Amazon MMO New World Is Bricking RTX 3090s, Players Say; Amazon Responds (gamespot.com) 144
An anonymous reader quotes a report from GameSpot: Amazon [...] is now bricking high-end graphics cards with a beta for its MMO, New World, according to players. Amazon has now responded to downplay the incident but says it plans to implement a frame rate cap on the game's menus. According to users on Twitter and Reddit, New World has been frying extremely high-end graphics cards, namely Nvidia's RTX 3090. It's worth noting that while the RTX 3090 has an MSRP of $1,500, it's often selling for much more due to scarcity and scalpers, so players could easily be losing upwards of $2,000 if their card stops working.
Specifically, it seems that one model of the RTX 3090 is being consistently fried by New World. On Reddit, a lengthy thread of over 600 posts includes multiple users claiming that their EVGA 3090 graphics cards are now little more than expensive paperweights after playing the New World beta. The "red light of death," an indicator that something is disastrously wrong with your EVGA 3090, doesn't pop up consistently for players though. Some report their screen going black after a cutscene in the game while others have said that simply using the brightness calibration screen was enough to brick their card. Amazon Games says a patch is on the way to prevent further issues. "Hundreds of thousands of people played in the New World Closed Beta yesterday, with millions of total hours played. We've received a few reports of players using high-performance graphics cards experiencing hardware failure when playing New World," said Amazon Games in an official statement.
"New World makes standard DirectX calls as provided by the Windows API. We have seen no indication of widespread issues with 3090s, either in the beta or during our many months of alpha testing. The New World Closed Beta is safe to play. In order to further reassure players, we will implement a patch today that caps frames per second on our menu screen. We're grateful for the support New World is receiving from players around the world, and will keep listening to their feedback throughout Beta and beyond."
New World is currently set to launch for PC on August 31.
Specifically, it seems that one model of the RTX 3090 is being consistently fried by New World. On Reddit, a lengthy thread of over 600 posts includes multiple users claiming that their EVGA 3090 graphics cards are now little more than expensive paperweights after playing the New World beta. The "red light of death," an indicator that something is disastrously wrong with your EVGA 3090, doesn't pop up consistently for players though. Some report their screen going black after a cutscene in the game while others have said that simply using the brightness calibration screen was enough to brick their card. Amazon Games says a patch is on the way to prevent further issues. "Hundreds of thousands of people played in the New World Closed Beta yesterday, with millions of total hours played. We've received a few reports of players using high-performance graphics cards experiencing hardware failure when playing New World," said Amazon Games in an official statement.
"New World makes standard DirectX calls as provided by the Windows API. We have seen no indication of widespread issues with 3090s, either in the beta or during our many months of alpha testing. The New World Closed Beta is safe to play. In order to further reassure players, we will implement a patch today that caps frames per second on our menu screen. We're grateful for the support New World is receiving from players around the world, and will keep listening to their feedback throughout Beta and beyond."
New World is currently set to launch for PC on August 31.
StarCraft II (Score:5, Insightful)
Some part of the blame certainly goes to Blizzard, like it does to Amazon here. But most of the blame is on nVidia and or the AIB partner for not implementing proper safeguards to prevent this from happening. If such high temperatures are detected by the sensors, they ought to throttle at which rate the affected component is clocked in order to prevent damage.
So I presume in order to not have the hardware throttle nVidia assumes that what gaming developers do is always good and let them get around the safeguards that should protect the hardware.
I mean I run tools like Furmark to establish stability of a GPU. And that one is explicitly designed to be a power virus. Yet so far it has never killed any GPU that I've tested with it (yes, not even those old 8800GT).
Re:StarCraft II (Score:5, Insightful)
The 3090 does thermally throttle to protect itself.
My guess would be that the 2D rendering here is stressing one small part of the GPU that doesn't have a temperature sensor nearby because Nvidia figured it's never going to get hammered.
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All I can say is that it reminds me of that StarCraft II issue, where you had to force the game into VSync to prevent it from happening until Blizzard fixed the issue from their side. It would be somewhat embarrassing if it turns out to be the same or a very similar issue after over 10 years.
Maybe it was the users that screwed with something they shouldn't have. Some do use custom firmware in order to be better able to overclock their graphics
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But note the story is about PLAYERS blaming the game maker. This is a good example of ignorance (not intentional) causing a problem.
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I've seen menus run at thousands of FPS many times in different games that didn't cap the FPS, Nvidia should know that it's a common scenario.
Amazon are a bunch of c**ts for not immediately halting the game until the patch is fully rolled out. Sure this isn't exclusively their fault but continuing to brick $2000 cards because it only affects some people is complete shithead move. Anyone who's card is bricked by the game after Amazon knew about the issue should probably sue them* *I am not a lawyer, you have
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i don't see amazon at fault here. if the rendering is simple enough for a card to display it at huge fps, it is up to the card to throttle itself. EVGA is the only 3090 card bricking, so it's clearly an issue on their side
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Some part of the blame certainly goes to Blizzard, like it does to Amazon here.
No it doesn't. It's up to the hardware and firmware to be designed not to fail when standard system calls are made to it. If some non-standard calls are made tweak firmware / driver settings and bypass safety mechanisms such as power limits and thermal throttling then *and only then* does some Blame go to the programmer.
Otherwise the blame lies exclusively and exhaustively on the vendor.
Re:StarCraft II (Score:5, Insightful)
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I know, I floored my car in neutral for a while and the engine blew up, so I blamed the guy who sold me the gas for not warning me about that.
He said that $CAR_MAKER should have put some kind of RPM limiter doohickey in there but what does he know?
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This makes no sense. Timing issues are all built in, any part of the electronic device, should only clock as fast as it was designed to do. No software should be able to alter that, unless it alters the firmware controlling timing cycles. It all has to work together, to be timed to work together as controlled by the firmware, to not clock any faster than set by the firmware. Software should not make a difference.
Unless there is actual evidence of hardware failure (actual burnt out component), then likely th
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Yes and no.
While nvidia and amd should be blamed for permitting the GPU to achieve these temperatures in the VBIOS, generally the highest end models are a problem because usually they are not performance capped like their weaker siblings.
In the case of "the menu" triggering it, it's because the user has turned VSync off, and/or has a high-refresh rate monitor (eg 144, 240, etc) so the GPU tries to maximize the framerate. Getting 10,000fps on the menu is literately a spin-wait problem where the game should h
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Last year we had a bit of a controversy around EVGA's choice of capacitors on their cards, which could lead to crashes and other instability issues.
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tl;dr: In EVGA's case, alegedly it's the fan control leading to eventual failure of the GPU fan. Though it's still weird that this would fry the GPU instead of EVGA or nvidia putting in some mechanism that shuts the thing off if it gets too hit.
From personal experience I'm not sure what to do with that information.
Re:Some user error as well? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's the job of a graphics card manufacturer to implement safeguards in such a case anyway. That means if the user has a badly ventilated case, then the thermal control feedback loop of the hardware should throttle the performance instead of 'letting it burn'.
For example that's what you usually get with notebook hardware because cooling is difficult when you work with such confined spaces. If it gets too hot, which it often does after some time, leading to quite limited periods of peak performance. Then it throttles until the temperatures are lower again. Or in some of the worst cases it shuts off the entire system to prevent damage. It doesn't brick itself.
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It's the job of a graphics card manufacturer to implement safeguards in such a case anyway. That means if the user has a badly ventilated case, then the thermal control feedback loop of the hardware should throttle the performance instead of 'letting it burn'.
Exactly. Most CPUs have this integrated, and even low-cost stuff like the Raspberry Pi throttle the system to keep it from burning itself up.
The fact that Nvidia couldn't be bothered to do this is 100% on them.
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Could this be poor thermal pads? I've had the thermal pads dry out and crack due to heat on older hardware.
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It can also just be shit hardware, and not necessarily just from nVidia. It would not be the first time a OEM ships a card with inadequate cooling and and/or buggy firmware, particularly in the "gamer" market.
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If it's the processor then it's NVidia, if it's another component that dies, then it's on the card manufacturer and their quality control.
How about sending a card to EEVBlog [youtube.com] and Big Clive [youtube.com] for a tear down?
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My comment will likely be buried, but from the article it looks like this issue is prevalent among EVGA owners.
I remember the EVGA 1080 having the same issue.
https://www.theverge.com/circu... [theverge.com]
Yeah, I know, the article is from The Verge, it was the first one popping up after a cursory Google search.
Fact of the matter is, EVGA has had problems in the past, apparently they do again.
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Could this be poor thermal pads? I've had the thermal pads dry out and crack due to heat on older hardware.
It could be, but I would think that would just make the unit run hotter, which should be detected by the firmware and result in throttling. It seems that no such capability is built in from what I can tell.
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It may be misapplied thermal pads or outright faulty ones, but given the age of these cards it's incredibly unlikely to be issues with them drying out and cracking.
But that's neither here nor there. Not having a thermal pad should result in your card throttling not self destructing. Pretty much all heat generating components are monitored in real time.
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Its clear the technologies exist but don't work. I have no idea how game manufacturers would work around that in software though.
it's not like it's a secret- the temperature sensor readings are almost certainly available to any developer who cares to spend a moment implementing them, so they could pop up a warning to the user.
They shouldn't have to, though, because the real fault is with the firmware developers. I mean, if the Raspberry Pi developers can get it right then I'd suspect Nvidia could puzzle it out. They either just don't want to or they have such shoddy code that it's failing at what it's supposed to do. Either way, it's
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Caring about thermal events is a case for the hardware driver module, not the application programmer.
Bad or lack of thermal pads is the responsibility of the card manufacturer.
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Either way the hardware should detect an overheat condition and take appropriate action, such as throttling.
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It's often the driver that controls the throttling, not the hardware itself.
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laptops that could be on the surface of Mars and not shutdown.
How on Earth did you get your laptops to be that cold?
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I believe you meant "Venus" or "Mercury".
Mars is cold...
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That fact that you didn't even bother to read the damn summary means you fit in well here.
These cards aren't built by NVidia. The central GFX processing chip is, but the firmware and all other integration is done by EVGA in this case. And interestingly enough EVGA has promised to replace the burned up cards, leading one to think it's an issue EVGA knew about and hoped that wouldn't happen with devs in the real world.
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Okay, fine: The fact that EVGA couldn't be bothered to do this is 100% on them.
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For example that's what you usually get with notebook hardware because cooling is difficult when you work with such confined spaces.
Nitpick: That's what you get in all hardware now. CPUs and GPUs boost and throttle well above limits which a safe for the long term. It's why changing coolers and coolers alone can give you a noticeable performance difference. This isn't the 00s where we're loosely binning parts in a rushed way to get them out the door and leaving loads of headroom for budding overclockers to gain massive amounts of performance.
But notebook hardware is of course an order of magnitude worse than desktops. Just look at people
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It's entirely up to the manufacturer to make the product run out of the box while not dying running within specifications. And yes, the product must necessarily comply to the specifications out of the box. Otherwise the buyer could sue over the product being fraudulent.
You probably also wouldn't accept that you'd have to figure out which and buy a custom cooli
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And logic also isn't your strong suit. I'm not going to humor you any further you fucking moron.
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This isn't the 90s, hardware should detect overheating conditions and throttle down to compensate to save itself. Anything else is poor hardware design. CPUs have done this for years, and it's how they get such great performance for short bursts of time while not cooking themselves. GPUs do it too, but apparently someone at Nvidia screwed up.
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EVGA makes some good cards, and others are substandard. They were selling $400 2060's without backplates for example even though for years getting a backplate on an $200+ card is standard.
This problem is more likely an oversight than any sort of cost cutting nonsense though, and whatever EVGA messed up nVidia approved it.
Highly unlikely the game is causing this though (Score:4, Informative)
Sounds like a typical factory-overclocked "gamer" card going out of thermal specs.
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Re:Highly unlikely the game is causing this though (Score:5, Insightful)
I understand: that's still a hardware failure. GPUs are not suppsed to overheat and die even if you run them full tilt.
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I understand your assumption, but years ago, around ten or so, a new CAD release melted my (mid/high-range) graphics card.
No it didn't. Your card not having correct firmware limits set by the OEM melted your graphics card. Your CAD release simply gave it a workload it should have taken gracefully.
Blame where blame is due, unless your software tweaked hardware settings or bypassed safety mechanisms then blame lies squarely on the vendor of the hardware.
If I sell you a car with a tachometer showing the redline at 12000rpm, and a rev limiter set at 12000rpm, then it is definitely NOT your fault if the car blows up while you're dr
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It's Nvidia's fault (Score:5, Insightful)
If it is true that this software is bricking the graphics card, then surely it's Nvidia's fault for allowing that to happen?
I mean, if they are using standard APIs and there isn't any protection against overheating in the card firmware or drivers then that is surely Nvidia's problem.
Fixing to a maximum fps seems like it would reduce the pressure on the GPU to work around the issue but shouldn't be required.
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Reminds me of when I think it read Dell claimed that VLC could damage speakers on its laptops. Installing VLC voided the warranty on the speakers if you forgot to delete it before RMAing the machine.
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then that is surely Nvidia's problem.
Only if it's an NVIDIA FE card. OEM manufacturers of chips leave the implementation entirely up to the vendor. EVGA is quite well known for binning chips and producing some cards with incredibly high factory overclocks and significantly higher current powersupplies tweaking the chips to the last inch of their life, which of course also makes them benchmark higher than NVIDIA's own products.
Re:It's Nvidia's fault (Score:5, Informative)
Agreed. Professional videogame developer here, although admittedly not a graphics specialist. Videogame developers literally have zero direct access through hardware, or even access to drivers. We simply make use of common APIs like DirectX.
But all this indicates is that there's some thermal-related flaw in Nvidia's RTX 3090 cards that the game just happens to be exposing, NOT that there's anything necessarily bad the game is doing. Really, the only thing a game can do in this case is detect this card and throttle down the rendering / shader details to try to avoid working the card too much, or just cap framerate overall (which it sounds like what Amazon is doing).
It's sort of ridiculous for the headlines and article to insinuate that this is Amazon's fault in any way. Any other number of games are likely doing the same thing, but it would be hard to detect a correlation, unlike with a new MMO. Gamers routinely come to all sorts of ridiculous conclusions about how the DirectX calls your game is making must somehow be unique from all the other DirectX calls other games are making, and therefore it's your game's fault that their hardware caught fire.
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Awwww
And I was picturing bezos with a stupid grin slowly stroking his bald cat.
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Really, the only thing a game can do in this case is detect this card and throttle down the rendering / shader details to try to avoid working the card too much, or just cap framerate overall (which it sounds like what Amazon is doing).
So why don't games cap the frame rate by default? It should be possible to detect the screen refresh rate, then cap it to that number. There's no reason to render 1 million fps when your screen can only display 60 of them. It's just wasting power.
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It generally is a good idea for a game to offer the option to cap frame rate to the refresh rate, and I think it should be enabled by default. In fact, modern Nvidia drivers have this capability themselves, without relying on the game to enforce this. Running uncapped can be useful for benchmarking, or when tuning graphics options, so it's often optional.
My point, though, is that it's a bit misleading to blame this obvious hardware fault on a game which simply works the GPU too hard to the point of (proba
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Then enjoy your coupon for 5 percent (or more likely 25 cents) off a replacement card while the lawyers vacation on an island somewhere.
Definitely should be fixed by card vendor (Score:5, Insightful)
Misleading... (Score:4, Informative)
Clever new malware (Score:3)
10 PRINT "NVIDIA SUCKS"
20 GOTO 10
Behold the evil genius of not self-throttling!
Warranty? (Score:2)
Wouldn't these cards be under warranty?
I suppose getting a replacement would take some time if it happened at all. I've had two cards replaced under warranty, PNY, the psychedelic checkboard screen of death (Only in the winter when the card was cooler).
Amazon Support: You know this is a BETA, right? (Score:2)
And so as a KNOWLEDGEABLE beta user you would NOT leave the framerate set at uncapped on a high power/throughput video adapter of course, would you?
Yay hardware failure (Score:3)
This is probably due to a very specific combinaison of calls that taxes one part (but not all) of the 3090, making it overheat while the actual thermal sensor is far from that taxed piece, before the cooling has time to kick. So it has time to fry. Once the game is loaded and gone through its paces, it's probably fine, as the entire card's cooling gets ramped up.
The said part is the game vendor probably didn't have any 3090 EVGA at hand, so they probably had to purchase 4-5 of them at scalper costs to try out the game, bork 1-2 of them, and fix the issue, letting the game soak up on that 3090 for some moment. Yay for 10-15k$ worth of scalpers money.
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EVGA cards are riddled with temp probes. The GPU, each memory module, each power supply...
The GPU die itself is large, though, and non-uniform in power dissipation across its surface area. A single temperature sensor (or even several of them) cannot accurately detect a situation where the total power dissipation and average die temperature are acceptable, but a localized region of the die is responsible for the majority of that power dissipation and thus has a peak temperature beyond acceptable limits.
It's a secret plot (Score:3)
Amazon is trying to corner the bitcoin mining market so just like the Malaysian police, they're crushing the competition.
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I'm actually kinda surprised some video game company hasn't tried this yet; only mining when the GPU isn't heavily utilized.
Shitty hardware (Score:2)
The hardware must be pretty shitty if software can destroy it. It never happens with cpus. Ooops ran prime95 for too long and now it won't boot, said no one ever.
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It never happens with cpus.
Errr yeah it does, and a couple of motherboard vendors have been called out in the past for setting up CPUs to boost way beyond spec causing hardware damage. And yes this is entirely up to motherboard vendors, Intel simply provide the values to use to motherboard vendors.
If your processing hardware is so shitty (Score:2, Informative)
Comment removed (Score:4, Funny)
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EVGA will be replacing all bricked GPUs (Score:2, Informative)
Nvidia's shit engineering (Score:2)
Nvidia's shit engineering bricked these cards. Not a game from Amazon.
All Nvidia's fault (Score:2)
Surely it's not reasonable to expect game designers to know the failure limits of every type of hardware (including not yet released hardware) that might run their games.
Mask roms (Score:2)
How about software in mask rom that the user can fall back on in case the flash based firmware gets borked?
I wouldn't expect this in a cheap crap no name graphics card, but the high end ones should have this as a standard feature.
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How about software in mask rom that the user can fall back on in case the flash based firmware gets borked?
I wouldn't expect this in a cheap crap no name graphics card, but the high end ones should have this as a standard feature.
The ignorant journalist is misusing the word "bricked" in this case. Amazon's MMO is not doing anything to the card's firmware. It's causing a part of the card to overheat to the point of failure. The magic smoke is being let out, rather than bricking the cards. And yes, nVidia should design their chips better so that doesn't happen. Thermal throttling has been an important feature in integrated circuits for 16 years since Intel introduced it into the Pentium IV. You'd think nVidia would have mastered
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An EPROM (the kind you erase with UV light, not an EEPROM) might be a suitable choice. You can re-program it, but it requires taking a label off a chip and leaving it under a lamp, so it's not susceptible to editing after the fact. However, they could still be kept updated at the factory until either the label goes on the chip, or some other piece of the build blocks the light instead.
I remember motherboards having dual BIOS, one you can flash and one you can't. This would be the GPU equivalent.
Re: Mask roms (Score:2)
Sadly, a lot of vintage computer hardware does not work anymore because the EPROM used for the firmware has faded overtime. This is especially true for hardware for the 1970s and 80s.
Of course, even back then companies did not expect people to be using that hardware 40 years later, and it's extremely true for today's 'fast tech'.
Like how table top electronic games will never use a real VFD again (a real shame, those were awesome. The LCD facimilies used in today's 'classic' re-releases really don't
EVGA doing their best (Score:3)
According to JayzTwoCents, EVGA is honoring all RMAs and even cross-shipping the replacement rather than waiting for the broken one to arrive. While this is definitely the best way to save face in this situation, I have to wonder what's going to happen when their stock runs out, and further what they do when the replacement cards start getting RMA'd too.
Known problem for months on the EVGA FTW3 models (Score:5, Informative)
How is this Amazon's fault? (Score:2)
Could somebody please explain to this dummy how can any user-mode software be held responsible for a hardware failure? I don't like Amazon at all, but IMHO EVGA, nVIDIA, and whoever else sells this faulty hardware should prepare to pay fully for these damages AND recall what still works, or expect a class-action lawsuit. BTW, what happens, if some malware written for lulz, performs the same operations and bricks the GPUs?
Is Amazon Doing Compute in Background? (Score:2)
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I hope you make a full recovery from your head injury and that you eventually become a productive member of society.
Re:Be smart when gaming. (Score:5, Informative)
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He's a chiropractor. Probably flunked out of locksmith school and had no other options.
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It might be a bluelight filter, which you know, is a thing.
Many mid-high end gaming montors have a blue-light reduction filter mode. I run mine at BL2 and it makes everything slightly warm.
That said, those old-school filters on CRT's were polarizers for privacy. They did not block radiation, they just made it so that people couldn't snoop over your shoulder. They work much poorer on LCD monitors as the LCD itself tended to have poor viewing angles from the beginning and using a polarizer privacy filter woul
Re: Be smart when gaming. (Score:2)
At first I thought the poster was joking, but you can't be so certain in this day and age. :\
PS. The Earth is flat, and the politician you hate really does eat babies.
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Re: Be smart when gaming. (Score:5, Insightful)
Considering he is a Doctor
A DC is not a medical doctor.
Listen to the science
Chiropractic is not science.
Re: Be smart when gaming. (Score:5, Funny)
So... Dr. Pepper is now some sort of medicine, I take it?
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What do you mean "now"? Go take a look at the original advertisements from the 1880s. They're all about "good for brain and brawn", and promoting "vim, vigor, and vitality", as well as "health in every drop".
Re: Be smart when gaming. (Score:4, Funny)
So... Dr. Pepper is now some sort of medicine, I take it?
It does cure thirst, but also makes me vomit.
So, mixed results.
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I can drink one, maybe two Dr Peppers a year, and that's about my limit.
I know people who love love love the stuff, but it's just never really caught on with me.
For example, I know developer named Paul who could easily down a 6-pack a day of the stuff. I watched him do it for two solid years, day in and day out.
Paul W., if you're out there, your love of Dr Pepper doesn't make you cool or interesting, nor does it offset the fact that you're an annoying, intrusive asshole. If you didn't know Python you'd be w
Re: Be smart when gaming. (Score:2)
Doctor Pepper isn't a person and as such isn't a reliable source of medical advice.
Doctor Bob is.
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As a German native speaker, when you talk about "Dr. Bob", I'm thinking of this guy [wikipedia.org].
And even that guy I grant more medical knowledge than the goofball at the top of this subthread.
Re: Be smart when gaming. (Score:2)
I told you, carbonated beverages aren't doctors! Not even fritz-kola.
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Neither is this guy, so what's your point?
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I think I will trust the experts
Let us know when you find some.
Sincerely,
Dr. Thegarbz, PhD and expert in the field of spotting morons on the internet. I wrote Dr. in front of my name so clearly you value my opinion.
Re: Be smart when gaming. (Score:2)
The Hollywood Upstairs Medical College is a bit loose on their graduation requirements, or so I heard.
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If he's a medical doctor, it's time to reevaluate the entry bar for this profession.
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No no, the bar is for lawyers, not doctors.
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No no, the bar is for lawyers, not doctors.
No, the bar is for alcoholics and day drinkers.
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So ... for lawyers and doctors.
Re: Be smart when gaming. (Score:2)
I hope he is the doctORB I am so desperately seeking. I just happened to fall on a bullet, and I really don't trust hospitals to keep my confidentiality. And my money is running a bit low because people stopped believing that I was the wallet inspector.
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Perhaps game publishers and graphics card manufacturers should team up
Or the graphics card manufacturers should hire engineers. Thermal management, safe operating area, and thermal throttling are a big deal if you want to avoid this sort of situation.
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If you want to be safe, always cap your framerate in the drivers to your monitor's maximum refresh rate.
If you want to be safe buy cards from vendors who don't purposely push them above their maximum specs in the hope of one-upping each other by 1% on some benchmark.
And you would be wrong (Score:2)
I blame Bitcoin mining. Probably used cards are being sold as new.
GPUs are not used for bitcoin mining. Specialized ASICs are, its been that way for a decade or more.
Etherium and other alt-coins use GPUs. But even if you refer to etherium rather than bitcoin you would still be wrong. Miners optimize their rigs for efficiency, which maximizes profit per watt, which generally means running on lower power settings.