relative to where the cursor was (bottom left) the
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It's a blocky mess. It sucks as much as its predecessor Active Desktop did and for exactly the same reasons. And then there's the fact that it is fragile.
Re:Get off my lawn (Score:5, Insightful)
"They added the ability to simply type when it was open to turn it into search, which greatly sped me up."
That was from Vista. When the menu is opened the cursor is in the search box.
"Then they made the right click options a lot more useful (system, device manager, apps and features... all with a right click)."
That stuff is all available in the start menu from Vista. The apps are in the start menu. Device manager is in computer management, which you get from right clicking computer and selecting manage from the menu.
"So to sum up windows 10 start menu is pretty much the best iteration out there. The out-of-box tile experience it defaults to is shit and marketing is blocking users from using it properly."
So to recap, you think that the Windows 10 menu is the best because it has the stuff they introduced in Vista, even though "the out-of-box tile experience it defaults to is shit and marketing is blocking users from using it properly"
WTF
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"That was from Vista. When the menu is opened the cursor is in the search box."
It started in Vista yes. I wasn't planning on splitting hairs since most people skipped Vista or have blocked all memory of it and think win7 is the cats meow.
"That stuff is all available in the start menu from Vista."
"Device manager is in computer management, which you get from right clicking computer and selecting manage from the menu."
So left click start, right click computer, left click manage, then under systems tools, select the device manager branch...
vs
right click start menu, left click device manager.
That my friend is what we call "streamlining common tasks".
So to recap, you think that the Windows 10 menu is the best because it has the stuff they introduced in Vista, even though "the out-of-box tile experience it defaults to is shit and marketing is blocking users from using it properly"
Yes. Certain features were in vista, but they generally got progressively better. (Except Win8's start screen.)
Vista wa
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Win 7 is the cat's meow as far as Windows UI goes. It has minor improvements over Vista without anything being made worse. And it's on a version of the OS that uses drastically less memory. Windows 7 will be remembered as Windows' peak, barring Microsoft finally making Windows Linux-based.
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That's what everyone said about XP. History repeats itself.
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When the menu is opened the cursor is in the search box.
Indeed and it was improved in Windows 7 and improved again in Windows 8, then fucked up in Windows 10 but there's hope they can stop giving bing results here.
"Then they made the right click options a lot more useful (system, device manager, apps and features... all with a right click)."
That stuff is all available in the start menu from Vista.
I'm going to assume you have no idea what the GP was talking about because that was definitely not a feature in Windows Vista, 7 or 8.
"the out-of-box tile experience it defaults to is shit and marketing is blocking users from using it properly"
Both you and the GP are wrong. The Windows 10 start menu is definitely not "the best", and at the same time it is doing nothing to block users from using it properly.
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A lot of what you mentioned was what made me switch to Linux (Mint).
It's not perfect, but it's a hell of a lot better than Windows 10.
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I don't know why this was modded flamebait. It's obviously not and is in fact largely correct.
The Windows 10 start menu has two things going for it. First the tiles. The animated shit is stupid but the primary way normal people organize their apps is with tiles. On Windows they had icons on the desktop, on mobile they have icons on the home screen. The main problem with it is that people don't know how to use it, how to get icons on there, because Microsoft is really bad at making things intuitive.
Then ther
Maybe they'll Fix the autorun.inf Functionality (Score:2)
Things like setting the Label and Icon for a thumb drive/SD card/removable USB drive.
Maybe they will plug the security issues without nerfing features some of us use regularly.
I miss the larger User Icon on the Start Menu!
Personally, I miss the customization that they removed from the OS after XP: Boot Screen, Start Sound, Icon and Cursor Choices, Screensaver and Wallpaper changing.
Yes, I know most of those things are still there, but not all and I miss the Control I had as a User to make my system truly Mi
Wow (Score:2)
Wow, new icons and different pointer sizes. Will Microsoft ever stop innovating?
FFS, this is what makes them jizz in their panties- redesigned icons and new pointers? Have we hit the wall in terms of advancements, or what?
How about we make a trade. (Score:2)
Let's see if they survive the first day. Seems fair to me.
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> after we change the "control interface" on their cars
2 cars: a Tesla and a Ford. The mental whiplash is real my friend.
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Nissan actually did that. They invented "one pedal mode" for the Leaf. When you left off the accelerator the car applies some braking force and will actually come to a complete stop eventually. Thus aside from emergency braking you only need to use that one pedal to drive the car.
It has to be togged on every time you start the car to help avoid mode confusion. It works very well and is easy to get used to, and some other manufacturers have copied it now.
No more tablet crap (Score:2)
Just so long as they don't default to a fucking tablet interface ever again...
this is not "windows 10" (Score:2)
this is just the default shell
change the default shell executable in the registry to cmd.exe or whatever terminal emulator you want and be happy
The Emperors 'New Clothes' (Score:2, Troll)
Someone inside Microsoft world really needs to make the top people read that parable.
Then add a dose of 'Fiddling while Rome burns' and you get a clear picture of what MS is doing today.
They don't and AFAIK, have never listened to the real wishes on the mass of their borg members. They just foist a UI on us. Then they sit back and laugh. A few years down the line it is rinse and repeat.
I'm done with Microsoft.
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Someone inside Microsoft world really needs to make the top people read that parable.
Then add a dose of 'Fiddling while Rome burns' and you get a clear picture of what MS is doing today.
Then you add the profit and loss statements of MS and Google and you'll get a clear picture of *why* companies rearrange deckchairs constantly.
You may not like it, but it makes money. You shouldn't be complaining about MS, you should be complaining about users who keep using their software, and maybe also the nerds who block telemetry which skews the data MS collects towards catering for the typical idiot.
Stop and let developers catch up! (Score:3)
The Windows 10 UI is mismatched as it is, Notepad and Photos and Office and Dynamics and Edge all use different UI elements and have a different UX. Now they are charging things yet again? Microsoft doesn't even have all of their own apps up to date. Third parties don't even know what to target anymore and so they build their own custom UI. Everything in Windows is mismatched and MS's constant fiddling and reimagining means developers will never catch up.
Hitting 1 billion? (Score:2)
When do we get to hit back?
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What will break now?
Your spirit.
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Amen to that. It would be the best thing to happen to the computer industry. Actually, it should kill ALL the UI designers and web developers. That would be a major boon to the planet. But we should make sure that we keep some of the virus at hand in case the JavaScript kiddies come back again and they need to be killed too.
Re: I like Microsoft and Bill. (Score:2)