Honda Launches World's First Level 3 Self-Driving Car (nikkei.com) 71
Honda Motor will on Friday launch a new car equipped with the world's first certified level 3 autonomous driving technology. Nikkei Asia reports: Industry experts are cautiously watching to see if the Legend, a luxury sedan that operates without driver supervision under certain conditions but requires the driver to assume control of the vehicle within seconds when alerted, can capture enough demand to suggest a way forward for other manufacturers. Honda unveiled the Legend on Thursday at an online press event.
The new model's Traffic Jam Pilot system was approved by Japan's Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism in November. It can free drivers from driving in congested traffic on an expressway when traveling slower than 50 kilometers per hour. The system automatically accelerates, brakes and steers while monitoring the vehicle's surroundings, using data from high-definition mapping and external sensors. The driver, meanwhile, can enjoy the vehicle's infotainment using the navigation screen but must respond to the system's request for a handover when the vehicle speeds up after the traffic jam eases. The report says Honda is proceeding cautiously, only producing 100 units that will be available only for lease sales. The vehicle will also carry a steep price of $102,000.
The new model's Traffic Jam Pilot system was approved by Japan's Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism in November. It can free drivers from driving in congested traffic on an expressway when traveling slower than 50 kilometers per hour. The system automatically accelerates, brakes and steers while monitoring the vehicle's surroundings, using data from high-definition mapping and external sensors. The driver, meanwhile, can enjoy the vehicle's infotainment using the navigation screen but must respond to the system's request for a handover when the vehicle speeds up after the traffic jam eases. The report says Honda is proceeding cautiously, only producing 100 units that will be available only for lease sales. The vehicle will also carry a steep price of $102,000.
What's new about this? (Score:2)
Re:What's new about this? (Score:5, Informative)
They're cutting the onion a little thin here in the description of the differences, but I suppose when it's life or death, incremental levels of improvement are important distinctions.
Level Two autonomy: Driver's in monitoring mode. Vehicle can steer. (Example}Tesla autopilot.
Level Three autonomy: Vehicle in charge of steering and motion in certain situations, Driver needs to be ready to take over if necessary. (Example) Honda Traffic Jam Pilot.
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Re: What's new about this? (Score:3)
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Tesla requires the driver to monitor the car at all times. They never take responsibility for an accident, even if the car is in AutoPilot mode.
With this Honda, you will be legally allowed to text or watch a video while driving, with Honda being ultimately liable for whatever the car is doing. This is a big leap of trust in how reliable the self driving system is. Tesla has more bells and whistles, but on the reliability side, they are not confident enough to guarantee something like this.
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And why would anybody want this - other than as a cool AI-ish demonstration?
I've attempted to use old-style cruise control and found it pretty much pointless in terms of making driving more pleasant. And with cruise control, you're still driving. Autonomous self-driving cars that are not really autonomous serve little purpose - you may be supposed to remain alert enough to take over control in seconds, but does anybody think they would be? It's either self driving (i.e., driverless taxis) or it's not. D
Re:What's new about this? (Score:5, Informative)
They're cutting the onion a little thin here in the description of the differences, but I suppose when it's life or death, incremental levels of improvement are important distinctions.
Level Two autonomy: Driver's in monitoring mode. Vehicle can steer. (Example}Tesla autopilot.
Level Three autonomy: Vehicle in charge of steering and motion in certain situations, Driver needs to be ready to take over if necessary. (Example) Honda Traffic Jam Pilot.
Big difference is that with Level 2, the human must be ready to take over immediately, i.e., the human must be paying attention to the driving situation 100% of the time. That's why all ADAS, including Tesla must either constantly nag the human or monitor the human as a proxy to ensuring that the human is paying attention. With Level 3, the driver is not required to pay attention at all to the driving situation, so the human has a few seconds of time to take over. Level 2 is hands-off, eyes-on, while Level 3 is hands-off, eyes-off.
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Presumably, the Honda model has been "certified" to not plow into shit when assist software is confused.
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It'll be interesting to see how it plays out the first time it does something it's not certified to. That's always been the issue at the core of adopting true, full self-driving. Tesla currently gets to cop out with, "It's your fault, you should have been driving anyway."
When Honda's system fucks up, will they blame Honda? I think it's got to be an order of magnitude more reliable than Tesla's current system for the manufacturer to accept that kind of risk. Honda doesn't seem totally confident in that yet,
This is why they are only making 100 (Score:1)
It'll be interesting to see how it plays out the first time it does something it's not certified to.
That's what they are only making 100; less chance it will do so.
Tesla's system probably actually works much better, but Tesla has a lot more cars on the roads and so must be way more careful about declaring Level 3 even if what they have is a working Level 3 system (and from a lot of videos it seems like it is since it an handle a huge range of automated driving tasks now).
Tesla's approach is probably better
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That's what they are only making 100; less chance it will do so.
Tesla's system probably actually works much better, but Tesla has a lot more cars on the roads and so must be way more careful about declaring Level 3 even if what they have is a working Level 3 system (and from a lot of videos it seems like it is since it an handle a huge range of automated driving tasks now).
Tesla's approach is probably better as they have way more data. I don't know I would trust Honda's system for quite some time at the levels they are selling it at, and the numbers say neither do they.
And furthermore it is only when travelling less than 50 km/h (31 mph) in congestion. So the damage in case of a crash will be limited.
Re: This is why they are only making 100 (Score:2)
More data does not automatically make Tesla driving algorithms and hazard detection systems better.
Data is a source of information used to improve auto pilot decision making. It is not in and of itself decision making.
I can give you the entire encyclopedia britannica but that doesn't mean you actually know anything.
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More data does not automatically make Tesla driving algorithms and hazard detection systems better.
Theoretically that is true. Given what we know about what Tesla does with that data however, we know that in the case of Tesla it does make Tesla's systems better as they have a vast library of real-world driver interventions to analyze, and they use that data to further refine models of car behaviour, along with being able to test new models for reactions in similar situations.
Re: This is why they are only making 100 (Score:1)
Yes, maybe, but as outsiders to the inner workings of Tesla (I assume you do t work for them, either), we really don't know what they do with all that data or how it's applied in the real world. And if the algorithm they apply to all that data sucks then the output will still suck. And if the sensors aren't good enough to feed the algorithm useful real time info or the cpu is too slow or etc etc. would still suck. It's a whole chain of systems and the weakest link is where it will fail. Thus Teslas hav
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read page 120 of the EULA we are not at flat P.S that EULA also says no soucre code or logs for you Don't drop the soap
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You asked a question, I answered.
The difference, is that this one is certified to be unsupervised.
If it crashes into an overturned truck at 60, it's Honda's fault.
If your Tesla does it, it's yours.
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No doubt about it.
You asked a question, I answered.
The difference, is that this one is certified to be unsupervised.
If it crashes into an overturned truck at 60, it's Honda's fault.
If your Tesla does it, it's yours.
No, if you read the summary it is only level 3 below 50 km/h (31 mph) - so it is still your fault.
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Re: What's new about this? (Score:1)
...but this has the blessing of the Japanese government?
Hai. Probrem arimaska??
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Useless (Score:2)
It canâ(TM)t drive on streets or urban areas. It lacks enough sensors. Plus the fact that they havenâ(TM)t mentioned compute power probably means it is likely using a weak CPU that canâ(TM)t be updated.
So yeah basically a big waste of money. Save money and get a Model 3 or Model S instead.
Re: Useless (Score:2)
Thatâ(TM)s a heck of a dumb assumption. If it came with an array of sensors theyâ(TM)ll be touting it.
Just like televisions (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't want a "smart self-driving" car, or a "smart" television.
I want an inexpensive electric vehicle with a decent battery range. All the computers and WIFI, and Cellular junk is mostly a waste of time and money.
If you want to build self-driving cabs or Uber or Lyft delivery vehicles, or whatever, that's fine. Don't expect me to do anything other than pay, select a destination and sit in the back seat like a human being though. If I have to take over driving, what's the point of actually using this?
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If I have to take over driving, what's the point of actually using this?
If you drive a lot it can be a significant stress reducer. Particularly in heavy traffic situations with a lot of stop and go (beep and creep). Yeah you can't go into the back seat and take a nap but the amount of work you have to do to get through is a lot less.
Re: Just like televisions (Score:2)
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Stick to your horse and buggy or better yet just walk.
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I had a commute, briefly before I demanded a schedule change, where I'd regularly sit for an hour or more in stop & go traffic. Doing the math it works out to roughly 500 pedal-switches each day. Part of it was probably bad ergonomics of that car, but it gets your legs stiff and tired after a while.
Apart from the physical demands, it's very irritating otherwise, I would have much rather been reclined in the seat and doing something on my phone.
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So far that has not happened yet. I've been looking for a very cheap car for a friend of mine, who earns a small salary. We're living in Europe, and although everybody rides shift stick here, she's limited to automatic transmission. I figured a small electric car would be an option. Gasoline cars like the Toyota Aygo have a 250 euros monthly payment. The cheapest EV looks to be the Renault Twingo, with a 300 euros monthly payment. But boy, that battery is small... Worst case (winter, highway), it can drive
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You can get a lightly used Zoe with a much longer range for about 300 EUR.
https://suchen.mobile.de/fahrz... [mobile.de]
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I don't live in Germany but indeed it's possible to get a used Renault Zoe for a monthly payment. I didn't know that, thanks for the pointer!
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I would love to own one of these, or ideally an electric version. My drive to work is boring and I would rather check Slashdot and some emails on my phone. When I want to enjoy driving I simply grab the wheel.
With this system you only have to take over when prompted, and you have plenty of time to do it. It's not like level 2 systems where you must pay constant attention, with level 3 you must be given time to familiarize yourself with the situation, put down what you were doing and take control. Situations
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I don't want a "smart self-driving" car, or a "smart" television.
I want a self-driving car.
Specifically, I want a level 4 self-driving car that can take complete control on long trips. It doesn't need to be able to handle city driving, only freeway. But for trips less than about a thousand miles I'd like to have the option of the car driving me through the night while I climb in back and go to sleep, rather than flying. Ideally, the car should even be able to pull into a charging station and recharge without waking me up, but I'd be okay if I had to wake up for a few m
Where's my truly autonomous car? (Score:3)
Still waiting for an autonomous car that can legally drive me to work while I nap, and drive me home after drinking too many beers at the pub. Anything less will make me stick with my jetpack.
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https://blog.waymo.com/2020/10... [waymo.com]
October 8, 2020
Waymo is opening its fully driverless service to the general public in Phoenix
Editor's note: In the time since publication, we've worked through our long waitlist, have continued to increase our supply, and now anyone in the U.S. can download the app directly (available on Google Play and the App Store) and instantly hail a fully autonomous ride in our service territory. Happy riding!
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but will an app = in control and in control = dui? (Score:2)
but will an app = in control and in control = dui?
So after too many beers at the pub your level 4/5 car trip and end with an DUI?
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You get what you measure (Score:4, Interesting)
These "levels" set up arbitrary criteria to measure the AI driver capacities. They make some sense, but it only goes so far.
Even though Honda would be ranked better on paper, Tesla in practice works much better. There are many instances where the drivers are completely asleep, and the vehicle continues at highway speeds for very long times:
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2... [arstechnica.com]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
https://www.usatoday.com/story... [usatoday.com]
In fact, I remember reading in one instance it would pass the police cars who would try to box the vehicle in. It took a lot of effort to actually force the vehicle to stop.
(I am not recommending doing this though. But knowing that my vehicle would safely continue driving if I were to get incapacitated would be really useful).
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Even though Honda would be ranked better on paper, Tesla in practice works much better.
The Honda hasn't been launched yet, so you can't possibly have done a comparison test. So that remains to be seen.
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Tesla's system has a lot of party tricks, but most of them are not useful in terms of getting closer to fully self driving (which failed to launch last year as promised, now 5 years overdue).
Tesla has a tendency to abandon features and leave them in a poor state too, e.g. auto parking. Tesla's auto parking system is quite poor compared to the competition, and doesn't get much love from the developers. Honda's system is vastly superior.
The autonomy levels are useful, clear indications of functionality and th
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In fact, I remember reading in one instance it would pass the police cars who would try to box the vehicle in. It took a lot of effort to actually force the vehicle to stop.
The vehicle won't leave the roadway, so all you have to do is fill all the lanes and slow down. Literally boxing it makes little sense.
Timeline of the future - Utopian version (Score:2)
2026 - First non-Tesla autonomous vehicle drivable on streets.
2029 - First US mainstream affordable autonomous vehicle.
2035 - Highway Autonomous is standard on all cars.
2040 - Urban/street autonomous is standard on all cars.
2042 - First autonomous RV
2045 - Major cities start banning gasoline vehicles.
2048 - Electric cars as good as a 2021 Tesla Model 3 are sold for under $10,000 new with 1 million mile warranty.
2050 - People start seeing autonomous RV as a viable alternative to home ownership. Luxury RV par
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2090 - Highway speed limit increase to 120 mph.
Today 120 mph is not a high speed. On some autobahn would put you on slow lane.
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120 is pretty fast to go on rubber tires for long periods. Put me on rails like a roller coaster. Or maybe just one rail, if the stuff in the car can be distributed any way you want then it could go right up the middle where the driveshaft goes on a proper car now
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I prefer a giant version of the tubes they have at the bank drive thru.
Hyperloop.
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No thanks. If it goes wrong I don't want to be in a tube.
The best solution IMO to the efficiency problem is platooning, or just using actual trains. That cuts drag way down. In fact it actually benefits even the lead vehicle, because of the elimination of a low-pressure volume behind it. And it doesn't have any of the down sides of a tube.
Bob Lutz predicts that eventually (like, when they are all self-driving) cars will pretty much all look like fairly flat-faced, sleek minivans, and that their basic shape
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Infinite Traffic-Jam Detected! (Score:1)
So, the thing is supposed to engage Traffic Jam Pilot whenever certain conditions are met. While in a traffic jam, the driver is free to do things other than pay attention to driving. If the traffic jam clears, the driver is alerted and needs to respond in 2 seconds.
What if the driver doesn't assume control? I suppose the car will slow down because safety. This allows for the driver to remain engrossed in the book/media non-driving stuff.
People are distracted enough when they drive today, so let's add youtu
Small sample size (Score:2)
With only 100 units produced, it seems that they will not get much input for reliability measures or improvements.
But I think I am more interested in how the vehicle insurance and responsibility looks for these. What happens when one runs over a kid while in certified auto mode?
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"What happens when one runs over a kid while in certified auto mode?"
It finds a car wash.
Cure road rage (Score:2)
I could totally see just using self driving for predictable start and stop traffic in long highway traffic jams. Maybe Tesla should focus on that too. It might even cure road rage if someone else is doing the inching along while you avoid a migraine. (Caveat: I have not been driving in such traffic for a long time so maybe overstating the point.) Though Tesla's predictive accident avoidance, at least I think that is something they have, looking a couple of cars ahead, seems also like something Honda should
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For those of us who don't easily get car sick, full self driving at level 3 or above will solve most of our road rage problems because we will pay attention to something else during commutes.
For those who do, they'll still have to be facing forwards and watching what's happening to avoid getting car sick, so they will be able to get road rage without even driving as human drivers demonstrate how badly we need full self driving.
I for one have a ten minute commute with no traffic worth mentioning, so I do not
No, They Didn't. (Score:1)