Police Turn To Car Data To Destroy Suspects' Alibis (nbcnews.com) 194
In recent years, investigators have realized that automobiles -- particularly newer models -- can be treasure troves of digital evidence. Their onboard computers generate and store data that can be used to reconstruct where a vehicle has been and what its passengers were doing. From a report: They reveal everything from location, speed and acceleration to when doors were opened and closed, whether texts and calls were made while the cellphone was plugged into the infotainment system, as well as voice commands and web histories. But that boon for forensic investigators creates fear for privacy activists, who warn that the lack of information security baked into vehicles' computers poses a risk to consumers and who call for safeguards to be put in place. "I hear a lot of analogies of cars being smartphones on wheels. But that's vastly reductive," said Andrea Amico, founder of Privacy4Cars, which makes a free app that helps people delete their data from automobiles and makes its money by offering the service to rental companies and dealerships. "If you think about the amount of sensors in a car, the smartphone is a toy. A car has GPS, an accelerometer, a camera. A car will know how much you weigh. Most people don't realize this is happening."
Law enforcement agencies have been focusing their investigative efforts on two main information sources: the telematics system -- which is like the "black box" -- and the infotainment system. The telematics system stores a vehicle's turn-by-turn navigation, speed, acceleration and deceleration information, as well as more granular clues, such as when and where the lights were switched on, the doors were opened, seat belts were put on and airbags were deployed. The infotainment system records recent destinations, call logs, contact lists, text messages, emails, pictures, videos, web histories, voice commands and social media feeds. It can also keep track of the phones that have been connected to the vehicle via USB cable or Bluetooth, as well as all the apps installed on the device. Together, the data allows investigators to reconstruct a vehicle's journey and paint a picture of driver and passenger behavior. In a criminal case, the sequence of doors opening and seat belts being inserted could help show that a suspect had an accomplice.
Law enforcement agencies have been focusing their investigative efforts on two main information sources: the telematics system -- which is like the "black box" -- and the infotainment system. The telematics system stores a vehicle's turn-by-turn navigation, speed, acceleration and deceleration information, as well as more granular clues, such as when and where the lights were switched on, the doors were opened, seat belts were put on and airbags were deployed. The infotainment system records recent destinations, call logs, contact lists, text messages, emails, pictures, videos, web histories, voice commands and social media feeds. It can also keep track of the phones that have been connected to the vehicle via USB cable or Bluetooth, as well as all the apps installed on the device. Together, the data allows investigators to reconstruct a vehicle's journey and paint a picture of driver and passenger behavior. In a criminal case, the sequence of doors opening and seat belts being inserted could help show that a suspect had an accomplice.
Surveillance state in nearly complete (Score:2)
Welcome to dystopia.
Re: Surveillance state in nearly complete (Score:2)
One man's dystopia is another man's utopia. I mean the film Metropolis was in part directed to be the utopian ideal of Nazj Germany and yet today stands as a classic sci-fi example of dystopia. I feel too there has to be some law about the inconsistent nature of security, convenience, and privacy. Privacy often seems at odds with the others.
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That's not dystopia, that's panopticon. The two aren't the same. You can have a dystopia without a panopticon, and a panopticon without a dystopia. Currently they seem to be operating off the same page, but that's not inevitable. (OTOH it may be true that a government run by people that is a panopticon will tend towards a dystopia and conversely.)
To me this is another argument that the AI we're developing had better be friendly, as if we needed another argument.
I want the source code or you must acquit! (Score:5, Insightful)
I want the source code or you must acquit!
If the state can use this then I want the source code + the logs to be checked by own lawyer
Wow, cool (Score:2)
Does anyone know how to tap into the telemetrics system of your own car? I want to try that.
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vendor dependant.
and as they get more and more clued in, expect even passive listening to yield nothing (as they encrypt their comms channels).
right now, you can sniff CAN and LIN and some ethernet (I don't care about the other weird things like most and flexray; can/lin/eth is the lion share of what goes on in wires, in cars, today).
once the ecu vendors move away from native CAN and go ethernet, the jig may be up, as you can encrype eth much easier and in more standard ways.
Re: Wow, cool (Score:5, Interesting)
Odb-2 is the port which gives you access to the bus that all your devices talk across. Most cars expose the MS/HS canbus which allows you to see lane assist, steering functions, abs, etc. a lot of the cooler devices (lane assist, abs, engine management) are behind firewalls that limit writing to the bus. Get a device like ODBLink MX and an app like Torque and you can see all of the telemetrics that runs across your car. Get a Linux CANBUS adapter and tie into the HS canbus line and then you can flood the network with your packets and do things like change your speedometer, tell your car to turn left, and control your stereo or windows.
Not all cars support this, check out www.comma.ai as a good summary of what cars expose over canbus.
These guys made a self driving go kart from Prius parts: http://illmatics.com/car_hacking_poories.pdf
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Odb-2 is the port which gives you access to the bus that all your devices talk across.
on cars designed without a true firewall gateway (and done by teenagers, I mean, 20somethings are are cheap to hire but have no world experience to speak of) - perhaps.
but better designs are really limiting what traffic you can get to over obd port. its a diag port, not a true 'router leg' port. think dmz, sort of.
filtering is the main thing that the router does (can gateway). only a stupid company would disable all fil
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and so the user is not going to have r/w access and even r/o access will be cut off over time
Right to repair. How can they differentiate between a 'legitimate' independent shop and a shade tree mechanic with a laptop?
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you don't get it.
you have rights to see *some* counters (read only) but that's about it. not even event streams are being mapped to the obd port's router arm anymore - by anyone who knows anything about locking down a car. they are learning - but auto makers often have an unbalance of skill sets. like most cheap-assed companies (car companies are the cheapest! sheesh. but I digress) they want to spend as little as possible and in some vendors, it really shows.
but for doing more than clearing dtc's and
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a good car will be a locked down car
How does the dealer diagnose/fix the car? (Hint: There are more ports on most cars than OBD.) That's how aftermarket shops can read and if necessary update the systems.
Completely lock the ECU down? Then what? Scrap the module just to fix a bug?
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Your position sounds reasonable at first, but I'm not buying it. For one thing - what is the point of preventing read access? Experience has shown time and again that security by obscurity does NOT work and open systems always end up more secure in the long run. All the systems in the car should be open source, so anyone can look for bugs and backdoors and be sure that your car is working for you, not against you. Otherwise the first thing I'm going to do with a new car is find and disable all antennas.
For
Virginia? (Score:2)
AFAIK, Virginia law prohibits law enforcement access to this data already.
Re:Virginia? (Score:5, Insightful)
That just means they can't use it in a court of law. In the meantime, they will use to the data for parallel construction and won't even need the car data for the court room.
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That just means they can't use it in a court of law. In the meantime, they will use to the data for parallel construction and won't even need the car data for the court room.
Parallel construction isn't necessarily easy. If the defense can plausibly argue that the police found the other information because of the clues given them by the data they weren't legally allowed to obtain, then all of it will be thrown out as "fruit of the poisoned tree".
The Tesla Beagle Boys (Score:2)
...are not amused.
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They won't care. They are all millionaires...
Sorry Teslanaires
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/bus... [bbc.co.uk]
Let's hope so (Score:2)
Considering the number of people I saw in our recent snow storm driving without headlights on, the number of people I see without headlights on (or any lights at all) when it's dark, the number of people I see on cell phones making a turn who all but drive into the oncoming lane because they're trying to turn the wheel with one hand, I would hope the police are using all available resources to cite these people when they cause an accident.
It's bad enough the SUV and minivan drivers aren't being ticketed for
Re:Let's hope so (Score:5, Insightful)
Get a dashcam. You'll be glad you did.
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It's bad enough the SUV and minivan drivers aren't being ticketed for not cleaning off their roofs after a snow
That's how I get rid of tailgaters. Just reach up and punch the fiberglass roof of my FJ40. Big hunk of snow breaks loose. Plop!
I'm increasingly pleased about my hobby (Score:5, Funny)
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OLD CARS (Score:2, Insightful)
Will be illegal soon.
If you think that "no car sold after 2030 will be powered by fossil fuels" won't quickly escalate.. you don't know your communist/socialist history.
The CCP loves this. You will too.
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I doubt it. It won't be necessary.
The fossil fuel industry is going to collapse spectacularly and messily at some point in the future. No industry contracts without massive issues. That's what's going to get rid of the old cars. The $20/gallon boutique gas that you can only get 1000 gallons at a time will doom the old cars.
Once more people move to electric, the least profitable gas station chains will fail. The least profitable refineries and distribution networks will go under. And all the people who used
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Old cars are unsafe trash. They are death traps compared to modern cars. You're free to prioritize vehicle features how you want, but I'm betting there's a better chance of some drunk/cell users hitting you then security forces using you for quota. Also tons of good and entertaining video out there of folks crashing old trash into new trash to demonstrate that point.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=old+... [duckduckgo.com]
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Too bad "cash for clunkers" got rid of
You worded that in the past tense. It's still going on [carsforkids.org].
Is it time to get a new car? (Score:2)
If you're criminals, you should.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
Re:Is it time to get a new car? (Score:4)
governments make people criminals for various reasons, for example if they want to close a case quickly, or if they don't like the legal but embarrassing activities someone is doing.
Like that whistleblower in Florida about COVID data, they raided her house and pointed guns at her children. If you give a government a potential means to do evil they will.
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Like that whistleblower in Florida about COVID data, they raided her house and pointed guns at her children. If you give an asshole the authority to do evil they will.
FTFY. IMO most problems with the government are due to the sociopaths we elect, rather than the embodiment of government in the first place. Anarchy is not a solution.
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Anarchy isn't a solution, but the system is designed to facilitate sociopaths rising to control it. One of the features that causes this is that they are more rewarded by the power it gives them, so they're more willing to put up with the downsides.
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Bertrand Russell said, "In an elected government the only people who will want the position are those who are in it for the money, or those who are in it for the power. Of course those are two types of people who should not be in charge. What we need is a system to give the job to someone who doesn't want it." (Of course he said it much more eloquently, but I can't find the original quote.)
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Yeah, I've thought about that often.
The problem is how you filter out people who are entirely unfit for the job before randomly picking someone who's qualified. While people will joke and say that someone with an intellectual disability would be preferable to our current elected officials, in reality you need a fairly deep and complex understanding of the world to make good legislative decisions.
A second issue is how you make people go do that job. I would not want it. I would be good at it, I imagine, as I
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Anarchy isn't a solution, but the system is designed to facilitate sociopaths rising to control it. One of the features that causes this is that they are more rewarded by the power it gives them, so they're more willing to put up with the downsides.
I completely agree with this. As a candidate for public office you will have most everything you have ever done in your life, including high school, turned upside-down, shook around, and cast in the most negative light possible. If they don't find enough wrong, they make shit up, and it's on you to contest it. That actually works more in their favor because the energy you have to spend contesting made up shit is energy you can't spend on your actual messaging. Who wants that in their life?
However, I look at
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If it's a predictable result, then it's a system design fault. Assigning blame is not a worthwhile exercise, and is irrelevant to any solution.
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So someone points out government does evil things and needs to be limited, and you think someone is advocating anarchy? Power and money grubbing scum are drawn to political careers, they need to be on very tight and short leash.
No way to avoid surveillance (Score:5, Insightful)
Snoop heavy (Score:2)
I'd challenge this under Constitutional "unreasonable search and seizure" which is often interpreted as a right to privacy. Cars are daily infrastructure. And sue the data collector for civil damages for collecting without permission.
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I'd challenge this under Constitutional "unreasonable search and seizure" which is often interpreted as a right to privacy.
I would expect the cops to get a warrant, whch renders the unreasonable search and seizure argument moot.
Cars are daily infrastructure. And sue the data collector for civil damages for collecting without permission.
the counter would be the car is operating as designed so even f you did not know what data it was collecting your use of the vehicl eis implied consent to collect the data; and the data may simply be stored locally so there is no 3rd party collection.
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"implied consent" is too open-ended. Common consumer devices should have assumed protections against snooping features. I can see practical value in having a black box that records the last five minutes, but not hours.
While I agree, absent legal protections it's probably how it woul dgo. I would add that in the event of an accident it saves data for 5 minures before and after the accident. Th e flip side is it could also establish who's at fault or innocence.
Re: Snoop heavy (Score:2)
Explicit problem?
Like a non-obedient citizen?
Or like you being one of the "groups" that are "picking quarrels"/"suspected terrorist acquainces"?
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You're assuming the data even belongs to you. If it belongs to a car company then you have no expectation of privacy. And cars are not rights - that's why drivers license laws can be as arbitrary as you like.
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Vehicles that are outside your garage are in the public view, and there is no right to privacy when one is in a public place. Thousands of adulterers caught in the back seat demonstrate that very well. If you had a right to privacy within your vehicle no one would ever be caught smoking a joint or drinking a beer while driving.
You have nothing to fear ... (Score:2)
Of course there will be no DA under the gun to close some cases ...
No cop looking for a chance to curry favor with the police captain ...
There will be no for profit prison industry [wikipedia.org] bribing judges to get more prisoners ....
And of course whatever religion, ethnicity, nationality, social class you belong has never been targeted for mob justice ....
So you have nothing to worry about if you have not done anything wrong....
Of course you have something to fear! (Score:2)
"Wrong" is whatever doesn't follow the rules I just made up retroactively, to "find" something in your six written lines.
Signed,
Cardinal Richelieu
Inquisitor
(It's about what they want to *find*. It always was.)
Glad I only need a bicycle. (Score:2)
And the occasional heavy goods taxi ($25 around here, for a full large van).
Yes, I made sure my phone's GPS is actually off. No GApps either.
Why do the manufacturers go to all this trouble? (Score:2)
They can make a small fortune from the data (Score:2)
But this doesn’t even scratch the surface.
Your car knows where you go and when you go there.
It can have a rough idea of the number of passengers, pulling data from door locks, vehicle weight, seat belt settings, etc.
It can identify wireless devices that pair with its own services and therefore may be able t
Where is the reset button? (Score:2)
I want to be able to periodically delete all collected data, especially before taking it into the shop.
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Hopefully once tracking is mandatory , that will be equivalent to turning off the transponder in a plane, car get flagged, stopped and license suspended/revoked.
Re: The Panopticon is here (Score:5, Informative)
In my car I just had to replace the head unit. Ford stores driving history in the infotainment unit and is downloaded when you go to a service center. No stereo == no driving history (plus I get a cool 13in lcd at the same time). Your black box still exists in the nvram in your Airbag module, which stores 5-10min of driving history when a crash is detected. Nothing you can do to avoid that except donâ(TM)t give up control of your car. You could damage your odb-2 port to avoid street cops from downloading the data but forensics will pull it every time.
Re:The Panopticon is here (Score:5, Interesting)
ob disc: I work in the field (smart cars, embeded, can/lin, etc).
expect the industry to start to encrypt wire comms (maybe not lin, but CAN and ethernet for sure; with CAN going away over time and being replaced by automotive ethernet (called 'broad-r-reach').
images are digitally signed and secure booted. the math holds, as long as the devs don't do stupid things when coding it up.
and don't expect user extensions or api's - no car vendor wants to take risk like that (I actually asked our ceo that, once, before I got clued to how much is at stake, if cars get hacked).
as an open source guy, I hate the idea of a locked-down digital thing that I own. but working in the field, I see the other side of it and I'm actually for encrypting and signing things to stop 'bad actors'. even if the owner feels he loses some rights.
locking down embedded systems that are surrounded by thousands of pounds of metal, that move at lethal force - yes, we want to lock it all down as much as we can.
some companies are slower to catch on than others. tesla is slow to catch on, for some crazy reason. I think they tend to hire younger kids (I've heard this directly) and so they just don't know better. other places have more experienced engineers. but ultimately it comes from the top and if the ceo understands the security implications (most dont) then you'll see a more locked down car.
once enough people get their history read out from crashed cars' eeproms and flash, maybe once a powerful person is hurt by data leakage, things will becomre mandated by law. until then, its a wild west and most vendors, sad to say, are not very good at what they do (again, I work in the field and I see horrors all the time).
Re: The Panopticon is here (Score:2)
Your car modules are encrypted. Your ECU probably requires a shitty DES or RC4 key because your ecu was designed over a decade ago. Current cars have solved this problem, like good luck breaking BMW Audi or Mercedes encryption. But other manufacturers are catching up. Ford/Lincoln uses a SHA256 encryption on their current 2020 lineup. It doesnâ(TM)t look like Honda or Acura has upgraded. So YMMV
Re: The Panopticon is here (Score:5, Insightful)
Current cars have solved this problem, like good luck breaking BMW Audi or Mercedes encryption.
See, for me the strength of the encryption is not the issue. The issue is that the data is collected and stored, freely accessible to auto mechanics, the car maker, police and who knows who else.
The data should not be collected at all, or, if it is, collection should be opt-in, and the data should be stored locally. Moreover, the car owner should be able to delete it whenever he wants. Access to the data should only be possible with the owner's accord or else with a search warrant duly signed by a judge.
Even more: insurance companies should not be allowed to rise your fees if you refuse to give them access to the vehicle data (or conversely, offer discounts if you do).
Re: The Panopticon is here (Score:5, Interesting)
The data should not be collected at all, or, if it is, collection should be opt-in
lets hope that what china does, does not happen here.
china mandates all e-cars upload telemetry every 3 seconds or so (in that order of mag).
scary? yes! but I fear that shit will come here, eventually. because, the politicians and other control-freaks will NEVER turn down surveillance streams that they can get essentially for free.
this is the down side of my industry and I have to say, I don't like this particular trend. in europe, they won't put up with this, but its a fact in china, I bet it will happen in india and I am sure it will slowly happen in the US if we are not super vigilent. even then, if those that 'own the infra' decide to do this and make all vendors comply (how it works in china) then you won't have ANY choice; all vendors will 'have to'.
connected cars, with mics and cameras and lte - its both a good and a bad thing.
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That for a long time has been an objection against a lot of data gathering. DRM and anonimizatoin slow down access to data but the whole architecture and the whole data set is collected and eventually only some small access right has to be switched.
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citation needed.
the ecu's I've worked on are not encrypted, not in the least.
there are hundreds of ecu's in a car and most are small boxes that don't have huge cpus, ram or even secure boot.
no, the state of things is that, by default, encryption is not on the wire, in most cars.
Re: The Panopticon is here (Score:2)
Go lookup what happens when you change your headlight housing on a bmw 3 series. Go try to hex edit ford as-built module firmware.
Encryption on the canbus is already here breh
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The young and the fearless, may be clueless, of the auto companies.
But they are equally reckless in rolling out updates with just perfunctory unit testing. So they might actually encrypt the data faster than others, especially if they think competition is sniffing them through these logs and reports.
Re:The Panopticon is here (Score:4, Informative)
Over six years I've received over 50 Tesla software updates. Never a problem with any of them so they must have received more than "perfunctory testing".
Re:The Panopticon is here (Score:5, Insightful)
This should be a big sign that vendors are doing it completely wrong, and violating every principle of security that we know about. There's absolutely no reason the bus between engine components needs to be encrypted, nor any reason it should be remotely exploitable. There's zero reason to have anything to do with the engine, braking system, air bags, etc, connected to the internet and any remotely-exploitable system. Why anyone thought having the infotainment system with it's always-on internet connection sharing the same bus as the engine is beyond me. This problem of "bad actors" is a problem entirely of the car makers' creation.
Sure encryption can solve this problem at a huge cost of privacy and freedom, but we shouldn't have had the problem to begin with!
The mind boggles.
Re:The Panopticon is here (Score:5, Interesting)
> Why anyone thought having the infotainment system with it's always-on internet connection sharing the same bus as the engine is beyond me.
Probably because so many head units are outsourced and its the easiest way to add software-based vehicle functionality. Plus this way they can lock in car buyers to their supplied head unit and differentiate trim levels with a few check boxes which unlock more features in the same head unit.
I sure which there was a totally standardized API/data format and set of form factors for head units which would allow any third party head unit of the appropriate form factor to drop into a car without losing proprietary functionality or major surgery to make it fit. Boats have NMEA2000 which isn't awesome but at least its a usable standard.
OEM head unit makers have little incentive to deliver a good product and with car buyers having no replacement options or alternatives, car makers have little incentive to hold the head unit OEMs to any standard. It's a good example of a market failure.
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If Nintendo, Apple, Sony (on Playstation) etc. all can have jailbreaks, I'm sure BMW will as well.
Re:The Panopticon is here (Score:4, Interesting)
as an open source guy, I hate the idea of a locked-down digital thing that I own. but working in the field, I see the other side of it and I'm actually for encrypting and signing things to stop 'bad actors'. even if the owner feels he loses some rights.
"If you can't see the sucker, it's you."
This really is not a good trade-off, it is an admission that you are unfit to make this thing work properly. So the bad actor is you, possibly your employer and the other manufacturers "in the field". On the same scale that the people who tried to "secure the web" fucked up massively by picking PKI, moving power to commercial entities they ought not have. Why? Because developers like shallowly showing off their cleverness, but are fundamentally lazy beyond coming up with oh so clever outlandish program structures that don't work very well. Actually securing websites turned out to have some seriously prickly problems, and them SMRT kids picked "let's build a trust tree!" because as soon as they have to impose any sort of order their usual irreverence to authority turns them into the strictest hierarchists imaginable. Because suddenly they are the authority and they like lazy easy top-down structures.
Look, "secure boot" and all that rot has nothing to do with security, but everything with control. If you sell me a thing, like a car, full of encryption yet that I then don't have the encryption keys to, I have no control. Therefore, I don't actually own it. Therefore, you bamboozled me. That you, in your own words, think that is a reasonable trade-off means many things, all bad. On the kinder end of the spectrum it means you do not actually understand what you're advocating. A little less kind is the conclusion that you support bamboozling customers, and beyond that lies obvious malice. Like I said, the bad actor is you.
The end result, at best, is a polished turd. If you really want to fix this, back to the drawing board you go. First, though, think about why this is needed so you can explain to your colleagues and bosses. The time to do this is now, because once the bad structure is in place, replacing it with something less bad is nigh impossible.
Again, see PKI. Or even, see airplanes and ships, where privacy has already been designed out. They didn't even try to retain any sort of privacy at all. Now imagine that sort of no privacy for anyone on every single car, and see that state of affairs locked down hard with encryption keys the manufacturer kept out of their customers' hands, but of course gave freely to just about anyone else who cared to ask, starting with the government.
At least you can build a nice cartrack24 dot com out if it, hey. Now anyone anywhere in the world can track any car regardless of where it is on the planet. Progress!
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tesla is slow to catch on, for some crazy reason. I think they tend to hire younger kids (I've heard this directly) and so they just don't know better. other places have more experienced engineers. but ultimately it comes from the top and if the ceo understands the security implications (most dont) then you'll see a more locked down car.
I am in the security field (multiple roles these days), and that is what I have seen as a consultant: The real trick is to make it clear to the people that make the decisions how naked they are. Once you have done that, things move. If you fail to do that, you may have the occasional really competent engineer that gets it despite not being a security person, but efforts by such people always stay limited.
once enough people get their history read out from crashed cars' eeproms and flash, maybe once a powerful person is hurt by data leakage, things will becomre mandated by law. until then, its a wild west and most vendors, sad to say, are not very good at what they do (again, I work in the field and I see horrors all the time).
That most enterprises (the larger, the worse things are) are not very good at what they do is something
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so I'm sure even with all you're saying someone will find ways to hack those systems so those of us who value our privacy can have all that data erased if we like.
those don't have to be (and should not be) connected.
the fact that there isn't a really good 'reformat entirely to factory-ship condition' is a sloppy design flaw, not a physical or logical limitation.
and teslas have been pulled from junkyards and their user data was not hard to get to. incompetance is what I call it, but people have to vote with
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I also don't believe any of this crap about it being made 'illegal' to do something like th
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I have always been able to do a "factory reset" on my Tesla. Standard procedure when you sell it. Deletes all personal information. It's just a menu option.
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sorry to say, you have NO IDEA what you are talking about.
I've heard from people in the security group, at work, who have direct knowledge of what lies in nvram inside a junked tesla.
no, sir, there is NO CURRENT WAY an end-user can ERASE all data inside flash. its just not true even though you think you know everything.
and its why 'encryption at rest' is important. tesla has not learned that, and its a FACT.
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I said I can erase all personal data (phone, location, music, navigation, etc.).
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Walking everywhere will not help (Score:2)
Face ID cameras are everywhere. As are number plate cameras that will track that old truck you managed to buy. And every passing car also tracks you, walking or driving.
And if, somehow, you managed to avoid all this, there would be a you sized hole in the infosphere which would make you stand out to the spooks.
When computers eventually become truly intelligent (many decades from now) we will have given them all the tools to control us. We won't even be able to open a car door without their permission.
Sor
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You can also attempt
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For now, simplest solution is to buy old cars. The tech is recent, so anything from 2010 and earlier would not have it ...
Holding on to my 2001 Honda Civic EX (127k miles) and 2002 Honda CR-V EX (55k miles), both still in excellent condition ...
Also noting that many (most?) new(er) cars come with key-less ignition, which I despise.
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Curious, why?
Key fobs are bigger and more inconvenient to carry than the keys (I carry one for each car) and have batteries, aren't waterproof, etc -- like the separate door fobs I have now and have never (rarely) used over the past 19 years. The only times I would have liked to use my key-less entry is when it was/is raining really hard, but I get over it.
Keys are simple and have never failed or really inconvenienced me.
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Re:The Panopticon is here (Score:4, Insightful)
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It's getting a lot more common in the EU now, spreading west quickly. Coming soon to a parking lot near you!
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Re:The Panopticon is here (Score:4, Interesting)
The most common way it's done is to have one person go around the victim's house while the other guy stands next to the car. They have relay devices. If the fob has been left somewhere near an outside wall, it will be close enough for the more sensitive relay unit to communicate and allow the car to unlock and start.
Losing proximity won't turn the car off (safety reasons), so they can drive it to either a garage or onto a flatbed a short drive away.
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I'll worry about that when we actually go down the slippery slope. Right now, at the top of the slope and not being criminal scum it doesn't bother me and I salute the police for their ingenuity.
If we ever actually get to the dystopia people always seem to imagine in these articles, I'll worry about it then - e.g. if they use it to find speeders or political dissenters or whatever. But the thing about slippery slopes I've notices is that usually they stay pretty straight and stable and you never really hit
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Like I said, if it comes to that I'll worry about it then.
And don't worry, unless you're fucking your sister in your car they won't be using this method to track you down. Instead, they will probably use genetics to track down the reason behind your nephew-son's polydactylism and microcephaly.
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And don't worry, unless you're fucking your sister in your car
OT: that reminds me, is it yet possible to directly buy a tesla in texas?
sorry for the interruption. carry on.
Re:The Panopticon is here (Score:5, Interesting)
1. Warranty voiding modification. Warranty claims for anything above few 100 quid are now accompanied by a download of your driving history. I am speaking out of experience. My truck had a misdiagnosed fault at the end of the summer where all 4 injectors were suspect. The manufacturer asked for a download of the driving data for analysis.
2. Insurance voiding modification. I am wishing you all the best if you ever go to court and the court will be presented with the fact that you deliberately wiped out all of your driving data. Being blacklisted by all insurers after that will be the mere icing on the cake on top of the conviction.
3. For commercial drivers - criminal conviction outright and loss of license. Half of the police forces in Europe (Germany and Austria for sure) use this to verify that tachometers and speed limiters are not tampered with. Download tachometer data, download truck data, compare and check. Standard procedure regularly applied to trucks from countries known for "compliance issues"
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Warranty voiding modification = going to an non dealer place for any service hell will some try an error 53 like apple did as well?
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Warranty voiding modification = going to an non dealer place for any service hell will some try an error 53 like apple did as well?
No, you will be paying for all parts and all labour even if your vehicle is still under manufacturer warranty. If you have bought from one of the manufacturers which throw in free service, that is voided too.
You will also have to drive with a Christmas lights show on your dashboard. Everything that can glow red will glow red and everything that can glow yellow will glow yellow. So if you ever get a real fault you will not notice it until it's too late.You can complain for all you wish, nobody will be list
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drive out side the market area an pay up to $15/meg in roaming fees.
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2. Fuck them, I won't have insurance from any company that violates my privacy by tracking me everywhere.
3. Not a commecial driver, don't care.
I intend to FIGHT for my right to privacy. I do NOT want to live in a world where every goddamned fucking step I take is tracked and logged and you shouldn't either!
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Get in to hot-rodding and restoration. It's the only way to be sure. Your mileage will suck, but ain't none of that crap in a '57 Chevy or an old Boss Mustang to start with; so you don't have to worry if you got it all. Maybe you don't like the old throaty roar of a V-8 and want to try being at least a little bit green. There are other options. Nash Metro for the lulz.
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gas cars?
lol. just lol.
get with the program.
(ever test drive a tesla, btw? I know of no gas-guys who tried one and wasn't immediately converted from gas to electric).
I used to think gas was cool. then I tried the 0-60 of what we have today (and it gets better all the time). supercar g-force and lower cent of gravity than anything short of an italian $200k+ racer.
you gas die-hards are funny. and boring, actually.
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There's a drop-in replacement electric motor now.
https://spectrum.ieee.org/cars... [ieee.org]
Not sure how well the drive train would handle that kind of acceleration, though.
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I'm not a gas die-hard. I'll be happy to buy electric when I find one that doesn't phone home, comes at a decent price, has styling and other features that don't suck, and makes more economic sense than continuing to maintain my existing ICE vehicle.
Perhaps you're ignoring the context within which my post was written--that of finding ways to avoid being subject to surveillance in your car. It was all a bit tongue in cheek. The Nash Metro reference was your clue.
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Get in to hot-rodding and restoration.
Not everyone is rich with a massive amount of time on their hands, and ample garage space for tools and parts. Your suggestion is akin to someone saying they don't want to eat GMO foods and you suggesting that they start their own farm.
"Getting into" that involves a shitton of tools and expertise, and the cost is prohibitive for most. The time-sink is likely even more prohibitive. Think about what it would take in time, equipment, and knowledge to pull an engine and re-bore it. What's someone supposed to be
Re:How is this legal per privacy laws? (Score:4, Informative)
I didn't consent.
All drivers licenses will now come with an EULA that stipulates by using or having access to a road maintained by local, state, and/or federal funds you thereby authorize applicable law enforcement agencies under their jurisdiction to access diagnostic and other data held within your car.
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I didn't consent. I absolutely have an expectation of privacy in my car. I don't care if the data is "anonymized" - I opt out. Additionally there is no ongoing contract between me and the manufacturer, so I also expect there to be no data transmissions between the car and the manufacturer once I own it.
I'm guessing the counter argument would be the car is operating as designed, and even if you are unaware of it's data collection, your operation of the vehicle is implied consent to collect the data since that is what it was designed to do. Not that I necessarilly agree with that argument, but it would seem to be a logical one to make.
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A lot of this data will not be transmitted, but stored locally in the car. With a warrant, the police could get access to it.
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Unless you're driving your car around inside your garage you have no 'expectation of privacy' since every street and road is a public place. Maybe if you got a self-driving car and put shades on all the windows you might be able to expect privacy while you're inside it, but the car itself is driving around in public in front of hundreds of cameras so its route is not protected in any way.
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67 Chevy Impalas are RIDICULOUSLY expensive. Thanks in no small part to Supernatural. I mean, they were always on the high side of classic cars, but Supernatural put them out of reach of most of us mere mortals.
My grandparents had two seventies era Chevy Impalas. Those models are still available relatively cheap in comparison and don't have all the computerized bullshit we're talking about here.