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Germany Raises Prospect of Shutting Telegram Over Hate Threats (bloomberg.com) 102

Posted by BeauHD from the last-resort dept.
Germany raised the prospect of closing down the Telegram messaging service over concerns about its use as a platform for extremist groups. Bloomberg reports: The country could seek to block the service if the government reaches the conclusion that it breeches national and European Union law. "A shutdown would be very serious and clearly the last resort," Interior Minister Nancy Faeser said in an interview with German weekly Die Zeit. Before such a step, all other options would have to be exhausted, but "we can't exclude this per se," the SPD politician said. Talks about possible measures against Telegram are ongoing, an Interior Ministry spokesman said on Wednesday, adding that it wasn't clear what legal and technical procedures would be necessary to switch off Telegram.
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Germany Raises Prospect of Shutting Telegram Over Hate Threats More

Germany Raises Prospect of Shutting Telegram Over Hate Threats

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  • They really think they have the power to control the internet.
    Cute.

    • They really think they have the power to control the internet.

      It is not just the Internet. Germans also use phones to discuss bad things.

      To be safe, they should also shut down the postal service.

      • >It is not just the Internet. Germans also use phones to discuss bad things.

        It's worse than that! People might even have bad thoughts in their heads. Can you believe it?

        • People might even have bad thoughts in their heads.

          We can't let that happen. These people should be shunned.

          • Re:Cute (Score:4, Insightful)

            by fahrbot-bot ( 874524 ) on Wednesday January 12, 2022 @09:47PM (#62169113)

            It is not just the Internet. Germans also use phones to discuss bad things.

            People might even have bad thoughts in their heads.

            We can't let that happen. These people should be shunned.

            Or put in camps -- oh... wait.

            • You're all thought criminals.

            • Germany likes to pretend it doesn't still have a Nazi problem. But German Neo-Nazis [kpbs.org] are not in short supply. Nazi content and holocaust denial is illegal in Germany, which has only driven their Nazis underground and made them harder to track... and easier to ignore.

              We have the same problem here in the USA, where white supremacists have managed to get many jobs in policing [rollingstone.com], so I'm not suggesting I'm feeling smug. Rather, I'm concerned.

              • Germany likes to pretend it doesn't still have a Nazi problem. But German Neo-Nazis [kpbs.org] are not in short supply. Nazi content and holocaust denial is illegal in Germany, which has only driven their Nazis underground and made them harder to track... and easier to ignore.

                We have the same problem here in the USA, where white supremacists have managed to get many jobs in policing [rollingstone.com], so I'm not suggesting I'm feeling smug. Rather, I'm concerned.

                I'm not sure they're pretending as much as trying to avoid it.

                Germany more than anyone understands the danger that Nazis and other extremists pose. Shutting down Telegram isn't Germany blindly repeating the mistakes of the past, it's Germany doing everything it can to never repeat the mistakes of the past.

                I don't know if this is the right tactic, but I wager there's few countries who have thought as deeply about how to prevent right wing extremism as Germany.

                • I don't know if this is the right tactic, but I wager there's few countries who have thought as deeply about how to prevent right wing extremism as Germany.

                  You can't fight it by driving it underground, which is what they've done. You want idiots to be idiots out in the open, so you know who the idiots are. Tightening their grasp only leads to the slime squirting out between their fingers.

        • That is because we have a big beheading campaign coming.
          At the moments we start with volunteers.
          Then we start with kids, that helps saving costs in schooling etc.
          Not sure what is first actually, kids or elderly, elderly would help in saving costs in healthcare etc.
          Then we go for the unemployed.

          Well, kind f sucks ti get unemployed if yu ware in kid or elderly care, I guess we give you a 3 days grace period to get a new job.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Teun ( 17872 )
        Don't confuse the effect of one-on-one communication with the wide spread of (mis)information by the social media.

        • So, how exactly is Telegram different from SMS, other than the encryption?

          As far as I can find, it is an IM client, so much like Skype. You can communicate to groups or individuals. It isn't really Social Media in any way though, as what you post isn't really publicly accessible.

      • Police can tap into phones if a judge allows this. They want that power for everything which is widely known to the public.
        And the "widely known" part is why shutting down telegram could actually make sense. Sure, there will be alternatives, but they won't be known to little criminals.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Aubz ( 7986666 )
      Quick, close down the Telephone service, Postal service and all Courier/Delivery services. They are no doubt all used by nefarious characters. I've even heard politicians use them to organize increasing Taxes. Close them all.

      • Social distancing has a side benefit of preventing people from communicating face to face easily as well!

        Quick make sure there is mandatory social distancing everywhere (even in your homes) - it will prevent communications in secret, since with social distancing everywhere, you can't whisper to each other!

        • Social distancing has a side benefit of preventing people from communicating face to face easily as well!

          This is a joke, but in Franco Spain, they forbade meetings of more than a few people for any purpose because they didn't want people conspiring.

          After he died, they instituted democracy, and the mayor of Madrid encouraged everyone to go out and party as much as possible. He was a very popular mayor.

      • It's not nearly as bad as the US. I'm not even allowed to shout "Fire!" in a crowded theatre there. What sort of repressive country is that?

    • They really think they have the power to control the internet.

      Cute.

      Oh but they do have that power, specifically when it comes to communication apps which are almost universally used on a phone, universally connected to an ISP, rarely used in conjunction with a VPN, and relies heavily on network effects.

      That last part is critical. Your ability to use telegram via some workaround is irrelevant. If the person you want to talk to doesn't use it, you'll abandon it too.

      Make no mistake, it is trivially easy to kill a messaging app in a country. It's probably the easiest thing on

  • Not long till free speech dies in Europe, but not quite there yet.

    • I think common sense dies first - all over the world :P
      How actually would a country like Germany be able to block a messaging app? It is already technically impossible, so we do not even talk about legal ways/reasons.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by GuB-42 ( 2483988 )

      In general, free speech is more limited in Europe than in the US, it is not a new thing.
      As a French, I know more about French law the German law, but AFAIK, both countries have similar ideas. Examples:
      - Insulting people is illegal, insulting law enforcement agent in particular
      - Defamation is illegal, even if you are telling the truth (if presented in a way that is misleading)
      - Holocaust denial is illegal
      - Hate speech is illegal in general, especially if it is racist

      Maybe it sounds terrible to you Americans,

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

        What you describe is the legal tradition that came as a consequence of long aristocratic and royal rule system usually referred to legalistically as "privileged speech", and is an antithesis of free speech. It's about empowering aristocracy (in the word's original meaning, arestos - the excellent ones) to speak against the plebs, and disempowering plebs from speaking against the aristocracy. For example, the tradition of "truth is not defense against accusation of defamation" comes directly from tradition o

        • "truth is not defense against accusation of defamation"

          In parts of Europe, specifically germane, it actually is. Ok, not a defense against "accusation" (nothing is a defense against accusation, everybody can accuse everybody else of anything), but one against prosecution. If what you claim of another person is true, then it's not defamation.

          The difficulty is in proving it's actually true as, defamation usually targets opinion speech, which mostly is neither true nor untrue. The law has many facets there. Even so, justified opinion is usually protected, but it's

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

            The reason why I'm talking about "European tradition" rather than specific nations is because I'm attempting to address the general aspect of cultural difference between two distinctly different views. That of US style "free speech" vs European "privileged speech".

            You can certainly find specific nations in Europe where my example is wrong, in that there is an allowance for that exact example. But you will find that in that country, there are other similar examples where free speech is constrained in a simil

          • So, now I'm curious. In USA, ostensibly defamatory phrases are not permitted to be taken seriously in a defamation lawsuit if the phrase in question is a commonly used expression of profanity. It's actually legally safer to be more profane if you're expressing frustration with someone. Is there any similar exception in EU?

            • You mean like saying "Asshole!", because everybody does it?

              Europe is not homogenous, so this is obviously not true for evryoy, but in German law, the answer is "no" as far as I know. An insult is an insult. (Also, there's no such thing as an insult of a police officer or public official vs "common" insult - it's just that a police officer is more likely to drag you to court over an insult than the average bear.)

              Maybe we need to differentiate between defamation and insult: "You're a son of a a bitch" is obvi

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

      In most of Europe, concept of free speech is not the same concept as free speech in US tradition.

      In our tradition, it's what you would call "privileged speech". I.e. some speech is privileged to be free, whereas others is not privileged and therefore banned. It's why many governments can openly persecute people who say "all [minority members] are evil" and cannot persecute people who say "all [majority members] are evil".

  • I take it this means the governments can't crack telegram, so they need an excuse to get rid of it.

  • Switch to decentralized alternatives, like cwtch [cwtch.im] *before* they start shutting them down.

  • "Shutting Telegram"?

    You're the worst editor. Truly. I've yet to see you even fix a single typo in any of your headlines or summaries.

  • thanks for letting us know what the “last resort” is. i suspect the “last resort” will be resorted to in short order. apparently there is no alternative.

  • From the article:

    The messaging service has come under increased criticism as right-wing extremists turn to the platform to organize demonstrations against the government’s pandemic policies, some of which have turned violent. Authorities are investigating alleged death threats made over Telegram against Manuela Schwesig, the state premier of Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania

    Death threats are obviously not okay, but they're a ubiquitous problem for high-profile policy makers, and can just as well be made by graffiti or dropping off a letter. Would Germany nix their entire postal system because of anonymous threats made by mail? I don't think so. Seems like this is more about shutting down protests of government policies.

    Meanwhile, each iteration of these efforts by companies, institutions, and governments to shape discourse is resulting in more shielded and ins

    • I am not agreeing nor disagreeing, but what I see from Switzerland, which shares the language, is that the German speakers in Europe are much more "affected" by nonsense claims than French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese or Dutch speakers. This reflects clearly in the vaccination rates (Germany, German speaking part of Switzerland, Austria). I have German colleagues with PhD degrees who are suspicious of the scientific aspects around Corona - note, I'm not saying critical of government countermeasures, that's

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by fazig ( 2909523 )
        Germany has the largest population of any individual EU country. The strongest economy. And you can arguably say the largest political pull.
        It makes sense to me that the German population is targeted by propaganda accordingly. The effects on Austria and the German speaking parts of Switzerland might be just side effects because they happen to speak basically the same language and are thus highly susceptible to that material.

        How much of a role Telegram plays there I have no idea. From personal experiences

    • > And whatever technology replaces Telegram, if it is killed, will not solve the problem

      True. Just remember, while the summary says 'Germany' will close Telegram it is in fact a thought among parts of the government and politicians often are not on the fore front of having experience with internet. Angela Merkel famously remarked the internet was Neuland (virgin territory) in the 2010s.

      That old form popular in usenet times comes to mind, a form with checkboxes at lines like:
      "Your suggestion will

  • There is no European tradition of free speech worthy of mention (which is why bolting for the Colonies was once a solution and remains so to some extent) but the economic benefits of secure comms are necessary in a world permeated by nation-state threats performing industrial espionage which is far more potentially damaging than a few political cranks (who it bears reminding will get little traction unless the ruling class wreck the economy). Kill secure comms and you open the MAJORITY of comms to enemy sur

  • So this'll shut down the AfD (alt-right), then? Nope. Attempted censorship will just spur them stronger. If there's one thing German guys do, they use computers. And they easily figure out ways around Germany's strict computer laws. For example, video games can't have blood, and my German friends easily find ways around this. These laws are simply annoyances.

  • Let's see if majority comments or at least majority modded up comments are saying "German government hates free speech". ... or if that sentiment is only reserved for "other" people.

  • Seems like something Putin, Xi Jinping or Trump would do. I think that a democratic government should think twice before making such threats.
  • Hi Germany. Welcome to the club. Admission is free if you're certain of your faith. If not, I recommend some big cash on my plate.
  • Why would thus be useful. Even if it's true, and really extremists (as opposed to parties that are just unpopular: they would just move to a different platform. Meanwhile, you've punished a site, and innocent users, for no reason.

  • This is what's actually happening, ... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Qbertino ( 265505 ) <moiraNO@SPAMmodparlor.com> on Thursday January 13, 2022 @04:39AM (#62169477)

    ... as you can all imagine:

    Dimwitt politician who has no effing idea how computers let alone digital networks work, comes up with a stupid idea to make some noise and get attention. ... And make a complete fool of herself.

    The quite arguable point is, that people do get worked up about the fact that Telegram is distributed and anonymous to quite some extent while at the same time supporting very large groups and chatrooms. Nazis, Crackpots and other types thus have very effective means to gather and gain critical mass in conspiracy theories and other dangerous stuff. This actually *is* a problem IMHO and carries solid destabilizing potential, as it has people slowing move into separate realities. See Trumpists storming the US Capitol for details.

  • Seriously, Bloomberg? Please look up the meaning of "breeches". Then find that you meant to write "breaches". Shame!

  • Telegram has been shut down! Our hate group is foiled! Now we will just have to hold hands and sing kumbaya.

  • These people are a threat to freedom.

    They are not qualified to be the thought police.

  • ...the best solution to an angry, dissatisfied population (such that there are enough of them to spur angry, bitter, destructive conversations) is to COVER IT OVER and demand they stop talking.

    That always works in a democracy.

    Next you should call them stupid racists and marginalize them. Dismiss them for hiding behind their guns and bibles. Or just flat out call them white supremacists, that's dogwhistle for "you're a Nazi" these days, yes? (Because we've cheapened the words racist and Nazi by using them

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