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The Military

Russia's Claim To Have Used a Laser Weapon In Battle Derided As Propaganda (bbc.com) 119

Thelasko shares a report from the BBC: Yury Borisov, the deputy prime minister in charge of military development, told Russian TV that a laser prototype called Zadira was being deployed in Ukraine and had burned up a Ukrainian drone within five seconds at a distance of 5km (three miles). [...] Little is known about the Zadira laser program, but in 2017 Russian media said state nuclear corporation Rosatom had helped develop it as part of a program to create weapons based on new physical principles, news agency Reuters reported. [...] However, an official with the US Department of Defense said he had not seen "anything to corroborate reports of lasers being used" in Ukraine. Meanwhile, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky mocked the Russian claim, comparing it to the so-called "wonder weapons" that Nazi Germany claimed to be developing during World War Two. "The clearer it became that they had no chance in the war, the more propaganda there was about an amazing weapon that would be so powerful as to ensure a turning point," said Zelensky in a video address. "And so we see that in the third month of a full-scale war, Russia is trying to find its 'wonder weapon'... this all clearly shows the complete failure of the mission."

There is at least one country which has developed a laser weapon though, notes the BBC. Earlier this year, Israeli Prime Minister Naftali Bennett unveiled prototype laser-based interceptors that would use lasers to super-heat incoming drones or rockets.

"Within a year already the IDF (Israel Defense Forces) will bring into action a laser-based interception system, first experimentally, and later operationally, first in the south, then in other places," he said in a speech to Tel Aviv University's Institute for National Security Studies. "And this will enable us, as the years advance, to surround Israel with a wall of lasers which will protect us from missiles, rockets, UAVs and other threats."

The U.S. Navy also deployed the world's first active laser weapon in the Persona Gulf in 2017. "It operates in an invisible part of the electromagnetic spectrum so you don't see the beam, it doesn't make any sound, it's completely silent and it's incredibly effective at what it does," said Lt. Cale Hughes, laser weapons system officer, at the time.
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Russia's Claim To Have Used a Laser Weapon In Battle Derided As Propaganda

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  • The Duck Knows (Score:4, Informative)

    by CeresLee ( 9804688 ) on Friday May 20, 2022 @05:14AM (#62551694)
    I search this this Persona Gulf with duckduckgo and it is you mean the Persian Gulf.
    • No, it is a typo in Personna Gulf, which is filled with used razor blades. Everyone knows that laser power is assessed by firing at razor blades.
  • Russia lied? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by quonset ( 4839537 ) on Friday May 20, 2022 @05:29AM (#62551708)

    No way! Say it ain't so. Next thing you'll tell us is it was Russia's intent to turn the Moskva into a submarine.

    • Re: (Score:1, Funny)

      by Black Parrot ( 19622 )

      No way! Say it ain't so. Next thing you'll tell us is it was Russia's intent to turn the Moskva into a submarine.

      With lasers on it's head.

      Also, they're trying to lure the Ukes east to Stalingrad, so they can counterattack next winter.

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by sbrown123 ( 229895 )

      Ukraine says they lied. But Russia has been in development of such a weapon for a few years now. It being used in a battlefield situation actually isn't unlikely. They used their hypersonic missiles in combat just a few weeks back. Look at what the statement reads: they shot down a single drone after 5 seconds. That is feasible with current laser technologies as drones are generally lightweight and thus flimsy by design. The real tricky part is target tracking (have to keep it on target to a flying ve

      • by Bert64 ( 520050 )

        Also 5km is not especially long range, would they really want to deploy it that close to hostile forces and risk it being captured or destroyed?

      • Russia always lies. Enough so that it's best to assume they are lying first until it is verified. We're not at "trust but verify" phase here, we're still at "distrust and be suspicious of verification." So many of their new weapons show up in annual parades but aren't actually on the battlefield.

        • by djinn6 ( 1868030 )

          I mean, I can say the same about Ukraine. They're in a war, both sides have plenty of legitimate reasons to increase the fog of war.

          As for the possibility of these weapons existing, it's not that unlikely for them to have it, since the technology behind lasers are many decades old. The US had trouble mainly because we were trying to shoot ICBMs and warships with it, not flimsy drones. Russia's also fairly poor, but large. They can concentrate efforts towards some important goal, but it's much harder to fiel

  • Israeli Expert (Score:4, Interesting)

    by gtall ( 79522 ) on Friday May 20, 2022 @05:31AM (#62551714)

    Israel also claims to have a laser weapon for drones and other flying things. An Israeli expert was interviewed and he said it more like a microwave oven, you keep the beam on target long enough and eventually it heats up. He also says it doesn't work like the movies were you press a button and the enemy explodes. It takes at least several seconds and it is not very long range, the atmosphere gets in the way.

    • I guess more drones & missiles will be shinier from now on too.
      • What about those thermal tiles they used to stick on the space shuttle? Wouldn't need to be very thick to stop a laser for a few seconds. Anything that goes supersonic will already be pretty heat-resistant too.
    • Re: Israeli Expert (Score:4, Interesting)

      by JoeRobe ( 207552 ) on Friday May 20, 2022 @07:10AM (#62551850) Homepage

      I remember talking to a US Navy officer (I forget what rank) at some point in the early 2000's who was part of a team working on a chemical laser technology to take down ICBMs mid-launch by heating. Essentially it was trained to lock in on the fuel tank, which are always at high pressure. Once the tank wall was weakened by the laser, the pressure would do the rest and tear it apart. As I recall the real technical breakthrough for that team was to develop fast adaptive optics for the primary mirror, to handle atmospheric fluctuations while the mirror was moving to track the missile.

      The motto for the program was "get ''em while they're hot!"

      • Essentially it was trained to lock in on the fuel tank, which are always at high pressure.

        That's not how rockets work. A pressurized tank system would be so heavy, the rocket would not fly. Pressure is produced by turbo pumps.

        That said, a fuel tank is a good place to aim since it is pretty flimsy. But only during boost phase. Upon reentry go ahead and hit the tank. It's not being used any more.

        • The Minuteman missiles, at least, use solid-fuel rocket boosters, and those absolutely are under pressure during launch and will behave, well, poorly [wikipedia.org] when they've got a hole in them. Other countries probably also use solid fuel boosters: they're just more reliable and stable than liquid motors. And the long-term goal of any ABM system has always been to hit the rocket during launch: MIRV systems (especially with decoys) make it very hard to destroy them reliably during or after reentry.

          Also lots of rockets

      • by djinn6 ( 1868030 )

        Do ICBMs even have fuel tanks? IIRC most of them use solid propellant.

        • by _merlin ( 160982 )

          The DPRK supposedly still has some liquid-fueled ballistic missiles. No-one else does, though.

    • by mjwx ( 966435 )

      Israel also claims to have a laser weapon for drones and other flying things. An Israeli expert was interviewed and he said it more like a microwave oven, you keep the beam on target long enough and eventually it heats up. He also says it doesn't work like the movies were you press a button and the enemy explodes. It takes at least several seconds and it is not very long range, the atmosphere gets in the way.

      Wouldn't that be a maser?

      Lasers work largely the same way, by heating things up until something breaks or stops working. Hence they're not really an effective weapon, especially at the power levels we can produce. With drones, I suspect that a maser or laser will be meant to interfere with sensors and communications rather than outright damage and destroy. The idea being that you interfere with it's guidance enough that it crashes itself. Similar to what British Meteor pilots did to V1 flying bombs in th

  • Morale boost (Score:5, Interesting)

    by sd4f ( 1891894 ) on Friday May 20, 2022 @05:53AM (#62551740)

    Wonder weapons are invariably found to give the soldiers a reason to think that along they go and vanquish the enemy. Every military needs to convince their soldiers that they're the best trained, best equipped, and best prepared, in order to basically convince them to go out in danger and fight. I saw one recent video of some Russian pundit talking on their TV saying that the Russians are having immense difficulty, because they're fighting against Russians, that is the Ukrainian military is Russian trained, Russian equipped military, with Russian perspectives, tactics and officer training. This is probably more to push the idea that Ukraine is a contiguous part of Russia, rather than a sovereign country, but still, part of it is to convince their own grunts that they're struggling because they're equally matched,

    The point I want to make, however, is that Ukraine has effectively created an aura around several weapons with all the Saint Javelin memes and NLAWs and Bayrakter drones. Thing is, they're ordinary weapons in their arsenals, being given out, being used to kill Russian soldiers, and to some degree, exaggerated, but not crazily. The propaganda war continues on both sides, as they both need to convince their soldiers that they can win.

    • Re:Morale boost (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Ed Tice ( 3732157 ) on Friday May 20, 2022 @09:43AM (#62552092)
      In the case where two sides are relatively evenly matched, motivation can make a big difference. What we've seen in Ukraine, though, is that Russian corruption is so high that it has made the military completely ineffective. The Javelins that Ukraine has work. They aren't really any more effective than the homemade, reusable Ukrainian anti-tank weapons though.

      Most of the Russian equipment doesn't work. Their rations are expired. The tanks are poorly designed and break down often. Money for maintenance has been embezzled so their tires are half-rotted and go flat all the time. Fuel has been stolen so they don't have enough. You can hide those things from the top brass, but not from the guys who are getting killed in exorbitant numbers.

      • by GuB-42 ( 2483988 )

        It is also that Russia is attacking and Ukraine is defending.

        Ukrainians have a really good reason to fight, if they don't fight, they simply won't be Ukrainian anymore. Russians are just given orders, and I am sure that quite a few of them are asking themselves why they are there. All soldiers who are not completely brain dead will ask themselves why they are killing people just like them at some point and the army can't brainwash their soldiers so much that they become complete idiots.

        And of course, Ukrain

        • Given how badly the Russians are doing in combat, it's pretty fair to say that Russia absolutely sucks and is totally incompetent. You listed many advantages that Ukraine has. But that was well known to everybody (including Russia) before the invasion and should have been taken into account in their combat plans.

          We all saw the satellite images of the Russian convoy that was forty miles long and not advancing. The only thing amazing to me is that Ukraine didn't eliminate every single vehicle in the con

          • Part of the problem I think is that Putin has too much direct control. He splits up the command to limit chances of a coup as well so different parts of the military aren't talking to each other much, or with intelligence units. And Putin was convinced of his own lies that he thought it was easy. Like Bush Junior believing too much in the Iraqis saying it would be easy to take the country; Putin was being misled by the rebels in eastern Donbas that all true Ukrainians love Russia and want to become Russia

            • I heard today that Putin is now making tactical decisions. A guy with no military background. That isn't going to end well. The number of problems that Russia is having is so many that none of us can list them all.
      • Re:Morale boost (Score:5, Insightful)

        by sd4f ( 1891894 ) on Friday May 20, 2022 @10:37AM (#62552242)

        I agree with what you say, and I'd only add that it's valuable to consider what happened in 2014, where Ukraine lost Crimea without firing a shot in anger. The reason I bring this is up is because the heavily promoted axiom around the world was that Russia has a first rate military. At the beginning of the war, it was very touchy as to whether Ukraine would be able to hold it all together. Clearly, the morale boosts worked, and they managed to create their war narrative and that is keeping them going. As soon as it became clear that they can kill Russians, and keep killing Russians, and start turning them back, that instils in their minds that this is a war they can win, and worth fighting for.

        The tragedy for Russia is, had they not been tested militarily, the perception of their superior military might would have remained.

        • I agree with everything you've said as well. To be complete, we should also point out that things changed dramatically since 2014. Ukraine has been preparing. In addition to foreign military aid, Ukraine's own weapons development has been pretty impressive. They have reusable anti-tank weapons that cost about $20k/shot vs $200k/shot for disposable Javelins. They also developed the Neptune 2 missiles that sunk the Moskova. And also let's not forget they acquired a ton of the Turkish drones that they've
          • Right, Ukraine had been fighting in Donbas the entire time, and they knew that Russia would eventually invade to try to resolve the standoff or to take more land. This is precisely why Zelenskyy was asking Trump for more Javelins.

    • by Bert64 ( 520050 )

      Yes the Ukrainians were trained and equipped as part of the USSR, so they have received similar training and equipment to the Russians.

      But in addition to that, most Ukrainians can understand Russian while most Russians cannot understand Ukrainian.

      And many of the Ukrainians have also received additional equipment and training from the west, which the Russians do not have. So while the Ukrainians are familiar with Russian training and tactics, the Russians may not be so familiar with what Ukrainians are doing

    • Except in the first weeks it was obvious that these conscripts were out of their depth and had poor morale. Many thought they were just having exercises when they moved to the border. Then supplies don't show up. They end up stealing cars and food, and when they meet the enemy they don't really know what to do. If this was a traing wargame then Russia would have volumes of info about where they are failing and how to improve; but since it's a real war, they fire a lot of generals (the ones not killed by U

  • You're not allowed to purposely blind personnel in war (Whereas shooting them in the face is OK, but hey). It won't take long before the Russians are trying to knock out the sights on javelins and nlaw systems, just an accident that there happened to be a squad of infantry stood near by all intently watching the same tank with the laser fitted.
    • by znrt ( 2424692 )

      You're not allowed to purposely blind personnel in war

      says who?

    • Do you think Russia cares what is legal or not? They have entire BTGs mass raping women and girls. They deliberately shell apartments and homes, deliberately target hospitals, including maternity hospitals, beat, torture and kill both civilians and soldiers, and the list goes on.

      In all honesty, I'm surprised Zelensky hasn't sent out a confidential notice to simply kill every Russian soldier the Ukrainian military comes across. It's obvious Russia will use whatever means to destory Ukraine and the only way

      • by ghoul ( 157158 )
        The story I heard was Ukrainian girls were luring Russian soldiers with sex while their boyfriends hooked up the tractors and stole the tanks.
        • I wouldn't be a bit surprised if that was going on. However, as the girls are doing it willingly, it's not rape.
          • by ghoul ( 157158 )
            Oh it becomes rape once the tank is stolen and the girl says never mind , I changed my mind.
    • by gtall ( 79522 )

      Not likely. The Javelin is a fire and forget weapon and represents a moving target. You'd need to back that up up with some sort of radar + targeting system, and you'd need shitload of radars to adequately cover the battlefield. And you need to power that radar. Running mains back to Russia isn't plausible, so you'll be needing to bring their energy supplies along with.

    • by ceoyoyo ( 59147 )

      Like the ones the US used in Iraq?

      https://military-history.fando... [fandom.com]

    • just an accident that there happened to be a squad of infantry stood near by all intently watching the same tank with the laser fitted.

      Not a military expert here. But rather than using an enormously expensive and complex weapon the can be defeated by just looking in a different direction, why not just shoot them? Leave the lasers for use in Bond movies.

  • the propaganda deriding propaganda is strong with this one.

    at least lasers are nerdy ... sort of.

    now, please tell me more about what zelenskyy or "some us official" has to say! can't wait! nerd us to oblivion!

  • by cascadingstylesheet ( 140919 ) on Friday May 20, 2022 @06:16AM (#62551772) Journal

    It's war ...

    "The ghost of Kyiv?" (turns out to be footage from a video game)

    Brave resisters on an island telling Russians to f** off, right before they were slaughtered by the barbarians? (The f** off didn't happen, and they surrendered peacefully.)

    • It's war ...

      "The ghost of Kyiv?" (turns out to be footage from a video game)

      So that seems to be some mix of propaganda / fog of war. Certainly some people in the government were playing up the urban legend but it doesn't seem to have been a coordinated disinformation campaign.

      Brave resisters on an island telling Russians to f** off, right before they were slaughtered by the barbarians? (The f** off didn't happen, and they surrendered peacefully.)

      For this one I don't see the Ukrainians having any blame. If Russia didn't tell Ukraine the outcome then how was Ukraine to know that they had been captured not killed.

      As for the "f** off" itself I haven't seen any indication that was made up.

      On the other side Russia seems to still be denying that the Ukrainia

  • by DrMrLordX ( 559371 ) on Friday May 20, 2022 @06:27AM (#62551802)

    Satellites with lasers. Russians with lasers. Pretty soon we'll have angry seabass.

  • There is even public video material of it https://youtu.be/1DXpPmpmcak?t... [youtu.be] In some aspects quite promising, in others not so much, it's clearly line of sight only. A bit of fog or smoke, even just low clouds and it's all but a big juicy target. But if used in a more advantageous situation... who says it needs to be used against only drones, what would this do to a pilots eyesight when pointed at manned aircraft? I really wouldn't want to find out from the wrong end. Also spysats, it probably doesn't take m
  • I mean,.. (Score:4, Funny)

    by h33t l4x0r ( 4107715 ) on Friday May 20, 2022 @07:16AM (#62551860)
    I use a laser in battle against my cat pretty regularly. Mostly it ends in a tie.
    • You need to get a more powerful laser, then. That peculiar smell of burnt fur in the morning... Once you get addicted to it, there's no way back.

      --
      No animals were hurt to write this comment.

  • Unless we see footage of a Russian laser attack I'm going to assume it's a guy with a laser pointer trying to attack us with a herd of cats.
  • As high powered laser beams propagate to greater distances into skies surrounding battlefields, protected places, or warships will the systems that target them make certain that targets in the background are not harmed by beams aimed at drones or missiles nearer to the laser source?

  • The reason they have not been seen, is that they have been cunningly mounted on sneaky sharks.
  • Wonder weapons to the rescue! Didn't work well last time either.
    • by hey! ( 33014 )

      You know how every profession feels the world would be better if it were run by them? Businessmen think everything should be run like a business. Engineers are sure they could do a better job than managers at organizing things.

      Authoritarianism is what you get when you put a politician in charge of *everything*. Like the Mad Hatter, who only applied "the very best butter" to his pocket watch, a authoritarian Great Leader applies his admittedly formidable political skills to every problem. Give him contro

      • There has been to date a single example of a wonder weapon being decisive in war, and its notable that was *against* an authoritarian regime.
        Sorry the Hittites didn't keep better records of how effective iron was against bronze, or how great cavalry or chariots are against infantry.
        • by hey! ( 33014 )

          So you think when they invented the chariot the soldiers *immediately* knew how to drive them in combat and the generals *immediately* knew how to use them?

          I'm not saying weapons don't make a difference. I'm saying when you're in the sh*t, creating new super weapons usually doesn't help.

  • I wonder if anyone here can do the math. From what I understand, it would take a 2kw laser about 1 second to cut a 1mm hole in 1mm steal.

    5km of distance should not pose too great a problem for similar results, but it would require incredibly accurate optics and a fairly low loss path. Otherwise, I assume it would require more power.

    So, a laser capable of causing a decent size beam, I figure 50mm would require about 2000 times as much power. So, about 40MW. Assuming steal that is 5mm thick, either 5 times th
    • by Bert64 ( 520050 )

      These small drones are not made of 1mm steel either, that same laser will do considerably more damage to a small lightweight drone made of plastic. It has even been reported that small drones made of wood and cardboard have been used in some conflicts, so a reasonably powerful laser should have no trouble setting them on fire.

      Weapons like this should be pretty effective against small recon drones, and much cheaper than firing expensive missiles at them.

  • If looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck it is most likely a duck.

    And if it openly denies being a duck, then it is a russian duck.

  • A-bombs were for propaganda purposes. It doesn't mean they weren't real. Or used.

    But the whole point was to terrorize a population with stories of how fearsome they were. Which population that is depends on the version of events you believe.

    The end of WWII happened when the USSR could swing its full focus on Japan. They did not want to be conquered by the Soviets, so they surrendered to the US. So "Russian lasers" seem about as effective as propaganda as "American a-bombs."

    • Except this "propaganda" killed thousands upon thousands of people, and left many more with horrific injuries and deformities.

        It was obvious we were showing the Soviets "yeah we have nukes, don't fuck with us", and Japan was the perfect place to do this because they are so different from us.

      • Except this "propaganda" killed thousands upon thousands of people, and left many more with horrific injuries and deformities.

        No. The actual human harm was real. The story about it was propaganda.

        That was my point. Propaganda is not about truth or falsehood. It's not required to be grounded in reality, though it can be. Propaganda is meant to convince. That's all.

  • "We used a LASER!"

      Because shooting down a drone with old fashioned guns wouldn't get the adrenaline pumping so hard.

  • Frying a drone with a laser does not seems that highly sophisticated. Why is it not already widely used?
  • The Soviet Union launched a space-based laser weapon named Polyus [wikipedia.org] on the Energia rocket back in the 80s. Unfortunately, a guidance malfunction caused the payload to fail to reach orbit. Polyus was based on an airborne laser weapons system, the Beriev A-60 [wikipedia.org] that was operationally tested.

    Russia is not the Soviet Union and has a much smaller military R&D budget. Nonetheless, if TKA could make a fieldable laser weapon in the 80s, it stands to reason Russia should be able to get one out today. The only quest

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