Freenode IRC Staff Quit After New Owner 'Seizes' Control of Network (boingboing.net) 145
Staff at the world's largest FOSS IRC network, Freenode, have resigned following a "hostile takeover." "Seeking to take control of the Freenode IRC network after acquiring Freenode Limited as their live conference organization is reported to be Andrew Lee, the founder of VPN service Private Internet Access (PIA)," reports Phoronix. Aaron Jones, a member of the staff since March 2019, details the sequence of events. Another staff member has provided additional details. Slashdot reader rastos1 writes: As it is now known, the Freenode IRC network has been taken over by a "narcissistic Trumpian wannabe korean royalty bitcoins millionaire," [writes (former) staff member Marco d'Itri]. "To make a long story short, the former freenode head of staff secretly 'sold' the network to this person even if it was not hers to sell, and our lawyers have advised us that there is not much that we can do about it without some of us risking financial ruin."
Fuck you Christel, lilo's life work did not deserve this. What you knew as Freenode after 12:00 UTC of May 19 will be managed by different people. Freenode Limited has responded to the backlash, writing: "Given the millions I have injected into freenode thus far, the fact I own it and the fact that I protected the freenode staff with professional legal work and funding when they needed help and they could still lie and slander like this... says a lot about who they are. It saddens me that christel was forced out, and I wish she'd feel safe returning. I'm frustrated that tomaw's hostile takeover seems likely to succeed, in spite of all. I simply want freenode to keep on being a great IRC network, and to support it financially and legally as I have for a long time now."
Fuck you Christel, lilo's life work did not deserve this. What you knew as Freenode after 12:00 UTC of May 19 will be managed by different people. Freenode Limited has responded to the backlash, writing: "Given the millions I have injected into freenode thus far, the fact I own it and the fact that I protected the freenode staff with professional legal work and funding when they needed help and they could still lie and slander like this... says a lot about who they are. It saddens me that christel was forced out, and I wish she'd feel safe returning. I'm frustrated that tomaw's hostile takeover seems likely to succeed, in spite of all. I simply want freenode to keep on being a great IRC network, and to support it financially and legally as I have for a long time now."
Time to move (Score:2, Funny)
Probably to Discord.
mass exodis (Score:5, Insightful)
There was an almost immediate mass-exodus this morning to irc.libera.chat, where rooms are being rebuilt and libera is basically suffering from a new-user-signup-flood.
This is supported by at least a fair size chunk of the admins that resigned on hearing they had been lied to and strung along. The biggest sin seems to be the user data was also sold, something they were promised would NEVER happen. But I'm not party to this, so it's all second-hand information.
https://www.kline.sh/ [kline.sh] for more information and links. Most close to the meltdown seem to agree with that version of the events. Please reply to this post with more links if you have additional details.
Re: (Score:3)
The fact they can even do that speaks to the resiliency of FOSS. All it requires is servers, and those are easy to procure.
Re: mass exodis (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, IRC is a *protocol*. A *standard*. Anyone can code a client So you do not *have* to have access to any source.
Which is one step up from even FLOSS, let alone mere open source.
Remember: Every time somebody creates software that does not use such open standards, nor creates a new open one for everyone, it is for one and only one reason: To rob you, using the weapon of anti-competitive lock-in.
(Case in point: WhatsApp. Which internally originally was just a bog-standard Jabber client, with the only addition being lock-in.)
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Remember: Every time somebody creates software that does not use such open standards, nor creates a new open one for everyone, it is for one and only one reason: To rob you, using the weapon of anti-competitive lock-in.
(Case in point: WhatsApp. Which internally originally was just a bog-standard Jabber client, with the only addition being lock-in.)
Or maybe the original custodians were so stubborn as to not extend the standard in a meaningful way that people had to take drastic action. But that's not what's actually taken place here, is it? A takeover doesn't mean they've adopted a new standard or tried to change IRC in some way?
Re:Time to move (Score:5, Funny)
Probably to Discord.
Nadella: Pretty sure you meant to type Teams.
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Fedora project is convinced that Matrix [matrix.org] is the future. And at the moment they are running IRC bridges between the #Fedora channel on IRC and #Fedora:matrix.org channel.
drama (Score:4, Insightful)
After casually using freenode for decades and actually reading the article I'm no closer to actually understanding what the hell is going on. Would someone who actually knows the situation care to comment about who actually owns what and why the resigning staff seem to hate the new owner (I guess?) so much?
Re:drama (Score:5, Informative)
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Thank you, that was helpful. Still not totally clear on who owns what (new company owns the domains and user data but not the servers?). The whole situation sounds messy as hell.
Re:drama (Score:4, Informative)
(new company owns the domains and user data but not the servers?)
I believe Freenode never owned the servers. Other companies donate the use of those companies' servers, and the servers connect to each other to form the Freenode network.
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Wow:
That's pretty blatant defamation per se. It predicts the new manager will set up a not-"a safe place" based on undisclosed defamatory facts. I hope whoever wrote that has a good lawyer.
IANAL but it's the furthest thing from defamation. First, "I personally believe" implies it's an opinion, not a fact, and it's a lot harder to sue people for defamation based on opinions. Second, "will not be a safe place" is a really vague warning. It could mean it's going to infested with ads, with hostile users, will IP addressed be harvested, etc, etc. There's no specific potentially false allegations to sue over.
Basically they're saying they really don't trust the new owner, and based on just the publi
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YANALE, and you're assuming that the "undisclosed defamatory facts" are untrue. Your own damn link indicates that if they ARE true, even if undisclosed, there's no defamation (except perhaps in Massachussetts and a few other places).
You're treading dangerously close to providing legal advice, and bad advice at that.
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Read the first link more closely -- specifically the "my neighbor is an alcoholic" example from Restatement (Second) of Torts. If you want more context about that, read this [washingtonpost.com]. Even if undisclosed defamatory facts are true, the resulting conclusion can be defamatory -- because the facts are undisclosed, the reader or listener cannot make their own judgment, and this creates legal liability.
You can take your flat-wrong opinions about both defamation and legal advice and shove them back where they belong.
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The statement that "I personally believe that Freenode will not be a safe place for you going forward" wouldn't be defamation even in the UK with our strict libel laws.
On top of it being a personal opinion clearly stated as such, and it not making any specific allegations, and it being very vague, just who the fuck is supposedly being defamed?
Utter nonsense.
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So if an article starts "bank robbers caught robbing bank", we shouldn't trust it?
A factual statement that someone has taken over a volunteer organization and has done so in such an underhanded and dishonest way that a majority of the volunteers quit is a simple statement of fact. I now challenge you to pick out one word of the original statement that is counter-factual to the information that has been released by numerous volunteers.
Re:drama (Score:5, Insightful)
After casually using freenode for decades and actually reading the article I'm no closer to actually understanding what the hell is going on. Would someone who actually knows the situation care to comment about who actually owns what and why the resigning staff seem to hate the new owner (I guess?) so much?
I don't know anything other than what's in the links, and it is hard to find all the specific details (even those involved may still be unsure). But the long story short seems to be:
1) At some point (this year?) Andrew Lee started sponsoring Freenode with an agreement/understanding he was a sponsor but had no say or control.
2) At a later time the head of Freenode staff apparently sold the holding company to Andrew Lee. It sounds like this was done in secret and was probably beyond the person's authority.
3) Freenode staff found out when Andrew Lee started acting like he now owned Freenode and that's when things went bad.
There's a bunch of he-said/she-said but Andrew Lee's account had a massive red flag [github.com]:
1. Shells sponsors freenode providing 3k/mo.
[...]
5. Tomaw turns around and asks me a bunch of questions if I'm going
to challenge his control. He also says he understands I am the
owner. I suggest that freenode needs decentralization and good
governance, to prevent the kinds of hasty destabilizing things that
have transpired.
So Lee went from sponsor in step 1 to owner in step 5. Why doesn't his timeline detail how he actually came to have ownership?
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At a later time the head of Freenode staff apparently sold the holding company to Andrew Lee. It sounds like this was done in secret and was probably beyond the person's authority.
If it's in your name and no contract prevents it then you have the authority. If it isn't, how do you sell it?
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At a later time the head of Freenode staff apparently sold the holding company to Andrew Lee. It sounds like this was done in secret and was probably beyond the person's authority.
If it's in your name and no contract prevents it then you have the authority. If it isn't, how do you sell it?
You're assuming there's wasn't a contract or agreement that she couldn't sell it, but if the contract was vague enough or no one was in a position to enforce it then they might have simply ignored it.
But to my point, the fact that Andrew Lee, who is clearly trying to defend himself, stays completely silent on how or when he became owner... There's probably a reason he doesn't want to talk about it.
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I'm still trying to wrap my head around the fact someone sold, or bought, a IRC network.
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Subject Required (Score:5, Informative)
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I feel like the /. article is tilted as far to the Andrew Lee side as possible. Marco d'Itri's notice was by far (to me) the most hostile/antagonistic, and also the one that lacked all of the citations that others had (scroll down on his to see links to others: https://blog.bofh.it/debian/id... [blog.bofh.it]). Several of the others all say the same thing in one way or another, part of which is that the "millions injected" is bullshit, as is the "forced christel out".
I'm not saying I know what the concrete facts are, but about 12 of the staff members all say the same thing, and many have cited chat logs and events showing their side of the story. None of that is mentioned here.
One interesting observation is that Andrew Lee's own account [github.com] skips over the part where he acquired ownership.
Considering the detail he goes into on other aspects one might expect him to present his side on the principal complaint.
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Yeah, in just reading through chat logs (e.g. this one in which rasengan publicly accepts the "resignations" from staff [paste.sr.ht] after he acquired leaked letters of resignation they had drafted in case he gained control of the servers), you can quickly get a sense for the players, their values, and what sorts of people they are.
I have no horse in this race (i.e. I've heard of Freenode, but I have no specific recollection of ever having used it and certainly never had interactions with any of these people), but it se
IRC is still a thing? (Score:1)
Amazing that IRC is still a thing. Why?
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Its protocol is easy to handle even by the dumbest NPCs.
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Oh you
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:IRC is still a thing? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's a protocol that works and is well-supported. It has open-source clients and servers available on every platform. To create your own instance you only don't need to do anything more complex than install and set up a Linux server.
Comes in very handy if you want to break off from any (or all) of the major networks if you don't like how they're run. Or set up a place to chat on the darknet.
Having to type in a server name and use CLI-like commands to register an account also serves as an intelligence test for entry. Doesn't sound like a high bar - and it's not - but it works surprisingly well at keeping the bottom quartile out.
I was using it on a daily basis about a year ago, and it wouldn't surprise me if I ended up using it again for some reason or another. Facefuck and Twitbook? No chance.
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Gomuks on Matrix.org would satisfy most cli jockeys.
https://docs.mau.fi/gomuks/com... [docs.mau.fi]
IRC has given way to Telegram, unfortunately, but Matrix does it right.
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Irony of ironies when an ideology that talks big about freedom sees no hypocrisy in requiring even in jest an intelligence test to be a member of that freedom.
Believing in freedom, and not wanting to deal with stupid people, are not mutually exclusive.
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I'm actually a brain typing on a keyboard, not "an ideology." That's one of the stranger attempts I've seen at constructing a straw man. It doesn't even compute, grammatically.
It was not in jest either. If you want to log into my IRC server, or visit my house, I can put any kind of conditions on that I want. I can tell you you have to bring beer, I can kick you out if it's time for me to go to work, or if you don't suck my dick after a few hours. In fact, I do these things all the time. Go on, do tell me wh
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It's like Slack but free (as in speech).
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And without its bloatness. Pure text.
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Kind of a backwards way to put it, since Slack is built on the core of IRC, adding stuff on top to make it more friendly for the newer generations and people who don't like almost pure text and having to click on links.
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But Slack is not free.
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Ideology isn't everything. [vice.com]
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It's the only thing.
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I don't know. I check it out a couple time a year and each time IRC seems to be a shadow of it's former peak glory days of the late 90's.
Perhaps IRC is still a thing because perhaps it's a place where normal people can enjoy socializing-with-others online instead of socially-antagonizing-others online, which is what antisocial media, MSM, and much of the www have become and thoroughly encourage.
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People need to chat and it's a well supported open protocol unlike the majority of fragmented commercially-operated messenger protocols that have come and gone over the years.
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433 users in currently in #ceph on oftc. It's still kicking around.
Re: Well, that's a surprise. (Score:3, Insightful)
IRC is waaay older than AIM, and is a open and extensible protocol, and likely literally what's used inside Discord, unless they re-invented that wheel, badly, *!with moar layers!*.
So it's not going anywhere.
It is usually a great filter, as only those with a clue with use it. Eternal September mostly hasn't ruined it yet. Unless you go to the real popular big channels, like those on C or C++.
Gentoo and Haskell have great IRC communities that almost always offer clearly competent people. Haskell's is also ex
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Re:IRC is still a thing? (Score:5, Funny)
Post on slashdot? If anyone misses the first time tune in later for the dupe.
What VPN to use instead of PIA? (Score:1)
Re: What VPN to use instead of PIA? (Score:1)
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I've got PIA right now. When the time I've already paid for is up, I'll be moving on...I don't want to be involved with them anymore, either. Bearing in mind I haven't done any serious investigation yet because I've still got a couple of months to go, SurfShark and Nord VPN seem pretty good.
If your needs are minimal, you can use the Epic browser, which has a free built-in VPN. For the paid ones, check out a site that evaluates them. Different services are optimized for different needs.
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Set up an AWS instance and run OpenSwan VPN on it. Then you have complete control.
Re: What VPN to use instead of PIA? (Score:1)
*ba-dum TISS*
No, Amazon has complete control.
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Not at all.
Highly recommended: (Score:1)
I don't trust anyone but the Piratebay guys to get this right.
https://njal.la/ipredator/ [njal.la]
(Note the blog post [njal.la] about that former name.)
Nobody who hasn't worked at a literal spying organization has more experience and a higher personal interest VS financial greed ratio.
Understanding the legal system (Score:5, Insightful)
"To make a long story short, the former freenode head of staff secretly 'sold' the network to this person even if it was not hers to sell, and our lawyers have advised us that there is not much that we can do about it without some of us risking financial ruin."
So a rich guy convinced someone to sell him something that was never theirs to sell. And now the rich guy gets to keep the stolen goods not because he's on sound legal ground, but because the victims don't have the financial means to fight him in court.
A good lesson for how the law works in real life.
Re:Understanding the legal system (Score:5, Insightful)
"For example, if my neighbour has a mind to my cow, he has a lawyer to prove that he ought to have my cow from me. I must then hire another to defend my right, it being against all rules of law that any man should be allowed to speak for himself." -- J. Swift
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Small Claims Court.
Re: Understanding the legal system (Score:2)
Most countries allow self-representation in court for everything but high-stalkes felony cases. And that's a good thing.
You can end up in jail innocent (a lot more than that is already the case) if you don't know exactly what you're doing. Even if you are a laywer specilized in e.g. homicides you better *hire* one to represent you when they come to jail you for allegedly having killed tour wife. Being implicated emotionally makes you a bad decision maker. It gets worse the less knowledge you have.
There are
Re: Understanding the legal system (Score:1)
And that is the problem!
I suggest an alternative: If one side cannot afford a lawyer, then both sides are not allowed to use lawyers. And to make sure they don't, behind the scenes, both are locked up a
in a shielded room with the judgeruntil it's resolved. The one with the lawyer is not told in advance if the oter one has one, so he can't chest by prepping with a lawyer.
Also, laywer speak and typical legal terms and phrases are banned too.
Re: Understanding the legal system (Score:2)
What if we're talking about felonies, not about private law? "The other side" is by definition the district attorney, so they *do* know legalese. Being locked up with him and the judge in a room will do you 0 favors. (The jury system in the US was designed to approximate exactly what you propose, and see how well it works in practice...)
Laws are complex, and they are so, on many occasions, to protect *you*, the accused, until proven guilty. Locking yourself in with the judge and the other side (regardless o
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And unless the law is actually on your neighbors side and it really should be his cow, your neighbors case will be tossed and he will be ordered to pay your legal fees.
Which is what would happen in this case. This is simply a matter of new management coming in and existing people in the organization (in this case volunteers) being butt hurt about it because their little fiefdom is under threat. They have no formal authority or ownership in the organization. They have no case. They have not actually been ha
The return of the Enclosure Acts (Score:3)
Re: (Score:1, Insightful)
Lawyers can work pro-bono in large cases where there is substance (and big attorney fees on the horizon).
The fact they say "risking financial ruin" is not because they would have to pay their own lawyers, you can set limits on how much they are allowed to spend, but because they're at risk of having to pay the other party's lawyer fees.
Their lawyers basically told them they would lose in a legal suit and probably have to pay the other's attorney fees on top for bringing obnoxious lawsuits, which is basicall
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Lawyers can work pro-bono in large cases where there is substance (and big attorney fees on the horizon).
Where are the big attorney fees coming from? I don't imagine there's a lot of financial value in Freenode.
The fact they say "risking financial ruin" is not because they would have to pay their own lawyers, you can set limits on how much they are allowed to spend, but because they're at risk of having to pay the other party's lawyer fees.
Their lawyers basically told them they would lose in a legal suit and probably have to pay the other's attorney fees on top for bringing obnoxious lawsuits, which is basically an attorney's way of saying: stop being a whiney little twat, you don't have legal standing.
Or the richer party has the ability to drag out the case for years, constantly engaging in manoeuvres designed to occupy the other parties lawyers and draining the bank accounts of anyone willing to fight him. It's worked many times before and it will work many times again.
Really? (Score:2)
So let me see...
Freenode essentially ends with drama. This is new on the internet?
The number of implosions like this over the last 30 years regarding peering, IRC, WorldNIC, usenet, and many more are legendary (for us who have been here since the late 80s).
Heck, I remember one first generation ISP owner's wife dumping the guy for a woman and running off with their daughter... that was legendary.
How about all those peering arguments on usenet? Nothing like watching the death of a baby company killed by egoti
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Must be thinking of CDDB. [musicbrainz.org]
Sounds like typical IRC (Score:1)
Sounds like typical IRC...the in group and the out group fighting over what.
"Op me".
Linus Media Group (Score:2)
I wonder what Linus from Linus Tech Tips will say about this since PIA is a fairly large sponsor of their videos....
Re:Linus Media Group (Score:4, Insightful)
What they're saying at Libera (Score:2)
"In early 2021, that changed. New advertising was pushed onto the freenode website without warning. The head of staff at the time ultimately resigned rather than explain. In the time since, there have been changes to network operations for which we have received no explanation."
Oh my. Ads. Banners? Popups? Annoying audio? Unobtrusive text ads? What, exactly?
Anyway, they've forked the entire organization, and that's fine. Darwin will eventually reveal who's in the right.
So... why does P2P
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Oh my. Ads. Banners? Popups? Annoying audio?[...] What, exactly?
Do you know what IRC is?
Read the 'resignation' letters (Score:1)
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How is 'libre.chat' going to be 'libre' if what they're most concerned about is the ability/power to ban people?
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I get a headache just skimming. (Score:2)
But now they've parted ways, we'll see who survives.
IRC drama in 2021 (Score:2)
this is why... (Score:3)
Re:Err... what? (Score:4, Informative)
There are multiple links in the summary that would answer all of that for you. I know, because I had many of the same questions and clicked them.
Re: (Score:1, Troll)
If you don't want to read the story, there are a few mods over at FreeNode that don't like the new owner, because he has associated with conservatives and because he's rich.
They tried to railroad everyone involved in the sale out on the notion that they are morally superior and when that didn't work, they threw a hissy fit and exited out. As they admit, legally, everything is fine, the fact you don't like the cut of the new CEO's jib is legally irrelevant.
A tempest in a teapot, the headline should read: SOM
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I don't know why this is marked as Troll. It seems a fairly accurate description of the events that transpired.
I can only assume then you didn't bother reading anything about the situation if you think this is in any way a conservative vs liberal issue instead of actually bunch of volunteers for a non-profit suddenly realise they have been gifting their time to a commercial enterprise which never had any right to buy the network in the first place.
Thinking this is about politics is what makes the GP a troll. Agreeing with him is what makes you ignorant.
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Re:Wow (Score:4, Funny)
Is he Nigerian? Their royal family is known for its large number of exiled princes.
Re: Wow (Score:2)
Now, I won't speak to the veracity of his royal claims. But I will say that I met legit royal people in Africa. But these were royals operating in a (quasi-)republic. They weren't like British royals with constitutional powers. They were more like family chiefs well respected by the community. At one time, their families or dynasties had real authority, but that has slowly faded into something lesser.
Maybe Korea has similar princes running around.
Re: Wow (Score:1)
Wow. Triggered much?
Facts are facts, my friend.
We just live in a world where everybody is an insecure loser who demands triple-layered sugarcoating, so, assuming you're an "average person", your expectations are distorted. In that case, just translate it to p.c. speak yourself, and you'll happily swallow it, even if it says exactly the same thing.
(If I misunderstood you, forgive me, and please be clearer the next time.)
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I don't yet know what the actual facts are or what it will ultimately mean, but...
narcissistic Trumpian wannabe korean royalty bitcoins millionaire
Wow. butthurt much?
While that charade looked weird, he is actually the pretender to the defunct imperial throne of Korea [lamag.com].
Re: (Score:1, Troll)
I'm pretty sure you know nothing about the situation, but you do have reactionary feelings on the issue.
You are so used to protecting the billionaire elites, you just had to jump in and spin for them!
Re:Likely an ideological spin (Score:4, Insightful)
The whole network has been sold. It's not clear that the person who sold it even had a legal right to, but in any case they don't want to work for the new owners. They are volunteers, the new owners are a commercial outfit.
Re: Likely an ideological spin (Score:3, Informative)
The domain name was sold. (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
If it was an illegal sale, any lawyer would've seen right through the scheme used and got it back in a lawsuit, and law firms wouldn't even blink to ask for millions in attorneys fees on top of it.
And if you knew anything about how courtrooms actually work, you'd know that even with an airtight, bulletproof case, it's still DAMNED expensive to fight an opponent that can afford a vigorous, competent legal defense, and your own lawyers usually won't work on contingency (that means you'll have to pay them up
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Seems like something right up the EFFs alley. If the sale were illegal you would likely have lawyers lining up to make their name on an easy win high profile case.
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I'm pretty sure nothing was actually wrong, the staff simply didn't want to be associated with someone they saw as a Trump supporter.
Very few people will actually quit a job over ideology.
I for one can't stand Trump, and would never want to work for him. If he bought out the company I currently work for, I would immediately begin looking for new employment, but I wouldn't simply quit and walk away. Tempting as that idea might be.
Just to be perfectly clear, Trumpy the Clown is the one, and only, person I actually hate. I hope he rots in prison for the rest of his miserable life.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
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I've only ever quit one job over politics. I listened to the owner of a company talk about the liberals and how they were destroying the country. I found a new job and left. When he asked me why I told him. He called me one of those snowflakes.
Turns out I wasn't leaving over politics, I was leaving because the owner was a jackass. So I agree 100% with you.
Re:Likely an ideological spin (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm pretty sure nothing was actually wrong, the staff simply didn't want to be associated with someone they saw as a Trump supporter.
Their argument they have for leaving would be stronger if they simply said that was the case, instead of creating a bunch of slander around the issue.
One person wrote "narcissistic Trumpian wannabe korean royalty bitcoins millionaire", that doesn't discredit the position of everyone else who resigned or even that individual. If someone really pissed me off I'd probably call them names too.
You can read a fairly level headed sounding account of what went on if you don't want to go jumping through the links. But when people resign en mass it's rarely the case that "nothing was actually wrong".
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I'm pretty sure nothing was actually wrong, the staff simply didn't want to be associated with someone they saw as a Trump supporter.
Their argument they have for leaving would be stronger if they simply said that was the case, instead of creating a bunch of slander around the issue.
One person wrote "narcissistic Trumpian wannabe korean royalty bitcoins millionaire", that doesn't discredit the position of everyone else who resigned or even that individual. If someone really pissed me off I'd probably call them names too.
You can read a fairly level headed sounding account of what went on if you don't want to go jumping through the links. But when people resign en mass it's rarely the case that "nothing was actually wrong".
To your point every single resign notice points to a singular problem and politics aren't even mentioned.
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That just speaks to your own emotional maturity and credibility, which DO impact your position and that of this individual. That said I've always maintained that the message and not the messenger is what matters. Assessing the credibility of the speaker is a reasonable compromise to aid or hint in prioritizing how much time to spend considering a mess