'High' Probability of Russian Attacks On Starlink In Ukraine, Says Musk (arstechnica.com) 108
SpaceX CEO Elon Musk yesterday warned that Starlink user terminals in Ukraine could be targeted by Russia and advised users to take precautions. Ars Technica reports: "Important warning: Starlink is the only non-Russian communications system still working in some parts of Ukraine, so probability of being targeted is high. Please use with caution," Musk tweeted. When asked for specific advice, Musk said people in Ukraine should turn Starlink on only when it's needed, place the antenna "as far away from people as possible," and "place light camouflage over [the] antenna to avoid visual detection." A thin layer of spray paint would work if there are no metal particles in the paint, he wrote. One Twitter user asked Musk if Starlink could face a cyberattack from Russia similar to the one that affected Viasat satellite service. Musk responded, "Almost all Viasat Ukraine user terminals were rendered permanently unusable by a Russian cyberattack on day of invasion, so... yes."
As previously reported, Ukraine Vice Prime Minister Mykhailo Fedorov asked Musk to activate Starlink in Ukraine shortly after Russia's invasion of the country disrupted Internet service. Musk responded in the affirmative, and two days later, Fedorov tweeted a photo of a truck full of newly arrived Starlink terminals. It's not clear exactly how many Starlink terminals are available in Ukraine, but Fedorov tweeted to Musk, "We will keep you posted as we roll out more Starlinks across the country." In another tweet, he said, "SpaceX reprioritized to cyber defense and overcoming signal jamming. Will cause slight delays in Starship and Starlink V2."
As previously reported, Ukraine Vice Prime Minister Mykhailo Fedorov asked Musk to activate Starlink in Ukraine shortly after Russia's invasion of the country disrupted Internet service. Musk responded in the affirmative, and two days later, Fedorov tweeted a photo of a truck full of newly arrived Starlink terminals. It's not clear exactly how many Starlink terminals are available in Ukraine, but Fedorov tweeted to Musk, "We will keep you posted as we roll out more Starlinks across the country." In another tweet, he said, "SpaceX reprioritized to cyber defense and overcoming signal jamming. Will cause slight delays in Starship and Starlink V2."
Re: Putin is a COWARDLY FAGGOT who poisons opposit (Score:1)
This mentality is supremely problematic. It's like saying "cows shit". Okay, we agree there is proof of this but do you have said proof? Please show me you personal collection of cow shit.
Conversely we could say Jesus was a virgin born human because virgin births do happen in nature. There is plenty of proof of this later fact even though proof of the former.
So we can only talk about statistics which are never nil. The likelihood of any given cow not shitting approaches nil, just as the likelihood of a huma
Who was that referring to? (Score:2)
Are you sure there is any mentality there in the ACs?
And I think some of the ACs are just encouraged by propagating vacuous Subjects. "No one knows it was me who completely 'dominated' that discussion with MY Subject." (Yeah, assuming there is an entity with a mind there, and I've already questioned that assumption.)
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When the circumstancial evidence is consistant and avail in such abundance, you can assume a fakt without direct proof.
I mean do you, yourself doubt that V. Putin does act harsh on opposition?
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Well if you’re passing laws that make being gay illegal, you’re probably having some impure thoughts of your very own.
Makes sense (Score:3)
Just run a very long cable to the terminal. If putin's forces triangulate and bomb, they will waste arms shelling and empty field. Actually they will destroy that antenna, but it is a much more acceptable loss.
Or do one better, run a wireless repeater at that point, and use a directional antenna at your own location. Slow internet is better than no internet.
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As an aside, I keep marvelling as a ham radio guy how many people, including other hams, do not comprehend the concept of radio silence. It is basic strategy and tactics for over a century! Low Probability of Detection / Intercept is the extension of this that a lot of money & thinking has been poured into over the decades (and isn't just for radar).
Spread Spectrum was one of the first tech to try to send a signal without being spotted, but as much of today's broad-band tech actually requires it to wo
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I wonder if SpaceX couldn't implement for Ukraine some kind of LPI mode in the dish firmware.
They already did exactly that. There's a new low-power mode that also allows the dish to be powered from a car lighter's socket. Prior to that update the startup and operating power use usually tripped most car lighter fuses.
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Prior to that update the startup and operating power use usually tripped most car lighter fuses.
Most of them are at 15A, so let's just call it 12V and say over 180W. Yowza. IIRC the final design wound up with a cheap phased array with one axis of motor steering so most of that has to be RF...
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Thanks for the numbers.
Cigarette lighter socket circuits are typically pathetic in every way. Might be not just more convenient but actually wise to run a dedicated circuit. XT30 or Anderson Powerpole connectors would be cheap and way better than that lighter socket crap, too.
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I wonder if SpaceX couldn't implement for Ukraine some kind of LPI mode in the dish firmware. Like, sacrifice uplink bandwidth for decreased probability of detection? Admittedly this is where a phased array fails. A parabolic dish would suppress side emissions much better.
I have defeated beam based radio direction finding before by modulating the power with low frequency flicker noise, but I suspect that an anti-radiation missile would be too sophisticated to be deceived by that.
Other methods for LPI require greater changes which the existing hardware is unlikely to support like coherent detection of a much wider spread spectrum signal.
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As an aside, you make a very good point, but maybe citizen twit-head running around on a battlefield should perhaps understand one thing; when your country is being invaded, perhaps now is not a good time to worry about internet service. Put down your phone, and pick up a fucking gun.
The Internet potentially provides an intelligence distribution facility undreamt of by previous generations of resistance fighters for finding out where the invader is, what they are doing, and what they are equipped with.
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As an aside, you make a very good point, but maybe citizen twit-head running around on a battlefield should perhaps understand one thing; when your country is being invaded, perhaps now is not a good time to worry about internet service. Put down your phone, and pick up a fucking gun.
The Internet potentially provides an intelligence distribution facility undreamt of by previous generations of resistance fighters for finding out where the invader is, what they are doing, and what they are equipped with.
Kind of amazed how Tick-Tok is used in this regard. Though seriously wondering why the Russian's haven't been able to take down the cell networks though. Humm you know what, maybe they did. Cut the power to the city, the towers still have at least a few days battery power.
What really gets me though is how unplanned this whole invasion was. For all the yelling Putin did on TV AND being former KGB, he would have people in the communications sector ready to cut comms the second the invasion happened. Hel
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That's what some are turning to. [csmonitor.com]
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maybe citizen twit-head running around on a battlefield should perhaps understand one thing; when your country is being invaded, perhaps now is not a good time to worry about internet service. Put down your phone, and pick up a fucking gun.
Shut the fuck up, Ivan. Intelligence is critical to make sure that civilian resisters aren't wasting their lives firing at irrelevant assets, and everyone knows it, and therefore that you are talking spectacularly ignorant bullshit.
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You assume Ivan appreciates the utility of intelligence data. Which part of this invasion makes you think Russia actually bothers to collect or use intelligence?
At least hacks are less likely to say things like "military intelligence is an oxymoron" for the next few years.
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I assume the Ukranians appreciate having communications so they know where to focus resistance and relief efforts, and that anyone who says otherwise is at best a spectacular idiot and quite possibly engaging in deliberate misinformation.
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They can, but if you're throwing a $300k anti-radiation missile against a $500 Starlink terminal, that's probably not a winning strategy in the long term.
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Mesh networking? (Score:2)
Camouflage helps (Score:3)
There are a few things people could do to camouflage their antennas: a few light coats of paint, patterned contact paper, shelf paper, lightweight fabric, place it next to a few other round objects like garbage can lids, set a pizza box over it, pretty much anything with a low moisture content to help it blend it.
Musk also wrote that mobile roaming [has been] enabled, so [the] phased array antenna can maintain signal while on [a] moving vehicle. It sounds like keeping these mounted on a mobile platform would also keep them from being destroyed as easily, but they would be a little harder to disguise. Perhaps in the back of a truck with a thin tarp over the back would keep them out of sight.
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Musk also wrote that mobile roaming [has been] enabled, so [the] phased array antenna can maintain signal while on [a] moving vehicle.
If he'd do that here in the US, I'd sign up immediately. That would be a killer feature.
Re:Camouflage helps (Score:4, Funny)
Someone already betatested this, apparently... California Highway Patrol tickets driver with apparent SpaceX Starlink dish bolted to car hood [cnbc.com]
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Someone already betatested this, apparently... California Highway Patrol tickets driver with apparent SpaceX Starlink dish bolted to car hood [cnbc.com]
(Starlink) "Yes, you can mount it anywhere."
*mounts antenna directly in front of the windshield*
(Cali Dude) "Meh, who needs to see when they drive."
And we thought Florida Man was dumb? I wish I could make this shit up. Thanks for sharing. I think.
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(Cali Dude) "Meh, who needs to see when they drive."
And we thought Florida Man was dumb? I wish I could make this shit up.
In fact he said he only needs to see when he is driving ahead, not when he is turning right. So it's OK.
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Thanks. I needed that extra laugh after reading that shit in TFA.
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They're very liberal out there so they only turn left
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There are a few things people could do to camouflage their antennas: a few light coats of paint, patterned contact paper, shelf paper, lightweight fabric, place it next to a few other round objects like garbage can lids, set a pizza box over it, pretty much anything with a low moisture content to help it blend it.
Do you think they'll be looking for it visually or detecting the radio waves it emits?
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Do you think they'll be looking for it visually or detecting the radio waves it emits?
Apparently Russia doesn't have a lot of missiles anymore, so it's indeed likely that they would get a visual confirmation first.
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Russia is starting to look like a 3rd rate military these days, it brings into question most of their claims to Western civilization technology
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Any day now, we're going to find out that this whole grand drama was just Finland manipulating Russia into expending all their resources, for the upcoming invasion to take back territory lost in the Winter War.
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There are a few things people could do to camouflage their antennas: a few light coats of paint, patterned contact paper, shelf paper, lightweight fabric, place it next to a few other round objects like garbage can lids, set a pizza box over it, pretty much anything with a low moisture content to help it blend it.
Do you think they'll be looking for it visually or detecting the radio waves it emits?
If Russia decided not to use an anti-radiation missile after detecting it, then visual identification would be desired before further action, and I sure would not want to be on the receiving end of a raid intended to capture prisoners.
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Just place the antenna on the roof of a building. You'd not be able to tell them apart from the sea of dishes and antenna that are typical of both eastern and southern European countries.
"Big" ego, says Musk (Score:2)
Referring to his need to insert himself into things when something is really happening.
I wonder when he will start to call Putin or somebody else names.
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I wonder when he will start to call Putin or somebody else names.
You mean names like "crooked", "sleepy", "rocket man"...?
The big question .. (Score:2)
who the hell does not do name calling to Putin?
Biden had "ok'ed" the taking of the separatist regions, instead Putin tries to get into the whole Ukraine and fuels the hatered towards russia by orders of magnitude, extends his military forces, faces sanktions, and fertilizes the ukrainian soil by blood of russian soldiers.
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At least on this occasion his contribution can actually be useful.
There goes my hero. (Score:2)
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Putin? yes putin == pedo
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Musk is seizing this chance to pose as a hero and to inflate his self-importance. He must be loving this situation.
Just like any self-important cretin...
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Sure, because _anybody_ can enable a region with satellite coverage
Re:"Big" ego, says Musk (Score:5, Insightful)
Referring to his need to insert himself into things when something is really happening.
Per TFS and prior slashdot story, Navalny literally explicitly asked Musk to activate Starlink.
I wonder when he will start to call Putin or somebody else names.
Yeah, "pedo guy" was the moment I fell out of geek love with Musk. But let's not pretend that this doesn't completely validate the concept of Starlink providing alternate communications in crisis situations, or that it's not a good thing. Would he have done it if it wasn't good PR? Maybe, maybe not. Probably not, even. But let's not shit on him for it. There will surely be some good reason to do so soon enough.
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Yeah, "pedo guy" was the moment I fell out of geek love with Musk.
Well, that was the moment I realized he is a cretin. I never had any "geek love" for him. I mean he is not an engineer or scientist, just a business person with delusions that got very lucky.
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Good lord, it must be hard on you to not be able to admire grotty humans, what with their simple faults and all
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Yeah, "pedo guy" was the moment I fell out of geek love with Musk.
Well, that was the moment I realized he is a cretin. I never had any "geek love" for him. I mean he is not an engineer or scientist, just a business person with delusions that got very lucky.
Yeah, the NASA geniuses are not doing reusable rockets because they're too easy for them.
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Musk had no involvement in any design phase of any product, vehicle, launcher, satellite, or anything more complicated than the "brand statement". He is a marketer.
Exactly. A BS in Physics qualifies you for almost nothing and certainly not for designing actual advanced technology. His other degree is a BS in some business thing. He is not even capable enough to have made it to an Master's degree. He got lucky with the money, that is all.
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Musk had no involvement in any design phase of any product, vehicle, launcher, satellite, or anything more complicated than the "brand statement". He is a marketer.
If you read the Ashlee Vance's warts-and-all biography of Musk, then you will realise that your dismissal of Musk's intellect and abilities is unfounded.
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Yeah, the NASA geniuses are not doing reusable rockets because they're too easy for them.
NASA is a government bureaucracy. That comes with some advantages, but generally it comes at a huge price.
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I never had any "geek love" for [Elon Muak]. I mean he is not an engineer or scientist, just a business person with delusions that got very lucky.
If you read Ashlee Vance's warts-and-all biography of Musk, you will discover that Musk has a double degree in Physics and Economics, and that he has taken an active role in designing and engineering activities in both Tesla and SpaceX.
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I never had any "geek love" for [Elon Muak]. I mean he is not an engineer or scientist, just a business person with delusions that got very lucky.
If you read Ashlee Vance's warts-and-all biography of Musk, you will discover that Musk has a double degree in Physics and Economics, and that he has taken an active role in designing and engineering activities in both Tesla and SpaceX.
I know what degrees he has. They are on his wikipedia page. His supposed "active role" is not on the engineering side. He cannot do that. His "double degree" (sounds impressive, doesn't it?) is on the very lowest level you can have and does not include any engineering. On that level it is pretty easy to get these. All they do is to allow him to somewhat understand the actual experts. That Tesla and SpaceX designs work is a clear indicator that Musk has made no important contributions at all on the engineeri
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His "double degree" (sounds impressive, doesn't it?) is on the very lowest level you can have and does not include any engineering. On that level it is pretty easy to get these. All they do is to allow him to somewhat understand the actual experts.
Being able to understand the experts and willing to listen to them puts him ahead of the majority of people with piles of money. It doesn't make him a good person, nor a genius, but it does make him effective — obviously. His money has accomplished what nobody else's money has accomplished recently (if we want to put it honestly, and not give him the credit) so clearly there's something there.
I think the man is an ass, but I also want to see him continue to drive space development. I wish we could hav
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I never had any "geek love" for [Elon Muak]. I mean he is not an engineer or scientist, just a business person with delusions that got very lucky.
If you read Ashlee Vance's warts-and-all biography of Musk, you will discover that Musk has a double degree in Physics and Economics, and that he has taken an active role in designing and engineering activities in both Tesla and SpaceX.
I know what degrees he has. They are on his wikipedia page. His supposed "active role" is not on the engineering side. He cannot do that. His "double degree" (sounds impressive, doesn't it?) is on the very lowest level you can have and does not include any engineering. On that level it is pretty easy to get these. All they do is to allow him to somewhat understand the actual experts. That Tesla and SpaceX designs work is a clear indicator that Musk has made no important contributions at all on the engineering side.
It does not matter what Musk's "active role" is supposed to be, there are lots of anecdotes (supplied by people other than Musk) in his biography that indicate he has repeatedly placed an active engineering role. If you would read the biography I mentioned then you would know this.
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Re: "Big" ego, says Musk (Score:2)
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Only the "Super-Het" design. You can do traditional designs for short-wave. You can also simply shield that Super-Het well, something that is done _anyways_ or it can cause interference with other systems.
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Only the "Super-Het" design. You can do traditional designs for short-wave. You can also simply shield that Super-Het well, something that is done _anyways_ or it can cause interference with other systems.
Local oscillator leakage is only reduced to the point where it meets FCC part 15 requirements or similar, but the level is still too low to track from any significant distance. A couple of times during transmitter hunts, I tracked the transmitter's local oscillator while it was in receive mode so that I did not have to wait for the transmitter to come back on, but that was at 100s of yards at most with a gain antenna. Once the hiders of the transmitters figured out what I was doing, it became routine to c
Why is India testing brahmos missiles at this time (Score:2)
Meantime someone in India decided this is the right time to test some Brahmos Missiles !
Astrologically auspicious time I guess.
Or maybe all 25,000 Indians in ukraine/russia are back so now the govt feels free to so anything.
The way 5-6 senior Ministers went to ukraine overnight and brought back stranded Indians was a bit unprecedented.
Specially Air India as well as Air Force C17s flying around in Ukraine Ru airspace when either side could have shot them down by mistake or to create more confusion. Like the
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Geostationary is far better (Score:2)
A parabolic dish will have far less lateral emission to begin with, but you could put the dish in a barrel too and line the sides with microwave absorber for relatively little cost. That's going to be a very weak source when you aren't in the line of sight of the dish.
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You still would have to setup the dish though to maintain line of sight with the satellite though, or am I missing something?
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As I understand it, since Starlink satellites are in a low orbit and basically whizzing around all over the place (in aggregate, especially compared to geosync), you can just point the antenna kinda anywhere vaguely upwards.
In theory, as long as there's open sky to point at, there will always be at least 1 or 2 satellites within the antenna's "field of view" and within communications range, simply due to how many there are/will be in orbit. Since they're supposed to have a really good hand-off protocol as
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Yes, but a geostationary satellite is stationary. The dish only needs a very small stationary view cone. You can pull tricks to minimize scattering in other directions which would be infeasible with a phased array aiming antenna for LEO satellites, which needs to see far more of the sky.
A phased array might not scatter too much from an efficiency point of view, but a couple percent is more than enough for an adversarial detector even if it's irrelevant for efficiency.
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yes, that will not work
the receiver needs a wide horizon to pick up and drop satellites as the cross the sky
it is the same reason that satellite phones suck on canyons and large cities
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Geostationary satellites don't cross the sky, that's why they are better for covert communication, you can engineer a structure with a stationary small view cone and very little scatter.
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Art of Deception (Score:1)
Patton had a ghost army made of fake equipment in southern England before the Normandy invasion which did not draw fire because it was in safe England, but did hint at another landing area.. BTW 40% of the Bataan death march survived the w
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Putin has revealed that Russia is fielding a third rate army
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Just cover it with a cardboard box. (Score:2)
Set it out in a yard, and cover it with a box. or a blanket.
It's not a big device.
Cellular internet is still working over there. (Score:2)
I have a good friend in Ukraine and I have been in regular contact with him though facebook messenger since the invasion began. He's not personally involved with fighting, just trying to hunker down and take care of his family. But the internet is working over there fine.
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My friends in and around Kyiv are all online too (when they aren't patrolling the streets). Same goes for Kharkiv.
What's really needed, reportedly, are:
Decoys? (Score:3)
It is amazing to me how many postings on this topic there are without mentioning the possibility of decoys. There are a lot of cheap devices you can program to look like an intermittent Starlink base station to a radiation seeking finder (either handheld or on a missile) and they can be battery powered. You can scatter thousands around your operating area.
Then it is just a matter of updating the software to keep ahead of the enemy's detection improvements. But the real base stations will be safe enough as long as they aren't high duty cycle.
No power (Score:2)
The Russians have taken over one of the main power plants in the country and I imagine will take over more. Then just flip the switch and send the country into darkness...
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Dear Chinese (Score:2)
Starlink Advert ... (Score:2)
Mobile internet is apparently working fine in Ukraine, Starlink terminals are very few and while useful are not required .... ...Elon inserting himself into a crisis again ...
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Elon inserting himself into a crisis again ...
After he was asked to by Ukraine Vice Prime Minister Mykhailo Fedorov. It's right in the article, for the love of pete.
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I think you are supposed to self castrate, put on a hood and wait for the next comet to come by