Microsoft Will Start Force Upgrading Windows 10 For Some Users (theredmondcloud.com) 232
Ammalgam shares a report from The Redmond Cloud: Starting this month, Microsoft will begin forcing some users to upgrade to Windows 10 version 1909 or version 2004 if they don't update their PC manually. This is coming after Microsoft announced that it's ending support for Windows 10 version 1903, including Windows 10 Home and Windows 10 Pro. If you're on Windows 10 version 1903, you'll be force upgraded to version 1909 later this month. If you're on Windows 10 version 1909, you'll be forcefully upgraded to Windows 10 version 2004 (May 2020 Update) by the spring of next year. If you're still using last year's Windows 10 versions, it's better to attempt the upgrade manually. [...] The process is expected to start this week and expand over the course of the next month before Windows 10 version 21H1 update is ready for production channels.
I love how I walk away from my Win10 machine, (Score:5, Informative)
Re:I love how I walk away from my Win10 machine, (Score:5, Insightful)
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To be fair, why are you using a Desktop OS for a mission-critical application?
We have Windows Server for a windows OS designed for more mission-critical usages.
It is like complaining your Volvo X60 had severe damage after you put a 30 ton trailer on it. Saying you can't use Volvo for serious Shipping. Ignoring the fact that they make a line of Semi-Trucks as well.
No most Linux distributions won't reboot on you like that. But most Linux distributions are not designed as a Desktop OS, they are a Server OS,
Re:I love how I walk away from my Win10 machine, (Score:5, Insightful)
To be fair, why are you using a Desktop OS for a mission-critical application?
We have Windows Server for a windows OS designed for more mission-critical usages.
What's funny is that you think that's a different OS, and not just a different set of daemons running on the same OS.
It is like complaining your Volvo X60 had severe damage after you put a 30 ton trailer on it. Saying you can't use Volvo for serious Shipping. Ignoring the fact that they make a line of Semi-Trucks as well.
Except using Windows as a server is like using a Fiat Ducato when you could be using a Freightliner Cascadia. You do know that Linux has completely destroyed Windows as a server OS for every purpose other than Active Directory, right?
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An OS is more than the Kernel.
Sure, so?
If that was the case we would be saying Android is GNU/Linux While it isn't.
I don't say anything is GNU/Linux. That shit is wack.
Android is however conclusively Linux, since you can install a typical Linux userland on it and use it like you'd use any Linux.
Re:I love how I walk away from my Win10 machine, (Score:5, Insightful)
To be fair, why are you using a Desktop OS for a mission-critical application?
Because some desktop tasks are mission critical. Should the ER doc trying to view you electronic patient records before making a treatment decision not use a 'desktop os' even as a server client. Do you want him frustrated and waiting while it reboots?
t is like complaining your Volvo X60 had severe damage after you put a 30 ton trailer on it. Saying you can't use Volvo for serious Shipping. Ignoring the fact that they make a line of Semi-Trucks as well.
No its like buying X60s for use at a courier service and Volvo telling you that any fluid or tire changes must be done at 2pm on weekdays.
Re:I love how I walk away from my Win10 machine, (Score:5, Insightful)
The ER terminal is/should be on a private network with no/limited internet access and be receiving scheduled updates via WSUS on the domain it is joined to. If it is running Windows Home or Pro and receiving updates directly from microsoft.com, then fire your hospital CIO and network admin and get new ones.
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Or just get a sane OS.
Regular users have important stuff open too, force closing stuff without saving is simply not acceptable behavior.
Oh and don't say power failures (which won't affect a hibernating machine anyway). In my country power failures are more rare than a new queen of England.
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Medical devices, ATMs, process control machinery, etc. should be using the Long-Term Servicing release of Windows that is designed for those roles. It comes with 10 years of support, full control of when/if updates are applied, and no mandatory upgrades for the full lifecycle of the OS.
An ER computer should not auto update (Score:3)
Nor should it use a desktop OS, at all, ever.
Vehicle analogies are completely inappropriate. ALL mission critical hospital systems should be on airgapped networks. Not doing so is gross negligence. They should not be running Windows either for the same reasons aircraft flight controls don't run Windows.
The lazy, sloppy grossly incompetent practices tolerated as a legacy from when desktop OS like Windows 9x were expected to be utterly unreliable garbage need to end but the fuckups haven't killed enough peop
Re:I love how I walk away from my Win10 machine, (Score:5, Informative)
Valid point about Enterprise edition win10 being controllable with policy. However lets be realistic about Microsofts general approach here.
The enterprise edition of Windows 10 is basically a concession to their legacy customers. Its abundantly clear the direction Microsoft wants to go is get everyone on Azure AD and make Windows a rolling release with a much shorter support window for any given version.
Just because you have options with Enterprise Edition today does not mean 5 years from now you will even be able to purchase licenses and soon enough I am sure they will take the choice to refuse updates away in the Ent world for the most, part too.
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To be fair, why are you using a Desktop OS for a mission-critical application?
I dont have to run a mission-critical application on the desktop for it to be critical. Say I have a client application on my desktop connected to the data center and executing a 48-hours job. My desktop is not doing the critical work at all, but if it gets rebooted, the job is interrupted.
I find it disturbing that MS actually wants to "force" the upgrade. The decision is supposed to be 100% up to the owner. They paid for the license the get to do whatever the hell they want with it. Who's to say the fo
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Because Microsoft deems Windows 10 Home edition to be their property and come to party as they please.
Windows 10 Pro edition? Also Microsoft's property, but they they inform you about their partying, as they please.
Windows 10 Enterprise edition? Again, Microsoft's property, but they ask you when you agree to let them party.
Look 'rolling releases' sounds like a good concept. And it absolutely can be, when you do this with properly tested software. Windows 10 isn't tested properly. People in the fast rings do
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If you understand that, then why are you using Windows at all?
Its not like 2020 is the year of the idiot ... Oh, wait ...
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They paid for the license the get to do whatever the hell they want with it.
I don't think "they" actually read the license that they paid for. Unless you write the software yourself, from scratch, legally you have to have agree to whatever the terms are that are specified in the license accompanying the software. In the case of Microsoft this means that Microsoft gets to force you to update the software on Microsoft's terms. In the case of open source, it usually means restrictions on the ability to convert the software to closed source. There are advantages and disadvantages to bo
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That's intentional, and old. The server edition of Windows doesn't do these unprovoked reboots. It' not an 'evil Micro$oft' thing - it's a common business practice to release many variations of a product aimed at customers who have different spending limits by establishing minor differences between those products. Like limiting Windows pro to one RDP session at a time, ten CIFS sessions, and making it reboot itsself at inopportune moments: Without these small annoyances, businesses wouldn't fork over the ca
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You love that? I would hate it. That's why, for me, the last 25 years have been "the year of the Linux desktop".
Re:I love how I walk away from my Win10 machine, (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: I love how I walk away from my Win10 machine, (Score:3, Interesting)
Or, for a car analogy, if you're too stupid to not park in a tow zone, you deserve to have your car towed. If you're too stupid to not put it in park you deserve it rolling down the street and crashing.
Next up - idiot complains that their dog got hit by a car even though they didn't have it on a leash.
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You may be misunderstanding what is being said.
Have multiple applications open and in-process of doing things.
Simple example: many browser tabs open to different things and multiple file locations open. When autoupdate reboots all of those are lost. After reboot trying to find all these again can take considerable time and may not be able to remember all items that were in process. yes a log could be kept, but a system should never force reboot and force user to loose what they are working on even if it is
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their dog got hit by a car even though they didn't have it on a leash
...while it was sleeping on the sofa, in the house, on a Tuesday at 2 in the afternoon.
You microsoft apologists are as bad as the apple fanbois.
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> Everyone is just figuratively turning it off and on again,
Microsoft definitely deserves a lot of the blame for this crap of reboot to fix. Treating the symptom instead of fixing the (underlying) cause.
i.e. How many decades were we forced to reboot a Windows box simply because we changed the computer's name? LOL.
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Hint: kill windows update and windows update medic service, and re-enable them when you want to have updates done. Latter needs registry tweaks to be disabled.
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Does it work properly on pro and home versions? For example, switching telemetry off doesn't on those two via group policy.
Re:I love how I walk away from my Win10 machine, (Score:4, Insightful)
You made a mistake in your "Subject:" line: you called it "my Win10 machine."
It's NOT "your" machine: It belongs to Microsoft, along with all your files, data and personal information. Read the applicable EULAs.
Time to switch to Free Software.
Re:I love how I walk away from my Win10 machine, (Score:4, Insightful)
Especially helpful when you have a five day Blender scene running the render and it's on day 4.
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Especially helpful when you have a five day Blender scene running the render and it's on day 4.
If you had said 3DSMax, I might have bought it. But Blender runs in Linux, so you set yourself up for that one. Don't run your 5 day Blender render under Windows. You have no reason to whatsoever.
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Especially helpful when you have a five day Blender scene running the render and it's on day 4.
Also, why aren't you using a render farm if you do that regularly enough it's an issue? Blender has had addons for farming out renders since at least 2.79, and there are several available for 2.80. Solutions range from free and open source so you can manage your own cluster all the way up to online subscription services where the addon just submits render jobs for you, fast and easy.
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What applications are these? And why do they expose to the user "saving" as a distinct operation instead of always being in sync with their backing data store as a normal part of operation.
I swear, the notion of having to click a little floppy disk icon in order to commit your changes is one of the more pernicious ideas in man-machine interaction. I totally understand it was necessary in the past when storage media were slow and the process of serializing to an on-disk format were costly (really, I'm that o
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What applications are these? And why do they expose to the user "saving" as a distinct operation instead of always being in sync with their backing data store as a normal part of operation. I swear, the notion of having to click a little floppy disk icon in order to commit your changes is one of the more pernicious ideas in man-machine interaction.
Hard disagree. If I'm quoting something in a report from last year, and I accidentally hit ctrl+x instead of ctrl+c, I absolutely positively DO NOT want the content or the file modification date of The Big Important Official Report From Last Year(tm) changed.
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It's something you should have the ability to disable, but yours in the exception use case. The most broad common use case of software that edits data is that people simply want the persistent data to reflect what they're doing without having to manually commit that state to the persistent store. Most software offers the ability to retrieve past states should you decide you don't want to continue down a commit path you're already on.
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Why fixate on the modification date of the file? The file is just a container for the document, it could also live in a network store or be replicated or who knows. There could be a disk failure that causes it to be restored from a backup and have the last modification date be the date the file was restored from backup.
What seems more relevant to the business is that there are modifications to the content of the document, which are itemized specifically as to what actual constituents were changed, for examp
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I would also recommend that if you are walking away from your computer for an extended time you should save your work before doing so. This would be proper work flow even if the computer isn't force rebooting.
It is not as simple as that. Night before last I was working on a development project. I saved all my code changes and went to bed. When I got up in the morning the computer had updated and rebooted without confirmation. It did this "outside of working hours" (but also had not warned me that an update was pending and would occur outside of working hours.)
Per your recommendation I didn't lose any data, however I did lose important state. I had VMWare running several virtual machines that host the full ente
But will it work? (Score:4, Informative)
My only question is: Will it work? These semi-annual upgrades are not only loaded with bloatware but also don't work all of the time. I've had 2 laptops that perennially fail at the last upgrade and no MSFT tech support I'm not refreshing those either. Some of the features (like WSL2) have been great additions but popup ads and forcing all the MSFT account walled garden nonsense just push me to use my Linux systems more.
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If your laptops are having trouble upgrading, it's probably related to the hardware. I had a Dell with a discrete AMD GPU that would often fail after having been getting insider previews for a while. Disabling the GPU usually got around that. I think there was a piece of software that was also causing problems but I forget what it was. Installing a full release version from USB and not going back to previews seemed to eliminate the problem.
Still don't know what bloat you're talking about,
Re:But will it work? (Score:4, Informative)
Then doing drive cleanup, selecting the then available option of cleaning driver packages.
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Answering honestly there are a couple of options.
1. If it's not a straight incompatibility, they'll probably do a wipe-and-load OS installation instead of an in place upgrade. 90% chance this is it.
2. If it is a straight hardware problem on an old machine, then they should upgrade you to a new box. I'd be surprised to see hardware problems on machines 5 years old. 9.9% chance
3. If it is a hardware problem that can't be fixed and they can't get you a new machine then they should point it to a WSUS or CM se
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Or he thinks popup ads are a normal feature of the OS.
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I use the gamebar screen recorder to make demos and record problem repros so I don't have to install OBS or Bandicam. Am I doing it wrong?
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You mean the gamebar you can turn off? I'd hardly classify that as bloatware. Its runtime footprint is tiny, and it can be disabled ridiculously easily. This basically just falls into a matter of opinion as to whether adding new features is bloat or not bloat, and frankly this has more to do with politics than anything.
OK. Looking forward to it. (Score:2)
My Toshiba laptop is stuck on 1909. Apparently there's an issue with realtek audio that's been holding it back from the 2004 update.
Can't wait.
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My Asus laptop is the same way, been on 1909 forever with some thing about how 2004 is coming soon but they're waiting for some fix. There appears to be no "manual" upgrade within Windows Update short of periodic patch updates.
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Have you tried skipping 2004 and going straight to 20H2? You can use this link:
https://www.microsoft.com/en-c... [microsoft.com]
to either update directly or download the iso (or make a boot USB).
How is this legal? (Score:2)
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EULA
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EULA
Does not override criminal law, which, for example, calls changing data on a system without the system owner's permission "sabotage". A forced update is far over the threshold where this becomes criminal behavior by MS. At least in the EU.
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If the EULA says that Microsoft will occasionally force updates on your system and you agree to the EULA then you (the system owner) are giving Microsoft permission to make those changes. There is no criminal act if you have already given Microsoft permission to make changes.
P.S. There is a legitimate argument to be made that EULA shouldn't be binding but that is another issue.
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In practice, since the data isn't your personal data and is changed in the course of updating it to a newer version of the same thing (with or without additional fixes to security issues), in practice, nobody rightly gives a shit if you insist that technically it's exactly like Microsoft walking through your front door and deleting everything in your documents folder.
Intent is everything with how and why laws and written, and how and why laws are enforced.
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changing data on a system without the system owner's permission "sabotage".
The owner gave explicit permission for this (as well as many other intrusive actions) when they clicked the "Agree" button on the EULA.
Re:How is this legal? (Score:5, Informative)
Whether it's ethical or not is a question for debate.
It's legal because Microsoft specifies in their terms of service--that you had to agree to to install or start using Windows--that they have the right to upgrade your system.
See Point 6: https://www.microsoft.com/en-u... [microsoft.com]
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Well even EULAs have been legally challenged, so saying "it's in the EULA" really isn't a good answer to "is it legal".* For that a lawyer is required, and maybe even a court case. Anyway I'm more concerned with the general trend of "it's not your computer" not just with OS, but ads with paid software showing up, constantly interrupting. This happens on mobile as well as the forced updates, and forced apps inclusion (Samsung Pulse in my case).
*I'm sure the Oculus EULA made everything Facebook was doing, "le
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Until it has been decided by act of law or a decision of the court that EULAs are illegal then the answer is that "it's in the EULA" is legal.
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Nah, this is more like the bailiffs coming around and removing stuff legally.
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Show proof of ownership of the software.
You're licensing a service. And although you can sue for some kind of breach of contract, good luck doing that against Microsoft.
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Show proof of ownership of the software.
Yup. A lot of people don't realize that they bought a license to use the product, not the product itself.
I tell them that's it's like buying a ticket to get into an event....the event can change or decide to kick you out and there's very little you can do about it.
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Another way to view it would be more like the equivalent of the local fire department's mandatory chimney sweep and fireplace check-up. Just like the average Joe would happily never maintain their fireplace or chimney and risk burning the neighborhood down, so too will the average Joe never update their computer and risk ending up running more botnets on it than regular applications.
I keep a full disk image of my OS drive just in case a major Windows update screws something up. I can't remember that happeni
Too close to home (Score:5, Funny)
Not long after Windows 10 version 2004 was released, they came out with version 2020. I wish I had not upgraded.
Ah, tearbait. (Score:3, Interesting)
Personally, I like updates. I like it when vulnerabilities are patched. I know from supporting them that end users are really really bad about keeping their systems patched.
Automatic updates are a good thing. If you hate them, buy a version that isn't designed for lazy users that don't really know what they're doing. Don't pretend Microsoft is some kind of home invader because your software updates. That's just plain childish.
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Maybe, but this is talking about upgrades. As in, my laptop will crash during upgrade because it's old and some hardware or driver is incompatible with the new OS. (Not hypothetical, that's what happens with my work laptop.)
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That company had a problem entirely of their own creation. If they weren't so lazy, they would write a proper application that is independent of the version of Windows and uses only stable interfaces. The Win32 programming interface has not changed in a couple of decades and it is backwards bug-for-bug compatible for almost half a century.
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Probably, but not necessarily. After all, who says none of the interfaces provided by Windows change with a new OS? (or upgrade, as they're called in the Windows 10 world.)
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"any time microsoft pushed an update out we had to scramble to check compatibility issues and generate fixes based on what broke"
That's a "you" problem, not a "they" problem. Your designers and software engineers are idiots.
If you app was so creaky that a browser update would crash it, your app was shit.
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How dare you assume my preferred beverage? I DRINK TEA!
The risks of upgrading vs. not upgrading (Score:2)
The risks of upgrades, including automatic ones, include potentially causing some installed software to no longer work, and even in some cases forcing the computer to be formatted and installed from scratch, potentially resulting in data loss.
There are also risks of not upgrading. The older the OS, the more prone it is to malware, since Microsoft is constantly creating patches to block or prevent specific zero-day attacks from being successful. These security improvements are not present in older versions o
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"You own nothing. Why aren't you happy? (not a rhetorical question!)"
Re:The risks of upgrading vs. not upgrading (Score:5, Insightful)
We all understand why it's important to maintain (patch and repair and update) our cars and homes. Why do we feel the need to resist maintenance in our digital worlds? (Not a rhetorical question!)
Burning a prior mod to answer this. I think the answer to your question is that Microsoft updates are like omnibus bills in politics - you end up accepting stuff that's anywhere from nasty to almost horrific in order to get something that you really need. Yes - people need security updates, and although I don't agree with forcing those on people I see the reasoning and am open to having my mind changed.
What I'm NOT open to is taking on all sorts of bloatware in addition to the bloatware I'm already saddled with. What I'm NOT open to is having my user interface arbitrarily changed - often drastically - so I can no longer find things and I have to waste time learning a new paradigm which sucks harder than the old one, which in turn sucked harder than its predecessor, ad infinitum.
I'm also not open to having my machine arbitrarily force-rebooted with no opportunity to postpone the reboot, in such a way that it causes loss of current work and settings. (Note that this practice can even perma-brick other hardware for which I'm using Windows to perform firmware updates; this happens with some high-end Husqvarna and Pfaff sewing machines, for example).
That's why I'm on Linux, and if it ever goes the way Windows has then I'm old enough to basically forsake computers and tell the digital world to sod off. But I'll still feel for the users who get fucked up the ass by Microsoft.
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That's why I'm on Linux, and if it ever goes the way Windows has then I'm old enough to basically forsake computers and tell the digital world to sod off. But I'll still feel for the users who get fucked up the ass by Microsoft.
Surprised VMs aren't more common. Would alleviate some of these problems. Never-mind the additional security.
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I get your position and agree with some of your concerns, like bloatware. Linux is a good option for you. Unfortunately, it's not a good option for the typical non-technical user.
While bloatware is a problem, it has nothing to do with automatic updates. Yes, of course they are sometimes introduced through automatic updates. But bloatware happens because of Microsoft's desire to make money. They enter into lucrative partnerships with third parties, who pay for the privilege of having their software installed
Re:The risks of upgrading vs. not upgrading (Score:5, Insightful)
We all understand why it's important to maintain (patch and repair and update) our cars and homes. Why do we feel the need to resist maintenance in our digital worlds? (Not a rhetorical question!)
This is not a security patch. It is a feature release. I don't think anyone here is complaining about patching zero day holes but why do I need to completely replace an OS that is only 18 months old. I do need or want whatever new features Microsoft's attention deficit employees are enamored with today.
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A feature release is analogous to a kitchen remodel. Homeowners understand why we should do major renovations from time to time, if we want to keep up the value of our house. Software is no different.
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A feature release is analogous to a kitchen remodel. Homeowners understand why we should do major renovations from time to time, if we want to keep up the value of our house. Software is no different.
Why did it suddenly go from
These security improvements are not present in older versions on Windows, and can also lead to a bricked machine, or data loss, or data leaks.
to keeping up the value of our software? Besides, I value stability and integrity in my software, not fancy new features.
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The risk of updating MAY result in the need to format and install from scratch but unless the drive itself dies there shouldn't be any loss of data. Even if you can't boot to the drive you should be able to get data off of it (again assuming there isn't a hardware failure).
If you don't update there is a risk that someone could use a vulnerability in the OS to compromise your system and cause actual data loss.
I have no proof of this (so feel free to ignore) but I would say that it is probably more risk of lo
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Right. So maybe the homeowner analogy is a better fit. A homeowner needs to not only fix things around the house that break or wear out, but over time, it's a good idea to update the kitchen or master bath, if you want to keep up the house's value.
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A homeowner needs to not only fix things around the house that break or wear out, but over time, it's a good idea to update the kitchen or master bath, if you want to keep up the house's value.
Unless I am planning to sell the house or something why would I care about the value? Also, if I do plan to sell the house, I could do the upgrades/remodels then. If I want to use the same bath etc for 20 or 30 years what's the problem?
Also, if and when I do choose to remodel, I can do it the way I want, not the way someone else wants (because it's "trendy" or "cool" for them).
"Force" eh? (Score:5, Insightful)
Whatever happened to that "Don't check for upgrades, leave my fucking machine alone" button?
Maybe I need that particular version of Windows because later versions break whatever application have have running on it. Maybe I'm behind a firewall and this is a production machine without even a browser on it. Maybe I'm stupid and reckless but that's how I want to be. Maybe I don't trust Microsoft to release code that's better than the previous revision.
I just love it when mega-corporations know what you need better than you do and infantilize you...
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It's been replaced with a harder-to-find "don't upgrade for a year" button.
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Whatever happened to that "Don't check for upgrades, leave my fucking machine alone" button?
It's a third party app now:
https://greatis.com/stopupdate... [greatis.com]
As this useful application for reducing one's data leakage:
https://www.w10privacy.de/engl... [w10privacy.de]
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Part of the problem here is that Windows updates require rebooting. I'm not sure why this is more the case for Windows than Linux -- obviously I have my theories.
I accept that there are some situations where the least bad option is a forced update of Windows; it just means Windows simply shouldn't be used to run processes that being forced to interrupt is particularly bad.
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Whatever happened to that "Don't check for upgrades, leave my fucking machine alone" button?
I think we all understand that unpatched systems being connected to the internet is a bit of a problem, but it is also pretty clear that we also all understand that forced updating creates its own sets of problems.
The degree to which any of these are problems is context dependent.
The thing is, forced updating cannot actually eliminate all of the problems that it is alleged to be addressing because there will continue to be unpatched shit on the internet, not just windows shit, and thats going to always
Merry Christmas! (Score:2)
"Awesome" (Score:3)
Well, that's really awesome, because from 1909 onwards, Windows 10 pretty much stopped working when installed on iSCSI drives. It either BSODs or fails to boot for another reason.
Resistance is futile (Score:2)
Another reason to stick with win7 for as long as p (Score:2)
Re: Another reason to stick with win7 for as long (Score:3)
Security updates?
Oh, don't look my way, I've been using Linux exclusively for two decades now. But if you're not, you might want to... you know... stuff those holes every now and then.
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One of the biggest selling points with Windows 7 now is that you don't have to deal with the headaches Microsoft's updates cause now. My guess is Windows 7 has about 2 years left until a lot of new software stops supporting it. Though it's practically impossible to get Windows 7 onto new hardware now as Microsoft strong-armed all the vendors into not writing drivers for it, so if you want to stick with Windows 7 you'll have to stick with older hardware too.
Last time... (Score:2)
Last time I tried to update to 2004, my music PC failed to boot and rolled itself back to 1903 before updating to 1909.
ABM (Score:4, Insightful)
Anything But Microsoft - fuck them.
And what if I have a piece of software, maybe I wrote it, that won't work with something different. It's not your PC Microsoft. Fuck off.
This is the exact reason why I like my Mac and love my Linux. My computer. My choice.
Update skip (Score:2)
I always annoy me the number of reboots that must be done when updating a new Windows 10 computer. Why can't they just push me the latest update directly without having to first install every previous version? And also, why do they need to put back that nag screen with many questions on every update?
Microsoft knows what's best for you (Score:2, Funny)
Microsoft knows what's best for you, and you'll lean to love it or else.
Besides, who doesn't like to reboot over and over again, every couple of days?
The Borg (Score:2)
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Windows 7 (Score:3)