FAA and Boeing 'Inappropriately Coached' Pilots In 737 MAX Testing (reuters.com) 83
Boeing officials "inappropriately coached" test pilots during recertification efforts after two fatal 737 MAX crashes killed 346 people, according to a lengthy congressional report released on Friday. Reuters reports: The report from the Senate Commerce Committee Republican staff said testing this year of a key safety system known as MCAS tied to both fatal crashes was contrary to proper protocol. The committee concluded Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and Boeing officials "had established a pre-determined outcome to reaffirm a long-held human factor assumption related to pilot reaction time ... It appears, in this instance, FAA and Boeing were attempting to cover up important information that may have contributed to the 737 MAX tragedies."
The report citing a whistleblower who alleged Boeing officials encouraged test pilots to "remember, get right on that pickle switch" prior to the exercise that resulted in pilot reaction in approximately four seconds, while another pilot in a separate test reacted in approximately 16 seconds. The report also noted Southwest Airlines was able to operate more than 150,000 flights carrying 17.2 million passengers on jets without confirmation that required maintenance had been completed. The Senate report said the Southwest flights "put millions of passengers at potential risk." Boeing said Friday it takes "seriously the committee's findings and will continue to review the report in full."
The report citing a whistleblower who alleged Boeing officials encouraged test pilots to "remember, get right on that pickle switch" prior to the exercise that resulted in pilot reaction in approximately four seconds, while another pilot in a separate test reacted in approximately 16 seconds. The report also noted Southwest Airlines was able to operate more than 150,000 flights carrying 17.2 million passengers on jets without confirmation that required maintenance had been completed. The Senate report said the Southwest flights "put millions of passengers at potential risk." Boeing said Friday it takes "seriously the committee's findings and will continue to review the report in full."
"put millions of passengers at potential risk"? (Score:1)
What about the millions of dollars of share options these politicians are putting at risk, eh? No one ever stands up for the rich and powerful. Well, apart from the rich and powerful of course - but what can they really do to be heard with just their ownership of media and huge marketing budgets behind them?
Re: (Score:2)
Perhaps the rich and powerful -- to include politicians and Boeing executives -- should all be required to fly on nothing but 737MAX planes. I imagine many things would be different if the people in charge were subject to and could possibly experience any negative consequences of their decisions.
Regulatory Capture in action (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
You'd think someone would just make bribery illegal and be done with it.
Re: (Score:2)
And who exactly will write that law? The people receiving the bribes?
Re: (Score:2)
The thing about laws is that they're public. Well, most of them. So you can see what they say. So even if someone on the take writes the law, if the electorate actually cares then the problem will get fixed.
The real problem is the electorate likes things the way they are.
Re: (Score:2)
"No, the problem is that the electorate are fucking lazy ..."
A big part of the problem is most of the electorate don't have much free time after they're done dealing with their work (and the time they need to recover), transit, and the time they need to run their daily lives with things like shopping for food and other necessities, managing finances, taking care of their dwelling, health, and kids, etc.
Re: (Score:2)
This is exactly why we can't get Congress to enact campaign finance reforms.
Re: (Score:2)
Having politicians co-opted by special interests doesn't require bribery, not in the sense of personally enriching politicians. All it requires is that the special interests be allowed to influence elections, which is inseparable from free speech.
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:1)
Call (Score:2)
Please cite the full name and years of service for the "Russian agent" who was President of the NRA, or be exposed as a liar.
While you're scrambling to make something up about a group favored by the right, let me show you how it's done using an organization favored by the left:
You realize that the 4th Secretary General of the United Nations (in office from 1 January 1972 to 31 December 1981) was a Hitler-era goosestepper [wikipedia.org] named Kurt Waldheim, right?
Re: (Score:2)
The US has painted itself into an interesting corner all right. It will be interesting to see what happens in the next twenty years as the cold war generations dwindle.
Re: (Score:2)
I think you might find that the NRA is in deep doo doo, due to sever corruption. From what I have read it is likely to be abolished in it's home state of New York, it's assets seized and many of it's senior officers slammed in jail for personally enriching themselves illegally using NRA funds.
Plenty of gun owners don't like the NRA.
Re: (Score:2)
Plenty of gun owners don't like the NRA.
I'll never forgive the NRA for awarding Ajit Pai a fucking courage award for 'saving the internet'.
The NRA has become a joke, and a parody of itself. It should lose any and all protections it has and be replaced with an organisation that actually remembers that it's supposed to be protecting the 2nd Amendment.
Repeat after me kiddies (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
True. Need some separation of powers type stuff to go along with it. Maybe an investigatory body or two whose job it is to look out for such things.
Re: (Score:2)
You'd think someone would just make bribery illegal and be done with it.
It is, but what _if_ you are only paid (bribed) after you leave your official post? How do we legislate and protect against that?
That is the real problem these days. Being nice to those you are supposed to regulate so you can career advance into those organizations later.
Re: (Score:2)
I think there are too many problems with campaign donations to call that "the real problem" but it certainly is a problem. There are a variety of conflict of interest laws around the world to take inspiration from though, and non-compete clauses in industry. The old "checks and balances" thing might be helpful as well.
Re: (Score:2)
Okay, but compaign contributions are easy to fix. That is just bribery and already illegal in most non-US countries.
Quelle surprise (Score:3)
Boeing was, is, and will be a corrupt organization.
The number of incidents of this are pretty much legend. And Boeing like the proverbial leopard shows zero sign of changing its spots.
Re:Quelle surprise (Score:4, Insightful)
Boeing was, is, and will be a corrupt organization.
The number of incidents of this are pretty much legend. And Boeing like the proverbial leopard shows zero sign of changing its spots.
Actually, Boeing is a company that used to be run by engineers and which produced excellent quality aircraft. Then it was taken over by libertarian dipshits with Harvard business degrees who flew the company and it's reputation for producing quality products it into the ground with cost cutting, the idea of making safety mechanisms an optional feature, an 'upsell' and other similar 'innovative business models' like outsourcing critical flight control system component coding to the lowest bidder without any regard for pesky issues like quality control and that bidder's competence.
Re: (Score:1)
Boeing was, is, and will be a corrupt organization.
The number of incidents of this are pretty much legend. And Boeing like the proverbial leopard shows zero sign of changing its spots.
Actually, Boeing is a company that used to be run by engineers and which produced excellent quality aircraft. Then it was taken over by libertarian dipshits with Harvard business degrees who flew the company and it's reputation for producing quality products it into the ground with cost cutting, the idea of making safety mechanisms an optional feature, an 'upsell' and other similar 'innovative business models' like outsourcing critical flight control system component coding to the lowest bidder without any regard for pesky issues like quality control and that bidder's competence.
While I don't agree that the "libertarian" part is warranted (I don't know, TBH), the rest of the comment is spot on. And has been validated many, many times all over many fields.
I don't know what this says for capitalism in general, but it does lead to interesting stories, indeed.
Re: (Score:3)
Boeing was, is, and will be a corrupt organization.
The number of incidents of this are pretty much legend. And Boeing like the proverbial leopard shows zero sign of changing its spots.
Actually, Boeing is a company that used to be run by engineers and which produced excellent quality aircraft. Then it was taken over by libertarian dipshits with Harvard business degrees who flew the company and it's reputation for producing quality products it into the ground with cost cutting, the idea of making safety mechanisms an optional feature, an 'upsell' and other similar 'innovative business models' like outsourcing critical flight control system component coding to the lowest bidder without any regard for pesky issues like quality control and that bidder's competence.
While I don't agree that the "libertarian" part is warranted (I don't know, TBH), the rest of the comment is spot on. And has been validated many, many times all over many fields.
I don't know what this says for capitalism in general, but it does lead to interesting stories, indeed.
The major reason for the downfall of Boeing can be summed up in two words: Mindless Greed which is not to say that there weren't other contributing factors but greed with a healthy sprinkling of rank incompetence were the biggest contributors.
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Harvard is deep leftist? That must be why they've always been a primer recruiting ground for Wall Street and the CIA. Good grief, Harvard, Yale and the rest of the Ivy League schools are no more leftist than Milton Friedman, they're elitest, they support the ruling class and the status quo. That's a position pretty much antithetical to the leftist position. Yes, they have some professors who aren't conservative, but that's necessary if you want competent instructors.
Re: (Score:2)
The major reason for the downfall of Boeing can be summed up in two words: Mindless Greed which is not to say that there weren't other contributing factors but greed with a healthy sprinkling of rank incompetence were the biggest contributors.
Basically the capitalist sub-class of the Dunning-Kruger effect. Greed, arrogance and no strategic thinking. I do not think this company will make it, bit it will kill a lot more people before it fails.
Re: (Score:2)
When was that? Because Boeing had deadly design mistakes since the 1980s at the very least.
Re: (Score:1)
When was that? Because Boeing had deadly design mistakes since the 1980s at the very least.
Well that ain't right, Boeing didn't merge with McDonnell Douglas until 1997.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
And the 757/767 thrust reverser.
Re: (Score:2)
Actually, Boeing is a company that used to be run by engineers and which produced excellent quality aircraft. Then it was taken over by libertarian dipshits with Harvard business degrees who flew the company and it's reputation for producing quality products it into the ground with cost cutting, the idea of making safety mechanisms an optional feature, an 'upsell' and other similar 'innovative business models' like outsourcing critical flight control system component coding to the lowest bidder without any regard for pesky issues like quality control and that bidder's competence.
Yes, and it's even worse than that. The MBA's decided that the market "wanted" a more fuel efficient 737 that had the same flight characteristics as before, to minimize pilot training. The MBA's then decided that the most "cost efficient" way to do this was to put a very large fuel efficient engine on the existing airframe. Never mind that to do that, the engines had to be shifted forwards and up on the wings so they wouldn't hit the ground. This shift fundamentally altered the aerodynamic stability of the
Re: (Score:2)
Just to add to the outrage, the Max already has a second AOA vane, but for some reason, MCAS doesn't look at it.
Re: (Score:2)
Just to add to the outrage, the Max already has a second AOA vane, but for some reason, MCAS doesn't look at it.
To be properly reliable, it should be polling three angle of attack sensors at once. Then if one fails, it could go for the majority reading. With two sensors, the system can't know which reading is real and which is eroneous.
Re: (Score:2)
True, but if they disagree, it can deactivate and give a warning (which would have prevented both crashes).. They could have had that practically for free since the hardware was already there.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Boeing got Fiorina'ed.
Re: (Score:1)
Boeings Sr. Management may have committed a crime but there was no intent. Most are sales and marketing lizards with no hope of understanding the systems their really smart teams run. International Market forces and their own internal QA systems all supported by the FAA were great until two aircrews deep stalled
Re: Hi .. do yo (Score:4, Interesting)
Well it sounds like Boeing and the FAA were doing something inappropriate together when it came to their handling of the 737 Max situation. Something to make them both feel good about being able to fly it again.
So will Boeing ... (Score:2)
provide free (re)training for all 747 MAX pilots as it did with those involved in re-certification ? If not, why not ?
Re: (Score:2)
they will. for 2 years after the plane begins flying again. i'm sure there are better deals other airlines are negotiating.
I am highly interested to see what Southwest is going to threaten (they fly one type to minimize recert costs), Boeing may have to start subsidizing Southwest
The article is a bit light on details (Score:3)
The article is a bit light on details. It does say the allegation that the testing was kind of rigged ("allegation was corroborated by FAA staff"), basically the pilots where fully alert to react appropriately in an emergency scenario - which is not how things work in real life. I guess it is a bit how simulation pilots of the "Sully" flight to the Hudson could land in the airport if they started that course of action the moment of the bird strike - which is when the actual pilots had little information to go on.
Anyway, since the article is light on details I am not sure if those simulations were a requirement for the recently granted certification? Shouldn't it be revoked in that case?
Re: (Score:2)
"basically the pilots where fully alert to react appropriately in an emergency scenario - which is not how things work in real life."
I gotta believe that every pilot who gets in the cockpit of one of these is going to get fully briefed on how to handle this scenario. Anyone would be an idiot not to, given all the press this has received. In fact, I'd bet they'll all be practicing it in simulators.
Show me on the doll where they coached you. (Score:3)
B’cuz COVID (Score:2)
I won’t fly Boeing. Who can you trust? FAA was the last safety stop to prevent MCAS fail-over. Congress signaled that they only can “committee” review paperwork so its just personal customer judgement left.
Pilots returning to flying status after hiatus are bringing both exuberance and “rusty” skills. Not a Boeing plague. Spirit flight into PTY dropped an Airbus onto the runway upon approach. Pilot came in hot, rotated early and stalled above the runway. HARD landing, hardest ev
Re: B’cuz COVID (Score:2)
MCAs itself wasn't, and isn't, an issue. Its the fact that Boeing hid it was there so it wasn't in training materials, attached an AOA disagree light to an upset instrument package(possibly inadvertently), and in order to "reduce costs" tacked new engines that were too big onto an old airframe which required the development of a system like MCAS instead of designing a new airframe.
But if MCAS had been known and could have been added into checklist procedures (including how to disable it and the effects dis
Re: (Score:3)
in order to "reduce costs" tacked new engines that were too big
everything else you say is correct, except this. the engines had nothing to do with reducing costs. southwest refused to buy a plane which required a recertification of their pilots. southwest was also the largest pre-order buyer of boeing 737 max planes. the entire reason for the same 737 fuselage is because of southwest air. the engines are next-gen and they "had to make it work" to show viability for mass customer appeal. mcas is the result. the half-ass attempt is to avoid certification so southw
Re: Bcuz COVID (Score:2)
@dknj wrote: i'm pretty sure boeing is going to front the cost of all 737 max training for southwest
Yet still another Boeing argument for PASS?
The 4sec cheat PASS .vs. 16sec trained pilot reaction time at 220kts? SHTF in 16sec. Boeing have an airliner that can nose first into terra firma. In 30 sec. under 2000 ft. climbout its all over for 300+ souls aboard.
Re: (Score:2)
They did need a way to disengage MCAS that left the electric trim itself functional, and MCAS should have checked the second AOA sensor and disengaged itself with a warning if they disagreed.
Pretty much the same as technology boot-camps (Score:1)
There's not too much detail, but it sounds like they were told exactly what they'd be tested for?
This is pretty much how every technology certificate is achieved. You often go to a boot-camp or take "sample" tests, and just memorize specific answers and not the material itself. So you go in for testing knowing exactly what you're going to be asked. Borderline useless.
Re: (Score:2)
Education is a tough business. Your customers give you money and they get upset when you not only don't deliver the goods, but tell them it's their fault.
Re: (Score:2)
Borderline useless.
Worse actually. The overall worth of this is negative, because people will get into positions that they cannot fill competently as a result. Makes for nice negative productivity.
greed (Score:3)
It is not a push for quality or customer satisfaction.
Not just Boeings greed (Score:1)
Re: (Score:1)
This probably isn't new (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Why just Boeing? It sounds like the FAA's certification process has some critical issues. That means all American aircraft are suspect.
Ah, Boeing is essentially the only one of those left. That could also be part of the problem.
Re: (Score:2)
Do you drive a car? I can guarantee you that pretty much every single auto manufacturer has done just as bad, if not worse.
The simple fact of the matter is that you should be looking at the overall safety record instead of making a kneejerk reaction. Which planes/airlines have the best safety records.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/g... [forbes.com]
https://www.traveller.com.au/r... [traveller.com.au]
https://www.airlineratings.com... [airlineratings.com]
If Europe certified it... (Score:2)
Sad. Back in the 50-70s, it was American certification on Food, Aircrafts, roads, etc. that was to be trusted. Now??
So Boeing has learned _nothing_..... (Score:2)
Clearly, they are basically a criminal enterprise at this time. It is time to dismantle that company and to jail the executives for a long, long time as the mass-murderers they are.
Wow (Score:2)
What a shock [slashdot.org].
No way around this... (Score:1)
These people are psychopaths.
This plane needs to be scrapped and everyone involved from Boeing and the FAA thrown in jail.
Heaven forbid... (Score:1)
...that the people who design and build the plane, and know it better than any one else, should ever let the people who fly them have all available information about how best to operate the extremely complex systems that control the machine's functionality in potential life-or-death situations...
That would be a real *BAD* *THING*, right?
Right?
I mean, really...
This is all inevitable fallout from a government.. (Score:2)
failure the politicians and bureaucrats hope the voters do not notice.
The US Government failed in a rather basic duty it has generally had since the administration of Teddy Roosevelt: antitrust regulation. In 1997, during the Clinton administration (only mentioning that here to plug the pie hole of some ignorant lefty who might try to snow people into thinking it was a right-wing administration at fault) the federal government approved the acquisition of McDonnell Douglas by Boeing. This had several direct
Somebody should go to jail if this is true (Score:1)
What happened to the Whistle blowers ? (Score:2)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] has 161,133 employees;
Why none of them were https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] illegal/immoral activities