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The Internet Australia Technology

Australian Law Could Make Internet 'Unworkable', Says World Wide Web Inventor Tim Berners-Lee (independent.co.uk) 242

Internet pioneer Tim Berners-Lee has said Australia's plan to make tech giants pay for journalism could render the internet as we know it "unworkable." From a report: The inventor of the World Wide Web claimed that proposed laws could disrupt the established order of the internet. "Specifically, I am concerned that that code risks breaching a fundamental principle of the web by requiring payment for linking between certain content online," Berners-Lee told a Senate committee scrutinizing a bill that would create the New Media Bargaining Code. If the code is deployed globally, it could "make the web unworkable around the world," he said.
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Australian Law Could Make Internet 'Unworkable', Says World Wide Web Inventor Tim Berners-Lee

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  • And it will find a way. The law is irrelevant.

    Companies need to figure this out and learn to work together with it, rather than against it.

    • by Joce640k ( 829181 ) on Friday February 19, 2021 @01:14PM (#61080242) Homepage

      Yep. I'm not sure the law requires payment, it just enables content owners able to ask for it.

      I'm sure they'll stop asking as soon as Google stops linking to them and they disappear off the Internet.

      • by alexo ( 9335 ) on Friday February 19, 2021 @02:08PM (#61080470) Journal

        Yep. I'm not sure the law requires payment, it just enables content owners able to ask for it.

        It also mandates arbitration to set a remuneration amount:

        52ZX Final offer arbitration
        (1) The panel is to make a determination under this subsection about the terms for resolving the remuneration issue that:
            (a) is in accordance with subsections (7), (8) and (9) (final offer arbitration); and
            (b) sets out a lump sum amount (the remuneration amount ) for remunerating the registered news business for the making available of the registered news business’ covered news content by the designated digital platform service for 2 years

        Source: News Media and Digital Platforms Mandatory Bargaining Code [aph.gov.au]

      • by cayenne8 ( 626475 ) on Friday February 19, 2021 @02:10PM (#61080478) Homepage Journal

        If the code is deployed globally, it could "make the web unworkable around the world," he said.

        It occurs to me...that many countries and leaders around the world wouldn't actually mind if the web stopped working as we know it today...at least for the common folks.

        • by TheNameOfNick ( 7286618 ) on Friday February 19, 2021 @04:56PM (#61081072)

          The next iteration will be far worse for authoritarian politicians. The internet is going dark, not in the sense that it's being turned off, but in the sense that you won't see what's going on anymore. We've experienced a short period of unprecedented access to information, but that is coming to an end. And it's not because of stupid laws like this one. The trend started with social media, as people felt the need to exclude again and not publish to the entire world like in Geocities days. It's going to be cliques all the way down from here on out.

      • I have made payment to three newspapers around the world. I paid them because I found they interesting/useful to read. Most other news source do not tell me about anything i do not get thru my local news services. A lot of papers out there probably think they are more important than they really are, they will be surprised to find they are not and not only will they get no money, but people will no long link them in fear of having to pay fees.
    • Information wants nothing. *People* want information for free. But unless there's something really compelling about the information you're trying to sell, people will mostly be just as happy to get the free information someone else is giving away.

      • The original meaning of the expression was more in line with the idea of free as in liberty, not free as in beer, but I don't think it works either way. Anyone who thinks that information wants to be free can start with their financial information and medical history.

        Suddenly there's a greater desire for information to be locked away and kept private. But no one really wants information to be free as in beer either, at least not when it comes to them getting paid for applying the information that they po
      • No, it is meant in the way of "the universe wants ...". Aka a colorful way of saying "laws of nature".

        Information IS free. Regardless of what anyone wants.
        It *literally* cannot be shown to exist without leaking it.

        (The zero-knowledge proof is actually a logical fallacy, disguised as a law of induction simile. In reality, you did not give full proof but only partial proof, and leaked that part as a result. And if you repeat it, to grow confidence, that just means you leak it, bit by bit, until yes, the recip

        • Outside of limited cases [wikipedia.org], you can't prove something to someone else without "leaking" information, but you can certainly keep it all to yourself. Something can exist in the universe outside of your knowledge of its existence or understanding of it. People died of cancer or any number of illnesses all throughout human history before we understood them. Our ability (or lack thereof) to notice and understand some phenomenon doesn't impede it. Similarly, just because you hold on to information, it doesn't preve
    • by chris234 ( 59958 ) on Friday February 19, 2021 @01:39PM (#61080334)

      Information doesn't want to be anthropomorphized.

    • by SirSlud ( 67381 )

      Cool, I assume you just give away your personal details so you can be marketed towards more effectively as information wants to be free, instead of fighting against it.

      • Cool, I assume you just give away your personal details so you can be marketed towards more effectively as information wants to be free, instead of fighting against it.

        Actually, sort of. If that means I get an advert about things I care about rather than something I don't then why not? If I MUST see ads, I'd prefer to learn about things I am interested in.

    • by gtall ( 79522 )

      Information wants to be free, however the production of valid information does cost money. The consequences of private sources of valid information not getting paid means turning over the production of valid information to organizations that can afford it, like governments. Totalitarians rely upon this everywhere.

  • I thought it was content redistribution in the form of embedding that is the current problem. How can you possibly charge anyone for a link? Has this guy lost touch with 'his creation'?
    • by Joce640k ( 829181 ) on Friday February 19, 2021 @01:18PM (#61080260) Homepage

      I thought it was content redistribution in the form of embedding that is the current problem.

      Sort of.

      If a site puts a "summary" in their meta then google will show that summary instead of text scraped from the page. It's the reason that all those "dictionary" sites say "click here for the best definitions" instead of any useful info when you search for a word.

      Short version: Site owners already have full control over what Google "redistributes", they're just choosing not to because they think google will give them free money instead. Which they won't.

      • The alternative solution for Google is easy, is simply isn't good: whenever someone searches something, Google can display the URL and say "more content available in the link". No snippet, no summary, no photo, nothing, just a full, clickable URL.

        • by BAReFO0t ( 6240524 ) on Friday February 19, 2021 @02:10PM (#61080482)

          No, Google's spider did not *take* anything by showing a snippet.

          It literally asked the site's server "Can you send me a copy of the lisr what you have on offer for me, a robot, to download?", the server went "Sure thing, here's robots.txt.", and then Google went "Hey, can you send me a copy of that article page (that robots.txt said I can get)?".

          And instead of the server going "Only if you agree to these conditions here ...", it went "Sure thing! Here is all the data, no strings attached!".

          Those idiots simply haven't understood the most basic concepts of HTTP, and failed to configure their servers, and now they bitch like spoiled brats who always got everythign for free usually do.

          Well boo hoo. Nobody cares. Learn a lesson, stop stealing from creators, grap the buggy whip, mount a horse buggy, light an oil lamp, and die in a fire, you utterly useless twats!

          • I agree, my point is that if they legally want this, Google may go all the way and follow the letter of the law strictly. Check my other answer for how that could be done in an even more annoying way: https://slashdot.org/comments.... [slashdot.org]

            But notice one important aspect: copyright law doesn't care about technical methods, it cares only about who owns the copyright, and whether there's an explicit contractual grant of rights from the copyright owner to the distributor. If there isn't, the copyright owner failing

            • Robots.txt is not a Google invention. Itâ(TM)s been a de facto standard since well before either Google or the DMCA were things. Surprisingly, itâ(TM)s only been taken up by IETF fairly recently, and should be become an official standard soonish. (For a technology standards bidy, IETF works annoyingly slowly.) But either way, itâ(TM)s not a Google invention; but an internationally accepted way of making the internet work.

            • by dissy ( 172727 )

              copyright law doesn't care about technical methods, it cares only about who owns the copyright,

              You can't copyright URLs. Even in the AU. That's what this law is "fixing"

          • Even more, the site has Opengraph tags that tells Google and/or Facebook exactly which text is relevant for the snippet and which featured photo to use.

    • No, he has a company (Inrupt) that depends on scraping social media data to make money. He fears losing touch with his (ie, other people's) money.
    • by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 19, 2021 @01:41PM (#61080344)

      I thought it was content redistribution in the form of embedding that is the current problem. How can you possibly charge anyone for a link? Has this guy lost touch with 'his creation'?

      That's exactly what the AU law does.

      It defines "news" as text having any one of six properties, including "
      to provide a forum for the exchange of ideas and opinions"

      Seriously, you really should read it.
      Here, I will willingly make myself a criminal by linking to the law text itself:
      https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliam... [aph.gov.au]

      Search for the text:
      " In designing the Code, policy makers have had to consider the fundamental question of what is news content. "

      Any one of six qualifications, including "to provide a forum for the exchange of ideas and opinions"
      That means what we are doing right here. The content of the law at the link above is officially a source of "news" and they can charge Slashdot for having this link here.

      Other key takeaway points:

      "A diverse range of informative content about matters of import that can be defined by characteristics such as timeliness. ... Deliberately elastic, it extends beyond content produced by journalists. "
      " The ACCC's final report adopted this more elastic definition, describing news as 'information and commentary on contemporary affairs that may or may not be produced and presented by journalists', "

      So the government actually can charge money for the content of the law itself being linked to, purely because we are discussing it!

      This has NOTHING to do with actual news, and everything to do with charging companies for linking to websites.

      • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        It's a bad law but to be fair I think you misread that. For a start it's not the actual law, it's a summary and discussion of it. And it notes that in fact the definition you quoted is one given in an ACCC report used as a reference when drafting the law, not what the law itself defines news as.

        If you scroll down a bit you find the following definition for "core news content":

        [quote]- issues or events that are relevant in engaging Australians in public debate and in informing democratic decisionâ'makin

    • by Anubis IV ( 1279820 ) on Friday February 19, 2021 @01:47PM (#61080378)

      How can you possibly charge anyone for a link? Has this guy lost touch with 'his creation'?

      Afraid not. As it is currently written, Google and Facebook will be required to make payments to news sites for merely linking to them [arstechnica.com], even if they don't embed any content or reuse snippets from the articles. Quite literally, a news organization could post a link to an article to their Facebook page and Facebook would be required to pay them for the privilege of serving a page containing that link. And to answer your first question, the law requires big sites to make a good faith effort to negotiate payments with news organizations, even if all they're doing is linking, and it forbids them from "discriminating" against news sites that ask for payment by only linking to organizations that are freely available. The law also addresses snippets and embeds, as you alluded to, but it's the linking part that is most controversial.

      For my part, I find it to be quite appropriate that it's being referred to as a "link tax", and I think it's an absurd law that is fundamentally at odds with the principles of a functioning democracy (taxes like these are supposed to go on things you want to reduce, such as cigarette smoking or driving a gas guzzler, not on things that are necessary for an informed electorate).

      As a direct result of the law, Facebook has already blocked all links to news [apnews.com] on their Australian version of the site (even international news, because linking to it would be "discriminatory" under the new law) and has blocked links to Australian news sources on all versions of the site (because they would arguably be required to pay). They're still allowing news organizations to repost the article itself to their Facebook pages, but the post won't contain any links back to the news site and other Facebook users can't share the news post in any way.

      It hurts me to say this of a company I loathe so much, but Facebook is actually doing the right thing here. I don't think it's unreasonable to have discussions or draft laws about making payments for snippets or embedded content (though most efforts in that vein have been misguided and quickly fall apart when faced with market realities), but the very notion of a link tax is abhorrent, and that's exactly what at least part of this law is.

      • Some may read your post and say "but that doesn't make any sense. That would be stupid."

        It doesn't have to make sense - it's legislation.

        It's written by a combination of old dudes with Jitterbug phones and young baristas who give customers the password to the shop's "Google".

        • by nathanh ( 1214 )

          It's written by a combination of old dudes with Jitterbug phones

          Politicians don't write legislation. In this case the ACCC - the consumer watchdog, an independent government body - wrote the legislation.

          The ACCC has a long and respected history of looking out for Australian consumers. People who think this is the work of "Murdoch" or "Politicians" are so obviously misled. Any guesses who is doing the misleading? If you get your information from Google or Facebook,

      • Taxes are mainly a way to raise revenue - so the government has some money to spend. Using them to influence behavior is really secondary.
        • Taxes are mainly a way to raise revenue - so the government has some money to spend. Using them to influence behavior is really secondary.

          Agreed, which is why I said "taxes like these", rather than just "taxes" in the parenthetical to which you're referring. I was hoping "like these" would make it clear that I was not making a generalization about taxes, but was rather speaking narrowly about a certain variety of tax that was at play.

          Honestly, I'm not sure what you were expecting from a four paragraph post someone wrote off-the-cuff. I actually thought I was being rather circumspect by including those two words, simply because I was aware of

      • What I donâ(TM)t get is why they (Both Google AND Facebook) donâ(TM)t just move whatever servers they have in Australia outside the country, tell them to go pound sand, and dare a âoewestern democracyâ to implement a communist-China-style âoeGreat Firewallâ. China may be able to put down the citizens who object and ignore international rights organizations and other governments. But what happens if Australiaâ(TM)s citizens are suddenly cut off from Google, Android, Faceboo

      • by An Ominous Cow Erred ( 28892 ) on Friday February 19, 2021 @06:51PM (#61081574)

        Thanks for summarizing so well. What the law essentially does is make what in the old days we could call a "card catalog" in a library illegal. Or a bibliography for works cited.

        It's never been illegal in print media for there to be an index of books and news articles. It's also long been considered fair use to quote a sentence or two from the article and then include a reference to it in the bibliography. In fact, it was considered a requirement for good authorship to provide citations for all your sources.

        Before the days of the internet there were (manually) searchable indexes of articles by subject matter, which would then tell you which magazine or newspaper to get from microfilm to read the article. Publishers LOVED these indexes because it increased the readership of their publications, encouraging more libraries to maintain a back-issue catalog, and more people to read their material in general.

        News publishers today are happy that there are search engines linking to them because that is where they get a huge portion of their readership, and virtually *ALL* of their new readers. They're just motivated by greed when they realize that the company indexing their data has a whole ton of money that they could siphon away if they just lobby hard enough.

        Then they cry foul when the company simply decides to stop providing the service instead. i.e. they're saying 1) Google/Facebook/etc. are obligated to provide us with readers, and 2) They are obligated to pay for the privilege of having that obligation.

        Imagine you're a guy named Mish. Your wife Ellen loves going out to eat with you and you eat a lot of good food. You start telling all your friends about a great restaurant to eat at and showing them a take-out menu you took home so they can see all the great food there. So many people trust your opinion on food that you decide to start a business listing the best restaurants and what you can eat there. You decide to sell your book called the "Mish-Ellen Guide".
        The restaurants start gaining lots of customers by being listed in your guide. Then a bunch of restaurants are saying "Hey you are making money off of us by selling this guide, you need to pay us for the privilege of telling people about our food!". This is fucking stupid, but the restaurants are able to buy off the local politician to pass a law saying you have to pay restaurants for the honor of including them in your guide.
        You say "Fine, I'll just stop publishing the guide. I'll just let random people publish their recipes in my books instead." Then the restaurants go ballistic when they stop getting the customers from your guide. They go back to the politician and try to get him a law mandating that you must publish your guide because it's your legal duty, and therefore you must pay the restaurants.

        It's completely stupid but somehow brain cells go out the window when it involves "The Internet".

  • But you can't force people to smoke.

  • Geo Blocking (Score:5, Interesting)

    by A10Mechanic ( 1056868 ) on Friday February 19, 2021 @01:23PM (#61080272)
    How long will it be be before companies decide the liability is just too costly and simply geo-block the entire continent? No Australia? No problemo.
    • So? Australia is not dependent on Google News service. Google News is dependent on local news publishers. Otherwise they'd be uploading summaries of random blogs or American "news".

      • So? Australia is not dependent on Google News service. Google News is dependent on local news publishers.

        Australia may not be dependent on Google News, but the Australian news industry likely is. In every other case where this sort of stuff has happened, the story has always been the same: Google stops linking to those news sites and those news sites come groveling back a few months later once they've seen their traffic fall off a cliff.

        Google likely would've done the same here—linking to freely available sites while refusing to link to anything that required payment—except that they can't. Divisio [aph.gov.au]

  • Can't wait to read the comments tomorrow to see Slashdot's rabbit hatred for Google and Facebook clash with their love for Tim Berners-Lee agreeing on a common topic against a law that hurts Google and Facebook the most.

    I'm excited. I think I need a beer too.

  • No, sorry, it is only publishers. You know, that industry that lost its purpose with the Internet.

    They may opt to pay journalists.
    But usually they rather opt to like their pockets and produce more journatainment and auto-generated sports articles.

    They are the main reason actual jouralism os almost dead.

    Of course they want to be paid for getting something. That has been their business model since the first aheet music.

  • by oldgraybeard ( 2939809 ) on Friday February 19, 2021 @01:46PM (#61080370)
    Have the journalist content providers provide a metadata tag for journalism/for sale content.
    Then every search provider can decide to pay or not. If not they will skip the page. If they want to become a customer of said journalist/company providing content they can just setup a customer account.

    Easy ;)

    But doing it with vague and badly structured law and taxing is nuts.
  • by RitchCraft ( 6454710 ) on Friday February 19, 2021 @01:59PM (#61080430)
    Social media and advertisers will eventually make the web unworkable, not laws.
    • A good example is the Magazine, once filled with content only to be slowly clogged up with advertisements. The internet is nearing the Magazine equivalent of 'where's the content?' stage, and has passed the 'oh that was actually an advertisement' stage.
  • may hurt google and facebook but the internet is not free it cost real money to do news

  • Charging for linking is wrong, but allowing charging for reuse of content is right. So the Oz government is 1/2 right.

    Most people seem to accept that reuse of music needs to be paid for, so why not reuse of news ? Both require effort to create and so it is reasonable that there be compensation for reusing -- this is what copyright is all about. It should be OK to reuse snippets of news as you should be able to have small amounts of music or where it is incidental/background. What google/facebook have been d

  • by Dan East ( 318230 ) on Friday February 19, 2021 @03:24PM (#61080742) Journal

    I swore I'd never agree with or be on Facebook's "side", but I think this was a great move on their part. It has brought not just national attention within Australia to this ridiculous move by their government, but world-wide attention as well. The nuclear option was the right way to go - after all they are simply abiding by the letter of the law. They cannot discriminate and provide free news if they don't provide paid-for links, thus blocking all news links is the way to go.

    On a technical note, this is probably the most absurd thing I've ever heard. It never ceases to amaze me what lawmakers and politicians can come with behind closed doors when they're frivolously writing down words as "good ideas" pop into their heads. I swear half of those people have a god complex. When anyone links to your content they are providing FREE advertising. They are saying "Hey! Look at this! Open it so this website can show you advertisements or get you to subscribe to them!". Facebook needs to keep this pressure up long enough that the news organizations in Australia are hurt enough to not let their lawmakers forget it.

  • Everybody and their mother wants to be able to charge people for accessing anything they create. Average people see musicians and Hollywood types making money every time someone access their content not just at the moment of its creation and they all want to be able to do that. Who wouldn't want to be making money decades after writing something or acting in a movie? Trouble is that it's become an addiction. So-called journalists want it too and they don't like someone like Facebook mooching off of thei

  • Unworkable internet? Sign me up!
  • It's all part of a cunning plan by NBN co. If a whole bunch of content goes away from the Australian internet, it won't be so obvious how spectacularly shit the NBN itself is.

  • The internet is currently broken. So maybe it's good that something comes along and forces us to remake it into a much better form.

The unfacts, did we have them, are too imprecisely few to warrant our certitude.

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