Mark Zuckerberg and Team Considering Shutting Down Facebook and Instagram in Europe if Meta Cannot Process Europeans' Data on US Servers (cityam.com) 120
An anonymous reader shares a report: If Meta is not given the option to transfer, store and process data from its European users on US-based servers, Facebook and Instagram may be shut down across Europe, the social media giants' owner reportedly warned in its annual report. The key issue for Meta is transatlantic data transfers, regulated via the so-called Privacy Shield and other model agreements that Meta uses or used to store data from European users on American servers. The current agreements to enable data transfers are currently under heavy scrutiny in the EU. In its annual report to the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, Meta warns that if a new framework is not adopted and the company is no longer allowed to use the current model agreements "or alternatives," the company will "probably" no longer be able to offer many of its "most significant products and services," including Facebook and Instagram, in the EU, according to various media reports, including in iTWire, The Guardian newspaper and Side Line Magazine.
Sharing data between countries and regions is crucial for the provision of its services and targeted advertising, Meta stressed. Therefore, it previously used the transatlantic data transfer framework called Privacy Shield as the legal basis to carry out those data transfers. However, this treaty was annulled by the European Court of Justice in July 2020, because of data protection violations. Since then, the EU and the US did stress they are working on a new or updated version of the treaty.
Sharing data between countries and regions is crucial for the provision of its services and targeted advertising, Meta stressed. Therefore, it previously used the transatlantic data transfer framework called Privacy Shield as the legal basis to carry out those data transfers. However, this treaty was annulled by the European Court of Justice in July 2020, because of data protection violations. Since then, the EU and the US did stress they are working on a new or updated version of the treaty.
come on do it ! (Score:2, Funny)
Shut them down !
Re: (Score:1)
Th-they're just bluffing! They wouldn't exit such a huge m-market!!
Re: (Score:1)
Shut it down globally !! (Score:2)
Shut it down globally !!
Good riddance! (Score:3, Insightful)
As a European I would love to see Facebook gone...
Re: (Score:2)
As a European I would love to see Facebook gone...
The new treaty should require them to shut it down in the US as well. Why should the Europeans get all the fun?
Re: (Score:2)
I guess what I don't understand is...
Why couldn't Facebook/Meta and whatever other social media company just cut off their servers over in Europe and just still allow connections to servers in the US?
This gets into the question of how transnational are laws and what constitutes doing business in a country. The EU might argue that since FB is interacting with an EU citizen in the EU ten EU rules apply, even if the server is in the US and FB has no presence in the EU. FB could say, FU, we aren't in the EU, and ignore any fines, and then any treaties between the EU and US would determine enforcement. There are no easy solutions.
Re:Good riddance! (Score:4, Insightful)
Source: https://www-ncc-se.translate.g... [translate.goog]
And FYI: the city in the liked article is Luleå, in the north of Sweden
Re: (Score:1)
That's what I'm saying.
If they removed all the EU servers, aside from a bit of lag and performance hit, what other "problems" would they run into.
They could still sell and present ads to users no matter where the servers are located, after all this is the internet.
Re: (Score:2)
I have no doubt that someone at "meta" is running the numbers as we speak to see what it would take to spin up a project to move everything they've got a mile or two outside of an EU jurisdiction. They're probably looking at shifting equipment purchases they already had planned to a new site where they can migrate all the data and processing to, and then they can dismantle what's inside the EU and send that equipment to whatever site needed expansion to begin with - that way they can reduce the amount of a
Re: Good riddance! (Score:3)
The point, though, is that they would also be unable to sell advertising to EU companies. Who wants all those users if thereâ(TM)s nobody to pay for advertisements to them?
Re: (Score:2)
The point, though, is that they would also be unable to sell advertising to EU companies. Who wants all those users if thereâ(TM)s nobody to pay for advertisements to them?
Interesting point. They could sell the data to non-EU based companies that could use it to market to EU citizens since the neither entity is in the EU.
Re: Good riddance! (Score:2)
They could - but thatâ(TM)s a much smaller pool of companies who would be interested, and therefore profits much smaller.
Re: (Score:3)
I have no doubt that someone at "meta" is running the numbers as we speak to see what it would take to spin up a project to move everything they've got a mile or two outside of an EU jurisdiction.
Russia. Putin might even be glad to help with the data collection.
Re:Good riddance! (Score:4, Interesting)
Do people no know how anything works. Won't matter where the servers are; I mean yes to some degree it might help but generally speaking facebook can't really evade complying with EU rules and still doing their core business which is selling ads.
They are still going to be trying to sell ad buys by EU companies, who will still want to target those ads based on facebook's data gathered on EU citizens. One way or anything the EU is going to find they have jurisdiction over facebook with respect to the EU area business.
Practically speaking - 1) Facebook will either have to adapt and follow EU rules, 2) pay the fines and penalties as a cost of doing business, or 3) stop doing business there.
1) could take a lot of different forms - bifurcating the site into separate EU/US silos might be one option, or switching to some kind of subscription model where there is payment and contract with users, or any number of other things
- but...Meta def isn't giving up the EU market without a fight nor are they going to just pull all their hardware and staff out of the EU and hope they can legally outmaneuver an entire continent while still collecting revenue and servicing contracts there - Zuck and Sandberg might have their heads far enough up their arses to imagine that will work but they have enough competent people working for them to steer them in the direction of being more sensible than that if gradually. The answer is going to option 1 or option 2, perhaps some combination of them for the interim but it won't be 3 and it won't be ignore the EU, both are just silly.
Re: (Score:1)
Are you saying that EU companies cannot do business with other businesses that are offshore?
I mean, lets say FB has no servers or any physical presence in the EU.
All FB servers are for example in the US.
Is there some EU law that woul
Re: (Score:2)
I am saying that facebook will find themselves under EU jursidiction and if they somehow avoid it, it would not matter anyway because their clients (people who want to run ads in the EU) will be under EU jurisdiction.
You can't generally hire someone to do something over seas that isn't legal to do at home. You are not generally free from legal responsibility for the actions of an agent in your employee when you are instructing them to do something illegal. You may get a more favorable regulatory environmen
Re: Good riddance! (Score:2)
It has been a while since I really got into gdpr but the point is that fb wants to do business inside eu (sell ads to eu companies). If they want to do that, and they hold any days on eu citizens, they have to abide by the regs
Re: (Score:2)
The EU could escalate it a criminal matter and issue arrest warrants and extradition warrants for senior Facebook/Meta people on the jurisdictional basis that victims were in the EU.
Exactly like how the US claims jurisdiction over people outside its borders - find a tenuous claim to justify jurisdiction and then issue extradition demands to get those people into the US.
Re: Good riddance! (Score:2)
Re:Good riddance! (Score:4, Insightful)
As far as GDPR is concerned, if the data subject is an EU citizen then it doesn't matter where in the world the data processing occurs. Facebook could probably shrug it off by retreating from the EU, but that would involve more than just dumping their servers. They'd also have to dump their entire commercial presence; i.e. stop getting advertising money from all companies in the EU.
Re: (Score:2)
Exactly. The fact that Facebook gets paid in the EU is the best indication that they are doing business in the EU. And EU laws are very clear: if you process the data of people in the EU, you fall under EU legislation.
The way I read the threat is that Facebook would stop taking EU users.
On the other hand, the EU could cut the network connection to Facebook, although that would be rather extreme. (And it is weird that Facebook is basically threatening the same - one of those must be an empty threat.)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: Good riddance! (Score:3)
As others have suggested, any EU company that buys ads or otherwise does business with FB becomes an accessory to their illegal activity. If Facebook can't do business with European customers (advertisers), there is no point in supporting European users in general, even from US-based servers.
Oh, no! Anyway...
Re: (Score:1)
So, there are laws in EU, that forbid any EU based company from doing business with any company that is offshore from EU that may involve servers and data that is offshore from EU but that is gathered from EU citizens
Re: (Score:2)
Why not the US does it, I believe you can't trade with Cuba, or Julian Assange is non US citizen publish information about the US and is being extradited to the US for US crimes he committed outside the US. Sounds absurd but if you have the power you can do anything you want.
Re: (Score:3)
The EU isn't declaring that their law applies "throughout the whole world", it declares that if you deal with the data of someone in the EU (not just a citizen, anyone resident in the EU), then you fall under the rules of the GDPR. Theres a very specific link there.
It's the same basis many other countries use for a plethora of rules - check out how the IRS handles foreign banks that hold accounts for US citizens for example.
Re: (Score:1)
So, how exactly does the EU enforce such laws/rules on entities that have no physical presence in the EU?
If an entity is completely outside of the EU, then I have no clue how anything GDPR would be enforced...can you explain how that would work
Re: (Score:2)
Same way the US enforces their rules extra-judicially - places restrictions on interactions with entities not following EU rules. Issue arrest warrants for C-level people of companies who blatantly disregard the rules.
This isn't new, this isn't something the EU have started doing on their own out of the blue, its a well established thing that other countries have been doing for decades - its just that people like to act surprised and outraged here on Slashdot that the EU is holding US firms responsible for
Re: (Score:2)
How would they monetize anything? Payments from European advertisers would be blocked if Meta refused to comply with the privacy laws, along with any other revenue from Europe.
Re: (Score:2)
Sure they can, and it happens all the time. It's called "government sanctions".
The United States has a shitload of companies and entities on a list that the State Department maintains of companies and countries that you cannot to business with, if you expect to do business with the United States Government, or any bank chartered in the United States.
The EU can do the same, and that becomes problematic for Facebook real fast, but not to the same severity.
Re: (Score:2)
Of course they can. If you're in the USA try opening an account with a European gambling site, or buying something from Cuba. Virtually every government sanctions some foreign businesses somewhere.
Re: (Score:2)
> Why couldn't Facebook/Meta and whatever other social media company just cut off their servers over in Europe and just still allow connections to servers in the US?
> Sure there might be a little lag, but if the europeans are accessing sites hosted outside of the EU, they they can't have reach to bitch about what data is used and stored where, right?
They can also stop taking European advertising $$$ too.
Re: (Score:1)
Well, just because FB didn't have a physical presence in EU....what would prevent them from still taking and serving advertising there?
Unless the EU starts mandating that their companies can no longer do business with companies offshore, I don't see how anything else should change for FB.
Geez, I hate FB and can't believe I'm making arguments in their favor....
Re: Good riddance! (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
What would be the point? Facebook makes money from advertising, so if they closed down their European subsidiaries they would be allowing Europeans to use their service while also being unable to monetize them very much. US advertisers aren't that interested in Europeans.
Re: (Score:2)
You are missing government sanctions. Government has the ability to make third parties that require government license to do government's dirty work for them. Example: banks. If you want to use a bank, basically anywhere, you need to play by the rules because banks want to do business in the EU, even if they are US-based.
Could you imagine JP Morgan Chase going to bat for Facebook if the EU decides that banks doing business with Facebook are not allowed to do business in the EU, due to Facebook's flagrant
Re: (Score:2)
Its almost certain there is already a law or legal framework for holding you responsible for inducing someone to do whatever you are legally unable to do but they theoretically can because they are outside the EU with regard to EU privacy laws such as GDPR. If someone such an obvious loop hole escaped the laws drafting I have little doubt it would be more than a year or three before the law is amended and loop hole closed.
It would just end up working like this -
So Bayerische Motoren Werke AG - you contracte
Re: (Score:2)
Then just don't use it.
The thing I don't get is why this is an issue. I am fully aware of the privacy concerns.
However if I contact a company, and ask for an account, and they say "you can have an account, under these conditions, and they include sending stuff between different countries", I don't get the problem.
Also if I'm in one country, and I'm friends with someone in another country, isn't it obvious that some of our data is going to have to get copied between the countries?
Like how do you do an instag
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:3)
Consumer protection laws exist specifically because there are some rights that consumers should not be allowed to give up for the sake of the greater good - when you give up your information, you may give up some information about me (if tell them you're a friend of me, then you've told them I'm a friend of you for a very simple example, but the point is that some information you consider is "yours" is also "ours")
Because you cannot do anything in a vacuum, these laws exist because the compromise of not all
Re: (Score:2)
And nothing of value is lost. (Score:2)
As an inhabitant of Earth who lives in a (near as it matters) civilized society I would love to see Facebook gone.
Re: (Score:3)
A shutdown of both facebook and Instagram would be a huge boon to the psychological health of EU citizens. Please continue.
Again? (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
Indeed. Seems That Slashdot is again Duping a lot lately.
At least at times the editors pretend to look at posts from the last day to spot dupes, but lately again they have not even bothered with that.
Re: Again? (Score:2)
Itâ(TM)s either:
1. Not enough news available, so hit the replay button on the hottest conversation topic.
2. Replay whatever political/anti-business/pro-business rhetoric the big money is paying to replay.
The dupes are not an accident.
Re: (Score:2)
Of course. The first time he was telling the Europeans, and the second time his American shareholders. Damn that time difference.
Re: (Score:2)
Maybe it really only counts if he says it three times.
You know, like Beetlejuice?
Meanwhile (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
Discourse is down, politics has taken over, Slashdot no longer knocks websites offline... common man, bitching about crap editors is the only thing we have left of the old Slashdot. Don't take that from us too.
That's just 'cause we're getting old (Score:2)
I didn't care about politics until my mid 30s when I started to notice how much it impacted my life. As I learned more about how it affects pretty much everything it became a focus of my posts.
Getting old sucks. I miss being a dumb kid who didn't know any better. Ignorance === Bliss.
Call their bluff (Score:3)
We all know it's not a serious threat, so tell them to pound sand and wait for them to come crawling back.
Also, the first time this was posted hasn't even made it off the first page of the site! It's one thing if a mod posts a dupe a week or two later, but not even checking the front page first seems like the height of where lazy meets sloppy.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
We all know it's not a serious threat, so tell them to pound sand and wait for them to come crawling back.
Uh speaking of bluffing, we all know there's a hell of a lot more social media addicts outside the Facebook board room.
We'll see who comes crawling back to who.
Let me be the first to say... (Score:5, Insightful)
"And nothing of value was lost."
Re:Let me be the first to say... (Score:4, Funny)
Sorry, you were beaten by about 300 people when the same story was posted yesterday.
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Another failed troll from fuckwit extraordinaire ChrisMaple, who's obviously never been resident in Europe.
Thanks for making me feel special.
Go on. do it. (Score:1)
This isn't the threat they think it is
Google is impacted as well (Score:1)
The threat (Score:2)
The threat isn't credible, nor is it actually a threat. I very much doubt EU privacy regulators are overly concerned about whether people can access facebook and instagram. It seems like an unnecessarily bold bluff to say that in their annual report to the SEC, though.
Locating infrastructure within the EU would be expensive for them, but countless other global companies already do this.
Re: The threat (Score:4, Interesting)
Regulators may not worry, but EU parliament members do. Facebook practices are illegal in pretty much all the EU states and in most non-EU nations as well. They tolerated it because it aligned with their policies, but pretty much all of the citizens are addicted now. Nobody wants to be "the one that took Facebook away from us". It would be political suicide for them and their parties.
The importance of Facebook and the impossibility of people begin able to live without it is overblown. If Facebook pulls out of the EU and goes home to the US to sulk, dozens of alternative platforms will pop up within weeks. I'm pretty sure that however cocky 'the Zuck' pretends to be, he still remembers how quickly MySpace imploded and the thought of that happening to 'Meta' keeps him awake at night. Then there is the issue of what will happen to Facebook's stock price when they voluntarily abandon a market of 400 + million users to their competitors, considering that this https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/0... [cnbc.com] happened the first time their user base didn't grow.
Re: (Score:2)
No they are not (Score:5, Interesting)
They are not considering any such thing, they wrote a worst case option up in a financial disclosure if they can't find an efficient way to navigate some EU online privacy and data sharing rules.
There is 0% odds anyone at Meta or facebook or Instagram subsidiaries is giving any real consideration to a pull out from what is likely their second largest market. Can we stop posting this over and over, there is no there there, other than perhaps someone at Meta's legal and finance department considered there to be at least potential the EU rules have enough bite to and or complexity that their business model might not be adaptable.
Re: (Score:2)
You forget, no one's told Suckerberg that he isn't god, king, and angel of shit on this planet. He got away with blatantly lying to congress and, in the process, was visibly annoyed to even be there answering questions at all.
So while it's extraordinarily unlikely, he personally has the power (that's to say majority of voting shares) to do this if he wants to and the ego to consider it. Granted he probably thinks the EU would blink if he 'paused' FB for a week to "address new privacy policies".
I wish he w
Re: (Score:1)
> They are not considering any such thing, they wrote a worst case option up in a financial disclosure if they can't find an efficient way to navigate some EU online privacy and data sharing rules.
I hear what you're trying to say, but it's not that simple. Financial disclosures don't require you to disclose every worst case even if it's not going to happen, they only expect you to disclose worst case scenarios that you might be willing to enact.
Given Facebook could just comply with European data protecti
Re: (Score:1)
You are required to disclose foreseable risks, is the point. They cannot just 'comply' because from facebooks perspective at this time the cost of compliance / drop in revenue would make operating in the EU unprofitable.
So yes they disclose they might cease operation there because the other choice would be to disclose they could decide to continue operating there at loss with no end in sight. The investor class would like that disclosure even less, and its unrealistic because they would not actually do tha
DUPLICATE! (Score:2)
Does MSMash read slashdot at all? Or are they just a brainless idiot reposting articles that other editors have already posted?
This is the second duplicate MSMash posted that I know of in less than a week, although there's probably more...
Tease me once, shame on you (Score:2)
DO IT ! (Score:2)
'nuff said !
more lies from Zuckerberg (Score:1)
Re: (Score:1)
Zuckerberg is spinning. (Score:2)
Zuck announced Meta, and ever since Facebook's stock has been in freefall. I think the Zuck is beginning to realize that he doesn't have the MIDAS touch and is flailing trying to figure out how to stem the blood-loss. Perhaps the best thing to come out of 2022 is Zuckerberg's missteps leading to his billions being trounced into mere millions and him being left in the sorry state of only being able to afford one or two new toys this year that are outside the grasp of us mere mortals. Poor thing.
I'm no fan of facebook (Score:2)
But I do wonder sometimes if the worthies in the EU commission have any idea how the internet works. Even a simple validation check may access a server on another continent and that requires copying data there.
Also so long as the data is protected by EU law what does it matter where it physically is? Physical server locations are virtually irrelevant these days unless you're a fintech needing sub microsecond response times.
Re: (Score:2)
Location matters because the companies operate the servers in compliance with the laws where the company and it's servers operate, not where it's users are. The issue here is that the EU courts have ruled that US laws don't provide equivalent protection to EU laws and the standard contracts don't enforce compliance with EU policies so the data isn't protected by EU laws or an equivalent. FB's business model requires that it collect data on virtually all users, which requires opting out be required with sign
Wow... they've got it. (Score:1)
DO IT! DOOOOO IIIIIT! (Score:2)
Please?
Pretty please?
With sugar on top?
And a cherry?
Bluff, or something they were planning anyway? (Score:2)
As has been pointed out a million times before, the value of a social network is directly proportional to the number of people on it and available to you to connect with. I have many friends that live in Europe. Shutting down operations there makes the value proposition of Facebook here in North America just that much worse. Every time you remove a territory, it weakens your ability to keep people in any other market you operate in.
So maybe this is something they're willing to do, and if it is, that means t
Facebook pulls out... (Score:2)
...and all across the European nations they will be dancing in the streets!
Nope ... (Score:2)
The population of the EU is larger then the USA ... So really no ...
I call this Bluff: "Dumb Man's Hand" (Score:2)
And sorry there is nothing more to say, except:
- they threatend other countries -> in the end: they gave in
- their stock market value is dependending on the userbase and the wealth of that userbase
- certain disruptive investors want Mark's ass .. and well if he would pull through with his threat, that would be his death sentence and he would be booted off the company pretty quickly amid a crash of Meta stocks.
Yeah: .. except I fear the european politicians are as dumb as he thinks they are
Dumb Man's Hand
temper temper... (Score:2)
I wonder how far his temper tantrum will get him.
We KNOW the stock market will spank him
And there was much rejoicing! (Score:1)
(at least in Europe) Yeah!
Probably not true (Score:2)
But if it is, the world will be a better place for it. Now lets do twitter next, and tiktok, and whatever other such cancers are around.
Re: (Score:1)
Oh! Oh! Pick Me! Pick Me! (Score:1)
Let's require they store all US data in Europe. Magic!
Award winner! (Score:2)
Zuckerberg wins the Neil Young saber-rattler award of the month.
Good riddance (Score:1)
this surveillance/misinformation platform needs to die.
About time! (Score:2)
Okay... I'm thinking that my title can be taken in at least two ways, and that most people aren't actually going to take it the way I intend. Sure, I wouldn't mind seeing Facebook vanish from the face of the earth as their business is a cancer on society for multiple reasons, and I truly have no desire whatsoever to voice support for anything that Zuckie does... but unfortunately, I don't actually intend it that way, in this instance.
See, the European privacy laws which spawned this particular boxing match
Please shut them down in the US too!! Please! (Score:2)
No one ever stands up for Facebook... (Score:2)
It's curious, because one of the things I like about Slashdot is that it has a strong culture of freedom of expression and libertarianism generally. But whenever someone talks about banning Facebook, you're all "f*ck yeah! Facebook sucks! Let's get rid of Twitter next!"
Look, I have a long list of complaints about the *details* of how Facebook is implemented. I know their privacy practices suck. I know they have inconsistent (and sometimes nonsensical) moderation policies, I know they have this "algorithm
Good!!! (Score:1)
Shut it down in Europe! Let Europe's own replacements and competitors flourish. Eventually everyone in the world can switch to them, and Metastasizebook can finally die the death it has deserved for years
Just get on with it! (Score:1)
There is a pop-corn shortage at the moment and I am rapidly running out waiting for the $hit show to begin.
the share holders freaked out (Score:1)
the share holders freaked out when they didn't hit user growth targets imagine what will happen if they dump 400 million users.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
This is probably the best news the Ukraine will hear all day.
I hope Mark Zuckerberg makes good on this promise.
Re: (Score:2)
My first thought was whether Europe would be ready for the first-world refugee influx.
Re: (Score:2)
That influx has been happening for a while, even if it is low volume.
Re: Time to move to Europe (Score:2)
We would be, except many of us donâ(TM)t consider the US to be first world.