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Communications Network The Internet

Striking Charter Workers Build ISP Where 'Profits Are Returned To Users' (arstechnica.com) 79

Posted by BeauHD from the power-to-the-people dept.
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Ars Technica: Charter Communications employees who have been on strike since 2017 are building an Internet service provider in New York City called "People's Choice." "People's Choice Communications is an employee-owned social enterprise launched by members of IBEW Local #3 to bridge the digital divide and help our neighbors get connected to the Internet during the COVID-19 pandemic," the ISP's website says. "We are the workers who built a large part of New York City's Internet infrastructure in the first place. We built out [Charter] Spectrum's cable system, until in 2017, the company pushed us out on strike by taking away our healthcare, retirement, and other benefits. It's now the longest strike in US history."

So far, People's Choice says it has completed rooftop antenna installations at two schools in the Bronx and installed "hardline connections to wireless access points connecting 121 units" at housing for survivors of domestic violence who have disabilities. A Gizmodo article said the system is equipped to offer minimum speeds of 25Mbps downstream and 3Mbps upstream, meeting a broadband standard that has been used by the Federal Communications Commission since 2015. "We have a big portion of most of the Bronx covered with our antenna," IBEW Local #3 steward Troy Walcott told Gizmodo. "Now we have to go building by building to let people know we're out there and start turning them on." "A few dozen Spectrum strikers have been actively involved in the installations, but Walcott expects that at least one hundred workers are waiting in the wings for the project to scale up," the Gizmodo article said. "We work in affordable housing, supportive housing, co-op housing, NYCHA [NYC Housing Authority], homeless shelters, and regular old apartment complexes," the webpage notes. You can fill out this form if you're interested in bringing broadband to your building.

"After we build out a network in your building, it transfers to cooperative ownership, so profits are returned to users," the People's Choice website says. "We are able to provide high-speed service in most cases for $10-$20/month. No more cable company ripping you off, and as an owner, you have a vote in policies like data privacy."
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Striking Charter Workers Build ISP Where 'Profits Are Returned To Users' More

Striking Charter Workers Build ISP Where 'Profits Are Returned To Users'

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  • Charter doesn't offer PPOs (Score:3)

    by sizzlinkitty ( 1199479 ) on Thursday April 15, 2021 @11:42PM (#61279286)

    I worked at Charter 2018-2019 and was blown away by their lack of healthcare options. The healthcare plan was strictly HSA, didn't offer PPO for the network security organization. I would expect light years better from a fortune 50 company or whatever they claim to be these days.

    • HSA and PPO aren't mutually exclusive; my health insurance plan is both. My company also offers a HMO plan that is FSA eligible, but the HSA plans will cost you less in the long run if you're willing to deal with the $1500 deductible (though the fact that they put $750 into your HSA account each year effectively lowers that.) It's also helped in my case that basically every doctor I see is a specialist for my kidney transplant and all the problems that go along with that, so I get to skip seeing the primary

      • $1500? My HSA deductible is $6000 and my employer puts $0 in it each year.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by deKernel ( 65640 )

          Then get a different job. Why in the heck to people feel the need to chain themselves to a job they don't like. I get so frustrated when people complain about their employer, but then do ZERO to change their situation.

          • In addition to going to a different employer, also nag your Congress critters to support either a public option or some form of single-payer healthcare. Employer should have nothing to do with your health coverage and your relationship with them should be strictly cash only.

            • Re: (Score:2, Troll)

              by deKernel ( 65640 )

              Heck no to a single payer system. There is no place for the government to be between you and your health insurance provider...and no, I don't want the government to be the provider. The government just needs to break down the barrier that many states put in place so you can take your coverage with you if you move. That way there is no preexisting condition issue. For the life of me, I don't understand why people want the Federal government to have so much control of their daily activities.

              • Re: (Score:1)

                by whitroth ( 9367 )

                Ok, who's paying you? Which medical insurance company?

                Not one word you said was true. Oh, and the "goverment getting between you and a doctor"? Right... and you've never worked anywhere that one year, they no longer offered the insurance you've been on, because they cranked up their ROI, sorry, rates too high that year?

                Sucker. Every. Other. Industrialized. Nation. has a form of national healthcare... while US companies have to pay a ton to support health insurance co. ROI, and still compete. Funny, every ot

                • Accusing someone who thinks differently then you for being paid off is dishonest and shows how close minded you are. You cannot even entertain the idea that people may think differently then you.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by whitroth ( 9367 )

            Right, there's *so* many jobs out there for folks that work in that category.

            Yup. And after the dot-com bubble burst, I was out of work for almost FIVE YEARS, and I had a B.Sc, CIS, and 20 years experience... and I was looking in four or five metro areas around the US.

            You are so full of it....

          • >Then get a different job.

            Nahh. I like my job and the pay.

        • That's pretty bad, my out of pocket maximum is only $4000. I'd find someplace else to work. The tech sector is super competitive right now, so it shouldn't be hard to do even if your skill level is mediocre.

  • Cooperative ownership? (Score:1, Insightful)

    by vlad30 ( 44644 )
    I generally like this but with experience cooperative ownership tends to fail when some think they are more entitled than others additionally what happens when the upstream providers decide that they don't deserve a cost break or can afford a higher monthly or per GB charge. regardless I hope it succeeds

    • Re:Cooperative ownership? (Score:4, Informative)

      by ISayWeOnlyToBePolite ( 721679 ) on Friday April 16, 2021 @01:10AM (#61279392)

      The Vanguard Group and a few insurance companies and credit unions comes to mind as customer owned successful businesses (in practice they more or less run themselves, as customers are mostly passive owners) so I believe there's precedence in the financial business that something similar could work. I think it depends a lot on the organisation of the company and perhaps that's why these afaik is more prevalent in the financial industry as roles and conflicts of interest are more well defined.

      • Re:Cooperative ownership? (Score:4, Interesting)

        by Tony Isaac ( 1301187 ) on Friday April 16, 2021 @08:56AM (#61280024) Homepage

        Also, Amica insurance, all credit unions, and farmer's coops across the country are examples of successful coops.

        • Can't speak for the others, but credit unions can and do behave much like a normal bank does, even though in theory they're member owned. I'm in a credit union, and the usual banking shit happens there, like tellers trying to get me to sign up for accounts that I don't need, sales promotions with car dealerships, life insurance offers, the usual retail banking fees, etc.

          They're not as bad as BoA, Wells Fargo, or Chase, which is why I still use them for my local banking needs. (For my routine banking needs,

          • A credit union is a bank, not just like a bank. The only difference is that as a member and depositor you're an owner as well. It's a private company where the customers all collectively own the business.

            • I used to work at a Credit Union.
              Every year, they had a "member owners" meeting that anyone with an account could come to. Free tickets to stuff, they'd hand out prizes, and each board member would talk about banking issues over the previous year, expectations for the following year, and solicit questions. Big catered meal in the main lobby of the building as well.
              The only people who ever showed up were employees currying favor with the board members, and roughly five people who showed up every year to eat

      • The Vanguard Group and a few insurance companies and credit unions comes to mind as customer owned successful businesses (in practice they more or less run themselves, as customers are mostly passive owners)

        Those types of organizations all generate revenue by investing their customers' assets. What does that have to do with running an ISP?

    • There's a lot of successful models in finance, insurance and various models of employee owned firms in like engineering/law...

      More power to them. The US is especially good at doing these kind of things. One of the most recent initiatives was drug prices. A group of US hospitals (which are mainly non-profit) created a non-profit drug manufacturer https://civicarx.org/ [civicarx.org].

      It's a good model. But at the end of the day, its like any other business. Some will be good. Some will fail.

      I'm most familiar with banking. I

    • I generally like this but with experience cooperative ownership tends to fail when some think they are more entitled than others additionally what happens when the upstream providers decide that they don't deserve a cost break or can afford a higher monthly or per GB charge. regardless I hope it succeeds

      Others have pointed out how important coops are in other sectors, but I want to mention power because the internet is kind of the new electricity in a lot of ways.

      12% of US electricity is provided by coops, and they're big in Texas. I think the general trend is you'll find them in places that big power companies found not profitable enough to bother with, like rural Midwest farming communities for example. A lot were born out of a New Deal loan program.

      It sounds familiar right? Infrastructure that we're

  • This is why cable companies lobby (Score:5, Insightful)

    by adfraggs ( 4718383 ) on Friday April 16, 2021 @12:33AM (#61279338)

    They are terrified that government, community or co-operative broadband will prove itself a viable and attractive alternative.

  • Wireless seems like a great way to cause pain (Score:3)

    by aaarrrgggh ( 9205 ) on Friday April 16, 2021 @01:18AM (#61279410)

    I can see how it would tick off Charter/Spectrum, but wireless seems like a difficult win for the Bronx. Ok, maybe not everybody is looking for symmetric gigabit connections, but still.

    I get the idea of building out a node in a building and having flexibility from there, but the last mile needs more than wireless and that is the hard part for competing with the incumbents.

    • Decent wires would seem to make more sense in densely populated places. But if no one else is providing the service, you need to do what can be done.
      I've got wireless symmetric half a gig (at least in a place where it makes sense) and it's working fine.

      • Wires need capital. You need to buy right-of-way from the owners of all the land that cable crosses - which can be multiple properties in a city. You need to pay the local government for access to their poles, and a lot more for digging up roads. You need to hire crews to physically put the cable in, with all the associated digging and climbing.

        There's a reason that so many places are served by a single ISP: Once the first to enter has footed the substantial bill for laying cables, it's not viable for someo

        • Re:Wireless seems like a great way to cause pain (Score:5, Insightful)

          by TechyImmigrant ( 175943 ) on Friday April 16, 2021 @02:32AM (#61279510) Homepage Journal

          There was a time when governments recognized essential utility services and regulated the provision so that everybody got them. Things like electricity, telephones, gas and water. It seems they dropped the ball with data so we have a patchwork of unregulated private monopolies which sucks for pretty much everyone except the monopolies.

          • There was a time when governments recognized essential utility services and regulated the provision so that everybody got them. Things like electricity, telephones, gas and water.

            Which would be today. Fortunately, there hasn't been any innovation in water and sewer service in the last two centuries so it's fine if they evolve at a glacial pace. Oh, except NYC where the waste water system still can't handle garbage disposals.

            There is innovation in power and guess what? My city gives me a choice of which power generators I can subscribe to: a "green" provider and the incumbent traditional utility. Let's hope that trend continues. California tried and botched that system 20 years ago b

            • >> My city gives me a choice of which power generators I can subscribe to: a "green" provider and the incumbent traditional utility. Let's hope that trend continues.

              Yeah, it works so well in Texas. We have an unaccountable patchwork of providers, power plants, suppliers, etc with zero incentive to "innovate". Hundreds died during the freeze (including my 5-yr-old nephew's classmate).

            • Oh, except NYC where the waste water system still can't handle garbage disposals.

              The city wastewater system can handle it. It's the older plumbing in the individual buildings that is the issue.

              https://www.brickunderground.com/blog/2010/05/are_garbage_disposals_illegal_in_new_york

            • More like 2005, where the Chevron doctrine was decided to be the controlling factor in the Brand X internet case. You know, the decision that gave the most power to the federal government instead of creating a dilineating line.

            • >Dunno about you but I can get internet and phone service at my home from at least two landline and a handful of wireless-only providers. Hardly monopolies. And I'm pretty sure AT&T would not call themselves "unregulated".

              Well good for you. You may or may not be aware that most people are not so blessed with a multitude of ISP options.

        • Really? Both Comcast and Verizon both run through my property, I don't get a penny. I once tried to stop them from digging, but apparently I cannot. The government gives them right-of-way to my property and I have absolutely no say. They are supposed to "restore the property after digging to a reasonable state", but unclear as to what "reasonable" means; grow back in a month, a year, a decade, a century? This is why by the way, I believe the government has full right to regulate the crap out of those compan

          • They can because the title has a recorded easement. In the US land ownership is almost always fee simple, which allows for encumbrances. Larger properties (e.g. a farm) might not have a utility easement, in which case the utility would need to seek a right away from the owner.

            Encumbrances diminish the value of the property in various ways (e.g. landscaping not being restored after utility work), thus the owner should account for the encumbrances when evaluating the purchase price.

            I only researched this be

            • I understand what you're saying, but who decides who uses those encumbrances? You said utilities, but internet service is not officially designated as a utility in the USA (though there have been some attempts before https://arstechnica.com/inform... [arstechnica.com]), so does that mean I can pull out any internet service cables running through my property, or are you saying my encumbrances list all the companies which can dig through my yard by name, and if so, where can I find that list?

          • And usually the utilities have to buy access to the utility easement from a municipality.

          • They paid someone for that right-of-way. They just didn't pay *you*.

    • It's a better plan than I pay $50/month for.

    • Fixed point-to-point wireless has come a long way. Two devices for a complete 60 GHz gigabit link can be bought for less than $200.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      It's ridiculous that new estates are being built without conduit or even better fibre pre-installed.

    • At $10-$20 per month, I don't think they're going to have any trouble in the competition department.

      They clearly say they're targeting customers with a limited budget - gigabit is not something anyone in that market segment is going to be realistically looking for. And wireless has far lower per-client installation and infrastructure costs. Especially if you assume all the clients in a building are sharing the same small cluster of ISP-owned wifi routers.

      Besides, if they can reliably deliver an actual 25M

  • Sounds like the same idea as https://www.nycmesh.net/ [nycmesh.net] [nycmesh.net] - which focuses on lower Manhattan and western Brooklyn, but with a much more 2600/hobbyist feel to it.

  • Define "ISP" (Score:3)

    by kenh ( 9056 ) on Friday April 16, 2021 @03:05AM (#61279544) Homepage Journal

    They've wired two school buildings with WiFi access points and one 121 unit shelter, all laudable efforts to be sure, but does this really qualify them as an ISP?

    And about this strike - they've been striking for 3 years plus, isn't there a point where the workers give up and move on? Would they really go back to work after being out for so long? Would their skill-set still be valuable enough to justify bringing them back - I suspect the industry has moved on since 2017?

    • Passive Optical Networks are very large mechanical effort, for one particular reason, it is a labling effort to deploy a consitant maintainable network. QA testing is just a light level and works about the same on a rainy day. Pass QA and close the cover without pinching a strand. I was there for the last cheer for coax....it sucked compaired to fiber, twised pair sucked compaiered to coax. The actual skill went down and the labeling effort went up. The game was over when the LECs started contracti

    • They've wired two school buildings with WiFi access points and one 121 unit shelter, all laudable efforts to be sure, but does this really qualify them as an ISP?

      I guess so, just a very small and stripped down one. Back in the day of independent ISPs, that's what they all did: leased some huge upstream pipe and sold fractional access to it. What's different here is the original ISPs generally didn't sell last-mile connectivity, that came from a phone company. These guys do. I don't think they're the first to sell fixed wireless connectivity though. And I doubt they're the first ISP co-op so I'm not sure why this is news.

      That being said, I hope this works out. It's a

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by EvilSS ( 557649 )
      Sounds like they are setup to operate as a WISP, which yes, is an ISP.

      • But as soon as they install infrastructure, they hand it off to the facility/residents.

        They don't have a 'central office' where they connect to the internet, and they don't appear to be running fiber from their head office to premises.

        It looks like what they are doing is negotiating internet access from a major carrier, building out the 'last mile' inside a facility or putting up a wireless tower, and then handing off to someone else.

        The only infrastructure they own or manage is that which is under construc

  • Longest Strike (Score:4, Interesting)

    by TwoUtes ( 1075403 ) on Friday April 16, 2021 @03:45AM (#61279592)
    The longest strike in U.S. history was when the International Association of Machinists walked out of Brown and Sharpe in 1981. That strike officially lasted 17 years. These guys have a long way to go. https://www.rihs.org/mssinv/Ms... [rihs.org]

  • That ...sweet spot (Score:3)

    by BAReFO0t ( 6240524 ) on Friday April 16, 2021 @03:56AM (#61279602)

    This it the sweet spot where capitalism and communism, libertarianism, socialism and democracy meet. All the ideals of all of them, none of the disadvantages and unrealistic delusions of of any of them.

    I always said if you go all the way, all those philosophies become efectively the same or at least fully compatible and working hand in hand. Not enemies like we're told.
    Because in the end, everyone (normal) wants everyone to be happy, but not at the cost of anyone else (like themselves).
    And all you gotta do is not be a dick, and work together.

    I'm proud of you, America.

    • You mean capitalism with a heavy libertarianism bent. Communism and socials in a tiny box, like the nighmare sized spiders at the zoo.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by flink ( 18449 )

        Yup, there's nothing socialist about the workers owning the company they are working for and cutting out the capitalist class...

        • Yup, there's nothing socialist about the workers owning the company they are working for and cutting out the capitalist class...

          This is where I have trouble with Marxist terminology. There still are capitalists but they're also customers and workers. Classes overlap.

          Or to put it a different way, there are very few people who are purely in the worker or capitalist class. Everyone is a mix of both.

          • Customers aren't really a class. Everyone is a customer, from a king down to the pauper. And a "capitalist class" is not really a thing per se. There may be a wealthy class, but everyone from top to bottom has some money invested in capital and that makes you a capitalist. Back in Marx's day, this was different, workers in many countries did not have bank acocunts, and absolutely did not have retirement accounts with which to invest with, and any wealthy they could scrimp for was put in the mattress. T

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by flink ( 18449 )

              The worker class didn't mean everyone who had a job, It's an unusual concept to Americans where we're told that classes don't exist. But head over to England and they certainly know exactly what the working class is and know that it does not include accountants or middle managers or people who wear ties on the job.

              I think this is a false consciousness that artificially divides the working class. The accountant, although they might be better off, has more in common with the janitor in terms of class interest than they do with the CEO. Both the janitor and and the accountant make their living selling their labor and both have their labor exploited by capital.

  • United States Patriots Internet Service Provider.
    "US Patriots ISP" for short

    "US Patriots ISP - for the people by the people"
  • Wait, you can be on strike for 4 years and still not lose your job?

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by zekica ( 1953180 )
      Yes, if you are a part of an union.
      • Unless the union becomes obsolete during the strike. With geo specific jobs like maintaining a distribution network within cable company footprint who says the maintained cannot be contracted out to non union shop during the time of the strike. The truck skills are just standards and practices that cosistant hanging coax, fiber or twisted pairs , the people who decide how to trench, how to partner, how to deal with the city are not union. If success is near immediate with a contractor acquire the supp

    • Yes, but that does not mean they are collecting a paycheck. However the strike is long enough that the original contract has most certainly been violated. If hypothetically the contract was still valid, then when the dispute is resolved the union workers get first dibs for the old jobs. Practically speaking though, it's null and void as unions have little power anymore and the employer managed to hire scabs in the meantime and will keep them.

  • they have my full support, i will be the first to sign on, ISP broadband monopolies are the real pirates,
    • What happens when the company calls back the union and work order of this hippy company sits half done with a pile of gear to be installed.

      • They quit their "old job" and continue with "their new job".

      • What happens when the company calls back the union and work order of this hippy company sits half done with a pile of gear to be installed.

        While anything is possible, I’m guessing Charter will offer $20/unlimited/1GB service before that happens, i.e. never. At this point, given the history, some workers would return just to screw over Charter; plus Charter would be faced with firing replacements since the union would not want them to stay employed by Charter.

  • Is it not illegal to run a communist company in the USA?

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by EvilSS ( 557649 )
      It's called a co-op. Google is your comrade.

    • Why would what they're doing be illegal, like what justification would there be for that? The only reason things like this are uncommon is that usually people that start companies want to keep the profits and control for themselves, not that they are required to do so. I suppose if this sort of thing started to become common to where it began to threaten privately-owned companies then they might try to make it illegal, but I'd like to see them try to explain why it should be illegal for people to distribute

      • Why would what they're doing be illegal, like what justification would there be for that?
        Because it is communism!! Americans hate communism!

  • These guy won't be able to provide high speed service to enough paying customers to get Charter's attention any more than their strike has bothered the company.
  • Doesn't it violate their contract to start up a competitor while they are on strike? It seems like from the union perspective, this would be hurting workers who eventually return to work. I'm glad they are not being idle but that's the whole point of a strike.
    • Ongoing strikes like these typically mean the company is already in breach of contract, and they're attempting to reconcile. So I'm guessing the contract is void at this point. Since you've decided to speculate without evidence, so shall I.

      • Ongoing strikes like these typically mean the company is already in breach of contract, and they're attempting to reconcile. So I'm guessing the contract is void at this point. Since you've decided to speculate without evidence, so shall I.

        I did not draw a conclusion, I was asking a question. Let me boil it down further: are striking union members allowed to work elsewhere in the same industry while still being employed and a member of the union? That's it.

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