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Transportation

Biden Wants Half of New Cars Sold in 2030 To Be Hybrid or All-Electric (theverge.com) 293

President Biden wants 50 percent of all new cars sold in the United States in 2030 to be all-electric, plug-in hybrid, or hydrogen-powered. From a report: In addition, his administration will propose new fuel economy and emissions standards that will more or less erase the Trump administration's rollback of the previous Obama-era rules covering cars made through 2025. Biden will also sign an executive order that tasks the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) to develop aggressive long-term rules to support his 2030 target, ones that include medium- and heavy-duty vehicles as well. "When I say electric vehicles are the future, I'm not joking," read a tweet from the President on Wednesday night.

This planned shift away from internal combustion engines is not as aggressive as the approaches that have been proposed or set in motion around the world. The European Union has proposed a de-facto ban on sales of new gas-powered passenger vehicles by 2035, though France has pushed back on the phaseout of hybrids, which still use fossil fuels. The United Kingdom wants to stop selling new combustion engine vehicles by 2030. China wants all new cars sold in 2035 to be hybrids at the very least, but is aiming for 50 percent to be plug-in hybrid, battery electric, or hydrogen-powered.

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Biden Wants Half of New Cars Sold in 2030 To Be Hybrid or All-Electric

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  • Lol (Score:4, Funny)

    by ArchieBunker ( 132337 ) on Thursday August 05, 2021 @11:15AM (#61659327)

    Slashdot: Bitcoin is a waste of electricity, ban it!

    Also slashdot: It’s my money I can drive around getting 8 miles per gallon if I want!

    • I dare you to find an actual example of someone who claims both.

    • Also slashdot: It’s my money I can drive around getting 8 miles per gallon if I want!

      I tried that defense at my hearing. "It's my money, I can do what I want" just wasn't very persuasive to that judge as to why I hired those prostitutes.

      You want to be a raging asshole? no one is stopping you. There is no mandate and if they ever made one, there would be a million loopholes, including the secondary market. You can drive whatever asshole-mobile you like. When you pull up in your vintage H2, all the ladies will know you as the virile stud you are, with the perfectly sized and fully fun

    • Slashdot a science and technology site, where new technology is bad and scary.

      There is no hypocrisy going on they will grasp at straws to show how any new technology is really REALLY bad, despite actual facts and numbers. If the new technology has Any Tradeoff no matter how minor, it is game for full attack.

      It reminds me about 20 years ago, when I First Started working as a consultant, the Company was running on a 20 year old mainframe. He completely dismissed using newer Sun Gear to do the work as it can p

    • Slashdot: Bitcoin is a waste of electricity, ban it!

      Also slashdot: It’s my money I can drive around getting 8 miles per gallon if I want!

      Meanwhile, if I had bought bitcoin the last time a doomsday bitcoin value article ran here, I’d have already made almost 50% and could afford that Tesla.

  • when I didn't have money, I'd buy used, and still do for the most part. It's all fine and dandy when people can afford to buy a new car, but the prices of cars with new safety features and complex hybrid systems keep going up ($24K is about the lowest you can go now for a hybrid). This prices more and more middle-class Americans out of new cars, and puts pressure on the available used car market through a combination of demand and reduced supply.

    What Americans need is an affordable and reasonably environmen

    • by Comboman ( 895500 ) on Thursday August 05, 2021 @11:56AM (#61659517)

      The first Prius hybrid was sold 20 years ago. The first Nissan Leaf (fully electric) was sold 11 years ago. There are lots of used HEV and EV cars out there for reasonable prices (comparable to ICE models of the same year).

      What Americans need is an affordable and reasonably environmentally responsible car industry. Not mandates that are going to be ineffective.

      The industry has proven time and again that they will not be responsible without mandates. When forced to make fuel-efficient cars they just stopped selling cars and sold SUVs and pickups instead.

      • by King_TJ ( 85913 )

        Problem is, those earlier electric cars are in pretty sad shape now. Very few people will service one, selling a replacement battery pack at a decent price and installing it for you.

        That's why most aren't really viable as used car options.

      • The first Nissan Leaf (fully electric) was sold 11 years ago.

        Oof, I wouldn’t have used the Leaf as an example, that first year Leaf had a class action suit on the battery. Even the subsequent years didn’t see the battery reliability fixed so much as minimum incremental improvement. Then to lower costs, the replacement packs were even lower quality cells than the originals. Lesson of the day is to avoid the older EV without any cooling or properly programmed battery management systems. Old EVs are great, as long as you understand the battery costs, they

    • Currently the big price barrier with full EV are the battery costs, with an industry and government push for mining of materials, recycling old batteries, and new Research and Development of Battery technology, where we can get the cost of a EV quality batteries down to an affordable level. The price of the EV cars in theory could drop to much lower than that of an ICE Car.

      EV are just simpler technology, Electric Motor(s) that spin the wheel, powered by computer to control speed, heating and cooling to man

      • EVs in general are quite simple, but cars are getting more and more complex every year. Infotainment systems, smart this, smart that, auto driving. Nobody seems interested in just making a simple vehicle to get you from A to B. Every vehicle wants to be a status symbol, even if it's just a basic sedan. I would love to have a simple basic vehicle just for basic tasks using around town. But they don't make a simple vehicle anymore.

    • by Ichijo ( 607641 )

      This prices more and more middle-class Americans out new cars

      Historically, the way we solved the problem of middle-class Americans being priced out of driving has been to heavily subsidize it with the sales tax [taxfoundation.org]. So we could double down on that strategy in order to keep our roads full of cars if you think that's a good thing.

    • Based on my poorest friends- Ending ICE sales in 2035 (the drop dead date of most states) means that 99% of the cars on the road will be electric by 2055.

      I bought my prius used for $6000 in 2012- a 2006.

      I suspect that electrics will see similar steep depreciation.

  • by ti-coune ( 837201 ) on Thursday August 05, 2021 @11:19AM (#61659347)
    A significant part of these electric cars will be purchased from Tesla, so wondering why President Biden did not invite Tesla to his upcoming meeting with other US car manufacturers at the White House.
    • by EnsilZah ( 575600 ) <EnsilZah@@@Gmail...com> on Thursday August 05, 2021 @11:43AM (#61659445)

      Speculation seems to be that it's because the administration is favoring unionized manufacturers.
      They're getting an extra $2500 in incentives per car sold as well.

    • Telsa has done a great job at making luxury electric cars; but a poor job at making affordable cars, the kind the majority of Americans drive (no the Model 3 is not affordable, just slightly less luxury).

    • by ArchieBunker ( 132337 ) on Thursday August 05, 2021 @12:07PM (#61659587)

      Probably because Tesla hasn't paid them enough.

      https://www.opensecrets.org/or... [opensecrets.org]
      https://www.opensecrets.org/or... [opensecrets.org]
      https://www.opensecrets.org/or... [opensecrets.org]

    • by jellomizer ( 103300 ) on Thursday August 05, 2021 @12:24PM (#61659681)

      Tesla is kinda in a political Limbo.
      As the GOP is backed by Big Oil, So they don't like Tesla (Tesla also doesn't do traditional advertising, so they are not putting money into Cable News Pockets)
      The Democrats are backed by Unions, Tesla is a non-union shop, So the Democrats like Biden will more likely put GM and Ford in the spotlight than Tesla (Tesla also doesn't do traditional advertising, so they are not putting money into Cable News Pockets)

      Tesla is based in California and to be moving to Texas. Both states are large and wealthy, so the growth or loss of Tesla isn't going to get people up in arms and changing their votes. Unlike say GM or Ford closing plants in Michigan, which a large part of its economy is around these few companies.

      At this phase, I don't think Tesla needs to worry too much about it though, they tend to get the love of Local Politics, which is enough for them, plus at the Word of Mouth advertising seems to be working for them.

      • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        Tesla already makes 100% electric cars. It's the others who need some encouragement to clean up.

  • by FuzzMaster ( 596994 ) on Thursday August 05, 2021 @11:24AM (#61659367)
    We have a lot of work to do to build the electrical infrastructure to support the kind of increased demand this would cause. The math on this is not very favorable when we have states like California and New York closing perfectly safe nuclear plants to please a political lobby.
    • Do you think that everyone will be charging their cars from empty to 100% every night?

      • Nothing in my comment suggests anything like that. But if 50% of cars are electric, that means 50% of the energy that is currently supplied by gasoline for cars will have to be supplied by electricity, instead. Do the math and tell me how California's barely-surviving grid is going to do by the year 2030.
    • Solar panels on peoples homes that is connected to the grid, is a wonderful solution, while it may not cover 100% of what is needed, it does offer individuals a way to be self sufficient (with say a battery backup), as well be able to work with the larger power generation to help keep the load needed.

      Nuclear power, just is not Clean or Safe nor Affordable. No it isn't a nuclear bomb that is going to blow up, but it will require a lot of monitoring and safety regulations to keep it running, as these plants

      • Liar, the dangerous radioisotopes that kill and maim are from coal plants. No radiation maiming or deaths at commercial nuclear power plants, only industrial accidents of the type that happen at fossil plants too (electrocution, feedwater pipe breaking, steam pipe breaking, equipment falling)

        The experiment has been fine.

      • "Nuclear power, just is not Clean or Safe nor Affordable. No it isn't a nuclear bomb that is going to blow up, but it will require a lot of monitoring and safety regulations to keep it running, as these plants get older it is clear that the Nuclear Power Experiment was not as good as they hoped."

        I wonder who will pay the bill for guarding the radioactive ashes for 250,000 years.

      • Nuclear power, just is not Clean or Safe nor Affordable.

        Yes it is.

        but it will require a lot of monitoring and safety regulations to keep it running, as these plants get older it is clear that the Nuclear Power Experiment was not as good as they hoped.

        I suspect there is a bright future ahead from SMRs that are cheap, inherently safe and mostly constructed offsite.

      • Nuclear power is extremely safe and has an almost impeccable track record in America. It is clean since it does not emit carbon and the used fuel is manageable. The only reason it isn't affordable is that it is not allowed to externalize its environmental costs, unlike other forms of power. It should get the same green-energy subsidies that wind and solar do, and carbon-intensive sources should be paying for the damage to the environment.

        New designs are safer than ever and there's no way to meet this increa

  • by nealric ( 3647765 ) on Thursday August 05, 2021 @11:25AM (#61659373)

    This change over is likely to happen regardless of what the U.S. government mandates (or not). Several manufacturers have announced they are ceasing R&D on internal combustion engines, and the big ones have announced major product shifts to EVs. Once the market makes that calculus, there's no going back.

    • We really need the government to settle the issue of charging standards though. Also some changes to the electric grid to accommodate increased / changing demands, and transition to renewable electricity generation. Without federal action standardization will be slower in coming, and the environmental benefits might be reduced or delayed indefinitely because markets weed out whatever isn't cheapest in the short term.
      • The standards have already pretty much consolidated to CSS and Tesla. ChadeMo is the only other one, and it's basically just the Leaf that still uses it. Since there are adaptors available in both directions (although Tesla won't sell its CSS adapter in the U.S. for some reason), standards aren't really that big of a deal.

        • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          The EU forced Tesla to adopt CCS. Most EU countries have set a date for the end of all ICE sales, generally between 2030 and 2040.

          The US should do likewise.

        • The standards have already pretty much consolidated to CSS and Tesla. ChadeMo is the only other one, and it's basically just the Leaf that still uses it. Since there are adaptors available in both directions (although Tesla won't sell its CSS adapter in the U.S. for some reason), standards aren't really that big of a deal.

          The standards are actually a HUGE deal, I’m furious at how the infrastructure is being treated as private business model. Imagine if Ford gas stations refused to sell gas to chevys or any other make. This BS around the charging infrastructure being exclusionary and requiring unnecessary duplication of charging stations is a major factor in stopping competition and it slows widespread adoption.

          • But Tesla has already announced it is opening its network up to other makes. We may have a lack of chargers in total, but interoperability isn't going to be an issue.

    • This is what I came to say. The manufacturers are moving to electric, and the people are beginning to love electric as well.
      My neighbour is a drag racer and big time gearhead, I was talking to him a couple of months ago when he had borrowed an electric car from work, and he was in love with the instant power. We also discussed the possibility of an electric dragster. We agreed that while less exciting, in a big noise way, that in a very few years all drag racing will be moving to electric because it will
    • Modern EV are superior to ICE in a lot of ways, and not just about the environment.
      1. High Torque. The recently released Tesla Model S Plaid while being 120k car, had outperformed cars that cost over $3 million to make. Also the Specs on the new Electric Trucks from Tesla, Ford, GM, Rivian... are insane compared to the normal ICE Trucks today, for their size.

      2. Simpler design. EV only have a few dozen moving parts, vs hundreds of parts in ICE. And most of the design is around a standard Skateboard Batte

      • 7 lower cost of ownership isn’t really true. If your goal is to get a car cheaply, you’re looking at 2x the price for an EV. Those ten(s) of thousands aren’t outstripped by modest gas costs (electricity is only 2-4x cheaper per mile depending on location) and repairs. One day maybe, we need cheaper batteries.
  • by Kokuyo ( 549451 ) on Thursday August 05, 2021 @11:35AM (#61659401) Journal

    So the pandemic isdoing what it does... meanwhile the restrictions are lifting and I'm starting to go back to work in person for a few days a week.

    Ya know what I notice? How much I LOATHE other human beings. Commuting both with my car and public transportation makes me want to choke a motherfucker... daily. Sometimes quarter hourly depending on how many idiots are on the road.

    I'm thinking about buying a pedelec. I don't want to pay the railway company 3k+ a year if I only go to the office twice or three times a week.

    It's just unfortunate those things cost 5k+ right now... But I might be able to do the 32km in the same timeframe it'd take me by train. And that way, not only would I have my physical activity licked without having to cough up extra motivation, it would also get me out into fresh air.

  • First it's all EVs, then all EVs or hydrogen, then all EVs, hydrogen, or range-extended EVs. Now it's 50%.

    The lack of honesty disgusts me as much as the top-down dictates. Not a single prominent advocate for all EV private transportation, private sector, government, or elected official, has the balls to tell the truth that EVs are *not* a one-to-one replacement for ICE cars and trucks and that while there are some things they can do better, there are also things they can't do period.

    That would be like telli

    • by dfghjk ( 711126 )

      "What "prominent advocate[s] for all EV private transportation" did you consider in this analysis of yours, and what public positions have those advocates taken? Citations please.

      Sounds like complete "fake news" bullshit to me. Furthermore, we don't need "one-to-one replacement[s] of ICE".

  • With what money? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by rsilvergun ( 571051 ) on Thursday August 05, 2021 @11:39AM (#61659421)
    the current tax breaks only apply to high income earners (e.g. you need to be able to itemize and write off $7500 from your taxes). Make it a direct tax credit like when I replaced my AC 20 years ago and we'll talk.

    This encourages car companies to make their electrics expensive luxury cars to cater to people who can apply for that credit. Economies of scale can't kick in when the incentive structures meant to get a new market off the ground are this counter productive.

    Until then Electric cars will be luxury items or overpriced, half ass & poorly engineered vehicles built to comply with emission requirements and that catch fire.
    • the current tax breaks only apply to high income earners (e.g. you need to be able to itemize and write off $7500 from your taxes). Make it a direct tax credit like when I replaced my AC 20 years ago and we'll talk.

      It's a nonrefundable tax credit, not a tax deduction.
      See: https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/... [cnet.com]

  • by ahoffer0 ( 1372847 ) on Thursday August 05, 2021 @12:15PM (#61659633)

    Presidents says a lot of things.
    How many here are old enough to remember the "hydrogen economy"?

    "President Bush's $1.2 billion hydrogen fuel initiative aims to reverse America's growing dependence on foreign oil by accelerating the commercialization of hydrogen-powered fuel cells to power cars, trucks, homes and businesses with no pollution or greenhouse gases."

    That was June 2003.

  • Locking yourself in a gas-only car will be increasingly risky. Personally I'm not putting all my eggs in one basket will gasoline-only cars.

    • Especially when most places only sell petrol and diesel. I could be 50 or 60 miles away from a gas pump but a petrol one is never far
    • You're funny. The vehicles that get stranded without station are electric ones. Where I live the diesel and the gasoline stations less than two miles apart... when there aren't a couple competing ones on the same block.

      It will take years to build out electric stations, let's revisit topic in 5 years, the big makers should have competitive prices there will be many times the rechargers.

  • Pretty soon the US will be nothing but people maintaining old cars. Instead Biden should require Fed government purchase/lease hybrids or electric vehicles (IMHO).

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