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Transportation China

China Restricts Tesla Vehicles Over National Security Concerns (wsj.com) 71

Posted by BeauHD from the overheating-US-China-rivalry dept.
hackingbear writes: The Wall Street Journal reports that China's government is restricting the use of Tesla's vehicles by military staff and employees of key state-owned companies (Source paywalled; alternative source), citing concerns that the data collected by the cars could be a source of national security leaks. "The move follows a government security review of Tesla's vehicles, which Chinese officials said raised concerns because the cars' cameras can constantly record images, the people said, as well as obtain various data such as when, how and where the cars are being used, and the contact list of mobile phones that are synced to the cars," reports The Wall Street Journal. "The government is concerned that some data could be sent back to the U.S., the people said."

The move appears to be a retaliation against U.S. restrictions on the use of communications equipment made by a slate of Chinese companies including Huawei, the Chinese tech giant that Washington has labeled a national security threat over fears it could spy for Beijing -- allegations which Huawei denies and which base more on overheating US-China rivalry than actual evidences.
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China Restricts Tesla Vehicles Over National Security Concerns More

China Restricts Tesla Vehicles Over National Security Concerns

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  • So... let's be clear (Score:4, Insightful)

    by franzrogar ( 3986783 ) on Friday March 19, 2021 @05:53PM (#61177444)

    Basically they saying that, as it has been proved before using the tracking of Apple Watch/Phones & Android Phones, you can track were military people work with a GPS...

    Surprise!

    Now just wait till the new baby pacifiers that come with GPS too.

    • Bring back Trump, he'd fix this in no time.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      Reminds me of that time the US military banned Furbies because they had microphones in them.

      I think the issue with Teslas is probably not just the GPS, it's the fact that they have 8 cameras on the outside and one on the inside. Obviously the US has satellite imagery of Chinese military facilities, but probably not street level images captured from a vehicle driving around the base.

  • The move appears to be a retaliation...

    Possibly, but if so, it's because they have fuck-all to use against us; they have everything to lose - and we have everything to gain - by re-developing certain industries before it's too late (when this country represents what little hope the world has against the CCP, the situation's dire indeed).

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Tailhook ( 98486 )

      (when this country represents what little hope the world has against the CCP, the situation's dire indeed)

      Our world has never had anything but this country to oppose commies. Nothing else at all.

      • Well, if you want to forget about the French that fought in Vietnam, Finland beating back the USSR in the Winter War, the Germans declaring war on Stalin, and that whole NATO thing, sure. I heard that's hip among, um, "free thinkers" lately. Bravo!

        • Hell even the Afghans pushed them out in the 80s.

        • Well, if you want to forget about the French that fought in Vietnam, Finland beating back the USSR in the Winter War, the Germans declaring war on Stalin, and that whole NATO thing, sure. I heard that's hip among, um, "free thinkers" lately. Bravo!

          But... bald eagles!

    • I mean, China correctly identified how reliant our farmers (and by extension, Republican lawmakers) are on agricultural exports. That's why since 2017 we've written tens of billions in checks to soften the blow of them no longer buying our food and instead sourcing it from South America.

      • So who are the people who previously bought from South America buying from now? Unless someone has a monopsony on a market, a unilateral attempt to lock out any one seller won't be very effective.

        • I don't know who those people are buying from. What I do know is China announced a tariff/boycott plan and the price of agricultural output of the US dropped and never recovered. We've put hundreds of billions of dollars in farmers hands to prevent massive farm bankruptcies since 2017.

  • Are they for real? How ironic is that? Only Big Brother Pooh can have millions of cameras to spy on its citizens?

  • Smart move (Score:5, Insightful)

    by phantomfive ( 622387 ) on Friday March 19, 2021 @05:55PM (#61177450) Journal

    Tesla is recording that stuff, the government will eventually try to get it. For high-security stuff, you don't want any parties outside your security circle to have video recordings.

  • Yeah, probably true (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Dutch Gun ( 899105 ) on Friday March 19, 2021 @05:55PM (#61177454)

    Even if it's a retaliatory move, honestly, I think this probably makes a certain amount of sense. Tesla can grab just about any sort of telemetry or data from inside their vehicles that they want. For a semi-hostile foreign power, that's absolutely a privacy or security threat, because Tesla is subject to US laws, and might be compelled to surveil specific foreign threats.

    At some point, any device with a ubiquitous internet connection, black box hardware/firmware, and self-updating software needs to be viewed as potentially hostile. It's then a matter of which sources you can trust most, or at all. I'm not sure if China realizes this, but they're basically admitting that their own devices, many of which fall into this category, also can't really be trusted by the US.

    • Re:Yeah, probably true (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Richard_at_work ( 517087 ) on Friday March 19, 2021 @06:02PM (#61177484)

      The difference between the US stance we have seen to date and this particular story is that the Chinese are restricting the use of Tesla vehicles for specific people in specific positions - military personnel and employees in sensitive positions, while the US stance is to ban Chinese stuff for all Americans.

      Seriously, how does this Chinese action really compare to the US banning TikTok or a Huawei device for a McDonalds worker?

      The US already restricts foreign devices for the similar sort of positions in the military and sensitive companies, so the Chinese doing this is a no brainer. But its not the same as a blanket ban on TikTok or Huawei in the US.

      • Because the Huwei bans are due to them moving into the network tier of the 5G infrastructure buildout, not simply personal devices.

        • Re:Yeah, probably true (Score:4, Insightful)

          by bill_mcgonigle ( 4333 ) * on Friday March 19, 2021 @06:43PM (#61177600) Homepage Journal

          > Because the Huwei bans are due to them moving into the network tier of the 5G infrastructure buildout, not simply personal devices

          Which the NSA can't backdoor, hosing up PRISIM, ECHELON, and the like. Some of the European countries are starting to cozy up to Huwei again.

          Remember when Obama tapped Angela Merkel's cell phone?

          • Remember when Obama tapped Angela Merkel's cell phone?

            Remember the other country that was part of that arrangement.

          • Remember when Obama tapped Angela Merkel's cell phone?

            Hot naked selfies on that phone, lemme tell ya.

          • Remember when Obama tapped Angela Merkel's cell phone?

            I looked for details on the topic, and it's not entirely clear that it actually happened.

        • Im sure the vast might of the United States Government could find some way to differentiate between a consumer handset and 5G infrastructure equipment - Im quite certain there are some visible differences for example...

          • Sure, but it doesn't get as much public attention or be as much as a financial penalty as sanctioning the company entirely.

            If they only said "US goverment agencies and telecoms cannot buy Huwei networking equipment" then even those of us on /. would be largely unaware of the restrictions.

      • Re:Yeah, probably true (Score:4, Insightful)

        by enigma32 ( 128601 ) on Friday March 19, 2021 @07:32PM (#61177770)

        Seriously, how does this Chinese action really compare to the US banning TikTok or a Huawei device for a McDonalds worker?

        The important bit you're missing here is that China already makes many foreign products/services unavailable within their country via the "great firewall" approach to censorship. You should be comparing TikTok/Huawei bans with Chinese citizen access to Western communications products or news, which has been ongoing for years.

        I think their action in this specific case makes complete sense from a security perspective. I also think the US flirting with the idea of blocking some Chinese services makes complete sense, since it would serve to balance the playing field. Whether the reasons for such choices (cited by the US government) match my rationale here is another matter.

        • You do realise that the US does the same thing for many many things, right - try operating a foreign owned airline within the US for example. None of this is new, but when you ban TikTok for “national security reasons” you become a laughing stock - or people start looking at you and wondering how you cant secure your sensitive facilities to the point where a foreign app on a mass produced phone is a security concern...

          If you are banning services on a tit-for-tat basis, then there are WTO rules

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          The important bit you're missing here is that China doesn't try to force it's domestic policy on other countries.

          China is positioning itself as the reliable, stable, and respectful partner. If you do business with the US you might be subject to US laws even on trading done elsewhere, and because the government can change every few years those laws are also ever-changing. China has a stable government and if you don't mind your citizens being on Google or Whatsapp then they won't pressure you to ban them.

          Of

          • Exactly this. I check out the comments to any China-related topics here on Slashdot and half of them are basically "but Communism!". It's silly and immature. The countries China invested heavily in by providing loans and building key infrastructure don't care. The countries that are forming trade partnerships with China and not the US don't care. They see China's economic growth and stability and see an opportunity.

            There's a lot about China that is concerning, but you can say the same of the US and that nev

          • I don't have a problem with them being communist. I have a problem with them violating a number of items in the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights. China should not be a member of the UN, or considered "the adult in the room", if they can't uphold the basic standards the world agreed upon. (See articles 18-21, in particular.)

            As for them not forcing their domestic policy on other countries---that's BS. They use their economic might every bit as much as (or moreso than) the US to get their way, and use

    • Even if it's a retaliatory move, honestly, I think this probably makes a certain amount of sense. Tesla can grab just about any sort of telemetry or data from inside their vehicles that they want. For a semi-hostile foreign power, that's absolutely a privacy or security threat, because Tesla is subject to US laws, and might be compelled to surveil specific foreign threats.

      This is false. The US doesn't work like that. US law does not allow for simply requiring that a company spy for the government. However spies are not expected to play by the rules.

      In order to accomplish something like this, the CIA has to infiltrate the company, bribe or blackmail people for illicit access, use that access to implant hidden code to capture and exfiltrate the information. All of this is illegal. If they get caught it is unlikely anyone will actually go to jail (spy gonna spy, after all.

  • Nobody should be recording anybody.

  • Hm (Score:2)

    by pele ( 151312 )

    Some may argue that Tesla gathers 100 times more data than huawei 5g kit. But not me. I'm thinking more like 150 times more.

  • Oh ho ho ho, that's rich! (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Rick Schumann ( 4662797 ) on Friday March 19, 2021 @06:07PM (#61177496) Journal
    So China, who wants to surveil the living fuck out of not only all their citizens 24 hours a day, is getting upset because Tesla could surveil them?

  • Chinese spies and diplomats finished their Tesla-visits to US installations.

  • If an person drives to their office and then maybe one more office, how is that a secret ?

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by ytene ( 4376651 )
      But, as the OP clearly states, this isn't just "any random person". From the initial post:-

      "China's government is restricting the use of Tesla's vehicles by military staff and employees of key state-owned companies"

      Let's try and answer your question... but think specifically about the restrictions being placed by China's government. Suppose a senior military officer in China lives off-base. They commute to their base every day via Tesla. But then they're given a new assignment, or a new mission. Maybe
      • > Suppose a senior military officer in China lives off-base. They commute to their base every day via Tesla. But then they're given a new assignment, or a new mission. Maybe they need to go to a location that isn't obviously a military base.
        All military bases are known by everyone. If its a secret base then guess what its probably in the middl e of nowhere and people live on base. Again hardly a secret because they tend to be big and big things are seen by flying satellites.
        > That's a link to an a

  • Remember the fitbits at army bases? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by stikves ( 127823 ) on Friday March 19, 2021 @08:15PM (#61177864) Homepage

    A while ago people discovered hidden army bases thanks to public exercise device data:
      https://www.theguardian.com/wo... [theguardian.com]

    Just look at the pictures, the soldiers running have essentially mapped the entire complex, and given enough information to recognize patrol routes.

    It was obviously a big issue, and hence army asked the soldiers to stop.

    It is not too different for China to realize Tesla will have the same data, but this time for public and private routes.

    [ filter: this is not ascii art ]

  • Really not unfounded (Score:4, Interesting)

    by istartedi ( 132515 ) on Friday March 19, 2021 @10:32PM (#61178232) Journal

    As others have pointed out, the cars are a total surveillance platform: cameras, telemetry, updates pushed from the network, etc. Furthermore, while Tesla is a separate company, Elon Musk also runs SpaceX. It's virtually impossible to be involved with aerospace and not also be involved with the US military. If he's doing secret projects, he's not telling anybody.

    The only real question is, "What took ya so long?"

  • It's not totally unreasonable, and at the current stage there's not really any downside. It's not like Tesla has a large market penetration in China, and now it's pretty assured they never will. The tell will be when they don't ban similar vehicles they approve of.

    If you really want to make sure your military is not carrying or driving Trojan Horse technology, you have to provide it yourself. Check everything at the guard shack when you come in, and use only state-provided resources while in the facility. I

  • smart move (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Tom ( 822 ) on Saturday March 20, 2021 @01:53AM (#61178472) Homepage Journal

    The move appears to be a retaliation against U.S. restrictions on the use of communications equipment made by a slate of Chinese companies

    No, it's not. It's a good, well-informed call that I would've made as well if someone had asked me for an assessment - and I'm a Tesla fan and hold a few stocks.

    In a high-security environment, it is not acceptable that the car gathers the amount of data it does, including precise driving routes. You can't have things like Sentry Mode when the car is possibly parked in a high-security area where cameras are not allowed.

    Until Tesla offers a mode to turn off all cameras, positioning and online features, nobody sane can allow their cars into high security areas or to drive around high-security people - the kind of people your enemy may be interested in knowing when they went where and where they are right now.

  • BS (Score:2)

    by Shaitan ( 22585 )

    "allegations which Huawei denies and which base more on overheating US-China rivalry than actual evidences."

    False and Ridiculous.

  • Here we were, Tesla being so excited not too long ago, to be in China, building a giga factory, thinking it will make a difference.

  • Traditionally, almost in every country the government and military will only use vehicles built by local companies. For example, it took a lot of effort in the EU to move away from these policies to the current situation where such contracts are (required to be) open to bidding by any party.
    Or does the forced Chinese-controlled joint venture operation of foreign companies in China make them see these Teslas as Chinese vehicles?

  • China is an expert on exploiting security leaks, although I doubt if your Tesla car is spying on you other than recording vehicle conditions in its "black box." Makes me wonder if Elon Musk was smart to build a factory in China where they retaliate against foreign competition all the time.

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