New Toyotas Will Upload Data To AWS To Help Create Custom Insurance Premiums Based On Driver Behavior (theregister.com) 206
KindMind shares a report from The Register: Toyota has expanded its collaboration with Amazon Web Services in ways that will see many of its models upload performance data into the Amazonian cloud to expand the services the auto-maker offers to drivers and fleet owners. [...] Toyota reckons the data could turn into "new contextual services such as car share, rideshare, full-service lease, and new corporate and consumer services such as proactive vehicle maintenance notifications and driving behavior-based insurance."
The two companies say their joint efforts "will help build a foundation for streamlined and secure data sharing throughout the company and accelerate its move toward CASE (Connected, Autonomous/Automated, Shared and Electric) mobility technologies." Neither party has specified just which bits of the AWS cloud Toyota will take for a spin but it seems sensible to suggest the auto-maker is going to need lots of storage and analytics capabilities, making AWS S3 and Kinesis likely candidates for a test drive. Whatever Toyota uses, prepare for privacy ponderings because while cheaper car insurance sounds lovely, having an insurer source driving data from a manufacturer has plenty of potential pitfalls.
The two companies say their joint efforts "will help build a foundation for streamlined and secure data sharing throughout the company and accelerate its move toward CASE (Connected, Autonomous/Automated, Shared and Electric) mobility technologies." Neither party has specified just which bits of the AWS cloud Toyota will take for a spin but it seems sensible to suggest the auto-maker is going to need lots of storage and analytics capabilities, making AWS S3 and Kinesis likely candidates for a test drive. Whatever Toyota uses, prepare for privacy ponderings because while cheaper car insurance sounds lovely, having an insurer source driving data from a manufacturer has plenty of potential pitfalls.
Uploading vehicle data... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Uploading vehicle data... (Score:5, Insightful)
For private ownership I agree.
For fleet ownership - both corp and rental? That could easily become a desired feature.
The trick is stopping insurance companies (or government) from forcing private owners to use it for "safety purposes"
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There is already profiling in the insurance industry based on perception of risk. Where I live now I pay more even though I had more incidents where I used to live, because the insurance industry judges the demographics to be more risky.
What all these monitoring boxes miss is the actual skill of driver and the safety of the car. The bigge
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This is a good reason to not buy a Toyota?
Lol, as a long-time Toyota owner, far bigger in my eyes was their all-in on hybrid technology and falling massively behind on BEVs. The next generation of cars are 100% BEV, and Toyota won't be competing there.
I fully expect that my current car will be my last Toyota, because I can't see buying a non-BEV in the future. I'm slowly saving up the cash for putting a couple of level 2 chargers in the garage, and once those go in, Toyota is off the list of potential brand
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tesla is starting to look interesting
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https://www.lamag.com/citythin... [lamag.com]
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/2... [cnbc.com]
https://www.thedrive.com/news/... [thedrive.com]
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It's not that they fell behind, so much as that they made an attempt with glaring flaws that everyone pointed out made the entire product a horrific mistake, and instead of fixing the flaws, they abandoned the whole project.
The RAV4 EV was an amazing car to drive. I test drove one, and I almost bough
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No. The real trick is making it fake good driving habits while maintaining plausible deniability so that you can't be charged with insurance fraud. It might be a simple as a little tinfoil around the antenna. They told us we were crazy, but all we have to do is put our hats on top of it. Problem solved.
$15-$20/meg data roaming fees! (Score:2)
$15-$20/meg data roaming fees!
Toyota software are total BS (Score:5, Interesting)
Has an owner of a "Toyota Prius Prime 2020 Upgrade" I can tell you that every piece of software and design in this car are a piece of cr.p.
Everything from cruise control to the gaz pedal have bug on it.
In my car, even the radio turner have bugs on it.
The GPS have a normal error of 50 to 500 meters. When I use, my phone GPS, under the dash, it have better positioning that the onboard GPS that have its antenna is on the top of the car.
So Toyota announcing another app, that will put my car in the other street usualy in a opposite one way where I am, built a lot of fear in me.
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I will add that this is the worst car I ever had. and I'm over 50 YO and drive since 16YO and get to drive over 60 differents car (mine, GF, children)
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Then you should have know better. Did you test drive it?
I will never buy a hybrid of any kind, worst of all worlds. Not a good gas car, not a good electric car - a combination of compromised crap. If you want to go electric then do that, if you want to go gas then do that. Hybrid is not a good option and doesn't help the environment even if you use less gasoline. The sooner auto manufacturers kill hybrids the better.
Re: Toyota software are total BS (Score:2)
I was going to buy one but opted out when I heard about the standard software. I went for another used placeholder car. The ancient philosophers talked about a nexus of ethics, beauty and wisdom/knowledge. You will have tracking info sold to sleaze (unethical) which will come with incompetence in design and disfunction, and it will make an ugly driving experience you hate. The 3 always come, or go, together.
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Why didn't you pay slightly more upfront and get a Tesla Model 3? Over the long term you will save money, when you consider the savings from gas and miscellaneous other stuff. Not to mention that a two or three year old Model 3 sells for almost the same as a 2020. It appears resale value appears stays high.
Re:Toyota software are total BS (Score:5, Interesting)
On my part, because I could buy 2-3 cheap Toyotas for the cost of a BEV. And because I will need a service panel upgrade and a long run to the garage for level 2 chargers, I'm looking at something like $5k-$7k to upgrade the electrical for BEVs.
Toyota hybrids will pull 40-60 mpg, and with gas prices as low as they are and have been, the math just didn't work out for me last year. It was close, however. Closer than it ever has been.
On top of that, the wait on a Toyota is measured in hours, and the wait on Teslas is often measured in weeks to months. Way more expensive, way harder to get, and the math still doesn't quite work out.
YMMV, as a lot will depend on your local cost of electricity and fuel, whether or not you need expensive electrical upgrades to support BEV charging, etc. It just doesn't work out for everyone at this point in time. And to be honest, the upfront cost is a lot of it. I'm excited to see what the used market for BEVs looks like in another 5-10 years. I think that's when it's going to be idiotic to buy another petrol vehicle. A 5-10 year old BEV at that point is going to have another 5-10 years of life with minimal maintenance costs. That's going to be hard to beat.
Unless, as you point out, the used market is so competitive that they don't lose much value. And that's quite possible.
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Why didn't you pay slightly more upfront and get a Tesla Model 3
I can't speak for the GP, but as far as I'm concerned I won't ever buy a Model 3 because of the stupendously bad interior design. The whole concept of having all controls on the center screen, so that you need to turn your head to see even the speedometer is beyond brain dead (not surprisingly, HUD displays for Teslas sell quite well - and AFAIK, but also not surprisingly, Tesla doesn't offer HUD as a actory option even on the top of the range model 3 version).
The fact that have to use a touch screen with n
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I actually do find it surprising that Tesla isn't putting HUD in their cars. It's getting moderately common now, and it looks seriously cool and really gives that "we're in the future now" feeling in a way that a big screen doesn't any more. Even pickup trucks are coming with big LCD screens, although they do have physical buttons and switches around the screen so you don't have to use it for everything.
brakes.sys has stopped working to reboot hold in s (Score:2)
brakes.sys has stopped working to reboot hold in start for 10 sec.
WARNING: Lexus Too (Score:5, Informative)
I just bought a 2020 NX 300. I never purchase new vehicles due to the instant depreciation, but I wanted a model that had Android Auto because the stock infotainment system in the vehicle is probably the worst I've seen. I was honestly embarrased for Lexus.
HOWEVER, living in a cold-weather climate, I wanted remote start. The sales guy said it had remote start. I mean, how could it not. A 2015 Honda Civic came with remote start, certainly a 2020 Lexus would have that. The answer is...not really. It has it installed, but you have to purchase the Toyota/Lexus version of OnStart called Enform in order for the remote start to work. They disable it otherwise. If you read the TOS of Enform, they can track your vehicle 24/7. They have access to all kinds of data that they sell to third parties. They claimed they would not sell it to insurance companies, and based on this article, it doesn't appear that will last long. They have a nice web site indicating how precious they think your data is an how much they will protect it. PUH-LEEZ! Target couldn't do it, Home Depot couldn't do it, Equifax couldn't do it, the freaking NSA can't do it. No Enform, you can't do it either.
I know a Lexus isn't a "luxury" brand in the same way a Mercedes is or Jaguar, but I really didn't expect to be treated like that. To have a basic function like remote start held hostage just to a make a few bucks on selling my data, is kind of low-end behavior. I would have gladly paid extra for them to turn on remote start without Enform.
I won't ever buy another Toyota or Lexus and I will always warn people away from those brands, hence the click-baity subject. If I'm being honest with myself, the car really is kind of mediocre anyway, but I got 0% financing for the duration of the payments so...free car loan.
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My older RAV4 is actually a decent little ride, especially for the price.
I must have missed the 'virtue signaling' stuff. Was that an optional dealer package?
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My older RAV4 is actually a decent little ride, especially for the price.
I must have missed the 'virtue signaling' stuff. Was that an optional dealer package?
No, it's only available on hybrids and PEVs as a free upgrade.
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YESSSSSSSSSS! (Score:5, Funny)
Yesssssss! I was hoping to find another way for some soulless corporation to slurp up my data!
Finally, the few private, quiet moments I get in my car will now be fully monitored. What a time to be alive.
Thank you, Toyota, you guys are awesome!
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Meh. Insurance companies are already implementing this bullshit in certain ways. If you have certain kids of insurance you either have to agree to install a company provided tracking device in the vehicle, or they charge you a "reckless driver" fee. Except, they don't call it that. They call it a discount for allowing them to gather data. But if you take off too quickly for a stop, or stop too quickly when that jackass that always pulls out right in front of you gets a little closer than normal one mor
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while cheaper car insurance sounds lovely ....
Hands up anyone who believes this will result in cheaper insurance!
However, one can imagine the ultimate form of insurance - revising you premium as you drive and taking it without delay via your Direct Debit arrangement. So when the car cameras see you are about to reverse into a wall and break a tail light, the software will have taken enough extra premium to cover the repair cost a millisecond before you actually hit. And if it sees you careering at 70mph towards a stretch limo full of celeb
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Hands up anyone who believes this will result in cheaper insurance!
I switched from Geico to Metromile (they use a monitoring device) and my premiums went down from $250 a month to $90.
And if you're wondering, I have a spotless record (no accidents or insurance claims) with just one speeding ticket 5 years ago.
Re: YESSSSSSSSSS! (Score:2)
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Oh, nonsense. They don't take away your discount for individual events like that. If they did there would be no point to the program. They take away your discount for patterns of events.
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Also, insurance is a contract, with an annual renewable option.
They agree to insure you against liability for {events}, in return for {amount}.
The terms and conditions of that contract can only be changed with the consent of both parties, so read your contract, and don't accept any terms that allow the company to change it on the fly.
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There are major issues with those trackers. For example "heavy acceleration" in a car with a 1.0 litre engine when you live at the top of a hill is pretty common because you have to floor the accelerator in 1st gear just to get it up there.
The GPS can be janky too. Lots of issues with it thinking you are on the wrong road when you have two near to each other with different speed limits. One day you get a letter saying your insurance was cancelled because you keep doing 60 in a 30 zone because the 60 road is
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So don't buy your insurance from the greedy profit driven companies. Buy it from a company that benefits you.
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I'd like them to find an ODBC port on my daily driver.
That'd be tricky. OBD-2 ports, on the other hand, have been around for close to 25 years.
Looks like no Toyota (Score:3)
Sorry, if every so often I rev the engine a bit higher than normal or push the car a bit more as I go through some winding roads in my area, that doesn't mean my insurance should go up, or that anyone else needs to know.
It's bad enough I even have to pay for insurance considering my driving record (zero accidents in decades). To have some nebulous corporation colluding with my insurance company to force me to hand over even more money is just not going to happen.
Re: Looks like no Toyota (Score:4, Insightful)
To be fair, if you want to have fun in a car, Toyota probably is not the best choice.
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I was kidding but I do think Supras are inelegant machines. Unless you're talking about the ones that still haven't been imported yet—I have yet to be in one (and I don't really count the Z4s). The only Toyota I found appealing to drive was a MR2. They are fun, but very much a toy.
Re: Looks like no Toyota (Score:2)
The s2000 was super fun car. Excellent engineering too.
The new Supra is too full of electronic help and turned out not to be that fast.
Let's not forget however that Lexus won 'the worst car in the history of the world' top gear challenge.
If I had the money I'd get a driver's car. Of which there are two. Nissan GTR and Mclaren Senna. The second is unobtainable though so GTR it is then...
When will they also start uploading sleep habits? (Score:2)
Micromanaging peoples lives is the endgame. Feel free yet?
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Jihadis on Hilux (Score:2)
Will it be available for Toyotas Hiluxes ? Jihadis and guerillas of all sorts are quite fond of that vehicle. I wonder what their premiums would look like ?
Re: Jihadis on Hilux (Score:4)
They just get uploaded to Allah by a laser guided bomb.
Obligatory... (Score:5, Insightful)
'It was terribly dangerous to let your thoughts wander when you were in a public place or within range of a telescreen. The smallest thing could give you away.
-George Orwell, 1984
Internet (Score:2, Insightful)
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"Why would anyone let their car connect to the internet?"
Because it can automatically update your status to "driving".
C'mon! We're all rich (Score:2)
Hire a chauffeur
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Track walkability https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] statistics. It likely will become a bigger thing in the future, electric vehicles, creating cleaner cities, which will focus population because easier walkability access to all required resources, employment and entertainment, avoiding those electric vehicles and the hassles with insurance companies.
No more carparks in retail open to the skies, all built over and likely always capped off with town houses or apartments, built in customers and residents with
Remember that next-gen GT86 I was thinking about? (Score:2)
Hey Toyota, remember that next-gen Hachiroku I was thinking about getting when you get around to releasing it in the next 2 or 3 years?
Well, I'm not even gonna look at it now. Not only did you forget how to make sports cars and had to get in bed with Subaru (GT86) and BMW (the alleged "Supra") but now your cars will snoop on us and rat us out when we have a bit of fun?
I'll just get another Miata, the new one, that engine is delicious!
Mazda at last has never stopped making sports cars, and remembers that li
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Don't be silly, Supra's fine. Not that you should change up.
Toyota reckons (Score:2)
that this will let somebody, somewhere, charge more, and blame it on the driver's irresponsible behavior (of buying a Toyota) rather than their own greed.
Surveillance capitalism (Score:5, Interesting)
Coming fast. in car data can be monetized by many clients, insurance being a big one.
As a first step they can see when you're speeding and they can see how many evasions and brusque braking manoevers you do. They can make your cost of insurance depend on you adapting your driving style and route.
Your insurance can run the detailed data through algorithms that should be able to detect whether you've been drinking, or whether your mental capabilities are degrading with old age. They can adapt the cost before you even are aware you are developing a problem.
Everything you do iwth the car can be sold off and monetized.
I have a simple, consumer friendly solution (Score:4, Funny)
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A Faraday cage around the transmitter would be far better - don't break something or potentially hit resale value (some people might think that it is a good idea).
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A Faraday cage around the transmitter would be far better - don't break something or potentially hit resale value (some people might think that it is a good idea).
More to the point, who pays for the data service? Not me, nor would I let the car link with my phone for that. Will Toyota also be building paid-for cell service into their cars too? Somehow I doubt it.
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It will upload recorded data when it see the open access point as you are stopped the light next to the Starbucks.
Great, now the car can get owned using random access points. I'll stick with Honda, even though new ones come with key-less ignition (which I hate) and no options to revert to an ignition key. Hopefully, I can keep driving my 2001 Civic (120k miles) and 2002 CR-V (56k miles) until I die.
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Dummy load on the antenna.
what? me worry? (Score:2)
So long as insurance polices which use that information are consumer opt-in, the consumer in informed of the policy, and the vehicle abstracts up specifics such as location and time into innocuous statistics such as acceleration and speed and discards the raw values, before uploading to the cloud, then I don't see a privacy issue here. Like transmitting raw GPS coordinates would be very bad in that way but median braking distance does not really feel like a signifcant privacy violation.
On the other hand,
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Yeah, this service will be opt-in - base cost of insurance will go up, but if you opt-in you can get your old price back...
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Yeah, this service will be opt-in - base cost of insurance will go up, but if you opt-in you can get your old price back...
Which will then immediately increase well past the cost without the privacy violation. Then if you opt out again, your cost will go up yet again!
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Oh great, another surveillance machine (Score:2)
That information will be available to anyone who can persuade AWS to give it up - such as any US law enforcement or spy agency.
This insurance idea will only be used to further shrink the risk pool for insurance and to make you pay more.
If I wanted a vehicle with total surveillance, I'd already have a Tesla.
So? (Score:2)
If you dob't like the terms of the contract don't sign it? This is like Epic being mad at Apple for enforcing terms of the contract they agreed to. My personal choice would be to not buy a Toyota unless I was getting something I found useful in return like maybe active accident avoidance systems (which Toyota is at least 10 to 20 years away from acheiving).
What!?! (Score:2)
There are other choices (Score:2)
More data mining? (Score:2)
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No fucking way (Score:2)
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Clear privacy violation. You MUST have the ability to turn it off.
Yeah OK, Product. Whatever you say. Like you have a choice.
- Greed
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Where is your cellular connection now, hmm?
I don't even want to own a vehicle that has all that extra shit in it anyway. *SNIP*
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*wirecutters* *SNIP* *soldering iron* *50-ohm resistor* *soldering* Where is your cellular connection now, hmm?
(EVERY Insurance Company) - "I'm sorry, but you are attempting to register a vehicle with the SafeStream safety feature disabled or undetectable. Your vehicle is not authorized for use on public roads per DOT mandate due to lack of a consistent SafeStream signal. Attempting to insure an unauthorized vehicle is a felony."
Where's your 4th-grade hacker idea now, hmm? Like you're going to defeat the Insurance Industrial Complex with that childish *SNIP* shit.
I don't even want to own a vehicle that has all that extra shit in it anyway. *SNIP*
No one does. You won't have a choice, Product.
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OnStar will do this unless you stop it (Score:2)
A couple of the parameters it tabulates are excessive acceleration and hard braking, both indicative of bad driver behavior, but the fact is what it tabulates in both parameters is ridiculous. I am over 70 and by no means a jack rabbit starter nor a hard braker. I am very mild in my driving habits, if for no other reason than gas mileage. But the system decided my "acceleration" and "braking" were "excessive" until I turned the damn thing off. Of course they SAID they would not turn this into the insurance
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Of course this was going to happen (Score:2)
Fully optional.
Now, it will be just built into the car.
No thanks.
I just bought not a Toyota last week (Score:5, Insightful)
I love Toyotas, but not any more. Too much electronic crap. (We bought a Subaru, instead.)
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now people's cars are spying (Score:2)
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on the owners, this will be cracked and hacked, or somebody will find a way to block the signal like cutting wires or putting a tin can over the sharkfin antenna
Yes, and car insurance companies will find a way to not insure you if they don't get the data stream. Oh, you'll just find another insurance company? ALL of them won't insure you without the factory "vehicle safety" stream, which will become a DOT mandate.
Yeah. They can do that. And will.
Oh, and seriously? Cut the wire? You really think you're going to outwit the Insurance Industrial Complex with that shit? Took me all of 10 seconds to think of how the industry will respond in kind. Better luck nex
share = sell (Score:2)
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One of the many reasons I have never owned a "smart" phone, and never will. (Plus, I don't want to constantly be holding a microwave transmitter up against my brain.)
This is just the logical development of the way tech is going. Today FaceBook (may they be cursed) announced that you will need to log in to a FB account to use Oculus VR headsets.
They're all collecting whatever data they can about you, whenever they can, and selling it to whoever will pay.
The only solution is to cut back on your tech addiction
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Highway taxes (Score:2)
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This looks like a slick way for them to charge taxes on a per mile basis making reporting required.
My 40 year old truck has an annoying habit of blowing the fuse connecting any after-market telematic modules. And I don't have a smart phone. If road tax by GPS is just an option, no problem. But if states try to force the issue, they will lose.
As some have pointed out in another thread [slashdot.org], disabling location data may be necessary for those working in secure areas. I live in an region with numerous such facilities. And if it comes down to the state saying they need the data for taxes vs the DoD says they can'
The most secure and protected tranactions... (Score:2)
...are ones that never happen. This release sounds like Toyota considers it a fait accompli that driving data WILL be harvested and it's only a concern if it's leaked to the wrong people ( firms not paying Toyota).
When you enter your dealership ask WHY your car vendor needs to extract this AT ALL.
Is my car going to incriminate me? (Score:4, Insightful)
I wonder how long it will take bedore law enforcement starts eyeing off this large data collection and using it to issue speeding fines and parking fines?
Helping customers? (Score:2)
Extending the surveillance state is always portrayed as a service (Now you can see exactly where you were on that day last week!) or a safety feature for the subjects of the surveillance (Now when your can crashes, the police will know immediately and be able to find you in time to save your life!). In fact, it is just another intrusion into our privacy. I am sure insurance companies will love this (How many miles did you say you drove last year, Mr Jones? And you never break the speed limit?) and use it
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"I will not buy an automobile with all of this electronic crap in it, monitoring my every move and phoning home to God knows who all the time. "
Then you will not buy an automobile (at least a new one), because it will first a) become standard on all vehicles and then b) required by law.
I have a 2007 Toyota Tacoma that I love. It is the rock-bottom-of-the-line model. No power windows. Manual transmission. Nothing extra to break. A radio that has knobs to control it, so you don't have to take your eyes off th
New joke opening line: (Score:3)
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... the bartender sez to the privacy raper "what'll it be?" "I'll have a DataMiner, with a shot of Violation on the side".
Bartender sez to the car maker "how about you pal?" "I'll have what he's having"...
You are the product. (Score:3)
Toyota is taking Facebook’s business model and applying it the motor vehicle and driver.
You are the product.
Can we get a Toyota for free then? (Score:2)
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No, you may get a discount on your insurance though.
If it's Opt in then sure. (Score:2)
I already opt in to such a service, and why wouldn't I. It's great not having to subside shit drivers' insurance with my own premiums. Since opting into a service with my own insurance company my premiums have been 30EUR/month lower, and not being an impatient shitbag that feels the need to drive 20 over the limit at every opportunity means I only have to gain from this information being shared.
Now my ex roommate who has already had his license suspended twice... probably shouldn't opt in to this.
Recently Got rid of a RAV4 (Score:2)
We needed something this size when we got it but don't now so we got a, 5 door, BMW Series 1. Not an EV but the next car probably will be. Whilst the BMW is far from a small car, it is less bloated than the Rav. It's shorter, narrower and, most importantly, lower than it's predecessor. I think the range is marginally shorter but still twice what I need. When we replace the other car with an electric, 200 miles will be way over what is needed. I don't see many with less than 100 now and many of those a