Should the US Military Be Recruiting On Twitch? (theverge.com) 160
The U.S. military has for years been using streaming channels and video gaming to recruit people. "Several branches of the military -- with the exception of the Marines -- have had esports teams since 2018," reports The Verge. "And according to Military.com, the Army's esports efforts alone generated 3,500 recruiting leads in fiscal year 2019."
But the question is... should they be recruiting on these platforms? According to Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-NY), the answer is no. She is proposing an amendment that would ban the U.S. military from recruiting on Twitch. The Verge reports: "Children should not be targeted in general for many marketing purposes in addition to military service. Right now, currently, children on platforms such as Twitch are bombarded with banner ads linked to recruitment signup forms that can be submitted by children as young as 12 years old," Ocasio-Cortez said on the House floor Thursday. "These are not education outreach programs for the military."
Last week, the Army paused its use of Twitch for recruitment after its channel was criticized for banning viewers who asked about war crimes. The Army told GameSpot: "The team has paused streaming to review internal policies and procedures, as well as all platform-specific policies, to ensure those participating in the space are clear before streaming resumes." And earlier this month, Twitch told the Army to stop sharing phony prize giveaways on its channel that promised an Xbox Elite Series 2 controller, only for users to be directed to a recruitment page when they clicked through. The language of Ocasio-Cortez's draft would make that pause permanent, banning US military organizations from using funds to "maintain a presence on Twitch.com or any video game, e-sports, or live-streaming platform." You can watch the congresswoman's impassioned floor speech here.
But the question is... should they be recruiting on these platforms? According to Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-NY), the answer is no. She is proposing an amendment that would ban the U.S. military from recruiting on Twitch. The Verge reports: "Children should not be targeted in general for many marketing purposes in addition to military service. Right now, currently, children on platforms such as Twitch are bombarded with banner ads linked to recruitment signup forms that can be submitted by children as young as 12 years old," Ocasio-Cortez said on the House floor Thursday. "These are not education outreach programs for the military."
Last week, the Army paused its use of Twitch for recruitment after its channel was criticized for banning viewers who asked about war crimes. The Army told GameSpot: "The team has paused streaming to review internal policies and procedures, as well as all platform-specific policies, to ensure those participating in the space are clear before streaming resumes." And earlier this month, Twitch told the Army to stop sharing phony prize giveaways on its channel that promised an Xbox Elite Series 2 controller, only for users to be directed to a recruitment page when they clicked through. The language of Ocasio-Cortez's draft would make that pause permanent, banning US military organizations from using funds to "maintain a presence on Twitch.com or any video game, e-sports, or live-streaming platform." You can watch the congresswoman's impassioned floor speech here.
I don't see a problem (Score:3, Insightful)
Most kids could use a few years in the military ( marines specifically ), but beyond that I don't really see the problem. If they're interested, they can pursue it throughout highschool. If not, they won't.
There are far worse things for kids to feel pressured into.
Ah yes (Score:3, Insightful)
It's not limited to their demographic, but discipline and personal accountability are sorely lacking in our country's youth, and being an instrument of death for a national army sounds a bit extreme as a fix... but hell, they're playing first person shooter games and GTA anyway, so they might as well learn the honor part.
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Coming from a country with compulsory subscription (Israel), I can tell you that we're not especially respectful to each other because of it. Hell, I think that one of the main lessons the army teaches you is that if somebody is not above you in rank or from the same unit as you, you can shit on him.
Re: Ah yes (Score:2)
My experiences with Israelis in the U.S. makes so much more sense now.
Re: Ah yes (Score:2)
If you want discipline and personal accountability, sports work just as well. There's no magic pill that makes someone a better person/worker as soon as they put on a military uniform. It has to be trained into them, and there are plenty of other ways to get that same kind of training.
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They [Young People] have exalted notions, because they have not been humbled by life or learned its necessary limitations; moreover, their hopeful disposition makes them think themselves equal to great things -- and that means having exalted notions. They would always rather do noble deeds than useful ones: Their lives are regulated more by moral feeling than by reasoning -- all their mistakes are in the direction of doing things excessively and vehemently. They overdo everything -- they love too much, hate too much, and the same with everything else.
- Aristotle, around 340 BC
Boo hiss (Score:3, Insightful)
The military is not evil. It is an honorable profession. Treating as something to shield kids from is bonkers. Hide it from your own kids if you feel that way (and that's okay if you do) but don't make it a general thing as it's not. If it's really that way then we should not even have it.
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Agreed. Sorry that didn't come through better in my original post.
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I was actually agreeing with you too. my headline was referring to the article.
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There is one problem... (Score:2)
Re:Boo hiss (Score:5, Insightful)
The US military is an honorable* profession.
*According to the US military.
Re:Boo hiss (Score:5, Insightful)
The military is an ugly thing. It is made to kill and destroy. It could be an honorable profession if it is strictly defensive. The US military is not. The US has never had to defend itself from any invasion but has focused entirely on dominating the world. Well, at least when it worked. Now it's more a trillion dollar business. No wonder there are career opportunities in a business that size.
There are plenty of people in the military who want to be honorable and who will grab any opportunity to do so. I'm absolutely convinced by that. But that means they are also fully committed to believe the propaganda about what they are doing because otherwise how are they going to live with themselves? How is any drone operator (ok that is usually CIA) playing their videogames all over the world supposed to live with himself or herself? By buying into a good cover story.
Ask the Afghanistan vets if they think the US military is honorable.
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Well it is important to be able to live with oneself.
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The US has never had to defend itself from any invasion
Pearl Harbor.
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Pearl Harbor is on Hawaii. It was a one-off strike, not an invasion. It was also perfectly avoidable and it was merely the first hit in a war the US was desperate to get involved in. The policy makers that is, not the population.
If you want deterrence you rely on tit-for-tat, not on 'we goad you into making the first move and then we don't stop until we conquered you completely.'
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Pearl Harbor is on Hawaii. It was a one-off strike, not an invasion.
How about the Japanese landing troops on the Aleutian Islands, which are part of Alaska?
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I dunno, maybe they got lost? Look, Japan , like Germany, knew it did not stand a chance against the US. The best they could hope for is a good first strike and then negotiate a truce to keep the US at bay. For them the US was a very real threat. The opposite was very different.
There is a famous memo [wikipedia.org] which captured the US position pretty well. It is only an advisory but it is very sensible and it is hard to see how FDR would think any differently if he had a minimum of competence. (there is a lot of denial
Re: Boo hiss (Score:2)
Can we get the Canadians to come back and burn the WH down again while the president is inside?
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Q. What do you call someone who murders 160 people?
A. Depends on who is paying them!
* If your government then a war hero,
* If the enemy government then a terrorist,
* If no one then a psychopath serial killer.
Re: Boo hiss (Score:2)
What if you are taking contracts from anonymous sources on the Internet?
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It's part of propaganda that everything gets a new name. isolationism is withdrawal. I don't even know if anyone supports that. A defensive military is not withdrawal. For the rest it is hard to say whether you're attempting parody.
I agree that racism and isolationism can go together. Racism puts the dampers on expansion because it includes all these 'others' into your territory. Germany did not want to conquer the world. It just wanted a large and pure Germany, even if it had to kill all the 'others' in it
Re: Boo hiss (Score:2)
If you think Iran would invade Israel, you don't understand the military capabilities of those two nations.
It's possible Iran would try to build a coalition with Egypt and Jordan, but they all have their own disagreements there, and Egypt has drifted towards a good working relationship for some time.
The whole Palestine problem is too tiresome for anyone but the Israelis and Palestinians to care about very much. The rhetoric of occupation is largely used to undermine American influence in the Middle East.
It'
Re:Boo hiss (Score:4, Insightful)
The problem is that if you join up some idiot might send you off to a pointless war and then abandon you when you come back with PTSD and one leg.
Too often the military (in many countries, not just the US) relies on young people having poor prospects and being desperate to learn skills or avoid poverty. It should be a desirable job with excellent benefits and after-service care where needed, but it's not.
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- You can conquer a place, loot its resources, turn it into a market for your agriculture products. A lot of people benefit at home. Is it pointless?
- You can go to war for the benefit of a wealthy minority. You protect your warriors well so the harm to them is minimal , and this minimizes the resistance at home. Some people come back with PTSD but not that much. If you look at the history of war the harm to US soldiers is negligeable really. You can automate more , put people on remote controls and reduce
Re: Boo hiss (Score:2)
4.3% of drone pilots come back with PTSD. They're not in any real danger. Protecting the bodies of troops does little to keep them safe from PTSD.
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The military is not evil. It is an honorable profession. Treating as something to shield kids from is bonkers.
The military as an institution is not evil and neither is the profession. That doesn't mean that it necessarily is a positive development for someone. Patriotism and unquestioning faith in leadership are not necessarily good qualities to instill, plus as a country that is already somewhat madly violent against one another it's probably good less people are trained in lethal tactics.
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Having been a soldier, the last thing I wanted to deal with was the guy next to me who didn't want to be there. Screw that guy, he's gonna get me killed.
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Optimally you want to have universal conscription that is actually universal and not too long. Male and female. And it wouldn't have to be military, meaningful civil service should be an alternative, adjusted for time spent (greater in civil service as civil service is generally easier).
Something that countries like Switzerland, Finland and Israel have, but optimally with genuine equality of sexes behind it as well. It helps to fuse society together, because when kids of millionnaires and kids of poor alcoh
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Argh, undoing accidental mod.
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It's not like ROTC was a really bad thing either. Exposing children to the idea of military service is okay with me.
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Except kids (and many adults) have a severely romanticized view of the military and war. You would have a difficult time finding a veteran willing to answer the question "How many people have you killed" with a straight face.
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Because for starters, most people who actually served as combat troops have not a faintest clue. Which was true since we gave up melee weapons for ranged ones. Turns out its really hard to judge if you killed someone or not at fifty metres out in WW1, much less at today's ranges. Did that guy you saw through a scope get hit, or hear a bullet whistle past him and dive into the ground? Did that guy you seemingly hit get lightly wounded, heavily wounded or killed? Did that plane that got hit and started emitti
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There are far worse things for kids to feel pressured into.
There are also better things than pressuring kids into a training program devoted to the unquestioning faith of authority and patriotism. I think the USA has enough of a mad flag flying mentality.
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PS of all the US military services, I would probably lean to the US Coastguard, as the best one to go for https://www.uscg.mil/ [uscg.mil], I can not imagine Cortez could complain about their recruiting and likely they would be quite selective in their choices, a bit of competition to get in.
Re:I don't see a problem (Score:4, Insightful)
The military offers tons of different opportunities and training. Beyond being a grunt foot soldier, there are many technical and trade skill positions all that give training for real jobs outside the military. On top of that, there is the GI Bill to help with college when you get out. Or you can go the ROTC route to get a degree and then serve afterwards. For a lot of youth with poor grades and little opportunity for good jobs after high school, the military offers an alternative to a fast food cashier career. A much better one.
Yes, there are veterans who do not fit the work force after the military. They likely would not have without the military either. People without ambition or work ethic will fail no matter what path they take. Those that embrace the discipline and structure are highly valued in the private sector.
It's comical that a big government proponent such as AOC is against one of the most basic functions of any government.
Re:I don't see a problem (Score:5, Insightful)
Not sure why you got modded down, you are spot on.
One thing you didn't touch on is that vets help vets; if you spend 10 years in then go looking for a private sector job, and you find a business run by a vet, that's a huge leg up. It's like going to the bosses alma mater.
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I love getting those resumes. Tells me a lot about their work ethic, if nothing else ( although I usually can gleen plenty beyond that ).
You do seem to have it out for vets.
Re:I don't see a problem (Score:5, Insightful)
Why is it though that you have to join the military to get that kind of training? Why can't it be offered without the possibility of having to fight in a war?
It sounds like you are saying that the military is just making up for poor schooling and lack of opportunities.
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Sorry, but military strength is literally the measuring stick for a nation's power. A nation that is enlightened and rich with no or a weak military can easily just have that taken by a country with a strong military.
Maintaining our military strength is and should be our #1 priority. If your plan calls for taking fund from the military to pay for something, then you need to come up with a different way to pay for it or drop the idea.
As to recruiting people that "want to be soldiers" - most people don't WA
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School is free, right?
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A certain amount of it, yes. All citizens of the US receive a K through 12 education at the collective expense of society. Those who wish to go to additional classes beyond that (college/university), must pay either out of pocket or through some type of grant, scholarship, or loan.
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Tell me when "Awarded a Purple Heart" is a requirement for recruiters.
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Re: I don't see a problem (Score:2)
It's not a policy that acts against any function of government.
If the military started putting recruitment ads on Saturday morning cartoons, wtf do you think would happen?
This is about targeting children with ads that are inappropriate to their age level. Shit we do as a matter of course.
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My father dropped out of college after two years. He enlisted in the Navy for four years. Then he went back to college and graduated. Because of his military experience in electronics and his college degree, IBM hired him soon after he graduated. 1956 was a good year to start at IBM. He retired after 30 years.
Re:I don't see a problem (Score:4, Insightful)
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If you're rich, you may have a point, for rich kids, the military is good for you only if you're an idiot.
For people that aren't middle class however, their kids can go to college for free while they join the military for a few years, it's also a lot easier to get hired if you make it to officer, their leadership and team skills are great for a start in middle-level management, but even if you remain low on the ranks, you're now considered within the equal opportunity hiring for larger corporations.
Since ed
Re: I don't see a problem (Score:2)
There may be more cost effective ways of providing free access to college than running what is, in global terms, a rather large military.
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In global terms, I certainly want a rather large military. The military is our ultimate "stay out of our territory" force if diplomacy fails. I don't want to be merely average, or even close to it. I'm quite happy to have the largest military in the world.
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Of course the military can recruit using whatever platform they wish.
Of course they can. She was asking should they.
To which the answer of course is: Cannon fodder must be harvested wherever they might be.
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You're an ignorant idiot. You think the US should be fully militarized - have YOU gone in to the military, or just played war games online.
You would appear to think all problems should be solved militarily. Just like, as I read, the Japanese did on the run-up to WWII, not whether they should start a war.
We threw them off college campuses in the sixties. They need to be off social media, now.
Since you have no clues, Mr. Missing Cortex, they will LIE about everything to get the kids in, from who they are to w
Re: I don't see a problem (Score:2)
Yes, they can.
That's why AOC is proposing legislation.
I don't personally take issue with targeting recruitment at kids, but I can absolutely see how that would be a problem to lots of people. With all the other rules around kids on the Internet, it would probably be more consistent to disallow it than to allow it.
Re: I don't see a problem (Score:2)
I don't understand the animosity against this woman from the news media and the Right. She is ONE person in a democratically elected & governed house of 435 folks. She has an education in international relations which is far more applicable than an MBA or UG in Law most of the Reps have.
But the biggest point is that she does a much better job representing her district than most of the House. Far better than my state's reps. She won against a 10 term Democratic incumbent by a landslide! And to remove
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Re: I don't see a problem (Score:2)
Very unlikely she will be the Democratic nominee any time soon, if at all. She is 30 right now. She won't be 35 (the minimum age to be president) until literally less than a month before the 2024 election takes place. Her following is nowhere near strong enough to get the Dems to run the youngest presidential candidate in modern history.
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Considering the way she was selected (a literal committee of election specialists specifically fielded for purpose of selecting a handful of candidates of highest potential) and how successful she is in getting her ideas out in spite of being at the bottom of the political ladder as the freshman in US House of Representatives, there's zero chance that she's stupid or crazy.
She's left's version of Trump. A brilliant political mind, that understands that political image is a flexible tool that needs to be dir
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She spews standard lefty talking points. She's not brilliant - she's an idiot. Remember, this is the woman who was proud that Amazon wouldn't be coming to New York with a tax break because now New York could spend those billions on something else. She literally doesn't understand how a tax break works - she thought it was money that New York was taking from others to give to Amazon. She possibly has an average IQ, but probably a few points under.
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If she was "spewing standard lefty talking points", she wouldn't get anything even remotely like the amount of attention she's getting today. She'd be getting the same amount of attention as every other talking head "spewing standard lefty talking points".
How many other talking heads "spewing standard lefty talking points" are you talking about? By your own admission, those are the same points, hence "standard". Why is it that her saying those "standard" points gets so much attention, and everyone else gets
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If she was "spewing standard lefty talking points", she wouldn't get anything even remotely like the amount of attention she's getting today. She'd be getting the same amount of attention as every other talking head "spewing standard lefty talking points".
It's like you don't know anything about TV and media.
She's young, pretty, scrappy, and most of all a visible minority, which makes for great TV. And DC is a town that lives and breathes the media. So she fights far outside her weight class. I guarantee that behind the scenes, the DNC would absolutely love to shut her up, or at least put a leash on her. But the DNC is lashed together with the media, so they have to play along.
A talent that allows her to easily eclipse even the most egregious mistakes she makes,
Yeah, you really don't know anything about the media.
We're still talking about Dan
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It is interesting that her talent has blinded you as well, because you are typing out things such as "She's young, pretty, scrappy, and most of all a visible minority, which makes for great TV" with full seriousness, as if this is somehow a rare trait. When one look at TV today tells you that it's an exceedingly common trait. Why is it that in the sea of those that share that trait, there's a single noticeable outlier and that is her?
One of aspects of her talent is to convince her opponents that her success
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Can you imagine someone with that kind of a strength of personality accepting being a puppet for any meaningfully long period of time?
I can't. It would be against the very core of their methods. People who puppeteer require a very specific mindset based on predictability of actions. And folks like Trump and Ocasio-Cortez, they are nothing if unpredictable. Unpredictability is a core aspect of their strategy. It's what makes their actions look insane to those that aren't the target group of each specific mes
Yvan Eht Nioj (Score:2, Funny)
Yvan Eht Nioj
What's the Problem? (Score:5, Insightful)
Mod Up Please (Score:5, Interesting)
Amen to that. My dad came from a poor family and the education the military got him led him to a very affluent position in the private sector after serving 20 years (He was a reasonably successful management consultant after leaving the military for those who want to assume he was a tool of the military industrial establishment). There are absolutely down sides to serving of course but the fact is that the US military offers a lot of good to people who don't have it by inheritance.
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Just because nobody had a problem with advertising to children in 80s/90s(?) UK doesn't mean it's not actually an issue. And of course the ads are deceptive, you're not going to be fighting dragons with a sword [youtube.com] but either sitting at a desk somewhere, blowing up weddings, or getting blown up by IEDs. Kids are dumb as fuck and wouldn't know what they're getting into or how it contributes to the bigger picture.
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Same here... In fact, to this day I remember some of the recruitment slogans from when I was a little kid like: "It's not just a job. It's an adventure.". We also had movies like Top Gun and cartoons like GI Joe which were, in retrospect, very obviously made to glorify the military and lead people towards a career there; an activity which continued on for years into shows such as J.A.G. and Stargate SG-1. But really? If someone's so weak-willed as to choose their career based on a movie, TV series, or
I guess (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: I guess (Score:4, Insightful)
I guess you should stop the US military from recruiting if you think the military is just a bunch of baby killers.
Yes, or better yet do something about how our military is used so that they don't have such an image. Seeing as how that's kind of exactly her fucking job.
They've been at it since 2002, sky didn't fall. (Score:5, Informative)
Video game outreach from the US Army started in 2002 with the release of the free America's Army game. The kids are fine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
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Video game outreach from the US Army started in 2002 with the release of the free America's Army game. The kids are fine.
I didn't see any problem with the idea of military recruiting on Twitch until I followed your logic.
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The kids are fine.
Based on what? On a daily basis we have people telling us how fucked up the incoming generation is. Clearly they played too much Americas Army and should have spent more time getting high on magic mushrooms and jumping on turtles.
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The kids are now cops who are trained shoot anyone on sight because they are trained to avoid the hypothetical scenario where a citizen might draw a gun fast as lightning and shoot them between the eyes? The US is not alright.
Whatever it takes... (Score:2)
Whatever it takes to sabotage US military...
Of course, it comes from, like, literally, you know, the dumbest of the Congressmen...
ROTC [wikipedia.org] does not count, eh? Or is she simply unaware of it?
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Thank you for confirming, what the real goal here is.
That's irrelevant. The point was, there are "education outreach programs for the military", contrary to what the former — and future — bartender is claiming.
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No there are not. Point to the law and the verse, mi.
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According to Wikipedia [wikipedia.org], the first legal act establishing (what is now known as) ROTC-program was the Morrill Act [wikipedia.org] of 1862 (7 U.S.C. 301). Followed up by Morrill Act of 1890 (26 Stat. 417, 7 U.S.C. 321). The relevant verse of the Act is Section 4 (emphasis mine):
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Doesn't say anything about educational outreach. It has to say "educational outreach" in "the law." That's what you've been saying elsewhere, so that must be what applies here.
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No, I was not. You're really quite pathetic now...
Twitch is an advertising platform, right? (Score:2)
So let people advertise!
Of course the bait and switch shouldn't be allowed, but regular ads? Why not?
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We have an all volunteer force (Score:2)
AOC is in the camp that there should be no recruiting. Not on Twitch is just one facet. But take away those recruiting tools that target teens and you'll have to bring back the draft. Is that the way to go?
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maybe, but.... probably not (Score:2)
Yeah.... that just isn't going to work on Twitch. Fro
Why not! there is going to be (Score:2)
Well until we run out of gamers then we'll have to turn everything over to AI and hope it's ready
Yes. (Score:2)
There... that was easy.
Hey! Psssst! Yeah you! (Score:2)
With the green hair and the cloud of potsmoke. Like shooters? Blowing shit up? Killing badguys? Have I got a deal for you.
Check this out dude, not only can we get you out of you moms basement, but we actually pay you to live here. No rent. No shit. Sounds pretty good right? It gets better- Momsie gonna be all proud, and your town will call you a hero. You're like 18 or so right? Yeah, chicks dig this uniform, smokes and booze are cheaper on base, and if you end up in the clink on a Sunday morning you just m
And the difference between Twitch and football is? (Score:2)
With not being either pro or against on recruiting on Twitch, and since I'm not American, I have the following genuine question...
What is the difference in recruiting on Twitch, and the US armed forces advertising at football games (see https://the-cauldron.com/the-nfl-is-one-giant-military-recruitment-tool-ae28276185e4 [the-cauldron.com] ?
Is the demographic of Twitch that much different than football?
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American football watchers as an average are 20 years older than e-sport watchers; with the average age of e-sport watchers being inthe 28-32 age range. For twitch users specific it tends to be age 18-30s which are the majority so twitch age group looks to be the lower than the average e-sport goer.
Yes, it absolutely should. (Score:2, Troll)
It's a disappointment that we aren't just ignoring this garbage.
The military has to go where the prospects are.
Military service shouldn't be considered lightly (Score:2)
Can't believe it (Score:2)