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Communications Cellphones

'At This Point, 5G is a Bad Joke' (computerworld.com) 199

An anonymous reader shared this skeptical opinion piece from Computerworld: Let's start with the name itself. There is no single "5G." There are, in fact, three different varieties, with very different kinds of performance... But, what most people want, what most people lust for is 1Gbps speeds with less than 10 milliseconds of latency... [T]o get that kind of speed you must have mmWave 5G — and it comes with a lot of caveats.

First, it has a range, at best, of 150 meters. If you're driving, that means, until 5G base stations are everywhere, you're going to be losing your high-speed signal a lot. Practically speaking, for the next few years, if you're on the move, you're not going to be seeing high-speed 5G. And, even if you are in range of a 5G base station, anything — and I mean anything — can block its high-frequency signal. Window glass, for instance, can stop it dead. So, you could have a 5G transceiver literally on your street corner and not be able to get a good signal. How bad is this? NTT DoCoMo, Japan's top mobile phone service provider, is working on a new kind of window glass, just so their mmWave 5G will work. I don't know about you, but I don't want to shell out a few grand to replace my windows just to get my phone to work.

Let's say, though, that you've got a 5G phone and you're sure you can get 5G service — what kind of performance can you really expect? According to Washington Post tech columnist Geoffrey A. Fowler, you can expect to see a "diddly squat" 5G performance... ["roughly the same as on 4G LTE," while some places "actually have been slower."] It wasn't just him, since he lives in that technology backwater known as the San Francisco bay area. He checked with several national firms tracking 5G performance. They found that all three major U.S. telecom networks' 5G isn't that much faster than 4G. Indeed, OpenSignal reports that U.S. 5G users saw an average speed of 33.4Mbps. Better than 4G, yes, but not "Wow! This is great!" speeds most people seem to be dreaming of. It's also, I might add, much worse than any other country using 5G, with the exception of the United Kingdom.

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'At This Point, 5G is a Bad Joke'

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  • by Dutch Gun ( 899105 ) on Saturday September 19, 2020 @07:57PM (#60522774)

    I've heard their 5G infrastructure is blazing fast. Did I misunderstand?

    • by Patent Lover ( 779809 ) on Saturday September 19, 2020 @08:02PM (#60522784)
      Just blazing.
    • I think the point of the short range 1Gbps stuff is to serve a massive number of people in a small space, like a stadium, without a complete collapse of performance. (Of course with Covid there currently ARE no crowds...)

      Can't see why any one phone would want 1 Gbps, but maybe somebody will show me up on that.

      • I can't see why somebody would imagine that they'd be using it in a car. With a range of 150m, even if there are base stations "everywhere" you're not going to be moving from cell to cell that fast, with your data transactions moving transparently with you, without either a lot of latency, or a lot of lost network connections. Think about the network load for moving all those connections around and re-transmitting all the lost packets.

        • Yeah. I'm thinking, rush hour foot traffic in a train station in China/Japan/Singapore.

          I mean good lord

          https://www.standard.co.uk/new... [standard.co.uk]

        • Some of the promotional material that seemed to be circulating in the media a while back was talking about connected devices that would use 5G to communicate directly with each other as well as the broader 'net. In the context of cars, I remember there was a diagram showing some sort of autonomous vehicles that were using roadside beacons to navigate but also using inter-vehicle communications to maintain efficient spacing and respond to emergencies.

          Because obviously what you want to rely on to keep you saf

      • by rtb61 ( 674572 )

        5G it to control and monitor you at all times, with internet appliance. Don't bother with a router and wires you control, we can control all your devices for you, from 5G, your front door, your back door, you airconditioner, you fridge, your microwave, your TVs, your radio's, your phones, you computers, your game console, ALL OURS FUCKER, 'er', all connected directly to 5G, no wiring, no router, that's all too hard, let us to it for you and no hard disk drive, use ours, we will scan and delete all unwanted

        • why the fuck would you change the windows, just an an antennae outside that connects to an antennae inside.

          The 5G Covid-crowd going to go totally ape on that one...

          "I gotta replace my Covid-resistant windows with new non-Covid-resistant ones?"

      • I think the point of the short range 1Gbps stuff is to serve a massive number of people in a small space, like a stadium, without a complete collapse of performance. (Of course with Covid there currently ARE no crowds...)

        Can't see why any one phone would want 1 Gbps, but maybe somebody will show me up on that.

        Such scenario can be served a lot better with wifi. When there are massive number of people, the bottleneck is always the celltower / router, not the wireless technology part. Gigabit wifi is useful. Gigabit wifi that can serve thousands and thousands of people is useful. Gigabit wifi that connect to 10Gbps internet is useful. Gigabit 5G that is still data-capped is not.

        Even if they say 5G tower can better handle crowded scenes, telecoms history give me no faith that they won't underbuild and oversell ag

        • You never get a speeding ticket in computing, ever. However, this is about a race between terrestrial vs sat.

          Look overhead to see the new data stars in the sky that are competing for your entertainment money. Do you want that cool handheld entertainment in your living room or as you walk? Do you want one with low latency, or one with tens of thousands of links that aren't hampered by your location and the distance to a cell tower?

          5G is a battle with the sats, wired cable, DSL, and fiber. If you don't like t

        • by amorsen ( 7485 )

          When there are massive number of people, the bottleneck is always the celltower / router, not the wireless technology part.

          Err, no? When you are out of wireless bandwidth, you are out of wireless bandwidth and there isn't much you can do about it. Backhaul is comparably trivial.

        • So we make the next version of WIFI with automatic handover to the next base station, and build out free WIFI in all the high population density parts of the country. People can use 4G for everywhere else.
      • One of the benefits of this is the cellular providers can now provide ISP services. I worked at Verizon when they rolled out their 5g network, and I believe I saw that there were places they were offering ISP services over cellular networks.

        This is, once they get past the LOS limits of 5g mmw.

        Another example is where you need LAN speeds on a wireless network. There's a "city" where they test driverless cars. They need the LAN speeds there, but since the cars are mobile, it has to work on wireless.
      • by ceoyoyo ( 59147 )

        I must have 1 Gbps, especially while driving! Because, uh, reasons. That don't involve looking at the screen.

    • by Rick Schumann ( 4662797 ) on Saturday September 19, 2020 @09:14PM (#60522920) Journal

      I've heard their 5G infrastructure is blazing, fast.

      Fixed that for you, you were missing the comma.

      • Man, my joke totally missed. Too subtle? Well, I set you guys up as the straight man. You're welcome.

    • If my area is typical, we don't have much 5G infrastructure, because people keep destroying it to prevent the aliens who secretly control our government from giving them cancer and reading their minds.

      • You're reading the conspiracy theories wrongly.

        The deep-state aliens are secretly reading our minds to give us cancer, and the 5G infrastructure enables the government stop the aliens. So the aliens are destroying the 5G infrastructure and now the government's fighting the anti-5G aliens.

        Do keep up.
        • Sorry, my bad. It's hard to keep track of anything when there's so much EM radiation coming from all the devices in my house. Someone told me the other day that even my lights are emitting it! I'm afraid we're all doomed.

    • by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

      It did get burned pretty fast by "coronavirus is caused by 5G" types, yes.

  • by ArchieBunker ( 132337 ) on Saturday September 19, 2020 @07:59PM (#60522782)

    The first version of a new technology is slow and power hungry? You're shitting me! Brick phones used to have an hour of battery time but tech improved and here we are.

    • It'll be interesting to see how they solve the "stopped by glass" problem
    • Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)

      by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Saturday September 19, 2020 @09:51PM (#60523022)
      Comment removed based on user account deletion
      • I was surprised it went to great effort to point out how you might lose the super fast connection while driving. Well.. duh? If you're driving, you don't need the internet (and neither does your car). Your passengers can manage to survive without it too for brief instances; give the kids a book. If you're a commuter on mass transit, they'll give you wifi in some other way, but it's far better to just take it easy than try to work while commuting, sheesh.

        • Well.. duh? If you're driving, you don't need the internet (and neither does your car).

          If you're walking you or away from your desk you don't need internet either. - Your post contexualised in 1990s terms.

          Funny thin is your post is so shortsighted that you don't seem to realise that cars have required and benefitted from communication systems before we even got the idea of throwing a SIM card in them.

        • by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

          Being able to work while commuting on a train (which is going to be faster than your car in most circumstances) is a norm in much of the world today.

          But it's often limited by spotty connectivity. Fixing this would be a great asset to work efficiency.

      • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        It's not so much that your phone can get 1 Gbps, it's that 100 phones in an area can all get a usable 10Mbps. And not just phones, mobile broadband adapters are being sold as an alternative to a fixed line for use at home.

    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      Brick phones had no competition, there was no other way to make mobile phone calls so they were considerably better than nothing.

      In 2020 we already have 4G and WiFi so 5G better be pretty spectacular if it wants to be desirable, a reason to upgrade your phone or switch carrier.

      • by amorsen ( 7485 )

        5G doesn't have to be pretty spectacular. Phones get replaced on about a 3 year basis, so we are about 4 years away from near-total 5G handset domination.

        And yes, someone will chime in how much they love their 900MHz-only Nokia 2110. They are in luck, 2G is likely to stay alive in Europe significantly longer than 3G. It might beat 4G too.

        If 5G isn't noticeably worse than 4G, it will automatically win.

  • news at 11. Seriously at this point 5G is what every wireless technology was at their comparable points. Get over it.

    • Comment removed based on user account deletion
      • Yes, but how are you going to get around the laws of physics?

        They don't need to, they have Murphy's Law to blame when they fail.

      • by EABinGA ( 253382 )

        Yes, but how are you going to get around the laws of physics?

        Exactly, the limits are not in the encoding scheme or technology, but in the bandwidth available.As long as 5G runs in the same bandwidth as 4G, don't expect miracles.

        See Shannon's Law. Good explanation can be found here: https://www.waveform.com/blogs... [waveform.com]

        • by amorsen ( 7485 )

          The major point of 5G is to avoid Shannon's Law by doing massive MIMO. 4G doesn't support that. 5G is going to be feel like a miracle for festivals, stadiums and dense cities. It will pretty cool at 700MHz for rural areas too. Suburbs and smaller towns are fine with 4G.

      • by thegarbz ( 1787294 ) on Sunday September 20, 2020 @04:13AM (#60523494)

        What law of physics needs to be gotten around? Are you one of those people who thinks 5G = high frequencies? If you are, please go and read up on the technology, what is is, what it does, how it works, and the several hundred changes that have been introduced that themselves have nothing to do with the air interface.

    • Yeah, I was just thinking, "I've read this story before...." About 4G, about 3G
  • A while ago I tried to do a hotspot at home. I saw good speed outside, but inside it was sub MB range. I was within a kilometer of one tower, a couple kilometers of two others. Officially I should have have speed of a few MB per second, in reality the usefulness was way oversold. I know ATT got in trouble for advertising 5G. I don't know how Verizon gets away with it's ad, which basically implies that 5G is available in select cities, but is really on in select neighborhoods. We are seeing improvement,
  • by williamyf ( 227051 ) on Saturday September 19, 2020 @08:21PM (#60522830)

    Like South Korea or Japan, and see 5G in all its glory.

    More seriously: The article shows a complete lack of technicall understanding from the author. Saying that 5G is three standards depending on the frequency is like saying that GSM was 5 standards because there are implementations in 450Mhz, 800Mhz, 900Mhz, 1800Mhz and 1900Mhz. No, in GSM (and indeed in all cellular standards) the signanling, framing, etc is done in the same way, no matter which frequency the operator happens to use. Besides, 5G is called 5G because is the ONLY 5G standard worldwide. In 4G we had 2 standards, in 3G he had 3, and 3 standards also in 2G.

    And this also neglects other benefits that 5G brings to the table, both for users (network slicing, improved latencies), operators (new markets, possibility to have more users attached to a single tower), or industry (autonomous freight trucks, edge computing).

    So no, 5G is no joke, is simply in its early stages, wait and see.

    * In terms of Telecoms. The USoA is a developed country allright, but in terms of telecoms in general, and Cellular in particular, you guys are middle of the pack at best.

    • How is 5G in Israel? Aren't they the world leaders, or at least the most invested in this technology, co-operating with China?

      • I'm not sure what you think you're talking about, but Israel is about as late to the party as a country can get. Hell they only auctioned off the spectrum for 5G *last month*!

    • * In terms of Telecoms. The USoA is a developed country alright, but in terms of telecoms in general, and Cellular in particular, you guys are middle of the pack at best.

      For bottom of the pack, see "Canada".

      • Forgot to add our carriers moto: "Yesterday's technology at tomorrow's prices!"

        • Forgot to add our carriers moto: "Yesterday's technology at tomorrow's prices!"

          Mod parent up as funny. while I do not live in the USoA, I see a lot of media from there. And what you say is true.

        • by 1s44c ( 552956 )

          I see complaints about low bandwidth in the US all the time on slashdot. I have few problems with bandwidth, cost, or reliability in Europe.

          It's like shared infrastructure is built in Europe but derided as 'Marxist' in the US.

          • Americans have a "lone wolf" mentality, "if you need help it's because you're weak", "only communists share resources", etc.

      • * In terms of Telecoms. The USoA is a developed country alright, but in terms of telecoms in general, and Cellular in particular, you guys are middle of the pack at best.

        For bottom of the pack, see "Canada".

        I live in Venezuela. You telecoms "plight" is just 1st world problems. You get no simpathy from me. ;-) :-P

    • So no, 5G is no joke, is simply in its early stages, wait and see.

      There better be obvious benefits soon, or 5G's claims will enter Quantum Computing promises territory...

  • I was, and still am, skeptical from its promises and premises from the start. However everyone voted my posts down on here. What happened?

    • It was probably because of your tone, not your content.
    • Because Marketing promised the moon, and delivered 100-Base-T from 1998 (or there abouts).

      https://dilbert.com/strip/1999... [dilbert.com]

    • I was, and still am, skeptical from its promises and premises from the start. However everyone voted my posts down on here. What happened?

      What makes you think it's cool? Blatant ignorance is constantly voted down, just like it is now. Your skepticism is sharing good company with all the other people who dis on 5G without having a clue what they are even talking about or what the technology is about.

  • If/when driving, what exactly are you requiring 1Gbit sub-10ms connectivity for? What is the non-completely-tiny-niche use case?

    • Real time upload of video from self driving cars maybe?

    • by Gabest ( 852807 )

      Maybe you could share it with 100 other people to get 10mbit for each of you, you selfish "it's only me" prick!

    • You are not. Your car may. Why does everyone think that 5G is about some person with their phone and internet connection? You are literally not at all the target market for 5G. Nearly all of the upgrades 5G brings over 4G benefits IoT applications, high density applications, time sensitive applications, broadcasting / multicasting applications, or public safety applications just to name a few.

      Not everything is about *you* as a common consumer.

  • What were people expecting? New Physics that can help put electromagnetic field theory on its head? A breakthrough in information theory that would allow communication at rates higher that Shannon's theorem allows? Whoever is complaining is just ignorant.

  • by DontBeAMoran ( 4843879 ) on Saturday September 19, 2020 @11:06PM (#60523118)

    Anything more than 1G feels kinda heavy.

  • Remember 4G LTE? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Ryzilynt ( 3492885 ) on Saturday September 19, 2020 @11:49PM (#60523184)

    Now remember the first flat screen TV's.

    All the sudden everyone was buying a new TV and the TV manufacturers where delighted and amazed.

    They stopped making box TVs and started making flat TV's.

    Then everyone had a flat TV and sales tricked off again. Then they tried a whole shit load of gimmicks , better resolution, LED, backlit LED.

    Then they tried the "curved" display. Because no one had one of those , surely it would work.

    Todays 5G is a like a curved TV. Sure it might be optimal in some applications but for now it's a gimmick.

    I have no complaints about my current 4G LTE service. Or my non-curved TV.

    • by hjf ( 703092 )

      Remember when 4G LTE was going to be the end-all be-all? the LONG TERM evolution?
      How long did it last? about 6-7 years in real world deployments.
      We were supposed to be able to stream movies, upload photos at blazing speeds, and browse the internet much faster due to lower latency.

      And yet, here we are. WiFi is still around because Unlimited Data for phones doesn't really mean Unlimited Data after you've finished streaming your first movie on netflix.

      Now we're supposed to believe 5G has "industrial" uses and

  • Not speed. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by markdavis ( 642305 ) on Sunday September 20, 2020 @12:10AM (#60523208)

    >"But, what most people want, what most people lust for is 1Gbps speeds "

    No, that couldn't be more wrong. Very few people want or expect 1Gps. What we want is not even 1/10th that speed, but:

    1) Reliable- where we actually get real 10, 25, or 50Mbs continuously. Not 1Gps for 2ms every now and then, and 1Mbs the rest of the time.

    2) With range and coverage- where we actually STAY connected with reasonable speed, regardless of where we are.

    3) With reasonable power requirements- where we don't drain our battery in just a few hours.

    Super blazing speed that only works in one square block and only outside, without moving, and without anyone else on the network, is useless.

    • by dohzer ( 867770 )

      I'll take 1Gbps speeds when such speeds don't cost 1Gdps and throttle my connection within seconds.

  • by johnw ( 3725 ) on Sunday September 20, 2020 @12:49AM (#60523242)

    what most people want, what most people lust for is 1Gbps speeds with less than 10 milliseconds of latency...

    Really? Who are these "most people"? What are they planning to do with this startling performance?

    What most people really want is just a stable connection providing reliable performance. As with home broadband, anything above about 40 Mbps is not going to be noticed. For what one actually does with a phone, 10 Mbps is ample.

    • My mobile only gets used for text. That needs bugger all bandwidth, but it does need signal strength. If I were to design a mobile radio device just for text, it would need so little bandwidth that I could crank up the sensitivity, and probably get all the way from Birmingham, England to Sydney, Australia in one hop. Radio amateurs have been doing this narrowband text stuff for years.

  • Can someone explain why I should care about 1 Gbps on a mobile device? It just seems so pointless.

    5Mbps should be able to comfortably stream HD video whilst doing background app updates at the same time. I already get more than 20 Mbps with 4G.

  • 4G was a joke at the start too. Let the the early adopters pay through the nose for crap service and wait a few years for the situation to improve.
  • Phones are getting bigger. Today, you can see only a handful of smartphone models in the market that are considered "compact", for people with smaller hands or which are suitable for one-handed use.
    What is "compact" today was the norm a few years ago, and what was "compact" then is no longer available.

    One contributing reason for this is 5G. It requires more power, and bigger batteries.
    5G is still novel, so not all new phones are 5G phones, but you can't have a product-line where products with this fancy new

  • by taylorius ( 221419 ) on Sunday September 20, 2020 @06:01AM (#60523658) Homepage

    I'll say it's bad - what with the CIA hijacking the bandwidth for mind control and the signal teleporting Covid into people's ears, there's barely enough bytes left for a simple website.

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