Germany Aims To Get Self-Driving Cars On the Roads In 2022 (dw.com) 73
German lawmakers greenlit a bill that would allow for some autonomous vehicles to hit public roads as early as next year. Deutsche Welle reports: The bill, passed by Bundestag lawmakers in a late-night session on Thursday, changes traffic regulations to allow for autonomous vehicles to be put into regular use across Germany. The bill specifically concerns vehicles with fully autonomous systems that fall under the "Level 4" classification -- where a computer is in complete control of the car and no human driver is needed to control or monitor it. Once approved, it would be the world's first legal framework for integrating autonomous vehicles in regular traffic. According to the Transportation Ministry, the bill was written to be as flexible as possible, with the new regulations not requiring a human driver to be on standby.
Starting in 2022, the German government says the bill would allow for driverless shuttle busses to be put into use, as well as autonomous public transportation busses that would drive on set routes. Autonomous vehicles would also be permitted to transport goods, and "dual-mode vehicles" could be used for automated valet parking. Self-driving cars for the general public would also be permitted in regular traffic, although experts estimate it will take years before the vehicles become established in the market, public broadcaster Deutschlandfunk reported.
Starting in 2022, the German government says the bill would allow for driverless shuttle busses to be put into use, as well as autonomous public transportation busses that would drive on set routes. Autonomous vehicles would also be permitted to transport goods, and "dual-mode vehicles" could be used for automated valet parking. Self-driving cars for the general public would also be permitted in regular traffic, although experts estimate it will take years before the vehicles become established in the market, public broadcaster Deutschlandfunk reported.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
You don't have to spend decades developing
We have already done that.
making sure that it works properly and doesn't kill people.
Human drivers kill 3000 people per day.
Self-driving cars don't have to be perfect. They just have to be better than the average human. That isn't a high bar.
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Self-driving cars don't have to be perfect. They just have to be better than the average human. That isn't a high bar.
Yes it is a high bar.
Getting autonomous solutions to be better than any single human, or even a small group of humans, isn't going to be the hard part.
Ensuring the massive amount of common sensors and autonomous technology remains secure to avoid terrorist-level mayhem, will be a much higher "bar" to overcome.
Want to throw a multi-trillion dollar autonomous car industry into the shitter overnight? Suffer a considerable cyberattack or sizable vulnerability that kills a few thousand people at once.
3,000 indi
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This is doable. If companies put their mind to it, they can make stuff extremely hack resistant. A few examples:
1: Blu-Ray. Still uncracked, after many years.
Huh? Not only has Blu-Ray copy protection been broken long ago, but they seem to be keeping up with the technology quite nicely.
http://www.digital-digest.com/... [digital-digest.com]
2: Satellite. Encrypted, no cracks.
Satellite was hacked and abused for decades. And quite honestly, no hacker is running around town trying to break into Redbox machines when they want to watch a movie. Hell of a lot easier to find compromised account info online than it is to crack an encrypted satellite stream. Perhaps they did finally secure this...just in time to make it b
Hacked. (Score:2)
companies {...} they can make stuff extremely hack resistant. A few examples:
Please put some indicator like a snark when you're sarcastically joking. It almost looks like you're serious with this claim.
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Don't worry! Self-driving cars will not have killed you yesterday either.
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Human drivers who aren't me are killing 3000 people who also aren't me. So up to today, my chance of road death is precisely zero.
Oh my God you must be immortal !
Since you haven't died...
yet...
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So up to today, my chance of road death is precisely zero.
Uh, that's not how probability works. Or grammar, for that matter.
For things in the past, you don't have a chance, you have an already established outcome. "up to today" makes no sense here. What's interesting from a probability perspective is tomorrow. And tomorrow your chance isn't zero. Where I live right now, your chance is roughly 1:15 mio. That's close to zero, but not zero. And it's per day, so you roll those dice daily. I'm sure you wouldn't mind better odds, even if these ones are already reasonabl
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Where I live right now, your chance is roughly 1:15 mio. That's close to zero, but not zero. And it's per day, so you roll those dice daily. I'm sure you wouldn't mind better odds, even if these ones are already reasonably low.
Only if road deaths were purely random. Which they aren't. Hence why using random odds makes no sense as an argument.
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Randomness can be a reasonably good approximation of complex system behaviour.
Specifically, when the outcome does not depend primarily on your skills or actions, but on many different factors. Many people who die on the road are not the drivers who caused the accidents.
Some further considerations such as how often you use the roads at all, and in which vehicle (bike, motorbike, old car with low or new car with high safety features, etc.) all modify your chances.
But they're just that: Modifiers. None of them
You do not understand... (Score:1, Insightful)
This is not America, where everything is allowed until someboy dies and then it is maybe regulated after decades of fights and lobbying. ;)
This is Germany, where everything is considered about equal to verboten, unless there is official law and regulation to blindly obey. ;)
Source: Being a German.
Re: You do not understand... (Score:2)
in Germany, everything is denied unless it's explicitly allowed,
in Russia, everything is denied even if it's explicitly allowed,
and in Italy, everything is allowed especially if it's explicitly denied."
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They've got to rush it out the door so that further laws can be made requiring self-driving cars. You know, for our "safety". The algorithm will tell us where and when we are allowed to drive.
And they will self-drive... (Score:5, Funny)
into Holland, France, and Russia. Extended range versions will make it into North Africa.
Re: And they will self-drive... (Score:2)
I hope the image recognition hardware and breaks work well enough to come to a halt after seeing "Welcome to Luxemburg!" but before "Leaving Luxemburg. Goodbye!".
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Extended range versions will make it into North Africa.
And there they shall likely remain.
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>Extended range versions will make it into North Africa.
well, this *was* the country that built the "schwimmwagen" . . .
hawk
pffft, goals (Score:1)
I aim to bring about world peace, cure cancer, and invent practical flying cars within 5 years. Elect me!
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And then....I want to go to France.
Getting them on the road is easy (Score:3)
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Getting them to stay on the road is more challenging.
(Auto Nome') "Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads."
Re:Getting them on the road is easy (Score:5, Funny)
Getting them to stay on the road is more challenging.
I have a thought ... since they are talking about public transportation with fixed routes, we could mechanically fit the vehicles to metal tracks!
Why? (Score:1, Insightful)
Nobody here wants them.
We can drive well and pride ourselves in it.
Why would anyone skilled give up control and freedom?
Especially to software, designed by people from a culture, where, from our perspective, no offense, nobody can drive?
(Note that we are required to take many lessons, both theoretical and practical, at four figures costs, to even be allowed to take the test. And you can easily fail, which mift cost you the same again, in lessons and money. Our streets and cars are mostly very well maintaine
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Re: Why? (Score:3)
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I think that's mostly an America problem. People drive fine where i am.
Where are you? I lived and driven in plenty of countries, and it's the same issue everywhere. Bell curves are a thing.
Re: Why? (Score:4, Informative)
I think that's mostly an America problem. People drive fine where i am.
Where are you? I lived and driven in plenty of countries, and it's the same issue everywhere. Bell curves are a thing.
It's quite a bit safer in Norway [wikipedia.org], to give one example I know well. Fewer idiots on the road, and less speeding. Germany, which is the subject of the article, also has a much lower death rate. (note: I've driven a lot in Norway and the US. Never in Germany.)
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It would be even safer if there were reasonable, cost efficient, easy alternatives for people like...
-the elderly
-drunken/high people
-people prone to having seizures
-people driving without sufficient sleep
-people with a variety of handicaps
-people with suspended licenses (they exist EVERYWHERE)
but self-driving cars (once implemented) may be the best option for those listed above
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It would be even safer if there were reasonable, cost efficient, easy alternatives for people like...
-the elderly
-drunken/high people
-people prone to having seizures
-people driving without sufficient sleep
-people with a variety of handicaps
-people with suspended licenses (they exist EVERYWHERE)
but self-driving cars (once implemented) may be the best option for those listed above
You see in most European countries there are reasonably priced alternatives to all of these. It's called public transport. I'd like to address a few specific cases.
if you've the money to go out and get pissed, you should have the money for a train, bus or taxi fare home (or just drink within walking distance). Alternatively, local accommodation can usually be found pretty cheap.
As an insomniac, I have the same options as above as well as calling my boss and saying "I'm feeling poorly today and can't come in
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"You see in most European countries..."
-They key word in that sentence is MOST. It's not ALL. And people live outside of Europe. And public transport only works during specific hours most places.
"or just drink within walking distance"
-Not every household is walking distance to where people want to be.
"As an insomniac, I have the same options as above as well as calling my boss and saying..."
-What if you need to pick your child up from daycare
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Speeding if of itself, is not dangerous.
You just have to know the time and place for it.
Some stretches of road, given he level of traffic are perfectly safe to exceed the posted speeds.
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It's quite a bit safer in Norway
Deaths are not the same as bad driving. I see useless drivers multiple times every day, I've never seen anyone die in crash first hand.
We don't have metrics for sticking to the slow lane, and failing to indicate, but in my experience these problems are everywhere.
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There is competent, and there is safe. India... was not safe, and I never tried to drive there, even if they themselves manage. I've been in other cities where the drivers were so dangerously aggressive that I elected not to drive, and fortunately had other options.
Already exists (Score:3)
the tremendous opportunity it offer for long trips where I can be doing other tings. Like reading, or sightseeing, or researching the next destination... It's like a whole mini vacation on the way to your vacation. Or heck, you can work on the way. {...} Can't do any of those things realistically now,
It might come as a shock to you, but in several part of Europe (where TFA's Germany is situated) this thing already exist and is called a train.
(And Germany's train network is actually a good one).
You can realistically read, look at sights, research, and generally enjoy your travel or do work.
You can even sleep on some, they are called night trains.
You're not introducing any new feature with self-driving (at least in Europe).
What you're introducing is the possibilities to enjoy this feature while alone. Or
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In theory the time spent in-air by the plane is shorter. But in practice,
...they've been fucking up the trains badly for decades. In Germany, specifically, after they privatized the trains company, things went downhill badly.
I utterly LOVED to travel by train. I took the ICE trains almost weekly for a few years, mostly on business, but also privately. Loved it, but I already saw it declining - over the years, delays became more and more common. Then entire trains simply didn't run. Then it went entirely to shit.
It's really, really sad. Trains would, in theory, be a great alterna
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It makes more sense to fix the existing train network than to build a whole new network of AV infrastructure, especially since it serves more segments of society.
What infrastructure? (Score:1)
It makes more sense to fix the existing train network than to build a whole new network of AV infrastructure
No infrastructure beyond existing roads is required, as Tesla has shown. Self-driving cars present an excellent third alternative that is a bit like trains, but more private and vastly more flexible in terms of timing and destinations. It will never replace trains but it's a fantastic way to travel, as most of America knows being very fond of road trips generally.
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The modernized them, too. Already on the list for a future holiday.
However, flying is usually both cheaper and faster. Night train is very convenient, however. You arrive rested near the city centre in the morning with the whole day ahead of you. It's really cool. I took the night train to Paris many years ago and it was a great decision.
Self-driving car good third options (Score:1)
I have used the train system in Germany before, and across other parts of Europe - it's really nice but it only gets you so far, then you have to figure out transport when you arrive (as you mentioned).
I would MUCH rather have my car with me when I arrive. As you mentioned, a self-driving car is basically a private train that can go anywhere roads take you!
Another benefit I don't think you brought up is timing, I can take the car any time I choose - at night, at any time during the hour. Trains exist on f
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And do these trains have the same benefits of a private car?
- Door to Door delivery
- Privacy
- Will be there for you on YOUR schedule, whenever you want to use it?
- Let you play whatever music you want on it as loud as you want it while on the road?
- Be a place you can store things all the time that you commonly use on trips out of the house (long or short)
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The trouble is...at some point, VERY likely, when self driving cars are prevalent on the public roads, laws will be passed forbidding human controlled vehicles on those public thoroughfares.
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VERY likely, when self driving cars are prevalent on the public roads, laws will be passed forbidding human controlled vehicles on those public thoroughfares.
I think it would be a very long time before the public would accept that. Several decades at least, even if level 4 driving is working well in the next few years.
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Nobody here wants them.
We can drive well and pride ourselves in it.
Why would anyone skilled give up control and freedom?
Especially to software, designed by people from a culture, where, from our perspective, no offense, nobody can drive?
Two words: "Soccer mom"
Also: "Daily commuter"
ie. 99% of the people on the road would love to just push a button and do something else.
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Nobody here wants them.
I do.
And I'm German.
So there's your "nobody" already proven wrong. The problem with the all-quantors: One counter-example is enough to invalidate them. ;-)
I'm sure most people who commute every day would love to drive at least the boring part of the way on autopilot, so you can read the morning newspaper or check your mail or whatever. I know I would want to. And given that there's usually a traffic jam on the highway, it should be easy and safe for an autopilot to navigate it. Heck, ACC and lane assist are
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German here. I would want one and quite a people I know would want one, too. It's not the 1970s anymore. Why would you want to sit with your eyes glued to the road and your hand glued to the wheel, if you can do something else during that time?
For many Germans the car is a status symbol, essentially a way to show off that they have the bigger dick. A bit like guns for Americans and
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"Nobody here wants them."
Nobody want them? Not even...
the elderly, who don't feel comfortable driving anymore but need to go to the doctor, grocery store, visit friends?
the blind?
people with seizures who can't drive?
people with children who need them transported at times they are busy with work or moving their other children around?
Uber/Lyft/UPS/FedEx/DHL who could save millions of $$$
Still a problem with technology (Score:2)
pop quiz hotshot you have an bomb on an bus (Score:2)
pop quiz hotshot you have an bomb on an bus what do you do?
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pop quiz hotshot you have a bomb on an bus what do you do?
Sandra Bullock.
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You think remote hacking cars is scary? Boy do I have news for you. Google C-ITS.
Hacking just one car, that's for the script kiddies. Holding one car hostage - you'd have to be lucky to find someone who can pay you a ransom worth the effort - and who can do it while driving. But holding the traffic of an entire city ransom...
Going to keep Asking... (Score:4, Insightful)
What are the conditions for fully autonomous vehicles? What is the testing regime and who conducts it? Does the relevant regulating agency submit these vehicles to things like hill starts? Emergency stops? Navigating complex intersections? Maybe one of these vehicles can perform a K-Turn in a narrow road... but does it know that it is not allowed to do that in a one-way system? What if a vehicle gets to a destination and there is a parking attendant directing traffic to a field? Can it cope with that?
It's all well and good to say that an autonomous vehicle can follow a lane, read traffic signals and navigate to a destination, but what about everything else?
I'm not suggesting foul play, but it would be nice if there were more transparency with respect to the licensing of autonomous vehicles on our roads. A lot more transparency.
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You can google that all your self.
We have completely autonomous cars on German roads since 20 years - oops. However they were so far "test vehicles", now they get "legalized".
Bottom line there is nothing new here.
(Why you think a car would attempt a K-turn (I suppose you meant a U-turn?) in a one way road, is beyond me).
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I am really sorry if that part of my comment wasn't clear... What I was trying to ask was: can we be sure that an autonomous vehicle won't try to turn around and/or drive the wrong way down a one-way road. I was just trying to give examples of the sort of basic confidence tests we should be asking for before we agree to let widespread use of autonomous vehicles on the roads. Apart from anything
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What I was trying to ask was: can we be sure that an autonomous vehicle won't try to turn around and/or drive the wrong way down a one-way road.
Yes you can, as one way roads have a clear sign at the beginning of the road for entering, and a clear sign at the end: not to enter.
Apart from anything else, it seems that there isn't much international coordination on testing standards for this sort of thing.
There is. It is just not something typical new magazines write about. The Cars in Germany e.g. have sever
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> Where is the requirement for autonomous vehicles to pass a driving exam? If you or I wanted to drive a motor vehicle on the public roads in Germany [or anywhere else] we'd have to be of sufficient legal age, have acceptable vision, no medical conditions, etc.
Some states have been proactive about this, such as California. See https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/... [ca.gov] . The existence is of the discussion is public, although I suspect a great deal of it is occurring behind closed doors in rooms provided by lobbyi
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Where is the requirement for autonomous vehicles to pass a driving exam?
Coming. Germany is a country where you follow the regulations before you get a license to operate (unless, say the USA where the concept is that you can do whatever you want, but if it harms someone, you're in court for millions in damages).
I've actually done some work in this area, we published a few whitepapers last year. Two members of the research team were law experts (a professor and a PhD student) and we did consider legal aspects, including regulation, liabilities, etc. We're based in Austria, not G
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Exams are not a great way to test drivers, they are just the most viable option for humans.
An exam won't be able to cover all the conditions and events you will face on the road. With a self driving car you can have the manufacturer demonstrate that it works at night and in the rain, and have it do millions of varied kilometres to build up confidence in its ability to handle unusual events.
Ideally human drivers would be required to demonstrate their ability in the same way, but we have to settle for an exam
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I think we're broadly in agreement on the basic principl
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"Maybe one of these vehicles can perform a K-Turn in a narrow road... but does it know that it is not allowed to do that in a one-way system?"
Do you really believe that some company would put out an autonomous vehicle, but neglect to tell it all the rules of the road? The rules that can assuredly be held in the smallest thumb drive available today?
Especially a rule regarding an operation on a one-way road? Especially especially "deciding" to drive the wrong way down a one-way road?
If so, then I'll presume y
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