Russian Troops' Tendency to Talk on Unsecured Lines is Proving Costly (sfgate.com) 263
The Washington Post reports Russian troops in Ukraine "have relied, with surprising frequency, on unsecured communication devices such as smartphones and push-to-talk radios."
But this is leaving Russia's units "vulnerable to targeting...further underscoring the command-and-control deficiencies that have come to define Moscow's month-long invasion, observers say." The Russian military possesses modern equipment capable of secure transmission, but troops on the battlefield have reached for simpler-to-use but less-secure lines because of uneven discipline across the ranks, an apparent lack of planning for conducting a sustained fight over long distances, and Russian attacks on Ukraine's communication infrastructure that it, too, has relied on, experts say.
A European intelligence official, speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss NATO's battlefield assessments, said that since the invasion began in late-February, there have been multiple instances of Russian commanders confiscating their subordinates' personal phones for fear they would unwittingly give away a unit's location.... There is evidence that the United States and other NATO countries have provided Ukrainian forces with electronic warfare equipment capable of interrupting Russian transmissions and allowing them to target Russian command posts, said Kostas Tigkos, a Russian military expert at the defense analysis firm Janes Group. By destroying Russia's communication nodes, the Ukrainians could pressure their adversaries to use less-secure equipment, he said, increasing the likelihood their conversations will be intercepted or their positions triangulated....
There is anecdotal evidence that Russia's unsecured communications have led to battlefield losses. One Russian general was purportedly killed in an airstrike after his cellphone was detected by the Ukrainians, the New York Times reported earlier this month.
The Post reports that Russian military transmissions over unsecured lines are now even being listened to by amateur radio enthusiasts at online sites like WebSDR (a software-defined radio receiver connected to the internet).
"Don't say the last names on air!" one Russian service member was apparently overheard saying by Shadow Break International, a U.K.-based open-source intelligence consultancy.
But this is leaving Russia's units "vulnerable to targeting...further underscoring the command-and-control deficiencies that have come to define Moscow's month-long invasion, observers say." The Russian military possesses modern equipment capable of secure transmission, but troops on the battlefield have reached for simpler-to-use but less-secure lines because of uneven discipline across the ranks, an apparent lack of planning for conducting a sustained fight over long distances, and Russian attacks on Ukraine's communication infrastructure that it, too, has relied on, experts say.
A European intelligence official, speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss NATO's battlefield assessments, said that since the invasion began in late-February, there have been multiple instances of Russian commanders confiscating their subordinates' personal phones for fear they would unwittingly give away a unit's location.... There is evidence that the United States and other NATO countries have provided Ukrainian forces with electronic warfare equipment capable of interrupting Russian transmissions and allowing them to target Russian command posts, said Kostas Tigkos, a Russian military expert at the defense analysis firm Janes Group. By destroying Russia's communication nodes, the Ukrainians could pressure their adversaries to use less-secure equipment, he said, increasing the likelihood their conversations will be intercepted or their positions triangulated....
There is anecdotal evidence that Russia's unsecured communications have led to battlefield losses. One Russian general was purportedly killed in an airstrike after his cellphone was detected by the Ukrainians, the New York Times reported earlier this month.
The Post reports that Russian military transmissions over unsecured lines are now even being listened to by amateur radio enthusiasts at online sites like WebSDR (a software-defined radio receiver connected to the internet).
"Don't say the last names on air!" one Russian service member was apparently overheard saying by Shadow Break International, a U.K.-based open-source intelligence consultancy.
Instagram stories with geolocalization enabled... (Score:2)
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I saw something horrible the other day. One of the news stations in a school, mentioned that it was being used for making uniforms and supplies for troops.
Like, holy shit dude, you probably just got that school hit with a missile. Hopefully one of the Ukranian higher ups saw that in time and cleared the place out.,
Re: Instagram stories with geolocalization enabled (Score:4, Insightful)
We need to be very skeptical with this kind of information now: there's a heavy information war occurring right now
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We need to be very skeptical with this kind of information now: there's a heavy information war occurring right now
Always good to be very skeptical about anything in the news, but ultimately Russia invaded Ukraine, which has resulted in deaths and serious economic issues for both sides. Call me simple, but the rest of it is fairly unimportant details right now. I wish Russia had taken all of that money put into the invasion, and put it toward being productive instead.
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I wish Russia had taken all of that money put into the invasion, and put it toward being productive instead.
Buuuu ... but, Russian National pride has been injured?!?! ... It must be avenged!!!
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I can understand why you are confused. Being unable to separate fact from fiction that a 10 year old can figure out would tend to confuse you.
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There were plenty of diplomatic alternatives for Russia. The diplomacy that was tried [cnbc.com] was too little and completely ineffective. It's been clear to the US since at least December that Russia intended to jump straight to military conflict rather trying to pressure the Ukraine and West through trade sanctions.
Re: Instagram stories with geolocalization enable (Score:2)
https://www.defense.gov/News/N... [defense.gov]
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Did you just wake up from a coma?
Russia has been inciting a "separatist" war in Donbas for 8 years now after completely taking over Crimea.
Crimea wasn't enough, Donbas is not enough, even Ukraine is not enough when putin has an itch to recreate the Soviet Union
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Did you just wake up from a coma?
Russia has been inciting a "separatist" war in Donbas for 8 years now after completely taking over Crimea.
Crimea wasn't enough, Donbas is not enough, even Ukraine is not enough when putin has an itch to recreate the Soviet Union
Political fanatics tend to have selective memory. They'll only remember what fits their narrative. For Trumpkins, remembering that Putin has been slowly annexing territory all over Eurasia with complete impunity and nobody has done a thing to stop him including their, God Emperor does not fit into their narrative of "BRANDON BAD!!".
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Bullshit. The Biden administration merely stopped holding up military aid that had already been in the pipeline before the former alleged president got his knickers in a twist over demanding Ukraine help him dig up dirt on Biden's son. Ukraine had been asking for weapons even before Crimea. After Crimea and the eastern provinces were stolen, how confused could you possibly be over the Great Putini's real objectives?
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Yeah, the US pulled a lot of ex-Soviet nations into NATO because for decades we assumed Russia would try to invade. We were caught with our pants down when Crimea was invaded, unable to formulate a coherent response. Russia had the freaking gall to try the same thing again, and you blame Biden that we were ready for it? Nuts.
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I think you may have overlooked the word "probably" in GP's post. It wasn't a claim of fact but a prediction.
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It's worth noting here that it doesn't matter if the school was making uniforms, or whether the claims were originally made by Russian information warfare specialists. All it takes is for a commander in the field, with all the fog of war and the mistrust of communications, to believe it is true. The school then becomes targeted.
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That is also true. There are many possibilities, we lack the sort of information it would take to give them sensible probabilities, and we don't exactly have the greatest reason to trust those who do have the information it would take. Which, of course, is the entire essence of information warfare against the general populace.
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It is plausible this is a cock-up to bomb a school. They should still be held responsible for a war they initiated and the innocent people that have been harmed by it.
Ukraine is going to be Russia's version of Vietnam. An unpopular war that serves no purpose and it seems likely that Ukraine can maintain guerrilla warfare indefinitely and grind Russian morale down. Russia couldn't fight the Mujahideen in Afghanistan, and that force was less well trained and had far fewer members. The US and NATO allies will
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Similarly, they may be setting up air defenses on the approaches to the school and preparing to take down any attack at facility they may already have decided that they do not need
That said, I usually attribute the actions of new crews to immediate idiocy
Re: Instagram stories with geolocalization enable (Score:2)
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When told that even the Russians acknowledge their are bombing Maripol, this is https://slashdot.org/comments.... [slashdot.org]">you trying to deny facts.
And then you even try to suggest the real cause was not a bombing but the Ukranians were storing munitions [slashdot.org] in an unhardened building . . . for no reason at all.
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As opposed to the Russians deliberately bombing schools [cbsnews.com] which were clearly marked or deliberately bombing a maternity hospital [cnn.com] with pregnant women [cnn.com].
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Those nasty Ukraine Nazis, conscripting newborns to fight against the rightful rulers if Ukraine.
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It's been going on since radio was first widely used in warfare. For example, during WW2 both the Axis and Allied forces had problems with people using insecure comms, or even thwarting encryption. People often chose predictable phrases for their messages (known plaintext attack), for example.
I get the technology aspect here (Score:2)
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Indeed, and don't blab about whatever advantages the defenders may have while they're still relevant.
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Do you think the Russians aren't aware that using plaintext communications channels is a bad idea in a war? They know they shouldn't be using open channels. They are not failing to use encryption because they haven't thought about it yet; they are failing to use encryption because the organisation of the invasion was utterly shambolic. Now they are paying for it in human lives.
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Yes and know. Certainly the higher ups know about encryption and know understand its necessity but may be for lack of preparedness being forced to chose between having open comms and no comms.
Its been a (pleasant) surprise to see what a shit show this has been. I like many others believed the Russian's has a fairly well drilled professional army even if the infantry was largely shorter term draftees; but its proven to be amateur hour for the most part. Given the other clearly lacking discipline and obvious
Re: I get the technology aspect here (Score:2)
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You mean the Afghan retreat "negotiated" by the former alleged U.S. president?
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Do you think the Russians aren't aware that using plaintext communications channels is a bad idea in a war?
That's what they get for picking Google Hangouts as their preferred communications channel.
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Of course they do. That doesn't mean they necessarily have a good handle on how much its actually affecting them.
Re: I get the technology aspect here (Score:2)
Russians demolished the whole country, more than 3 mil refugees and somehow according to keyboard warriors they are "failing" because they are sending sms to whoever?
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Russians demolished the whole country, more than 3 mil refugees and somehow according to keyboard warriors they are "failing" because they are sending sms to whoever?
They are considered to be failing because the Russians are a vastly larger force, the invasion was over a month ago and yet the battle rages on and Ukraine has not surrendered - Is not even close to surrendering. Hell, Russia hasn't even captured Ukraine's major cities.
...and when Russia is finally "victorious" - Thanks to chemical weapon
Re: I get the technology aspect here (Score:2)
Assuming of course they win⦠at the moment at least itâ(TM)s a stalemate, or the Russians are getting pushed back.
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What are you smoking?
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What defensive position? NATO is strictly a defensive organization. Unlike Russia, is has no intent to attack anyone. In fact, the only reason NATO exists is because of Russia attacking its neighbors.
they will no longer have to worry about Ukraine rising to be a big new competitor in the oil and gas market of Europe.
What? Ukraine was 26th in the world for natural gas production whereas Russia wa
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NATO is strictly a defensive organization. Unlike Russia, is has no intent to attack anyone. In fact, the only reason NATO exists is because of Russia attacking its neighbors.
Yeah, this is something people frequently lose sight of in the whole geopolitics thing, when they complain about how NATO is really the anti-Russia league. Well yes, no fucking shit. Maybe if Russia's entire history wasn't them invading their neighbors repeatedly until it conquered all of them and built an empire that treated humans worse than most civilized countries treat animals, NATO wouldn't exist.
Ukraine was 26th in the world for natural gas production whereas Russia was number 2 in the world. To claim Ukraine was a competitor is pure bullshit.
They aren't now, but they're a potential competitor because Ukraine has "the second biggest known gas rese [harvard.edu]
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Cool - so when did it become okay to be a German again and why exactly? I mean historically speaking I know how to find the dates; but the point is there is as little continuity between the Russian regimes that did these things and the current German government and the old King of Prussia's.
There is no reason to pretend NATO isn't an anti-Russian league, it is. Saying its strickly for defense is all well and good too, except that is cold comfort if you are Russia. If I followed you around with my gun dra
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the point is there is as little continuity between the Russian regimes that did these things and the current German government and the old King of Prussia's.
That's irrelevant because Russia is still in the same location, so it still has the same problems, and opportunities to solve them. Their physical condition gives continuity.
There is no reason to pretend NATO isn't an anti-Russian league, it is. Saying its strickly for defense is all well and good too, except that is cold comfort if you are Russia.
The existence of NATO is even colder comfort if you are Ukraine, and not a member of it. Russia is the problem here, the historical aggressor who still has all the same reasons to engage in aggression.
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NATO is strictly a defensive organization- hahahahahaha, I have some nice oceanfront property here in Nebraska... CHEAP!!
Perhaps you could share with us your extensive list of NATO's offensive military actions and countries invaded?
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Just off the top of my head: Yugo Slavia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libia - all of which were zero direct threat to NATO.
Get your facts straight. NATO attacked Afghanistan AFTER a NATO member (the USA) was attacked from forces based in Afghanistan, and Afghanistan refused to surrender those forces.
The first Iraq war was not NATO - It was a coalition of 35 nations that included many countries not in NATO.
The second Iraq war was an American initiative, not a NATO initiative. Many NATO members refused to pa
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They will have an consider themselves to be in a better defensive position from NATO than before
The only thing Russia will have demonstrated to NATO is how inept Russia's military really is, and how easily NATO could roll over them if a NATO member nation was attacked.
I mean for God's sake, Russia invaded Ukraine over a month ago and Russia doesn't even have air superiority or secure communications.
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I don't think it had anything to do with NATO. That was merely the red herring the Russkies threw out there to claim it was all NATO's fault and they were only reacting. Rather, the Great Putini thought he'd make his dick look bigger if he stole an entire country rather than nibbling off bits and bobs of it. He didn't figure the NATO countries would actually stand up to him. He really failed to consider the Baltics and Poland and Romania figured they couldn't trust Russia further than they could spit a two-
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>They don't care. They will have an consider themselves to be in a better defensive position from NATO than before
How could that possibly be, since this brought NATO, the EU and most other non aligned d countries together against Russia. Before, it was assumed that despite the fascism and corruption Russia was on a path to non violent existence with the rest of the world. Not so much the case now. How is that a better defensive position? To have more troops on your borders and more countries spendin
Re: I get the technology aspect here (Score:2)
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They are failing. Killing people and breaking stuff isn't the goal of an invasion. It's what happens when they go poorly.
Re: I get the technology aspect here (Score:2)
No, invasions are usually carried out by grannies with bags on a black friday..
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That's as much propaganda as everything else being reported though. Russia has not 'demolished the whole county' they have demolished a few neighborhoods in handful of cities. Which is not to in any way suggest its not a regrettable and tragic loss of life and property but mostly they have one long and badly managed supply line according the maps I see and don't really 'control' much new territory at all.
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At wrecking a country the Russians have been wonderfully successful. At being able to achieve even the most modest goals of that invasion they have not exactly overwhelmed everyone with their tactical and strategic brilliance. We've been down this road before, such as the invasion of Iraq and the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, and heck even the British operations in Northern Ireland. Being able to shoot the enemy, blow up their infrastructure and gain at least theoretical control of territory is only half
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It's not like the Russians are too stupid to realize they shouldn't be transmitting sensitive information over insecure channels. The reasons that they continue to do this even after getting pasted as a result aren't things they can fix in the middle of a war.
Some of them they can't fix without changing the nature of their regime.
Russians have been unable develop a functional NCO corps because the leadership fears the autonomy this would give small military units. Their army is designed to stop functioning
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It's part of the information warfare. Making Russian soldiers appear incompetent is not only good for clicks, it could have a real morale impact on what little Western news slips into Russia these days.
Works beyond just listening in (Score:2)
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There was another article that I read that stated that Ukrainians were doing just that. Transmitting false orders, telling troops to surrender, or just playing annoying music over the Russian communication channels. Imagine a Russian general trying to order his troops into position only to have the channel flooded with "Never Gonna Give You Up" or "Baby Shark."
Re: Works beyond just listening in (Score:2)
Rick Astley is innocent (Score:2)
Despite similarities in the levels of irritation caused, he did not write Baby Shark.
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This clip from 1917 [youtu.be] seems appropriate. "I hoped today might be a good day. Hope is a dangerous thing. That's it for now and in the next week command will send a different message: attack at dawn. There is only one way this war ends - Last Man Standing."
Better safe than sorry (Score:2)
At the same time, military analysts have cautioned against making sweeping generalizations of the Russians' communication performance. Some units, they say, may be better equipped and disciplined than others.
So far, Russia still possess more missiles and artillery and people than Ukraine.
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Mobilization and supply lines are the classic problem, well studied by military historians. It's obviously a big deal for Russia right now. If they can overcome these missteps they can put their superior force to effective use.
If not, then it doesn't matter how many tanks you have if everything is in disarray. Supplies aren't arriving consistently. Fuel tanks are empty. Soldiers are deserting. I don't think Russia is quite to that point yet, but the trajectory so far is clear.
My prediction is that Ukraine w
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>My prediction is that Ukraine will fall but Russia will only have barely managed it
What are you basing this on? From the armchair it appears that the systemic failures of the Russian war machine exposed by the invasion go well beyond fixing on the battlefield.
For every major city "taken" by the Russians there will be guerrilla warfare with Ukraniains fucking up their shit right and left all over the country. With the West continuing to supply military, financial, and humanitarian aid it doesn't look g
On the other hand... (Score:2)
They probably got a pretty good deal buying these baofeng walkie talkies off alibaba if they bought 100.000 of them, possibly talked them down to 10-12 dollars a piece from $20.
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They must have. AES-encrypted radios aren't exactly that hard to find. I guess if you submit a PO for some of these [kenwood.com], but by some off-the-shelf Baofeng and pocket the difference, then 3. Profit!
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I was watching an interview with a retired US Army quartermaster auditor, and he said exactly this in reference to the vehicles used for the invasion
Simply buying cheaper tires and pocketing the difference explains most of the logistical problems the Russians have faced
Hard lesson for leadership is that when a country is run by criminals,. the army operates the same way and is not as effective as it could be
Re: On the other hand... (Score:2)
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A $20 million MLRS system was sidelined for less than $10k in tires
it really is shocking
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https://www.goodreads.com/quot... [goodreads.com]
Amazing incompetence (Score:2)
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Re: Amazing incompetence (Score:2)
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But guess what the Russian military did at the start of the invasion: they targeted and destroyed Ukraine's 3G/4G cell phone network rendering their own system useless.
At the same time though we're being told that they're losing Generals because they're using ordinary cell phones with local SIM cards and they can't do that if they've blown up all the towers, either. Also, nothing technically prevents them bringing their own cells with them. They also allegedly haven't managed to build a pipeline to bring fuel to the front. All their failures are supposedly ones of infrastructure. Didn't these assholes literally write the book on warfare in this territory? They used to hol
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At the same time though we're being told that they're losing Generals because they're using ordinary cell phones with local SIM cards and they can't do that if they've blown up all the towers, either.
My guess is that it is not all towers have been destroyed but strategic ones that the army would have needed. This article [datacenterdynamics.com] also details that some stingray devices have been deployed but Russia may not have enough of them. Stingrays take over a cell tower's function but are controlled by the military so they can eavesdrop.
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Soviet style command posts are a beehive of radio activity. As such, the presence of a general is broadcasted by the volume of traffic, even if the said traffic is completely secured.
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Not Gulf 1 (Score:2)
Even if I were to ascribe that to faulty memories, the dates do not line up. Gulf 1 occurred August 2, 1990 – February 28, 1991. In 1999 the Benefon Esc! was developed as the first mobile phone with GPS available to the commercial sector.
What do you mean "Tendency"? (Score:2)
Not just strategic communications. The Navajo code talkers, directing the forward field officers directing air support for tactical field operations is also part of standard curriculum for all infantry/cavalry officers.
If they still res
Re: What do you mean "Tendency"? (Score:2)
Whatâ(TM)s crazy is that they donâ(TM)t seem to be fixing their issues. The allies didnâ(TM)t save all kinds of ships because it would tell the Germans that enigma had been cracked, and theyâ(TM)d fix it. Somehow, the Russians canâ(TM)t figure out fixing it.
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Somehow, the Russians canÃ(TM)t figure out fixing it.
Which is mind-boggling, right? I mean we've all been told that the Russians spent their education money on math, so where are the great Russian cryptosystems? Supposedly one of their fancy communications vehicles has been captured and is heading to the USA for analysis, but what are we going to learn from it anyway? How not to build a communications network? They're already getting generals blown up because they're not using it.
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Russians would too, if they could.
But they are not because they could not.
The alternative to not using unencrypted cell phones is to send a written note carried by Captain Louis Nolan on a horseback...
At least they should have remembered the Navajo code talkers. Forward infantry officers were directing artillery fire using open unsecured radio during the Pacific Islands campaign. But each observation officer had
Fixed in 3..2...1... (Score:3)
And the West's tendency to post everything.in the open is just telling them what they are doing wrong.
Honestly, wouldn't it have been better if everyone had just kept their mouth shut about this, so that it could continue to be exploited?
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Yeah, who knew letting high level military use cheap cell phones in a war could ever be a problem...
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And the West's tendency to post everything.in the open is just telling them what they are doing wrong.
Honestly, wouldn't it have been better if everyone had just kept their mouth shut about this, so that it could continue to be exploited?
You are assuming that they are stupid. They are not stupid. We do not know for sure what is going on, this is all supposition. We have an idea, but the true facts? No one knows. Not yet. This is all basically noise.
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This "information war" could be even more important than the shooting one. ... missiles dry up, the Ukrainians will get swamped.
Ukraine is able to close the roads and deny Russians their cities (and their skies) only as long as they can reliably attack every plane or helicopter flying and every tank or armored vehicle moving.
As soon as the sources of NLAW, Stinger, Javelin,
Also, even with the international sanctions, I think Russia could outlast Ukraine in a long, protracted war.
The help from Western govern
Re: Fixed in 3..2...1... (Score:2)
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If one captured Russian soldier is to believed some troops were not given any secure equipment even short range walkie-talkies.
If Ukrainian military intelligence is to be believed, no troops were given any secure equipment, because the Russians' expensive new comms system is insecure. What we're being told is that several Russian generals have been blown up because they were using cellphones, and not even with microcells but just using local SIM cards. There's no excuse for that unless the system doesn't work, if you can't put comms in the hands of your generals then you might as well be trying to lose. You're better off with fewer
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There's just no excuse for that if true, though I have no trouble believing it really. The Russians seem generally unprepared. Also their whole system is based on keeping the rank and file in the dark and feeding them bullshit, which is arguably true of most governments but not of most successful and effective militaries.
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Of course the Russina mililiatory *ought* to know it... but if this story has any credibility, then they obviously weren't taking it very seriously. Stories like this may have the knock-on effect of giving them an impetus to change their strategies.
Even the most brilliant chess masters can make mistakes, but in a chess game against a superior opponent, you don't let on that you know what mistakes they are making until *AFTER* the game is over.
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Of course the Russina mililiatory *ought* to know it... but if this story has any credibility, then they obviously weren't taking it very seriously. Stories like this may have the knock-on effect of giving them an impetus to change their strategies.
Why are you asserting that they are "not taking it seriously"? If you are a soldier on the front line and you've been told to do your job without the proper equipment, what are your options? 1) Do it using any means necessary including using open comms or 2) refuse to do your job until you get the proper equipment . . . in a Russian military invasion. I would assume that 2 would not end well for you.
They should use Google+ (Score:2)
a realtime map of artillery (Score:2)
This would be identical to https://www.lightningmaps.org/ [lightningmaps.org] which triangulates every lightning strike in the world in realtime - and it is
"Don't say the last names on air!" (Score:2)
brings to mind the classic Dad's Army episode:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
Truth issues (Score:2)
If you know the enemy is listening into your communications, you've every incentive to give out false information. It takes time for that information to be digested and processed, so the more false information the Russians give out, the less time the Ukrainians can spend on things that are true.
Jamming of this sort is a tried-and-tested technique and we simply don't know how much the Russians are using it. Of course, since the Russians involved have poor discipline, it is also possible they aren't using it
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Why on Earth would anyone be surprised that someone like Putin is actually a terrible leader?