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The Military China United States

America Races to Salvage Its Sunken F-35 Warplane - Before China Does (bbc.com) 193

"A race against time is under way for the U.S. Navy to reach one of its downed fighter jets — before the Chinese get there first," reports the BBC: The $100m (£74m) F-35C plane came down in the South China Sea after what the Navy describes as a "mishap" during take-off from the USS Carl Vinson. The jet is the Navy's newest, and crammed with classified equipment. As it is in international waters, it is technically fair game. Whoever gets there first, wins.

The prize? All the secrets behind this very expensive, leading-edge fighting force....

A U.S. salvage vessel looks to be at least 10 days away from the crash site. That's too late, says defence consultant Abi Austen, because the black box battery will die before then, making it harder to locate the aircraft. "It's vitally important the U.S. gets this back," she says. "The F-35 is basically like a flying computer. It's designed to link up other assets — what the Air Force calls 'linking sensors to shooters'."

The BBC describes the plane as the U.S. Navy's first "low observable" carrier-based aircraft, "which enables it to operate undetected in enemy airspace." And it's also "the most powerful fighter engine in the world," flying at speeds up to 1,200 mph, or Mach 1.6.

After the $100 million warplane crash-landed onto the deck of an aircraft carrier — and then tumbled into the water — images of the crash appeared on social media, reports CNN.

Thanks to Slashdot reader Thelasko for submitting the story!
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America Races to Salvage Its Sunken F-35 Warplane - Before China Does

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  • Patrol The Area (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Nothing2Chere ( 1434973 ) on Saturday January 29, 2022 @09:59PM (#62219973)
    The summary says that this plane's "crash" was off the deck of an aircraft carrier.

    Why is there a problem about recovery? Keep the carrier over the site as a deterrent against recovery from other powers.

    How hard is that? It's $100M of tech after all.

    n2ch
    • by klipclop ( 6724090 ) on Saturday January 29, 2022 @10:14PM (#62220017)
      My guess is that the plane will drift as it falls to the ocean floor. That is why they need to recover it before the black box battery dies. Since it's in china's backyard, the could send more resources to find and recover it. Then if the USA wants to get it back from the Chinese, it would likely require persuasion of the "forceful" kind.
      • Re: Patrol The Area (Score:4, Interesting)

        by 93 Escort Wagon ( 326346 ) on Saturday January 29, 2022 @10:20PM (#62220037)

        I would think our nominal ally, Taiwan, could get a salvage ship there faster than 10 days... what could go wrong?

        • And Japan, and the Philippines which are even closer. Or Australia. But it depends how deep it is in the area it went down in. Some areas are quite deep 5000+ metres. The salvage vessels would need to be quite advanced. But surely they could fly in some sort of submersible to locate the wreckage and attach a beacon that could last till the big guns arrived, so to speak. I read somewhere that in 2018 the USA recovered the wreckage of a plane from 5500 metres underwater.

      • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        No force required, the Chinese will hand the aircraft back to the US after a few weeks or months. It will come as a kit, with individual parts packaged in small boxes.

        That's how it always works when one country grabs something belonging to another.

    • by ljw1004 ( 764174 )

      Why is there a problem about recovery? Keep the carrier over the site as a deterrent against recovery from other powers.

      How would that deter other powers? If anything it'd be a signpost: "dear China, your salvage vessel can get here faster than ours, and here we've signposted the exact spot for you to make it even easier."

      Do you imagine the deterrent to be "dear unarmed Chinese salvage vessel, even though you have a right to be here under international law, we will nevertheless open fire on you if you get close"? That'd look pretty bad and open up all kinds of bad precedent.

      • They have a right to be there, but not a right to the plane. It can't be considered abandoned, the owner will actively deny permission and has commenced a recovery operation themselves, and military property is exempt anyway (all under the '89 IMO Salvage Convention China and the US are party to).
        • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

          by Gavagai80 ( 1275204 )

          The plane is within what China has always asserted to be Chinese territory. When you lose your military hardware while taking it through another country without their permission, you don't expect it back.

          Of course the USA asserts it's international waters, but shouldn't expect China to act on that basis.

          • Re:Patrol The Area (Score:4, Insightful)

            by larryjoe ( 135075 ) on Saturday January 29, 2022 @11:58PM (#62220213)

            The plane is within what China has always asserted to be Chinese territory. When you lose your military hardware while taking it through another country without their permission, you don't expect it back.

            Of course the USA asserts it's international waters, but shouldn't expect China to act on that basis.

            China forcefully claims the South China Sea. However, that assertion has never been tested. If China directly asserts its territorial claim militarily against the US, the US is likely to react militarily, which puts China in the unfamiliar situation having to put up or shut up. It's not clear if China is willing to make that decision. Backing down effectively relinquishes or at least neuters China's claims, while engaging in a hot battle forces China to risk war. The safest course of action is for China to continue to assert their territorial claims without leading to a test of those claims.

            • Not just that, countries like Cambodia, Thailand, and even the Philippines might have something to say about such a grab.

            • Re:Patrol The Area (Score:5, Informative)

              by Aviation Pete ( 252403 ) on Sunday January 30, 2022 @03:57AM (#62220525)

              China forcefully claims the South China Sea. However, that assertion has never been tested.

              Wrong. The Philippines dragged China before an international court (Permanent Court of Arbitration) in the The Hague, Netherlands, and the judges there ruled in 2015 that China's claims are baseless and invalid. See PCA case number 2013–19 which even has its own Wikipedia article [wikipedia.org]. China accepted the PCA in 1996, so there is no excuse for not accepting that ruling.

              Excerpt: China's claims to historic rights, or other sovereign rights or jurisdiction, with respect to the maritime areas of the South China Sea encompassed by the relevant part of the 'nine-dash line' are contrary to the Convention and without lawful effect to the extent that they exceed the geographic and substantive limits of China's maritime entitlements under the Convention.

              • by Potor ( 658520 )
                Indeed, it's like calling the South Atlantic the Portuguese Sea, which in fact the tried to do ... their version of the mare clausum [wikipedia.org].
              • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

                Wrong. The Philippines dragged China before an international court (Permanent Court of Arbitration) in the The Hague, Netherlands, and the judges there ruled in 2015 that China's claims are baseless and invalid. See PCA case number 2013–19 which even has its own Wikipedia article [wikipedia.org]. China accepted the PCA in 1996, so there is no excuse for not accepting that ruling.

                The key phrase is "China accepted". China can quickly and easily un-accept whenever it feels like it. What's the Philippines and the International Court going to do about it if they do? Write a strongly-worded letter? China has the muscle and the will to use it. The only power on the planet with more muscle is the USA, yet we lack the will -- and especially leadership -- to do much of anything anymore.

                The only thing keeping China in check these days is their economic interests. They would start a war

            • Perhaps you should make your self familiar with names. Especially names of parts of the ocean.
              The south Chinese sea has basically nothing to do with China, just like the Indian ocean has nothing to do with India.

              Stupid anti Chinese fear and war mongering propaganda of yours.

          • Re:Patrol The Area (Score:4, Informative)

            by belmolis ( 702863 ) <(ude.tim.mula) (ta) (resopllib)> on Sunday January 30, 2022 @12:59AM (#62220289) Homepage
            Actually, pretty much everybody other than China considers those international waters. China's grandiose claims have no foundation in international law.
            • Re:Patrol The Area (Score:4, Insightful)

              by Solandri ( 704621 ) on Sunday January 30, 2022 @07:49AM (#62220755)
              Not only that, but if you accept the method China used as the basis of those claims (building an artificial island) to be legitimate, that opens up a method to deprive China of nearly all its territorial waters. Other countries could simply build an artificial island near there in international waters, thereby establishing (according to China's own logic) an international border halfway between the new island and Chinese land. Which then allows the construction of another island right at the halfway point since (again according to China's logic) that would be part of the new island's territorial waters. That would move the border again halfway between the second island and China. Repeat with more islands until China's natural coast is ringed by a bunch of artificial islands just offshore, all claimed by other countries. And China effectively has no more territorial waters.

              China's claim based on an artificial island is a stupid can of worms nobody wants to open. Least of all China since it's circled by a whole lot of countries which would love to take away territorial waters from it.
          • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

            It doesn't really matter if it's international waters or not. The US has recovered other country's stuff from international waters before, such as Russian nuclear submarines.

            The race will be to find it. It will have drifted as it sank, although it's not all that deep there. Whoever finds it first will position ships in that area to prevent the other guys from starting a salvage operation.

      • It would be signal that the wreck isn't abandoned, meaning it isn't open for salvers to just come and take it. And even if it was abandoned, salvers do not automatically gain ownership of anything they recover. They are entitled to compensation for the recovery up to the price of the vessel and its cargo, or the price of the item recovered. And if the owner pays, they get it back. If they don't pay there is basis to keep or sell the item as payment (liens are applied to it).

  • by Ostracus ( 1354233 ) on Saturday January 29, 2022 @10:01PM (#62219975) Journal

    The jet is the Navy's newest, and crammed with classified equipment. As it is in international waters, it is technically fair game. Whoever gets there first, wins.

    Small nuclear device should take care of that problem.

    • Small nuclear device should take care of that problem.

      Yea, but the only way to be sure is from orbit.

    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward

      The jet is the Navy's newest, and crammed with classified equipment. As it is in international waters, it is technically fair game. Whoever gets there first, wins.

      Small nuclear device should take care of that problem.

      Yes, let's break international law. That'll solve things.

    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      I don't think detonating a small nuclear device off China's coast is a good idea.

    • by gtall ( 79522 )

      Ya, detonating a small nuke underwater in the S. China Sea should cause no one to complain...such as Taiwan, Japan, the Philippines, Vietnam, and the small island nations. And the ecological damage is minimal compared to the value of a single F35.

      Any more bright ideas, Einstein?

  • Déjà-vu ? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by alexhs ( 877055 ) on Saturday January 29, 2022 @10:13PM (#62220013) Homepage Journal

    There's that feeling of déjà-vu

    Replace South China sea with the Mediterranean sea, China with Russia, F-35C with F-35B, and that was the same story two months ago.

    Maybe Lockheed Martin should consider a commercial gesture and deliver a free salvaging boat for every dozen of F-35[BC].

    • Maybe Lockheed Martin should consider a commercial gesture and deliver a free salvaging boat for every dozen of F-35[BC].

      That’s all well and good, but it’s decidedly not explody enough. Maybe Lockheed Martin should give away free black box on the bottom of the ocean seeking ordinance instead? Nothing is stopping them from charging just as much and it’s good for repeat business.

  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • Or instead of a warhead, lift bags to refloat the plane. It seems like something a carrier should have on hand since it's always at risk of losing a plane, and in peacetime that will probably occur close to the carrier.

      Surely somebody in the Navy has to have considered this scenario.

      • Like most American things: the Navy is run by the lowest bidder.
        You can bet there is no ship in the whole strike group that has a "salvaging tender" or any equipment to get sunken plane up.

        According to the summary the next salvaging boat is 10 days away. Assuming a normal traveling speed of 20kts, that is more than 4000 sea miles ... so go figure.

    • You'd be surprised by what can be recovered from a bomb blasted wreck. Itâ(TM)d take a pretty big explosion to destroy or vaporise it sufficiently.

  • You'd think that for $100MM, they could put airbags in it which would keep it afloat after a crash.
    • Re:$100MM (Score:5, Funny)

      by fahrbot-bot ( 874524 ) on Saturday January 29, 2022 @11:48PM (#62220205)

      You'd think that for $100MM, they could put airbags in it which would keep it afloat after a crash.

      You're thinking of Floaties [wikipedia.org]. The Navy declined them for their F-35s as they're an extra-cost option and Lockheed only offers them in pink with sparkle ponies on them.

    • Any added weight is a liability, and so would be the compressed gas cylinder you need to inflate those bags even if it weighed nothing.

      • by msauve ( 701917 )
        > the compressed gas cylinder

        That's not how airbags work.
        • That's a way that recovery bags sometimes work. It's beneficial over a pyrotechnic device because you can control the rate of inflation.

  • The real plan: Let the Chinese find it, fool them in to thinking they won. Then kick back and watch them spend themselves in to bankruptcy on it.

  • the real issue is that the asset will "fly" underwater and so will travel some way before coming to a rest

    its not like USS Carl Vinson is a small thing that can hang around in all weather...

  • America Races to Salvage Its Sunken F-35 Warplane ...
    The prize? All the secrets behind this very expensive, leading-edge fighting force....

    Well... Very expensive anyway.

  • Is Bob Ballard available ? They use him for every plausibly deniable recovery op !
  • I'm surprised that there is no self-destruct device that could be triggered remotely. It isn't as if this problem isn't well known.
  • I'd figure that operational security would take precedence over posting pictures to social media - for exactly this reason: so that China doesn't get a head start on salvaging the plane. One or more sailors are asking for article-15s, or whatever the naval equivalent is.
  • However, the Chinese Foreign Ministry said on Thursday they were aware that a US Navy stealth fighter had crashed in the South China Sea, but "had no interests in their plane."

    "We advise [the US] to contribute more to regional peace and stability, rather than flexing force at every turn in [the South China Sea]," China's Foreign Ministry spokesperson Zhao Lijian said.

    • "We advise [the US] to contribute more to regional peace and stability, rather than flexing force at every turn in [the South China Sea]," China's Foreign Ministry spokesperson Zhao Lijian said.

      ...as they probe Taiwan's airspace with several dozen aircraft.

      • Did you know both the PRC(what the world calls China) and ROC(what the world calls Taiwan) claim all of China(mainland and Taiwan) as their territory? Did you know that ROC started out as a fascist military dictatorship that killed its own citizens?

        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik... [wikipedia.org]

        https://www.fpri.org/article/2... [fpri.org]

        • Did you know that ROC started out as a fascist military dictatorship that killed its own citizens?

          Yeah, and Australia started out as a British penal colony (nevermind the Aboriginal people, we're talking important white folks here) and now they won't let you get a visitor visa if you have even relatively minor criminal records.

          Like much the USA does on the world stage, its vociferous defense of Taiwan against "Chinese aggression" is largely for show. So the PRC considers Taiwan to be their territory, but doesn't want Taiwan's social culture or politics. The USA considers Puerto Rico to be their territ

  • I seriously doubt there is much on the plane that China hasn't already seen the specs on. So really the only benefit to china will likely be the satisfaction of beating the US to it upon which they would probably just hand it over to make the US look even worse for their panic.
    • Calling BS on"low observable" carrier-based aircraft, "which enables it to operate undetected in enemy airspace." There is a radar signature and a thermal signature. Elint. If L band radar sends a missile to the area where the plane is glowing red hot. ehoh. Maybe the F35 has to open exhaust flaps(hello radar can see you now, easy) to cool down somewhere between 2 and 20 minutes. How far can a fully laden F35 fly before design compromises give it up? As for salvage if the USA blows it up, China can spend
  • the it can signal the navy when they (finally) get there.

  • First of all, a lot of negativity towards the US, but I understand the need to get the plane back fast. You spent billions on it's development. There are inevitably weaknesses in the design. If China finds one way to detect the plane, it is of less use than an F16. Due diligence means you do all effort to recover it. At least if you take the military seriously.
    Now finding a stealth aircraft on the bottom of the ocean sounds very difficult to me, at least while it does not rust. And it is not like the US mi
    • finding a stealth aircraft on the bottom of the ocean sounds very difficult to me

      It's shielded against radar, not sonar. Even if the radar-absorbing materials have a component that does muffle sonar reports, that's just one more way to find it — look for a plane-shaped hole.

      But yeah, finding anything on the bottom of the ocean is nontrivial.

  • by buck-yar ( 164658 ) on Sunday January 30, 2022 @05:20AM (#62220609)

    China peels off the Lockheed Martin stickers to reveal "Made in China"

    Imagine the embarrassment!

  • Chile, Argentinia, Brazil, Bolivia, Colombia, Ecuador, Guayana (both) Paraguay, Peru, Suriname, Uruguay, Venezuela, Belize, Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, Panama, Mexico, Canada, Greenland, 24 Caribbean Countries - 47 plus 1.

    No, when talking about America, 47 of the 48 countries don't count. Like they simply do not exist. Cause they don't really, it's all Banana Countries, US backyard, shithole nations, "working for the Yankee dollar".

    That race is like 47 laughing and 1 swearing an

  • Big bounty awaits, worth its weight in gold; no lie.

    Hollywood can't come up with anything better

  • I always wonder when I read such news which of it is disinformation and which is true.

  • And why using a vessel that's 10 days away?

    After the $100 million warplane crash-landed onto the deck of an aircraft carrier — and then tumbled into the water

    Doesn't that mean they know exactly where the plane crashed? Not like the carrier vaporized after the crash.

  • A U.S. salvage vessel looks to be at least 10 days away from the crash site. That's too late, says defence consultant Abi Austen, because the black box battery will die before then, making it harder to locate the aircraft.

    I believe that the U.S. knows quite precisely where the USS Carl Vinson was located when the plane went over. The sinking plane would drift to the side as if went down, but the area should be quite limited - the radius a fraction of the depth.

    Also they have combat vessels located in the area with passive sonars, can they not fix the location on the bottom accurately? If you know where the plane is you don't need the pinger.

    And how well would the Chinese be able to conduct a search and salvage mission with t

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