The Boring Company Tests Its 'Teslas In Tunnels' System In Las Vegas (theverge.com) 119
Rei_is_a_dumbass shares a report from The Verge: Elon Musk's Boring Company started shuttling passengers through the twin tunnels it built underneath the Las Vegas Convention Center (LVCC) this week, as part of a test to get the system ready for its full debut in June. Videos, images, and accounts shared around the internet by the people who showed up for the test offer the most coherent glimpse yet at Musk's solution for traversing the LVCC campus. It is quite literally just Teslas being driven through two 0.8-mile tunnels -- a far cry from the autonomous sled-and-shuttle ideas that Musk once proposed for The Boring Company.
The Boring Company says the Loop will ultimately turn a 45-minute walk into a two-minute ride, though it's not down to that level of efficiency yet (hence the test). In one video, one of the test riders said they had to wait about three to five minutes for a few of the rides, though even with a top speed of around 40 miles per hour, trips between stations appear to have taken about a minute to a minute-and-a-half. One of the things increasing that total travel time was the underground station. There were times when test riders pulled into the station only to run into some congestion. The drivers have to maneuver around other parked Teslas, people getting in and out, and cars queueing up to reenter the tunnels. It's a tight fit. There was also just some general confusion as people got used to how the system worked.
The Boring Company says the Loop will ultimately turn a 45-minute walk into a two-minute ride, though it's not down to that level of efficiency yet (hence the test). In one video, one of the test riders said they had to wait about three to five minutes for a few of the rides, though even with a top speed of around 40 miles per hour, trips between stations appear to have taken about a minute to a minute-and-a-half. One of the things increasing that total travel time was the underground station. There were times when test riders pulled into the station only to run into some congestion. The drivers have to maneuver around other parked Teslas, people getting in and out, and cars queueing up to reenter the tunnels. It's a tight fit. There was also just some general confusion as people got used to how the system worked.
Autobahn Musk style. (Score:2)
Underground racetrack and with the Indy races coming up too, people can practice.
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Things are rarely the vision envisioned in the first go-around (no pun intended).
Except [youtube.com] for all the people [youtube.com] that pointed [youtube.com] out every [youtube.com] single [youtube.com] flaw [youtube.com].
Re:Autobahn Musk style. (Score:4, Insightful)
Lets paralyze progress, and throw away every attempt when things don't go 100% right.
People should point out the flaws, and the company should work on evaluating and addressing the flaws. But I am sick of all the Stupid people seeing something tried out for the first time and it wasn't flawless, and just jumping onto a conclusion that the entire endeavor is a failure, needs to be scrapped and we go back to the old ways forever.
The first Airplane flight was 120 feet (37 meters) at around 7 miles per hour. A human can run that faster, Automobiles at the time are far superior. If this was with the people with the 2021 mindset. They will go, well look at that an absolute failure, I can do better than that, airplanes will never be made again.
Re: Autobahn Musk style. (Score:2)
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Battery fire in a tunnel, mmmm.
Re:Autobahn Musk style. (Score:5, Insightful)
Or he could just use big cars that hold a lot of people. They can go along a set route and drop people off at their destinations around the city. There wouldn't be any loading or unloading of cars, they would be permanently in the tunnels. And you could link them together and only one of the cars would need to have an engine. Or maybe you could use magnets to get rid of friction and shuttle them along at ultra high speeds. It's such a crazy good idea, I wonder why no one has thought of it before. Good thing Boring will evolve this technology out of the simple idea to shuttle cars around tunnels under Vegas.
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The Boring Company is not after the traditional underground market, with either "large/heavy" or "light trains".
While the traditional "heavy" underground trains offer great capacity and great speed, and the "light trains" offer good tunnel/trench/surface/elevated rail possibility for smaller capacities - but both at large distances between stations - the Boring Company basically wants to offer taxi-like services but underground.
Just like you could build electric vehicles that hold a lot of people and are ch
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This just needed to be a frequent shuttle service through the tunnels, in regular (2 minute interval) short metro trains.
Why? Because everyone at the first station is going to get off at a later stop, so you can scale up the capacity of each transport vehicle to cope with the limitation of vehicle throughput. Additionally the wide, tall doors on metro services allow rapid loading and unloading, far faster than cars.
These tunnels are narrow (which is why they can be dug a little big quicker), so I doubt that
Re: Autobahn Musk style. (Score:3)
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Just like a flying car, but underground.
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The long term vision is to make roads you can drive on underground. For that, development needs to take place so the cars donâ(TM)t crash in a unique setting like a tunnel. One day you will be able to hop through traffic by going into a tunnel.
Funny, there has been such a tunnel, not far from me, for about the last 50 years. The Brynglas Tunnel [wikipedia.org]. That was also to enable people to "hop through traffic". The trouble is they also have traffic; in fact they are congested just like the roads are that they by-passed and every other road around here.
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Or he could just use big cars that hold a lot of people. They can go along a set route and drop people off at their destinations around the city. There wouldn't be any loading or unloading of cars, they would be permanently in the tunnels. And you could link them together and only one of the cars would need to have an engine. Or maybe you could use magnets to get rid of friction and shuttle them along at ultra high speeds. It's such a crazy good idea, I wonder why no one has thought of it before. Good thing Boring will evolve this technology out of the simple idea to shuttle cars around tunnels under Vegas.
Its called public transportation. In some cities it works, because the city taxed the parking garages to make downtown parking very very expensive. Cheap parking was provided at train and terminals so that the polution /air and noise / was minimized
For a tube/tunnel, being sealed, there is a tremendous amount of air in front of the vehicle that must be pushed aside, that pushing is like running into a body of water from the shore. -- slow is OK, high speed needs energy. A 1 mile tube (1.6km) would not be
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It's just an extremely ordinary tunnel, dug by an ordinary boring machine, using the very old idea of running small cars (or pods as they are often known) along it on tyres instead of rails. It's reproducing century old technology.
Deeply unimpressive.
Re: Autobahn Musk style. (Score:2)
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No automated driving? (Score:5, Insightful)
This is possibly one of the most controlled environments possible for automated driving, with ample opportunity to put lots of stationary assistance beacons, sensors etc all the way along the route, controlled access for vehicles so all vehicles can do vehicle-vehicle communications, and they still went with human drivers? Why?! This is a perfect opportunity to to show off fully automated driving and they arent doing it?!
Re:No automated driving? (Score:5, Informative)
Have mod points but, I'll bite...
This *is* automated driving. All past demos have been. (Look 'em up - there's lots of videos) The human "driver" is there for liability and show. The general public & law isn't ready for unsupervised full self driving. There's no way a human driver could do that precision all day long.
Beacons? Have you seen how Tesla's work? There are no beacons or extra sensors on public roads. It's using pure vision. Note that there are road lines in the the tunnel. Those are for the machine, not the human.
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Re:No automated driving? (Score:5, Insightful)
The lady on the video linked in the summary at about 11 minutes and 10 seconds as they pull away reacts with surprise that the driver is operating the vehicle, and asks if it will be self driving in the future, the driver responds "no" and that he will be operating the vehicle at all times.
Its not self driving. The driver is there to drive, not for liability reasons. You can see in the video the other drivers also driving the vehicle.
And I made specific comment about beacons etc because this is literally the perfect controlled environment for self driving - they dont need to rely on only the Tesla determining its surroundings, its surroundings can literally tell the car exactly where the walls are, where the other cars are, where the next bend is etc. Cars can tell each other when they are milling around in those pick up and drop off places so theres communication and collaboration between vehicles. This is about the easiest environment to get full self driving perfected.
But thats not happening. They aren't even using Teslas self driving capability it seems. Why not?
Re:No automated driving? (Score:5, Insightful)
That sounds like far more work than just putting some track down and steel wheels on the Tesla.
Re:No automated driving? (Score:5, Funny)
Indeed, and maybe redesign the Tesla a little, because with a few stops it seems to me many people would be sharing the same source and destination stations, so maybe a more extended design would work. Also those low doors won't do, they slow down vehicular access, so maybe you would want a wider, taller door you can just walk in and out of (also disabled access), and maybe an aisle down the centre so you don't need so many doors on the vehicle. Then maybe to solve congestion issues you could connect a few of these vehicles together, even if they now have to stop at every station on route, because the capacity improvement makes it worthwhile, and the congestion time-saving makes up for those extra stops.
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If only I had mod points.
All this work for so little gain.
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And the current design is a giant fuck you to anyone in a wheelchair. How did this even pass ADA?
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Re:No automated driving? (Score:4, Informative)
Because Tesla's self driving is massively over-hyped and under-delivering, and won't be out of beta for many many years.
For example, imagine if one of these cars got some dirt over one of the cameras. It has no self-cleaning beyond the windscreen wipers that only cover the front facing cameras. Nothing for the front facing radar either, which will eventually get covered in smootz. It would suddenly be unable to operate, potentially stuck in a tunnel with other cars approaching from behind at 40 MPH. The tunnel is very small and there is barely room to open the doors, let alone for someone in a wheelchair to get their equipment out and make an escape.
Re:No automated driving? (Score:5, Informative)
You realise that there are plenty of other fully automated self driving pod transportation systems around the world, right? For example, check out Heathrow Airports pod transportation system - works a treat, self driving, no rails, similar limited environment, should have been used here.
Re:No automated driving? (Score:4, Informative)
London Docklands Light Railway - Driverless, since the 90s. Paris Metro - Several Driverless Lines. Other examples exist as well.
Driverless mass transmit (medium speed) is a solved problem - on rails.
This is a low-capacity, driver-based, non-rail system. The worst of all worlds - the driver cost overhead is high per passenger, the risk is high.
Also, I can foresee drivers driving the same tunnels day-in-day-out getting fatigued and making mistakes. Heaven forbid a battery fire down there. Let's hope that the vehicles have some form of lane-keeping, distance-keeping assistance in operation.
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"I don't come to your job and slap the cocks out of your mouth." -lots of comedians
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Kink shaming is never acceptable.
Re:No automated driving? (Score:5, Informative)
Have mod points but, I'll bite...
This *is* automated driving. All past demos have been. (Look 'em up - there's lots of videos) The human "driver" is there for liability and show. The general public & law isn't ready for unsupervised full self driving. There's no way a human driver could do that precision all day long.
Beacons? Have you seen how Tesla's work? There are no beacons or extra sensors on public roads. It's using pure vision. Note that there are road lines in the the tunnel. Those are for the machine, not the human.
The human driver is there because Tesla's are legally blind. Just look at the HUD display [youtu.be]. Vehicles literally meters away from the Telsa warp in and out of existence. And that isn't me hunting around for a bad example, that is literally the first shot of the HUD + road I found on Youtube.
Would you trust a driver with that poor an view of their surroundings?
Computer Vision is simply not reliable enough to drive with, hence, Telsa's will need a human driver from now until they add LIDAR or someone has a breakthrough in Computer Vision.
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Tesla is removing front facing radar from its cars and is going to rely entirely on cameras.
Front facing radar is used for collision avoidance, which is mandatory in many jurisdictions, and for traffic-aware cruise control.
This is going to be interesting, in a horrific car-crash kind of way.
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Not even in that controlled environment... (Score:2)
Nice High Speed Vacuum Line (Score:2)
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Yep, it's pretty boring. In other news, cities around the world have subways with actual trains.
Or if you want a fancier version of the moving walkway [wikipedia.org] that people have talked about forever.
I'm all for doing fun stuff in tunnels but I don't understand how this idea scales to anything interesting.
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TBH I think installing a moving walkway (slow and faster lanes should be possible) in these tunnels will be the best way to salvage this project. I give it 5 to 10 years.
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Real progress is often not interesting.
Running an old mainframe, swapping tapes, constant monitoring and code tweaking, made old school system administration an interesting job, Today the System Administer will need to maintain hundreds of servers for each person, and it is mostly just paperwork to let people know when the patches are going to be put in.
As the new computers are better than the old mainframes, it has gotten far more dull to work on a server.
Re:Nice High Speed Vacuum Line (Score:5, Insightful)
I always got an impression that all Musk's transport visions are designed for a very specific target customer: Musk himself. One of the most important criteria is that he must not be required to share an enclosed space with the lower classes. He won't want to ride a train, because trains are full of poor people, and poor people might be dangerous criminals. A personal isolated pod feels much safer.
Re:Nice High Speed Vacuum Line (Score:4, Interesting)
They're all designed to sell more Teslas. Most of Musk's wealth s bound up in Tesla, so it's vitally important that everybody buys one.
The hype loop was designed to sabotage the Californian high speed rail project. Why have trains when you can have pods whizzing around at 700mph? Good point: cancel the train and everybody buy a Tesla until the Hype Loop has been built (which will be never).
The original loop concept was also designed to sell more Teslas. Other kinds of cars would not have been allowed in it.
The LV Loop has achieved its purpose in selling Teslas. They're going to need something like a hundred when you factor in the 62 needed plus replacements for when they're being charged/cleaned/serviced.
The only moronic mass transport proposal from Musk that I can't figure out is the point to point Starship idea. I can't find an angle with that one where he sells more Teslas.
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> poor people might be dangerous criminals
Or have a communicable virus?
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Oh no! Quick, you better go put on your hazmat suit and hide under the bed!
Not everyone is a neurotic wetwipe still pissing their panties over covid.
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Covid-19 is on its way out, but what about Covid-20, Covid-21, etc.?
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A bit late for Covid-20 given its 2021 already wouldn't you think? But anyway, you go away and worry about them if it makes you happy, some of us will just get on with life.
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Didn't realize that was the naming scheme - seems rather inflexible.
I won't go away and worry, but I will avoid crowds and public transport, and so will many others— I don't think the general public is as over this as you think, so I think the Boring Co. has a promising future.
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WHo cares if people like you are over it or not. I have nothing but contempt for neurotics like yourself. God help us if something serious happened such as a war, not a virus with a 99.5% survival rate.
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I always got an impression that all Musk's transport visions are designed for a very specific target customer: Musk himself.
Kind of. My thought is that all of his visions, transportation or otherwise, are designed for a very specific environment: Mars. Trains are cool for earth, but you don't have as many people to move on Mars and you don't have as much gear to build the infrastructure. He wants to be able to efficiently make small tunnels for life on Mars. He wants to make Rockets to go to/from Mars. He wants to make electric vehicles for getting around Mars. He wants to make solar panels to collect energy on Mars. He wants to
A personal pod IS safer (Score:3)
Not to mention much more comforatable and comfort is worth paying for.
Much love for mass transit but it's not the poverty of other passengers, it's what they do and often smell like that's problematic. Being crammed like cattle into a subway or bus with bottom feeders just isn't fun EVEN IF YOU ARE ONE which is why the poor with any sense work to ESCAPE their peers.
Idealism is so cute. If you struck it rich would you buy a Section 8 complex so you could live there and share the group experience? Have you ev
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He [Musk] won't want to ride a train, because trains are full of poor people, and poor people might be dangerous criminals.
You need to be rich to buy a train ticket in the UK. But Musk has a phobia about trains (as do many Americans) - notice the avoidance of any train terminology in the context of the Hyperloop and the Boring tunnels - it's excruciating.
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In America people love their cars, if they can go from point A to point B without having to get out of their car they will do this. That way they don't need to leave the feeling of safety of being in their car, with all their luggage and other crap available.
I have a long commute, and I often envisioned, for the long part of my trip, if they had a flat bed train where I can park my car, while the train does the distance. Still working on that, I would need a way to not drain my 12v battery in my car, to ke
45 minutes walking (Score:2)
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It's a 15 minute walk.
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Also since when has a 0.8 mile walk take 45 minutes?
Have you seen most Americans?
look upon ye mighty and despair (Score:3, Interesting)
just saying, communism took literal dirt-farming slavs to space in like 50 years.
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You need to read about Sergei Korolev, who once told a general that was attempting to siphon resources away from the space program, "What we are doing is much more important than your bombs."
Re: look upon ye mighty and despair (Score:2)
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Speaking of space, have you been following what Musk is doing recently [google.com]?
Yes, the Boring Company is a scam built on a cult of personality. But it's a lot more harmless than cults of personality in communism [wikipedia.org]. And alongside his scams, Musk does have some remarkable accomplishments in fields like space travel and electric vehicles.
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"Yes it's a scam but it's not as bad as communism!"
truly a ringing endorsement...
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And it's a **fuck of a lot** more harmless than the grifter cults of the mega-churches.
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just saying, only the ones that were left and not starved to death or otherwise "liquidated".
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ah yes, the free market individualists at NASA.
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Sure, after they stole the technology, the scientists and the engineers from the country which was 20 years ahead of them in rocketry, and fed the country that they were 10 years behind false information to delay their program.
needs to go to airport and downtown (Score:2)
needs to go to airport and downtown and like the monorail the taxis will put up an big fight to stop it.
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I don't see why. It is taxis.
Here's a good video (Score:2)
Enough already (Score:2)
Just say no to Boring Company.
noboring.com
As expected (Score:2)
Anyone who bought anything from Elon would have expected something just like that. There is quiet a gap between Elon's hype and what he actually delivers. It's still impressive on some levels (diggings the tunnels for that price for example), but nowhere near the dream he sold. Same goes for his cars, full self driving, or even simple "summon" feature of Teslas which in 2014 Elon told people "will be able to find you anywhere on private property", 7 years later, those 2014 cars can in fact be summoned, but
Re:As expected (Score:5, Interesting)
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Self-Preservation Society (Score:2)
How to speed up the 45 minutes walk (Score:1)
Operating as expected (Score:1)
The problems described are exactly what public transport experts predicted would happen with this ridiculous transport system.
And who takes 45 minutes to walk 0.8 miles?
Do you know what would be a better shuttle? (Score:2)
Using Teslas is a gimmick that makes no sense. Even if they were automated, they are limited to 4 or 5 passengers and the added effort of boarding just makes the system less efficient and more prone to failure. It won't be long either before passengers start trashing the cars or they
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Absolutely. This entire projects is a massive joke that the rest of the world is laughing at.
They can't even be bothered to design more suitable vehicles than using Teslas as-is! If you are going this route, you would think a higher-capacity pod design (maybe build upon an extended Tesla chassis) would have been the obvious choice? I'm guessing the funding ran out for that work, and I'm also guess what has been delivered was at a loss to the boring company. I truly hope this will come eventually to salvage
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ROI should be measured in Teslas (Score:4, Interesting)
This may be a bit tongue in cheek, but I wonder how many additional Tesla vehicles need to be sold per Tunnel in order to break even.
The description of how the Boring tunnel works is always filled with visions of Tesla cars driving through them - never any other vehicle. On the surface of it, this seems natural given the relationship between The Boring Company and Tesla. However, the deeper message is that this is about selling more Teslas. So how many Teslas actually need to be sold to pay for a tunnel?
Airport underground trains (Score:1)
Gross (Score:2)
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Local government is run by a Trumper and COVID-denier who attempted to reopen the casinos this time last year. Her interviews are only slightly more coherent than a conversation with a lifelong wino, and she's been elected three times (last time by 60% of voters). Don't look for anything like sanity from the Las Vegas government.
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>Local government is run by a Trumper
???
The Goodmans are liberal democrats.
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Not according to the two interviews that I tried to decipher, I think their political alignment is "Which party is more likely to get me elected?" The woman is a hot mess, I wouldn't be surprised if it eventually comes out that she's got a meth habit. That's what she most reminds me of.
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no, really.
They are longtime hard-core liberal democrats.
I know and respect her, but I think she's *nuts* on that one issue.
They have *not* been partisan, though, in their running of the city, which will be 24 years as her third and last term ends.
Lithium Ion Batteries (Score:3)
Those batteries really worry me. Just one battery fire can lead to a catastrophe in this system.
I didn't see any fire safety devices in this video except for some marked exit doors in the tunnel.
I hope that barring much safer battery technology being readily available, that they will have these cars
get their power via inductive coupling with a power system built under the road (this was discussed here not long ago IIRC).
Another musk failure. (Score:3)
A complete and total failure. I canâ(TM)t believe the delusional musk lovers here. Absolutely no element of what must promise was delivered here. Itâ(TM)s an embarrassment. And it shouldnâ(TM)t even be functioning now it has to break hundreds of safety laws.
Itâ(TM)s amazing that when Elon makes ridiculous promises that violate the laws of physics people just lap it up like heâ(TM)s the second coming.
Re:Not impressive. Yet. (Score:5, Insightful)
This is just wrong.
Cars in cities do not offer "door to door" personal transport. If I took my car into London, I'd end up spending the last 15 or 20 minutes of my journey looking for somewhere to park it and the cost of parking is likely to exceed the cost of buying a tube ticket from just outside London (and parking there).
The LV loop cost $55 million for less than a mile which is way more than Elon's claim of $10 million per mile. It will not meet the contracted capacity and its running costs will be much higher than promised because they need to pay 62 drivers at all times. (As a side note, it's interesting that Tesla's "full self driving" can't cope with what ought to be about the easiest environment possible.) Who's going to pay for all these drivers?
The contracted capacity is supposed to be 4,000 per hour and the LV loop won't reach that. For comparison the Northern Line in London (which uses tunnels of the same diameter), has a maximum capacity of something over 100,000 passengers per hour.
The LV loop is just taxis in a tunnel. There's nothing new or revolutionary about it. In fact, it's a bit shit. Frankly, they must be embarrassed about it.
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I think you have take a really big step back to understand what has happened here. In US the main problem with public transport is that it's seen as a 'bad thing' in general. Maybe it's because it doesn't give you enough of 'freedom' Americans love to talk about so much. Maybe it's because of lobbying by car/oil industry.... Anyway, people don't like it and don't want to use it. What Musk is offering here is a American version of public transport where it's kind of like a public transport but not really. Of
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Where there is decent public transport in america people tend to use it , eg NYC, Boston. Its not the general public thats the issue, its political and corporate vested interests and nimbys who pretend they represent "the people" but are only interested in themselves.
Re:Not impressive. Yet. (Score:4, Insightful)
Anyway, people don't like it and don't want to use it.
The primary reason mass transit isn't more popular in the U.S. is simply that it doesn't go where a lot of people would find it useful. Walking 4-5 miles to the nearest city bus stop to board and then another couple of miles from the closest stop to your destination isn't very practical for most people.
Why there aren't more stops in desirable areas is due to a variety of other reasons, but people aren't going to use a service they don't find useful. As an American that has to drive everywhere due to a lack of mass transit options, I'd LOVE to have a system like the London Underground or Paris Metro available.
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What Musk is offering here is a American version of public transport where it's kind of like a public transport but not really.
It is taxis in a road tunnel, plain and simple. Do Americans regard taxis as public transport? IDK, I'm not one.
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In US the main problem with public transport is that it's seen as a 'bad thing' in general.
I can only comment on NYC, but I see it as a 'bad thing' because it is noisy, smelly, crowded, and in the summer it is too hot. I've used it anyway when in NYC, but I certainly wouldn't describe it as a pleasant experience.
And on the intercity front I can comment on the Acela. It is noisy and the seats are uncomfortable, so it gave me a headache. In theory it would be nice to relax and read a book instead of driving a car, but in practice I couldn't read on the train and was much less comfortable than as d
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You're stuck in the vision, not the reality, and certainly not the views of experienced industry experts.
What this is, is a short-distance multi-stop metro system, where each car is separate, which leads to congestion problems at the stations.
I know Musk has a vision where you pop into your Tesla at home, tell it to drive to work/downtown/etc, and the car uses suburban public highways, and then transits into the tunnel system to bypass the congested city routes, and then pops out near your destination. It's
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Maybe every other city in Europe and Asia, but this is the US we're talking about where transit budget shortfalls are frequently addressed by shutting down the most popular lines.
Re: Not impressive. Yet. (Score:2)
Dude, stop drinking the cool aid. Not even musk himself is stupid enough to invest in the hyperloop, that should tell you something.
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You just have to look like you might be able to afford a Tesla. They don't want to waste their marketing on the poor.
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Are you saying Musk is holding back the Electric Car?
Who holds back the electric car?
Who makes Steve Guttenberg a star?
We do, we do!