US Asks Tesla To Recall 158,000 Vehicles For Touchscreen Failures (reuters.com) 137
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Reuters: The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) on Wednesday asked Tesla to recall 158,000 Model S and Model X vehicles over media control unit (MCU) failures that could pose safety risks by leading to touchscreen displays not working. The auto safety agency made the unusual request in a formal letter to Tesla after upgrading a safety probe in November, saying it had tentatively concluded the 2012-2018 Model S and 2016-2018 Model X vehicles "contain a defect related to motor vehicle safety."
The Tesla vehicles that lose touchscreen use may see driver assistance Autopilot system and turn signal functionality impacted due to potential loss of audible chimes, driver sensing, and alerts associated with these vehicle functions, NHTSA said. It added that loss of alerts tied to systems like Autopilot "increases the risk of a crash occurring because drivers may be unaware of system malfunctions." Touchscreen failures result in drivers being unable to use windshield defogging and defrosting systems that "may decrease the driver's visibility in inclement weather, increasing the risk of crash." NHTSA noted that "Tesla has implemented several over-the-air updates in an attempt to mitigate some of the issues ... but tentatively believes these updates are procedurally and substantively insufficient." It noted that under law "vehicle manufacturers are required to conduct recalls to remedy safety-related defects." NHTSA said in November it reviewed 12,523 claims and complaints about the issue, which would impact roughly 8% of the vehicles under investigation.
The Tesla vehicles that lose touchscreen use may see driver assistance Autopilot system and turn signal functionality impacted due to potential loss of audible chimes, driver sensing, and alerts associated with these vehicle functions, NHTSA said. It added that loss of alerts tied to systems like Autopilot "increases the risk of a crash occurring because drivers may be unaware of system malfunctions." Touchscreen failures result in drivers being unable to use windshield defogging and defrosting systems that "may decrease the driver's visibility in inclement weather, increasing the risk of crash." NHTSA noted that "Tesla has implemented several over-the-air updates in an attempt to mitigate some of the issues ... but tentatively believes these updates are procedurally and substantively insufficient." It noted that under law "vehicle manufacturers are required to conduct recalls to remedy safety-related defects." NHTSA said in November it reviewed 12,523 claims and complaints about the issue, which would impact roughly 8% of the vehicles under investigation.
Unusual? (Score:5, Informative)
The auto safety agency made the unusual request in a formal letter to Tesla after upgrading a safety probe in November,
It's not unusual for the NHTSA to request that automakers make recalls. It might seem unusual for them to request a recall of touchscreens, but it isn't really and everything you need to know to understand that is right after the above in TFS:
It is not at all unusual for the NHTSA to request recalls over safety issues. It's not about a touchscreen. It's about the computer that drives it being used for safety-related functions.
Re:Unusual? (Score:5, Informative)
From the TFA: It is unusual because all other automakers comply voluntarily with NHTSA recall requests.
Tesla did not want to comply to the request so they had to take the unusual steps of forcing them through a formal letter.
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They have to replace the whole computer that drives the touchscreen. If it was just touchscreens then it would be no big deal by comparison.
But they were cheap and it fucked them, and they deserve to have to pay.
Re:Unusual? (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't make shitty design decisions, and you won't have shitty recalls. They chose to put storage that would not survive for the expected lifetime of the vehicle inside a non-serviceable component, which means the whole god damn system has to be replaced instead of a $50 SSD.
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whole god damn system has to be replaced instead of a $50 SSD.
If only they had used something so advanced. They used an undersized SD card without sufficient spare capacity for wear-leveling.
Re:Unusual? (Score:5, Interesting)
Tesla operates a bit differently than other auto makers. They run more like a software company, that happens to also build cars for their software to run on.
This doesn't mean that Tesla Cars are bad, or the Cars are an afterthought. But when they get reports of such problems, they are thinking in a software mindset, there is a problem fix the software. If there is an issue with the hardware, make the software work around the problem. Traditional Automakers think in terms parts. So if there is a problem with a part replace it, don't work around it. NHTSA is thinking like a traditional auto maker, replace it with a better part vs working around it.
I am not saying NHTSA is wrong, they actually may be giving the best advice to Tesla. But I expect Tesla waited for the order, to see if they can fix it in software first without having to get the order.
This reminds me way back in my undergrad days, I majored in Computer Science (which my college had its CS program focus around software) however a required course was a 100 level Computer Engineering Class in Digital System Logic. In which we had to actually wire electronics together. It was a mostly fun class, except for the fact the professor had trouble going in order, which made precise binary logic a laborious class. But the class had mostly all Computer Engineers, except for Myself and my Lab Partner who was also a CS major. Our lab had us working with an embedded adder, where before we just dealt with basic gates. Neither of us knew that we needed to have all the connectors properly connected to the chip, including multiple grounds. So the chip wasn't giving us the output that was documented... However it was a predictable outcome. So after checking a couple other chips, we calculated what we needed to help with the output, we got a bunch of logic gates and built a workaround to give us the result. We were thinking like Computer Scientist in the 1990's expecting the documentation to be bad, and work around it with extra logic. Only to have the professor look at us like we were from out of space and told us that you needed to ground that pin.
That nostalgic rant was to help illustrate how software folks vs hardware folks think of problems and solutions differently.
Re:Unusual? (Score:5, Informative)
You can't work around the storage device (flash chip) becoming non-functional due to wearing out. 99% of the vehicles out there will be *well* on their way to the chip becoming defective, therefore a software fix is years too late.
Therefore the solution is to replace the hardware. NTHSA knows this. Tesla can't work around something that's already been worn out, especially when the chip is crucial to the computer being able to function from the safety aspect.
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Actually you can.
First if they reevaluate their write process, reducing unnecessary writes, and managing rewrites to be more efficient. So say a flash disk that may be at 90% of failing, the software update could add a decade of life on it, because it doesn't need to use it as much.
Second, back in the good old days, Magnetic Media was strongly prone to corruption, where corrupted sectors were blocked off and skipped from trying to read and write from. This too was done by mostly on the software level.
You
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You should not have been down modded, you are correct, Tesla has even said they will replace the worn out eMMC chips free of charge if they determine it to be worn out, but this is only a temporary solution.
GP was not down modded. They posted AC and therefore start with a true 0 mod.
As other posters have noted, they already are switching out eMMC on cars that are exhibiting failure symptoms and have patched the system to mitigate some of the additional writes to it that were not as necessary.
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As other posters have noted, they already are switching out eMMC on cars that are exhibiting failure symptoms and have patched the system to mitigate some of the additional writes to it that were not as necessary.
None of which addresses the problem with affected vehicles which have not yet shown symptoms, and which may still lose audible safety alerts due to this feature. Teslas are notably difficult to get serviced due to their overt hostility towards third party repair services, so the user might be without these features for long periods.
Tesla needs to recall all affected vehicles, and think long and hard about how they break up safety features across hardware in the vehicle, especially if they're going to go che
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It's not just the eMMC. That's the tip of the iceberg.
My car has a software version that is capable of recognizing eMMC failures and reporting it to the user, i.e. the problems I've seen are presumably *not* caused by an eMMC failure. Based on what I'm seeing on my car, Tesla isn't doing a very good job of maintaining the software on the first-generation media control unit (MCU1) at all.
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It sounds like they really are the Apple of cars. Why is Apple even talking again about going into the car business, clearly their niche is already full.
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Aside from the fact that it was obvious they couldn't fix the issue in software from day one (work out flash memory), people expect cars to last more than a few years. In countries with better consumer protection laws those alone would require Tesla to so the fix for free, or at least contribute the bulk of the cost.
They are just trying to avoid spending a lot of money on old cars, and being forced to give out free upgrades because they don't have enough refurb MCU V1 units for everyone.
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Did a software company touch you when you were a kid or something?
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From the TFA: It is unusual because all other automakers comply voluntarily with NHTSA recall requests.
Tesla did not want to comply to the request so they had to take the unusual steps of forcing them through a formal letter.
Technically, this is a voluntary recall. NHTSA has issued a formal request for Tesla to perform a voluntary recall. If they do not choose to do so, NHTSA can take further steps to force a recall.
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Unusual does not mean unprecedented.
Re:Unusual? (Score:4)
Which is not what GP said.
Regardless, it is not unusual for the NHTSA to request a recall.
It's unusual for a company to refuse.
But that is not the same thing.
Words have meanings. Use them. That means you, GP commenter, person who wrote the article, and everyone else too.
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It's unusual because, as TFA notes, automakers usually voluntarily agree to the recall. In this case Tesla is disputing the need for one so the NHTSA sent them a formal letter which they must now respond to.
Tesla has wanted to avoid a recall because it will be extremely expensive, those MCU units are not cheap and a considerable amount of labour is involved in swapping them. Also they don't have enough old ones to avoid giving people free upgrades that they could otherwise charge for.
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Amazing that the article isn't being specific about what the issue actually is.
All Tesla MCUs have onboard eMMC flash memory. Old MCUs (up to 2018) had rather small eMMC buffers with limited write cycles, while new ones have much larger buffers, with greater max write cycles. While the MCU flash has always been designed to last the life of the vehicle, the vehicles were logging more than had been anticipated by the MCU designers, which was wearing out some of the flash prematurely (the number which had worn
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It's not share value that matters but how much cash can Tesla lay its hands on to finance the recall. They will have to find (probably, I don't know the costs) hundreds of millions of dollars, which I guess is why they are reluctant.
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Tesla is flush with cash (was $14,5B at the end of Q3, significantly higher now). The cost of replacing every single MCU in every S/X up to 2018, even with the worst possible assumptions, all at once, would be well under $1B.
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The main issue is that Tesla sees a recall as simply unnecessary. They patched the problem that was causing excessive logging (long ago), it never applied to newer MCUs at all, they've extended the warranty on the eMMC, and monitor for read errors to request that users schedule a replacement if one is detected. As far as they're concerned, that's the right solution.
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The main issue is that Tesla sees a recall as simply unnecessary
Simply expensive, you mean. They may be able to afford it, but spending money they don't have to is both undesirable up front and also may affect share price, which is based primarily upon the cult of Muskiness.
They patched the problem that was causing excessive logging (long ago),
Which doesn't reverse the wear caused.
it never applied to newer MCUs at all,
OK, so say you won't replace those units, not all units.
they've extended the warranty on the eMMC
Which doesn't stop the problem from occurring.
and monitor for read errors to request that users schedule a replacement if one is detected.
Does it detect when the part has mapped out a bunch of bad blocks automatically?
There's good reason for Tesla to refuse to replace units which were not affected,
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Every physical thing on Earth accumulates damage over time. Saying that "because something can accumulate damage over time" (like flash) means that it inherently should be replaced when there's no problem is an argument you can apply to anything on Earth. No, you can't just reverse damage from past flash writes. But you can certainly adjust the write rate to minimize the risk of future failures - which is what they did. And relative to the "risk" (e.g., IF it fails, AND problems are experienced before the
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Every physical thing on Earth accumulates damage over time.
True, but irrelevant. This is about unnecessarily accelerated damage due to programmer error and process failure.
Saying that "because something can accumulate damage over time" (like flash) means that it inherently should be replaced when there's no problem is an argument you can apply to anything on Earth.
There's your parser failing again. I can't help but think that this time it's intentional, though. The affected devices have untimely, excessive wear, even if they have not yet exhibited symptoms.
But you can certainly adjust the write rate to minimize the risk of future failures - which is what they did. And relative to the "risk" (e.g., IF it fails, AND problems are experienced before the warning leads the user to schedule a replacement, AND they get a crash, THEN they won't be able to hear their turn signals or activate defrosters for about 15 seconds), replacing every single one that has no problem seems disproportionate.
No, it seems exactly proportionate. Tesla made a fuckup which affects safety features, on top of their design fuckup of putting safety features into the infotainment system. If they didn't want the audio
we need to come down befor self drive need paid up (Score:2)
we need to come down before self drive need paid updates each year for say maps / and other data or your car will stop working.
And stop other bs like you must come to the dealer for an $250 1TB ssd + $100 install + $20 shop fee to load maps 2025 on your car or self drive may not work do to lack of data.
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More concerning than the price per share, which is effectively meaningless, would be if they can actually source enough of the computers to deal with the recall in an effective manner.
I don't imagine they have 100k of these things just laying around.
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For as long as this problem has been in the news, they could have started up a new manufacturing line and made all of these by now.
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The main symptoms of eMMC failure, in case anyone cares, were 1) occasional reboots / crashes (effect: screen goes black for 15 seconds or so.
Yours still takes only 15 seconds to reboot? When mine reboots, the Tesla logo doesn't even appear for at least two or three minutes, and I'm pretty sure it has been this way since version 8 (late 2018).
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Is there a separate, independent instrument panel?
Yes, except in the model 3, which has only the one screen. The 3 is not affected by this problem, although it may well share the same poor design of a socketed storage module. (these days it's not expensive to put the device in a socket, and there are automotive sockets with positive retention.)
Separation (Score:2, Insightful)
So... functions which are driving-critical are not separated from the touchscreen entertainment unit... and it came back to bite you.
Sorry, but this is literally one of my biggest bugbears with Tesla. My few-year-old Ford has entirely separated system for this... I know, because the entertainment system crashed while I was driving, and I lost entertainment, satnav, bluetooth and the aircon. And that's ALL. I still had full control at all times, I still had heaters, braking, dashboard, monitoring function
Re:Separation (Score:5, Informative)
So... functions which are driving-critical are not separated from the touchscreen entertainment unit... and it came back to bite you.
Sorry, but this is literally one of my biggest bugbears with Tesla. My few-year-old Ford has entirely separated system for this... I know, because the entertainment system crashed while I was driving, and I lost entertainment, satnav, bluetooth and the aircon. And that's ALL. I still had full control at all times, I still had heaters, braking, dashboard, monitoring functions, power steering, braking, stability control, etc. etc.
And when I learned that Tesla integrated all that stuff together, including self-driving functions, even down to movement of the steering... I facepalmed so hard I hurt my head.
Tesla is another example of "designer" instead of "design". Made by a name that's famous does not mean the same thing as fit-for-purpose, clever design, value-for-money, best use of materials and space, etc. etc.
It's not the driving and safety systems that are affected, it's alerts related to them. Like a chime that goes off if you leave the blinker on, or the clicking sound of the blinker itself. It can still be dangerous - e.g. if the AutoPilot is telling you it doesn't know what to do - but it's not the case that the entertainment system crashing will make the brakes stop working or anything like that.
My wife's Chevy Bolt has the same issues with the infotainment system - she can't change some of the environmental controls (seat heater, heat/AC on/off, etc) if the system crashes. There are physical controls for some things (temperature, fan, volume), but it's not clear what you're doing or if it works when the infotainment system is hung. The system has crashed several times in the 10 months she's owned the car. Luckily, there's an easy way to reset it when it crashes. Who knows if it has the same flash longevity issues as the Teslas.
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Is it a modern Bolt? Because this eMMC MCU issue only ever affected Model S/X and only up to 2018, and never was very common.
I suspect that her crashes are probably just a software bug. Sadly, a lot of people confuse "infotainment system crashes" with "all functionality on the vehicle crashes", which isn't even remotely accurate.
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Is it a modern Bolt? Because this eMMC MCU issue only ever affected Model S/X and only up to 2018, and never was very common.
I suspect that her crashes are probably just a software bug. Sadly, a lot of people confuse "infotainment system crashes" with "all functionality on the vehicle crashes", which isn't even remotely accurate.
Yep, it's a 2020, purchased new in March of 2020. I'm thinking it's a firmware issue as well - there's no way this car is old enough to have any endurance-related issue yet. People do jump to (incorrect) conclusions, especially when Tesla is involved.
Re:Separation (Score:5, Informative)
Teslas don't even lose aircon during an eMMC-caused MCU crash.
Literally none of those things fail during a MCU crash. Heaters, braking, dashboard (this is only re: MS/MX, there's a separate system behind the steering wheel), power steering, braking, and stability control are all unaffected by MCU crashes. The main symptoms are a blank screen (no satnav, etc), no sound (including hearing your indicators, although they still work normally), and inability to access things that there are no hand controls for (less commonly used features like fog lights, defrosters, etc), for about 15 seconds.
Self-driving is unaffected by MCU crashes (it is not run by the MCU), and the self-driving computer unit has two independent redundant systems on a single board (every stage is redundant, down to redundant steering and braking actuators). The user can override AP at will just by applying force. Tesla's design - unlike some companies' designs - will never "fight you".
You've made a lot of erroneous assumptions. Next time, just ask.
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Tesla does lose aircon, that's why it's a recall. The driver can't demist the windscreen any more, which is obviously a critical safety issue.
The aircon controls are on the screen at the bottom.
Sound is also a critical safety feature, e.g. warning sounds from autopilot.
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Teslas don't even lose aircon during an eMMC-caused MCU crash.
That's not quite true. There is a point in the reboot where it shuts down the air handlers, then brings them back up. The longer your reboots take, the longer you have no air handling.
Self-driving is unaffected by MCU crashes (it is not run by the MCU), and the self-driving computer unit has two independent redundant systems on a single board (every stage is redundant, down to redundant steering and braking actuators).
Also not quite true. As soon as the MCU goes down, Navigate on Autopilot goes away. The self-driving computer depends on the MCU for GPS information, routing information, and maybe map data. If the MCU is down, all it can do is basic lane keeping and manual lane changes.
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...And when I learned that Tesla integrated all that stuff together, including self-driving functions, even down to movement of the steering... I facepalmed so hard I hurt my head.
If that makes your head hurt, best not think about exactly how autonomous cars will be designed in the future.
Tesla is designing and making an autonomous car. It just so happens to have manual controls right now due to regulation. Not saying it's good, but the rationale behind the decision tends to make sense when you consider the human driver to be obsolete in 10 years.
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I still had full control at all times, I still had heaters, braking, dashboard, monitoring functions, power steering, braking, stability control, etc. etc.
I'm guessing you enjoy braking.
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The second braking was meant to refer to hill-start / anti-rollback before I edited the line, but to be honest, I do very much want my cars to brake whenever I press the pedal, to the point that I enjoy the fact that redundant braking systems are so important to me that I even put them into my sentences.
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No, it was false economy. That's not surprising, given the rush to get so many of these vehicles out the door in past years, but it is ironic that the resulting vehicles sold for such a premium.
Knobs. Please. (Score:5, Insightful)
Touchscreens do not belong in cars in the first place. What's required are tactile controls that don't require taking your eyes of the road.
Re:Knobs. Please. (Score:4, Informative)
Touch screens are fine to have in cars. What's not fine is to require the user to touch it in order to control things that are commonly adjusted while driving.
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So touch screens are fine for use in cars -- as long as you don't actually use them?
Maybe you need to think through your theory a little bit more. I don't want some big, relatively fragile, glass screen in my passenger compartment if its only safe use is when the vehicle is parked. I want controls that I can locate, identify, and manipulate with one hand while my eyes are on the road and I am seated normally. Touch screens aren't that.
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Do you mean on a Tesla or on more traditional cars with stronger safety considerations?
In my non-Tesla car, the most common controls for audio are on the steering wheel, in easy reach of my left thumb when my hand is in the usual driving position. Temperature is controlled by physical switches on the center console that are easy to find (with a glance at most) and to control without a second look. Fans are normally managed by "climate control" logic, but manual control is unfortunately through the touchsc
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Touch screens are fine to have in cars. What's not fine is to require the user to touch it in order to control things that are commonly adjusted while driving.
So touch screens are fine for use in cars -- as long as you don't actually use them?
From your message I take it that every single second you spend in a vehicle, you are driving. How do you find roads with no stop lights? How do you start moving before you even adjust your seat, buckle your seat belt, etc? That seems pretty impressive.
Or maybe you're just being disingenuous, which will impress no one. That shit is boring.
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When you are stopped at a light, you are still supposed to be paying attention to the world around your car, not your screen. Otherwise you don't know when an emergency vehicle with lights and sirens on might be behind you in the line, or you have to scan for improper cross traffic or other hazards after the light turns green, slowing everyone down.
Seat adjustment and seat belts both use distinctively shaped physical controls, not touch screens. I only use those when the vehicle is stopped, but they would
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There's a lot you control in your car that you do not do while driving. Touchscreens are fine and have their place. You seem to be making the usual stupid all or nothing comparisons.
As for relatively fragile, please keep your emotions in check, because it's clear you've stopped making an argument based on any physical properties and are just looking for adjectives to throw at something you hate.
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I agree touchscreens have their place. That place is not "where a driver needs to interact with them".
Would you like to try again, this time making an actual argument, and without the spittle-flecked invective?
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There's lots of things that don't need buttons and could use the touch sc
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You don't "need" to adjust radio or audio while driving, including volume and tuning or track selection? Then why include those functions at all, or why not put the controls in front of the passenger seat? Sure, you don't need to pair a phone while driving, but that's a rare operation and doesn't come close to justifying a touchscreen by itself.
You've made arguments that certain functions could be performed with a touchscreen when the vehicle is parked. I never disputed that. My contention is that those
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It's a myth that people "don't take their eyes off the road" when using physical controls. Pay attention to yourself next time. Trying to deal with physical buttons that aren't within immediate range of your hands' resting positions requires awkward fumbling that's more distracting than just glancing - which is why everyone glances. Generally glancing way further away from the road and at a smaller object than the corresponding equivalent for a large touchscreen directly next to the steering wheel (where
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It's a myth that people "don't take their eyes off the road" when using physical controls.
True, but irrelevant to the point made.
Trying to deal with physical buttons that aren't within immediate range of your hands' resting positions requires awkward fumbling that's more distracting than just glancing
No, it isn't. And often, no it doesn't. Once you've learned their positions you can just reach out and grab them, especially if they aren't all the same and there is enough empty space around them. But even putting that aside, your argument is nonsensical, because...
which is why everyone glances.
...yes, they glance. But you can't just glance at a touch screen, remember what the button feels like, then reach out and press it. You have to look at it the whole time you're using it, to make sure your f
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Yes, it is, and yes, it does. I've done this experiment in person with people several times - you ask them to adjust a random control in their own car without looking. They're usually surprised by how poorly they do. People simply don't realize that they glance. They do.
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** In town I have to take over for rotaries, traffic lights, etc. But again, it's highly reliable for situations it supports. I do of course keep my eyes on the road for weird or unexpected circumstances.
Like any other tool, and indeed like driving itself, you "learn it". The first time you start using AP, you're hypercautious. You frequently intervene, set the speed to very low, etc. As your confidence grows for a given route (by the car showing consistent reliability, you intervene less, allow higher sp
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I can't even parse your argument here.
The poor quality of your parser is not my responsibility.
I'm getting "People don't glance at physical controls, except they do glance at physical controls, but it's still by feel without looking, and you glance at touchscreens, but that's somehow a different glance that takes more time".
Pretty close, you did better than I thought given your complaint. Clearly you almost parsed it.
It's "people don't always glance at physical controls, but when they do, they don't have to look at them as long as they have to look at a touch screen". This is a lot less complicated than you disingenuously want to make it to support your Musk-fellating argument.
I use a car with a large touchscreen every day. Every day up to my life before that point I used one without a touchscreen. I'm talking from personal experience; it doesn't take more attention once you get used to it.
I assume you've done this experiment, too? Made video recordings of people using touchscreen an
Re: Knobs. Please. (Score:2)
If you have to take your eyes off the road to deal with controls, you're not driving my car. All are within easy reach, and all are tactile.
If I wanted to look at the cabin temperature, sure, I'd have to look, but I mainly go on "I'm too {cold/hot}".
My previous ride, a Mk IV VW GTI was awful about this. Trimmed out pretty luxe, it had buttons to adjust the climate controls, and they were just as bad as a touchscreen: demanded visual attention. Awful.
I'm currently driving the wheels off my elder Mk V GTI, an
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In my Tesla, I can change the temperature without looking at or touching the touchscreen. The voice controls will do this.
Re: Knobs. Please. (Score:2)
That sounds like an excellent application of voice control.
I'm not knocking Tesla cars. I just don't believe driver accessible controls are a sane use of touchscreens.
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Indeed, you don't have to be too precise. You can say "My ass is too cold!" and it'll turn on the seat heaters. The variation in allowable voice commands is extensive.
(Then there's the easter eggs. ;) For example, try saying "porcupine tree" as a voice command. I assume that's a reference to their song "Open Car")
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People glance so they can move their hands to the correct spot. It's target acquisition. I also look at my keyboard when I sit down to properly place my fingers, that doesn't mean I don't touch type.
But that's just to make sure my hands make it to the radio or heat efficiently. I could feel around for them (and do if it's dark and want the cabin illumination dim), but the glance is q
Re:Knobs. Please. (Score:4, Informative)
Touchscreens when moving are unreliable for quick control activation. I personally think they should be locked out from interaction when a car is in motion. Hard buttons all the way.
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That one materialized for a moment. They shipped a few hundred, then raised the minimum cost to 38 or 45 or something.
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It was on sale off-menu** until just two months ago [autoweek.com], as has been repeatedly pointed out here on Slashdot, with examples of people posting on forums and Youtube with their buying experiences. It's amazing how people are so willful about shutting out facts.
** - It's a software-downgraded SR+. You order SR+ and call in or visit to your local Tesla store to have them downgrade it. They only sold it off-menu to make it more inconvenient, because they made a lot more money on SR+ and only wanted people who were
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It's also worth pointing out that it's become easier and easier for Tesla to offer cheaper and cheaper models, as their automotive margins rise (now over 27% with credits / over 22% without credits). They simply don't have the production capacity to sell more, so there's no reason to cut prices; all price cuts would accomplish would be to increase waiting times.
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I'm sorry I wasn't aware that they were selling something without documenting that fact anywhere. But they publicized it for a short while then said they were raising the minimum.
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You got me. I don't actually love my Tesla. No, no, I'm secretly a paid shill. Tesla writes me a check for $2500 per day to post on Slashdot, just to torture you.
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Touchscreens do not belong in cars in the first place. What's required are tactile controls that don't require taking your eyes of the road.
Fully agree, and I wish the NTSA would take a detailed look at just how many deaths are caused by this form of distracted driving. We seem to focus a lot on the smartphone (rightly so), but there's probably plenty here to look at too in order to make an informed decision on whether or not touchscreen functionality should be limited or restricted.
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Given that Tesla's accident rate is dramatically less than the US average [wheelsjoint.com], good luck supporting your hypothesis.
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Touchscreens do not belong in cars in the first place. What's required are tactile controls that don't require taking your eyes of the road.
This has nothing to do with touchscreens. The audible alert system is dying. In a Tesla it just happens to be part of the same unified component.
Smartphone on wheels (Score:5, Insightful)
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Here's the kicker, though. If every control is behind that touchscreen, THE TOUCH SCREEN NEEDS TO BE AS RELIABLE AS THE ENGINE. Not acceptable for 8% of the cars to experience a failure in 5 years. That touchscreen and all the wiring and electronics that support it need to be rated for a de
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Doesn't even have to do that. Just by a car that isn't a Tesla.
Full memory = loss of control? (Score:2)
â€oe NHTSA added that â€oeduring our review of the data, Tesla provided confirmation that all units will inevitably fail given the memory deviceâ€(TM)s finite storage capacity.â€â€
So the memory fills up with â€oedata†thereâ€(TM)s no way to purge and you eventually lose the ability to control the car? Sounds dumb! Then:
â€oe Many compl
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The problem is not limited memory capacity, but limited write lifetime. They write lots of log data to a flash device that is soldered onto the circuit board. After enough program/erase cycles, that flash device fails because the memory cells have degraded too much to be reliable. And this breaks the whole board.
So Tesla's several layers of fail: Writing logs to the same device that program data is stored on. Failing to do a lifetime analysis and notice that they would burn through the device's lifetime
Their touchscreens are speakers? (Score:2)
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"Touchscreen" is a bad description. What's under discussion here is the MCU, which is basically the whole infotainment system (including the screen but also the controlling hardware). Infotainment includes speakers. It doesn't however affect anything related to driving functionality (steering, braking, etc... also things related to the hand controls and stalks continue to work fine). A rebooted MCU comes back up after about 15 seconds or so.
Re: Their touchscreens are speakers? (Score:2)
Actually, it's the eMMC that fails... Too many writes. Tesla has been replacing these free with an upgraded chip. They also pushed a software update which reduces writes.
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Rei posted a description of the problem updiscussion, but the tldr version is that they used a soldered eMMC and then logged too much data to it, and wore it out. Now they either have to replace computers which are connected to those touch screens which are not actually the problem at all themselves, or have new eMMCs soldered in.
It's a total amateur hour problem all around. If they hadn't socketed it then the fix would be simple-ish, although supposedly it's quite arduous to extract the computer. If they h
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It's the touch screen controller - it's not the physical device, it's the board that controls it.
Certification Requirements? (Score:2)
Oops... (Score:2)
I did all my pre-submit spelling and basic grammar checks, but completed missed the "does this sentence make sense" test.
Which, thinking about it, neat
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Tesla don't have the best relationship with the NHTSA so I can't see them raising issues with this recall notice... but I can't help think that Tesla would have the right to be annoyed with this decision, if only on the grounds that if this is something that the NHTSA should have spotted as an issue during initial vehicle certification and got Tesla to fix at the outset, then Tesla would not have to go to the expense of recalling and repairing 158,000 vehicles.
Are you suggesting that NHTSA should have predicted that Tesla's implementation of flash memory was going to lead to a breakdown of a key system? As mentioned in another thread, even Tesla didn't catch the issue until later....
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Let's imagine that they also consider, say, the braking system on a car to be safety related. Would you reasonably expect them to thoroughly test a new model's braking system [design, build, materials, operation] to ensure that it was fit for purpose? if your answer to that question is positive, then, yes,
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Automakers don't go through extensive inspections or design reviews before they sell a car. They have to crash test it for collision standard compliance, and it gets generally measured and broadly inspected to see if it has the right kind of headlights and tail lights, that everything is at the right height and so on (headlights have to be a certain height above the road, the trunk line has to be at a certain height to protect against being driven over from behind, etc.) but nobody is checking an automaker'
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As the "general, car-buying public" I suspect that most of us have a reasonable expectation that the vehicles offered to us for purchase are reasonably fit-for-purpose, safe and secure. As this is showing, the move to add more and more technology to cars is introducing a level of complexity that makes pre-emptive vehicle testing that much harder.
As Boeing found to their cost with the MCAS software.
The reason I ask is because this will inevitably come back to fat
Reno in August (Score:2)
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Screen or MCU? If just the screen, you can still use voice commands (also, was your AC not on already?). If MCU, and a reboot didn't solve it, you're the first person with that issue that I've ever met. :) I wonder what happened? I certainly wouldn't want to go on a long road trip with a totally dead MCU. I guess it's better than driving with most problems (burst tyre, bad brakes, suspension fault, or whatever), but wouldn't be nice.
Note that with a totally dead MCU, buttons wouldn't help anything. The w
and when apple makes an car will they face recalls (Score:2)
and when apple makes an car will they face hard recalls like this.
How Will the NHTSA take that them saying that cars with any water indicators that have turned can't be fixed for free? or stuff like that car has an hail dent on the top so we can't replace the touch screen MCU under warranty coverage.
Say you went to an 3rd party shop for repair so you can't get recall fix you must pay for an discount replacement of the full car or an repair of any part that is not factory.
or an car that goes error 53 on the
Tesla stalled on recalling this one on purpose.... (Score:2)
IMHO, they knew something like this would eventually happen. They know they screwed up (evidenced by them updating their firmware to stop logging so much data to the flash chip constantly), and all of the older MCUs have this ticking time-bomb in them, where the flash will fail suddenly on people.
The annoying thing is, they released a whole new MCU since then and it's probably 2x as fast and allows a number of capabilities the old one doesn't have (including a web browser that's actually usable). But anyo
Stock bubble. (Score:2)
Yet another sign of the TSLA stock bubble - your way overvalued stock goes up $3+ on news of a mass recall that will hit your already low/non-existent profits.
Good luck with that, lol. And no - I won't be shorting them because I don't know _when_ this irrational price inflation will end.
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They basically designed the car from the experience of designing smartphones. Or it appears that way.
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Do you think that capacitors should also be removable and replaceable?
eMMC is hardly something unique to Tesla. It's exceedingly common, in most cars for sale today. You calculate your write rate, and size your eMMC to give you a sufficient lifespan. The problem here was that the vehicles ended up logging more than the system was designed for.