Do You Own a Motorcycle Airbag if You Have to Pay Extra to Inflate It? (hackaday.com) 166
"Pardon me while I feed the meter on my critical safety device," quips a Hackaday article (shared by long-time Slashdot reader AmiMoJo):
If you ride a motorcycle, you may have noticed that the cost of airbag vests has dropped. In one case, something very different is going on here. As reported by Motherboard, you can pick up a KLIM Ai-1 for $400 but the airbag built into it will not function until unlocked with an additional purchase, and a big one at that. So do you really own the vest for $400...?
The Klim airbag vest has two components that make it work. The vest itself is from Klim and costs $400 and arrives along with the airbag unit. But if you want it to actually detect an accident and inflate, you need load up a smartphone app and activate a small black box made by a different company: In&Motion. That requires your choice of another $400 payment or you can subscribe at $12 a month or $120 a year.
If you fail to renew, the vest is essentially worthless.
Hackaday notes it raises the question of what it means to own a piece of technology.
"Do you own your cable modem or cell phone if you aren't allowed to open it up? Do you own a piece of software that wants to call home periodically and won't let you stop it?"
The Klim airbag vest has two components that make it work. The vest itself is from Klim and costs $400 and arrives along with the airbag unit. But if you want it to actually detect an accident and inflate, you need load up a smartphone app and activate a small black box made by a different company: In&Motion. That requires your choice of another $400 payment or you can subscribe at $12 a month or $120 a year.
If you fail to renew, the vest is essentially worthless.
Hackaday notes it raises the question of what it means to own a piece of technology.
"Do you own your cable modem or cell phone if you aren't allowed to open it up? Do you own a piece of software that wants to call home periodically and won't let you stop it?"
Well that makes the motorcycle airbag wars a lot e (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Well that makes the motorcycle airbag wars a lo (Score:5, Insightful)
It doesn't even need to be something as obvious as a credit card expiring. All the time I have bluetooth devices glitch out, disconnect, not detect, whatever. This sort of system is just asking for some sort of glitch to fail to activate it, or unexpectedly deactivate it in the middle of a drive (after you were already sure it activated). Having lifesaving tech built upon functionality so non-robust is just asking for trouble.
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This. Just yesterday I was at a COVID test centre watching a guy physically battling with a Bluetooth unlock for one of those ride sharing bicycles which he had already paid for. It got him to the test site and was still on the meter but the chain refused to unlock. The frustration was funny and sad at the same time culminating with the bicycle being thrown into the bushes and the guy calling an Uber to get home.
We can laugh at this during a minor inconvenience, but not so much if you're flying through the
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There's no requirement that the manufacturer implement their product in the most asinine manner a slash dot reader can contrive.
Absolutely. But at the same time with the insane number of ways these morons have shoehorned tech into products which don't need any, and don't benefit from any all in an attempt to ultimately rent-seek, combined with the countless examples of truly asinine implementations such products have been released to market they do not get the benefit of doubt.
If your industry is full of morons you get to be treated like a moron until proven otherwise, and the fact that a physical *product* is being sold here with a
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Me? I'm all for it.
I bet this can be hacked to permanently unlock it, that makes it a cheap vest. :-)
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The one that charges me extra to work won't get my money. Fuck them in the eye socket.
The fucking should be done with a piece of rebar wrapped in barbed wire.
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They already paid for the airbag, given that you can get motion sensors in dirt cheap phones, the airbag should have it's own motion sensor. Given that mot
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They already paid for the airbag, given that you can get motion sensors in dirt cheap phones, the airbag should have it's own motion sensor. Given that motion sensor likely only costs a dollar, charging $120 a year just to use one you bought separately and they didn't buy at all is a giant fucking insult.
Literally, they didn't buy the motion sensor and they want to charge you $120 a year to use yours, like what the fuck!!! And it's literally risky because it's less likely to work for reasons like phone batteries die from time to time and bluetooth has connectivity issues that you don't want to be checking constantly when you're riding a motorcycle.
Um, their detection & deployment system does not seem to depend on an external cellphone. They have the complete system - CPU, sensors and what-not - built into the the In&Motion device. And looking at their website, it seems to be quite sophisticated.
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Ok, I didn't see why an app is needed but it's just there to rip you off and potentially get you killed rather than do the motion detection.
So now your vest needs to have wifi - an extra expense in order to rip you off. Any which way they've added multiple extra serious failure points to a product designed to save your life.
I seriously hope no-one buys this, it's a grotesque level of money grabbing and only a fool would buy it.
Yay!! (Score:2)
The Klim airbag vest has two components that make it work. The vest itself is from Klim and costs $400 and arrives along with the airbag unit. But if you want it to actually detect an accident and inflate, you need load up a smartphone app and activate a small black box made by a different company: In&Motion. That requires your choice of another $400 payment or you can subscribe at $12 a month or $120 a year. If you fail to renew, the vest is essentially worthless.
Now everybody sound off!! ... Three 'Huzzahs' for 'innovative' business models!
Re:Yay!! (Score:5, Funny)
They missed an opportunity. Since it's on a smart phone, they could tie it to location, with the default coverage area being the original state from which the user subscribed. Additional states would be separate purchases, with the detection not triggering if the user crosses state lines without ponying up. For the sake of safety there could be an automatic billing agreement by which the user would be billed for coverage when they cross to another state.
The location data could also be used to know where the user lives. That way the CEO knows when they're out, making it easy to go to their home and kick their pets to death for reasons.
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Re: Yay!! (Score:2)
I like your thinking. I actually work for Klim and we'd like you to interview for an exciting new initiative. Jayson (his mother can't spell good) wants to offer 20% off to customers. To qualify they must allow him to play a prank in which he tells their children their parents died in an accident. We could use some help in getting this promoted.
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They missed an opportunity. Since it's on a smart phone, they could tie it to location, with the default coverage area being the original state from which the user subscribed. Additional states would be separate purchases, with the detection not triggering if the user crosses state lines without ponying up.
It'd be more profitable for them to follow the scooter rental model (Lime, Bird, Spin, etc) where you have to pay to unlock the device and then are charged per minute to use it.
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Better to have them pay for service in a home area, then pay a metered surcharge whenever they leave that area. Call it a "roaming" charge.
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Bankrupt (Score:5, Insightful)
The Klim airbag vest has two components that make it work. The vest itself is from Klim and costs $400 and arrives along with the airbag unit. But if you want it to actually detect an accident and inflate, you need load up a smartphone app and activate a small black box made by a different company: In&Motion. That requires your choice of another $400 payment or you can subscribe at $12 a month or $120 a year.
And what happens when the company goes bankrupt and you made the one-time $400 (lifetime?) payment?
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What happens when someone has an accident and sue the company because of this bullshit?
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And then vests will work. Success!
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Argh. I really need to always use preview. Why the hell doens't Slashot have an edit function?
And then nobody's vests will work. Success!
Entropy (Score:2)
Same reason it doesn't handle unicode, or support many useful HTML tags, or even markdown. After the ownership-swapping chaos, there's no one left who knows how it works.
Slashdot is a perfect example of bitrot.
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Slashdot is a perfect example of bitrot.
They should put it on a RAID-6 ZFS system.
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With the latest library developed by the Google intern as his summer project
.... to get cancelled (both) within the next year.
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They would stop functioning, obviously... unless the company releases an update before discontinuing support that allows owners to continue to keep the vest operational for the life of the product.
Next question?
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In the UK you should pay for this with a credit card, which gives you Section 75 protection. Basically the bank is liable the same as the retailer, so if it bricks due to bankruptcy they are on the hook for it.
Otherwise it falls to the retailer, so e.g. if you bought it from Amazon then they would have to make you whole again.
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What a complicated socialist system! Here in the land of the free, "caveat emptor" is the watchword! We believe in traditional western values like responsibility of the individual, which means the consumer. Consumer rights would just make the bail-outs more expensive anyway, so you don't want them.
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What happened to the individual responsibility of the corporation? MIA apparently. Even the most die-hard libertarian would agree that the legitimate roles of government include contract enforcement.
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the corporation is a legal person, but not an individual (the clue is in the name). truly an ingenuous device to enforce rationality!
yes, the government should enforce contracts; i am sure that the contract of this business takes the usual, rational, precaution of voiding all legal remedies and appointing an arbitrator. the government has no business inventing "rights" for the irrational poor, like the so-called "right to repair" which is communism.
here is a list of legitimate roles of government:
enforcing
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You can't just disclaim everything in a contract. Overriding all of that is the implied contract of a sale. Implied contracts are necessary so we don't end up spending $1000 on lawyers and taking a week to buy a pack of gum. Right to repair is a matter of freedom of association and support for ownership. The anti-repair efforts of corporations actually resemble the Communist principle of denying private ownership. You seem to like contracts, what about the contracts people might make with independent repair
"make you whole again" (Score:2)
...Otherwise it falls to the retailer, so e.g. if you bought it from Amazon then they would have to make you whole again.
After a serious motorcycle accident, making you "whole again" would be a medical challenge.
Re: Bankrupt (Score:2)
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The credit card company makes a profit off the sale, so they get to take on some of the liability.
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And what happens when the company goes bankrupt and you made the one-time $400 (lifetime?) payment?
Be realistic, nothing like that could ever happen. With such an innovative product I'm sure they'll be around for months.
No EULA? (Score:3)
You own it, you crack it.
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It honestly wouldn't matter if there was an EULA or not.
This is a safety device. No judge is ever going to rule that abiding by EULA terms is more important than people's lives.
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Thanks, Silicon Valley (Score:2, Insightful)
Let's thank Silicon Valley for coming up with the shitty subscription service model idea.
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Subscriptions long predate Silicon Valley.
In this case, the company charging the subscription is located in France.
Re:Thanks, Silicon Valley (Score:5, Interesting)
Subscription models are fine, so long as they are going towards products or services with actual, ongoing costs, rather than something discrete in nature. For instance, renting your house? A “subscription” by another name. Fixed rate utility services like phone or Internet? Subscriptions. In both cases, your payments cover the ongoing costs of either providing or maintaining the thing you’re enjoying the use of.
A vest that has a single-use feature? Should not be a subscription. It’s a discrete product with fixed costs that are known in advance. When we see subscription models being applied to those sorts of products, it frequently is done in an abusive manner, such as an “employer” who will help you immigrate to a country such as the US—a discrete act with a fixed cost—in exchange for “repayment” by working for them for an indeterminate amount of time—indentured servitude.
I’m okay with most apps that are in active development engaging in subscription pricing (though I prefer when they don’t, since I’d rather buy things once and be done), since there are costs to ongoing development. That said, if they’re going to do it, I strongly prefer a variation of the idea where they make the app available at a set amount, with an optional subscription purchase if you’d like ongoing updates and support without having to buy the whole thing again. Strikes a fair balance to me.
Ok, but how do you inflate it? (Score:2)
It must get tiring. I mean I almost want to pass out inflating a couple of balloons quickly, I cannot imagine trying to inflate one of those airbags during an accident.
hijack (Score:2)
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can you sell or transfer it? (Score:2)
having to pay a fee to keep something operating isn't the lithmus for ownership. The question if the deviceis transferrable would answer a lot more about what it means to own something.
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Presumably the crash detection is not via smartphone, that would be too slow and too unreliable. At least I hope so.
If that's the case then the smartphone must just be handling the subscription. In which case, given that you own it, can you just open it up and rig it to always be on without a subscription?
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Ignoring the pointless debate of trying to circumvent subscriptions. That's not really a mark of ownership. Instead if they refuse to give you a subscription for a second hand device, then I'd say their own policies makes it non-ownership or at least limited ownership.
The More You Think About It, The Worse It Gets (Score:2)
This is a so-called life-saving device that is designed to let a remote third party disable it at will. How you can you confirm that the device, that is inoperable when you purchase it, was ever successfully activated? The levels of "broken by design" here are staggering.
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Well, it'll be cracked for SURE now (Score:3)
Now that it's a situation that is getting some press, I *fully expect* this thing to be cracked in the next couple of weeks.
I mean, hell. Apple can't stop the iPhone from being cracked. A company that makes motorcycle vests has NO HOPE of locking this thing down.
I expect that next month we'll see a story about how it was cracked, and the vests' "black box" all have a default, hardwired, unchangeable password of KLIM123.
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It kind of depends whether hackers want to pay $400 to try to hack a thing or not. I sure am not willing to.
It is a grift, a scam (Score:2)
a con.
Call it what you want but IMHO, this is pure evil.
you don't pay extra to have your car airbags enabled, do you?
As a long time biker, I would never ever sign up for something like this. I hope that this company goes out of business very, very soon or at least gets sued into oblivion.
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you don't pay extra to have your car airbags enabled, do you?
I'm guessing that's only because airbags are a requirement for cars - obviously not for motor bikes.
If it weren't a requirement, I'm sure car manufacturers would jump at the chance to add it as an additional charge (like they do for On-Star type crash detection for initiating emergency response).
The rentier class ... (Score:2)
... expends too much energy thinking up ways to extract payments from people. Imagine what they might be able to accomplish if they had an interest in improving society?
How about low tech instead (Score:2)
That's stupid and unnecessary tech overkill. I have a friend who has an airbag vest with a ripcord that attaches to the bike. Get thrown from the bike, the ripcord gets pulled and the vest inflates. No smartphone or subscription needed. Obviously, he has to remember to manually detach the cord before getting off the bike ...
Re: How about low tech instead (Score:2)
How hard could it be to make the cord detach automatically when the engine stops under conditions of zero speed/acceleration?
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How hard could it be to make the cord detach automatically when the engine stops under conditions of zero speed/acceleration?
Don't know. The rip cord on his vest it in two parts: one is permanently attached to the vest, the other attaches to the bike and there a clip/buckle to attach the two parts together -- that way you just have clip on/off rather than fiddle with the attachment on the bike side.
own nothing model (Score:2)
I Don't See The Problem (Score:2)
Nothing I've read indicates that the smartphone is used for anything other than activating the inflation devi
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Scary indeed (Score:2)
Rent seeking (Score:2)
Wrong question (Score:2)
The question isn’t whether you own it - of course you do, I own all kinds of useless things - it’s why the fuck you’d buy it in the first place.
Competition (Score:5, Informative)
Meanwhile, Helite will sell you a vest for about $675 that doesn't have any subscription, and inflates with an off the shelf CO2 cartridge (some vests have to be sent back to the manufacturer to be recharged).
Easy answer and not a surprise (Score:3)
Simple (Score:2)
You own a vest with airbags in it, which can be used as a regular vest, you can also tear it down or even make your own electronics if you want to.
You can pay extra for the software.
exestentialism, mofos! (Score:2)
Crashing sounds like a real bad thing. 70mph down the freeway and lose control? It's gotta be devastating! It certainly can be when you tangle with another vehicle or strike an immovable object. But the speed itself is less of a threat.
I've done that twice in my 60 years on two wheels. Piece of cake. Not a scratch to show for it and not even much damage to my bikes.
It was scary. I slid feet first for a very long distance. There may have been a short blackout before I scrambled to get off the hiway and traff
Simple solution (Score:2)
Don't buy things that are broken by design.
( And make no mistake about it, this product is crippled intentionally. )
Go buy the competitors product instead. The problem will fix itself in short order.
Fucking pricks (Score:2)
Should illegal (Score:3)
It should be denied any labelling as a a safety device if itâ(TM)s safety features arenâ(TM)t enabled as part of basic purchase. Iâ(TM)d even go the extra mile and say this should be denied sale itâ(TM)s current business model.
We made enough noise about critical safety features of the 787 Max8 being and add-on, that this should be no different.
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It's just like leasing a car.
No it's not.
It's more like buying a car, then getting a pop-up the first time you put the key in asking if you'd like to make your monthly payment or if you'd simply like to pay a one-time surcharge instead.
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I can't wait until these scumbags get sued because of some payment or technical issue on their end, which results in mistakenly disabling a vest, allowing serious injury or death to occur.
But of course that will never ever happen.
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No, if that's what they need to make a profit, then they need to sell the suit for $820. Selling a suit with knowingly-defective airbags for $400 is evil, period, full-stop, end-of.
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If you buy a car that has airbags, they have to work all the time according to the law, and how you paid makes no difference. They have to work even if you stole the car.
Not to mention, no government would allow this kind of mercenary shit in any consumer-grade vehicle.
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Motorcycle airbags have been around for a while now. Basically you wear it, and if you crash it inflates to protect your head and upper body which is where the life threatening injuries tend to happen. They are a very good idea.
Most of them don't need a smartphone, they use sensors similar to cars to detect crashes. Sudden deceleration, rider becoming separated from the bike, that sort of thing.
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Most of them don't need a smartphone, they use sensors similar to cars to detect crashes. Sudden deceleration, rider becoming separated from the bike, that sort of thing.
I have a friend who's vest has a ripcord that attaches to the bike. Get thrown, the cord gets pulled and the vest inflates. Potential expensive mistake is not manually detaching it before getting off the bike.
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Potential expensive mistake is not manually detaching it before getting off the bike.
But hilarious to watch for bystanders.
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Those things take like 60 pounds of force to activate. Not much chance of doing it by accident.
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Unless you weigh over 60 pounds and stumble when the cord yanks at you you mean.
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I really hope they're not triggering the deployment of an airbag via a smartphone's bluetooth connection. That'll, of course, be the day my phone throttles down because the battery is on its way out.
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They were originally developed for motorsport and have proven to be useful in high speed accidents.
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You say it didn't help him, but he didn't get a broken neck or a concussion.
Re:..wait, WTF is *this*? (Score:4, Funny)
If you DO choose to shove the vest up their asses, be sure the subscription is paid up and don't forget to whack the collision detector repeatedly with a rubber mallet.
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1. 'Motorcycle airbag'? WTF? I've been riding motorcycles off and on for 35 years and this is the first I've heard of this.
Gold Wings have had them as an option for the last 15 years.
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p>Or they could just have you pay $800 up front, with no option at all to get it without the AB functionality or spread that cost over time.
I don't see a problem with what they're doing, one way or another.
There's no problem until the company goes belly up or is acquired by another company and then the new owner tells you that you have to pay them to continue using the airbag function because new company.
It's B.S.
Yes, you can simply choose not to buy it at all... until all companies adopt this model. Then what?
Imagine if car manufacturers started adopting this model. Want your car's airbags, ABS, collision avoidance, TPMS, or some other safety device to be active and functional each time you drive it? Pay a m
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Imagine if car manufacturers started adopting this model.
Car manufacturers are ABSOLUTELY adopting this model. Ignoring the obvious egregious culprits like Tesla, who pull features out of your car if the previous owner bought it but you did not https://www.autoblog.com/2020/03/23/tesla-removing-content-from-used-cars/ [autoblog.com], there's plenty of analogous "insert coin to continue" nonsense from mainstream car companies, eg https://www.businessinsider.com/bmw-subscription-model-for-features-2020-7 [businessinsider.com]
This is one reason why I will absolutely not buy a vehicle that has a netwo
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Shit becomes useless because someone goes out of business ie stops supporting it all the time.
That shouldn't happen to devices that are designed to save lives, IMO.
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Klim airbag with a lifetime subscription costs about the same as competitor airbags that don't require a subscription.
That means a lifetime of having the positive validation scheme keep working. What if the validation system glitches in a metal-lined tunnel, or in the rain, or in unusual cold?
For peace of mind, get said competitor airbag that doesn't require a subscription.
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The people who do NOT update their car with the latest styles and features are quite a gulf away from the above class; they either can't afford to buy new cars (the majority), or don't want new cars (the minority, like me). It's due to this other, large