Senate Moves Forward With EV Tax Credit Reform (electrek.co) 220
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Electrek: The US Senate is going to move forward with a sweeping new bill after Senator Joe Manchin finally accepted to include investments to curb climate change. The new bill is going to include the long-awaited electric vehicle tax credit reform that is going to give back access to the tax credit to Tesla GM vehicles, along with other changes. Last year, the US House of Representatives passed the $1.9 trillion "Build Back Better" legislation, but it has been stuck in the divided Senate ever since. The bill is interesting to the EV community because it includes a long-needed reform to the federal tax credit for electric vehicles. Even though it is technically a small part of the overall bill, it is a point of contention.
The main goal of the reform, and the one most people agree on, is the need to eliminate the tax credit cap after automakers hit 200,000 EVs sold, since it is putting automakers that were early in pushing electric vehicles at a disadvantage. It also happens that those automakers are American automakers, like Tesla and GM, while many foreign automakers still have access to the credit. Joe Manchin, a Democrat and senior United States senator from West Virginia, has been holding his vote, which is the deciding vote since the Democrats need every single one of their votes in the Senate to pass anything. The senator, who comes from a very conservative state, has proven to be difficult to deal when it comes to initiatives that deal with climate change, but in a reversal today, he announced that he accepted a new version of the bill, now called "Inflation Reduction Act of 2022." Here are some of the key changes to the EV federal tax credit in the new bill (as confirmed by Electrek):
- Federal tax credit for EVs maintained at $7,500
- Eliminates tax credit cap after automakers hit 200,000 EVs sold, making GM and Tesla once again eligible
- The language in the bill indicates that the tax credit would be implemented at the point of sale instead of on taxes.
- In order to get the full credit, the electric vehicle needs to be assembled in North America, the majority of battery components need to come from North America, and contain a certain percentage of minerals from countries with free trade agreements with the US
- A new federal tax credit of $4,000 for used EVs
- Zero-emission vans, SUVs, and trucks with MSRPs up to $80,000 qualify
- Electric sedans priced up to $55,000 MSRP qualify
- The full EV tax credit will be available to individuals reporting adjusted gross incomes of $150,000 or less, $300,000 for joint filers
The main goal of the reform, and the one most people agree on, is the need to eliminate the tax credit cap after automakers hit 200,000 EVs sold, since it is putting automakers that were early in pushing electric vehicles at a disadvantage. It also happens that those automakers are American automakers, like Tesla and GM, while many foreign automakers still have access to the credit. Joe Manchin, a Democrat and senior United States senator from West Virginia, has been holding his vote, which is the deciding vote since the Democrats need every single one of their votes in the Senate to pass anything. The senator, who comes from a very conservative state, has proven to be difficult to deal when it comes to initiatives that deal with climate change, but in a reversal today, he announced that he accepted a new version of the bill, now called "Inflation Reduction Act of 2022." Here are some of the key changes to the EV federal tax credit in the new bill (as confirmed by Electrek):
- Federal tax credit for EVs maintained at $7,500
- Eliminates tax credit cap after automakers hit 200,000 EVs sold, making GM and Tesla once again eligible
- The language in the bill indicates that the tax credit would be implemented at the point of sale instead of on taxes.
- In order to get the full credit, the electric vehicle needs to be assembled in North America, the majority of battery components need to come from North America, and contain a certain percentage of minerals from countries with free trade agreements with the US
- A new federal tax credit of $4,000 for used EVs
- Zero-emission vans, SUVs, and trucks with MSRPs up to $80,000 qualify
- Electric sedans priced up to $55,000 MSRP qualify
- The full EV tax credit will be available to individuals reporting adjusted gross incomes of $150,000 or less, $300,000 for joint filers
Sinema? (Score:2)
Mansion has spoken, we still don't know what Cinema will do.
Re:Sinema? (Score:4, Informative)
Mansion has spoken and reverted before, so there's still uncertainty there too.
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I hope he does, I'm one of his constituents and he so callously left me out of this bill...
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Yeah but it's premature to say anything is moving forward without at least mentioning her.
50% of democrats support it, which implicitly might change
50% of democrats are undecided
The other 48 are just along for the ride.
Tax credit for used EVs (Score:5, Interesting)
That might be a game-changer.
I don't think it's enough (Score:4, Insightful)
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Be very careful when buying a used car. That does not change with an EV...
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Be very careful when buying a used car. That does not change with an EV...
The difference with an ICE vehicle is that if the engine was well maintained, it's not going to suffer any range degradation worth concerning yourself over. I made a trip from Florida to Indiana and back in my '99 vehicle (yeah, that's approximately 23 years old) and it still roughly gets the EPA mileage it was rated for.
Try doing that same trip in a BEV of the same vintage on the original battery, and I'll see you stuck somewhere on I-95 - probably still in Florida.
Re:I don't think it's enough (Score:4, Insightful)
So you're assuming the engine was well maintained, but not the battery in the EV.
Why?
Oh I get it now. To make your strawman a little bit believable.
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So you're assuming the engine was well maintained, but not the battery in the EV. Why?
Because the subject is range degradation (which is considered perfectly normal wear in a BEV), not the engine experiencing rapid unplanned disassembly.
ICE vehicles can and do have engine failures. I'm not disputing that. But what used ICE vehicles don't have is an inability to make it to the next charging station on a road trip. Hell, there's a video on YouTube of some folks who did a towing test with a brand new F150 Lightning and they almost didn't make it to the next charging station (they cut their r
Re:I don't think it's enough (Score:4, Insightful)
So, now you've changed from range degradation to towing, which granted is not something EVs are as good as ICE vehicles at, and purely worst case scenario for them. Flat out, if you need to do long distance towing, EVs aren't (yet) the way to go. But back to the original issue...range degradation...please point to any reliable source (not some random youtube) showing significant evidence of that over time.
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The towing example was to demonstrate that a degraded battery isn't even a requirement to experience range loss in a BEV. It can be a problem even in a brand new vehicle if you buy it for a use case that it is ill-suited for.
As for vehicles with degraded batteries, just go on cars.com and look up some of the long-in-the-tooth model years of the Nissan Leaf. You'll probably be surprised by the severity of range degradation. Yes, many people think "Tesla" when they want to give an example of a car where th
Re:I don't think it's enough (Score:4, Informative)
Youve picked the one EV in the Nissan leaf that had a bad design fault in that it had no battery cooling/heating. Whilst range degradation will happen, its not the big issue you are trying to paint it as, by using the worst possible example.
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The towing example was to demonstrate that a degraded battery isn't even a requirement to experience range loss in a BEV.
You get range degradation when towing in a ICEV too. So what is your point?
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For an example of this, my Tundra usually gets 400 miles to a tank, when towing ~240 miles for the scouts, I get about 200 miles range. The half range estimate is pretty good in my experience, as I go from 14.9 to 7-8 mpg when towing.
I fully expect, that when I get the Cybertruck I have reserved, it will get the same range degradation, and it does not concern me. It means that the route will have to have some planning put into it, but no different than planning a trip in an ICE, just a little more attenti
If batteries need replacement (Score:3)
I think it stands to reason there is range degradation. It's probably better with some models than others, but batteries don't last forever. I drove a 20 year old Honda for years because I was broke. I still drive an ancient car (2008) because I'm still kinda broke (thanks to the quadruple whammy of a sick family member followed by an economic crash followed b
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Sounds like a warranty issue to me. That's totally abnormal.
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A well maintained engine is possible, a well maintained battery will still degrade with charge cycles.
An electric vehicle will save you on oil maintenance, brake maintenance (though a hybrid also saves on break maintenance), usually a more reliable drivetrain (no traditional automatic transmission, no clutch, simpler, less burdened cooling system, no chamber dealing with thousands of explosions a minute, not nearly so many problematic hoses and gaskets, and generally a more gentle temperature range for comp
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The difference with an ICE vehicle is that if the engine was well maintained, it's not going to suffer any range degradation worth concerning yourself over.
You can say the same with a BEV about the battery. But the health of the battery is easier to check. Turn the car on and the available range will be displayed on the dashboard.
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Yes, BEVs do eliminate a lot of the mystery over whether or not you're about to flush several grand straight down the toilet. Hence my earlier post about the Nissan Leaf having terrible resale value.
You are unlikely to be buying an older generation Leaf new now. I'd be impressed if you could do it. So it's no longer an issue.
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The difference with an ICE vehicle is that if the engine was well maintained
"if"
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The solution is the same either way. Buy CPO if you can. And if there's a credit for used vehicles, it makes that more viable.
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What is "CPO"?
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Certified pre-owned, through a dealer. If you're buying from a private party then you're on your own.
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What BEV did you have in mind that was manufactured in 1999?
Obviously, some waiting will be required. Today's showroom-fresh Chevy Bolt EV will eventually be tomorrow's Buy-Here-Pay-Here special at Crazy Joe's Pre-owned Cars.
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Before all this Covid car pricing craziness happened, you couldn't give used Nissan Leafs away. Due to the lack of any real battery cooling (they're ostensibly "air cooled", but it's a bit of a misnomer - there is no forced air cooling system), the batteries have a very short usable lifespan. After a few years, the cars have severely degraded range.
The prices on used Leafs have gone up considerably, but I think that's just market irrationality in play.
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Have you never heard of anyone buying an ICE car and then having to pay for an engine rebuild immediately? You need to do due diligence and it's much easier on EVs.
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I just saw a story about a woman who bought a used EV for 11 Grand only to find out it needs a $15,000 battery. It's not always that bad but certain models are basically scrap when the battery goes.
Proving what, exactly?
I can find any number of stories about second-hand ICE cars that were complete duds and/or needed a whole new engine.
Yeah, it turns out the first Nissan Leafs had crap batteries. These days we have cars shipping with "million mile" batteries and the latest research is talking about 4 million mile batteries.
https://www.google.com/search?... [google.com]
https://www.snopes.com/fact-ch... [snopes.com]
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Cool story bro!
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That might be a game-changer.
During the Obama administration, somehow there was a tax credit for "solar air conditioning", even though such a thing existed only in the minds of politicians. So naturally, fly-by-night companies sprung up attaching fake solar collectors to otherwise off-the-shelf air conditioners as a tax credit scam. I'm sure the used car market will find a way to be equally as creative.
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During the Obama administration, somehow there was a tax credit for "solar air conditioning", even though such a thing existed only in the minds of politicians.
That and the fact you can and could buy such systems?
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The EV revolution is here. Every major car company is selling them now. Some are shutting down their traditional car lines.
The tax credit might speed things up, but at this point, all government has to do is not get in the way of EVs.
Re:Tax credit for used EVs (Score:5, Insightful)
The only thing the tax credit can do at this time is inflate demand which already outstrips supply. That just means more ADM on EVs and higher prices. Government stuffing money in to a supply constrained market does nothing but create inflation. The demand already exists. Manufacturers are already doing what they can to increase production. The choke point is still mineral extraction for batteries. This does nothing to help that as it's more constrained by environmental regulations (a lot of NIMBY environmentalism as the same environmentalists against domestic extraction are pushing for more EVs and are perfectly content with foreign suppliers with lax environmental and worker protection being suppliers) than anything else. This is nothing more than virtual signaling with tax payer's money and will hurt (inflated prices) more than it will help.
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There's still the problem with mass construction of charging systems outside the home for people.
SO many people rent apartments that have vast parking lots with no charging stations (and not likely to have them put in any time soon), in addition to houses rented, that ofte
Re:Tax credit for used EVs (Score:4, Interesting)
How the hell is that supposed to work?
Alice buys a Model 3 for $35k (lol) - $7k = $28k
Alice sells it to Bob after 3 years for for $20k - $4k = $16k
Bob sells it to Charlie immediately for $16k - $4k
Charlie sells it to Bob...
Also, fuck this part:
- Zero-emission vans, SUVs, and trucks with MSRPs up to $80,000 qualify
- Electric sedans priced up to $55,000 MSRP qualify
They just can't help themselves, can they? Just have to keep encouraging more giant death machines.
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First, how the ____ does at bill who's sole and only listed investments are ... ... ends up named as inflation reduction when none of the investments increase supply at all?
1) Energy Security and Climate Change / 369 billion***
2) Affordable Care Act Extension / 64 billion**
And how the ______ does "revenue raised" from... ... not contri
1) 15% Corporate Minimum Tax - 313 billion*
2) Prescription Drug Pricing Reform - 288 billion**
3) IRS Tax Enforcement - 124 billion**
4) Carried Interest Loophole - 14 billion*
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I feel sad for all Americans that are economically illiterate, which are the vast majority of the democratic voting base.
https://people.com/politics/re... [people.com]
Rep. Lauren Boebert Calls Separation of Church and State 'Junk,' Says Church Should Direct Government
Thoughts and prayers for the economy then.
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> Alice buys a Model 3 for $35k (lol) - $7k = $28k
Setting aside the fact that Teslas haven't qualified for rebates for a long time now...
The credit goes to the buyer, not the seller, so Alice selling her car for $20K would get $20K, Bob would pay $20K, and get $4K in tax deductions... so he can reduce his federal taxes by the lesser of $4K or as much as he owes, depending on how the law is written.
Frankly this is not a great idea. The EV Tax Credit is supposed to be a mechanism to encourage sales of *new
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Yeah I think this whole thing is well intentioned but poorly implemented. All doing things like extending the credit to everyone does is put money in the pockets of the OEMs, not the car buyers.
That is - you don't get cheaper products by using everyone's money to give some people money. You get cheaper products by letting those products be expensive, encouraging more competition.
The different limits for "SUVs" and "Sedans" is a questionable arbitrary provision as well.
It's not "unfair" that GM and Tesla a
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Why it does not incentivize more production really. About the only thing it does is maybe take away a little reservation potential buyers of new EVs (the buyers that justify the production) about resale value. However given the demand for EVs is currently above supply - this does exactly nothing, as far as adoption.
Basically its a subsidy for used car buyers - which might be fair because the general policy trying to kill off the ICE-ecosystem is certainly going to hurt the resale value of most ICE cars and
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I think I'd need to see some documentation on that. The US national average of well-to-wheel CO2 emissions for ICE vs. BEV is about 3:1. It depends greatly upon where the electricity is sourced though. For a state like WV, where 90% of their electricity comes from coal, BEVs come out only slightly ahead, but still ahead.
Drilling for and shipping oil around the world also generates CO2. Disposing of ICE cars also generates CO2. I don't know if it's 1:1 with BEVs, and I think you are correct in that we still
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Yes. As someone who just bought a used EV I'm very excited about this. I'm hoping it's retroactive to the tax year.
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That might be a game-changer.
I'll say... it's a credit, not a deduction... is it per vehicle, or per tax yer? ...
I'll buy 5 crappy used EVs for $4k each, and my dad does, too. We park them on my wife's family's land (free).
Every year, we sell them all to each other and get $20k tax credits!
profit!
Re:Tax credit for used EVs (Score:5, Insightful)
Pay for the tax credit by adding tax on gasoline and you'll speed up things.
Yeah, you'll speed up things like the automation of every unskilled labor job, because those folks won't be able to afford gas to get to work.
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Pay for the tax credit by adding tax on gasoline and you'll speed up things.
Higher gasoline taxes are a political non-starter as long as the majority drive ICEs.
One nice thing about the war in Ukraine is that it jacked up gasoline prices in a way that the politicians can blame on someone else.
But tax incentives for EVs are kinda silly when demand far exceeds supply.
Disclaimer: I got a nice tax incentive on my EV, but I would've bought it anyway.
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At this point, I have no interest in getting an EV.
There simply aren't that many public charging stations locally, nor on the routes I drive to visit family, etc out of state.
And on top of that, they're pretty much all family sedan type styles.
If they'd put out a 2 seater sports car version, in the ballpark range price of a current Vette, I'd then b
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There simply aren't that many public charging stations locally, nor on the routes I drive to visit family, etc out of state.
There aren't? What route is that exactly?
https://www.plugshare.com/ [plugshare.com]
https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/... [energy.gov]
https://chargehub.com/en/charg... [chargehub.com]
Are you not in the continental US?
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Hmm... I didn't know that my pending Ford Escape PHEV is a family sedan. Most people think of EV's as pure electric, but the tax credits extend to hybrids with plug-in capability and large enough batteries for it to be useful as well.
Like the Onion article says (Score:5, Funny)
Biden Social Spending Bill Whittled Down To $10 Billion Check To Joe Manchin [theonion.com].
what about use of road tax (Score:3, Informative)
Re: what about use of road tax (Score:5, Informative)
Has tax has dropped by 60%+ since it was last set (50% due to inflation and then significant MPG improvements), it seems to me the government is already resigned to funding highways in other ways.
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Washington State already has an extra $150 registration fee on EVs to cover that. Also if the EV is heavier than a gas car it will end up at a higher weight fee as well. The cut off is 4000 lbs.
It's a state issue, other states do different things.
What we really need is a core charge on EV batteries. Then they are more likely to be recycled.
Re:what about use of road tax (Score:5, Insightful)
What we really need is a core charge on EV batteries. Then they are more likely to be recycled.
The most popular Tesla battery pack contains 7,104 individual 18650 li-ion batteries. There is already an existing recycle program for li-ion batteries and companies are working to make the recovery of rare-earth metals in them more cost effective. In some cases, people are using previously-used automotive battery packs for home powerwall backup systems.
If you think a core charge is necessary, take a walk through Lowes, Home Depot, Menards, Tractor Supply, etc and look at all the power tools and yard tools being sold with li-ion batteries. And how about vaping devices, cell phones, tablets, laptops, E-Bikes, electric toothbrushes, hoverboards, scooters, and Ring doorbells?
Li-ion batteries are everywhere and I agree a recycling program is a good thing. Targeting BEVs for a core charge wouldn't be helpful to increase recycling of the millions of batteries already being sold annually.
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That cannot be true because Tesla sells far more Model 3s and Ys than Ss and Xs and neither the 3 nor the Y use 18650 cells.
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Good point. My information on battery type was a bit dated for the S and X, but they are still mostly Li-ion. They are only slowly moving to the newer Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP).
Tesla's first battery option is Nickel Cobalt Aluminum (NCA). The company started using NCA battery chemistry years ago in the form of 18650 cells, which were produced by Panasonic for the Model S and Model X. Tesla also uses cells with the same chemistry in the Model 3 and Model Y, though the size is different: 2170 cells, which are larger and more energy-dense than the 18650 cells.
Today, 2170 cells with NCA chemistry are used in all dual-motor Model 3 and Y vehicles. The current Model S and X still use NCA chemistry, though they're also still using the 18650 cells. Tesla battery chemistries explained [insideevs.com]
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You've never used a battery powered drill/driver or impact? Cause I'm never hauling extension cords or air lines around again.
I honestly can't wait till we get a bit better replacements for gas powered push mowers, weed eaters, etc. Cause those are messy (mixing gas and oil for the weed eaters, dealing with gas and oil on the mowers), hard to start (Most of my relatives can't actually start those things cause the pull is so hard, and you have to do it for so long while fiddling with choke etc, and IDK how l
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Been using cordless drills forever and they are great. Weed eater is cordless and lasts maybe 15-20 minutes but I have two batteries so it's not a big deal.
I have a little 10" electric chainsaw that is perfect for brush trimming and the battery seems to last for hours of intermittent use.
I see more and more battery powered mowers around. I am just waiting for an excuse to buy one as I have all the same complaints that you do about using my gas powered mower. I just worry that it will be heavier than my curr
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The electric mowers with cords are pretty good too, and light. Of course if your lawn is too big then it's painful, but quality extension cords are still cheaper than the battery.
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\
I honestly can't wait till we get a bit better replacements for gas powered push mowers, weed eaters, etc. Cause those are messy (mixing gas and oil for the weed eaters, dealing with gas and oil on the mowers), hard to start (Most of my relatives can't actually start those things cause the pull is so hard, and you have to do it for so long while fiddling with choke etc, and IDK how long my shoulders will stand it either) etc. Battery / electric I just plug it in, and I flip a switch and it goes. So much easier. And quieter.
I bought a Greenworks mower several years ago and it was the best investment ever. Runs for an hour on a single charge and the same battery works in the weed eater. No more old gasoline or gummed up carbs. I keep the battery pack stored indoors for longevity reasons. You're right about the noise level it's so much easier on the ears. The mower is every bit as powerful as it's gasoline equivalent. Mowed over foot tall weeds with the mulching blade and not even a struggle.
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I'm all for moving to electric, but the reason your small internal combustion engines get hard to start is because the carburetors used in those engines aren't designed for ethanol-blended gasoline and will eventually gum up, resulting in them being very difficult or impossible to start. Replace
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EV's do more damage cause they usually are 1000-2000lb's heavier then their gas counter part
What? I'm going to need some figures on that. While EVs do have a big battery, their drivetrain is massively simplified and weighs next to nothing compared to a gas powered vehicle. I mean the base model Chevy Bolt has a curb weight of 3,580 pounds (1,625 kg) and a comparable base model Chevy Malibu has a curb weight of 3,135 pounds (1,422 kg).
I mean, I have no idea what vehicles you are comparing and what you are calling "gas counter part" [sic] for EVs. Which a lot of them do not have counterparts. B
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Got news for ya... The battery pack in a Tesla weighs 1400lbs. Each wheel motor is 300 lbs, so you have a 1700 Lb drive train.
I swapped out a blown 63 chevy pick up truck engine, V8, back in '87 and it weighed "only" 750 Lbs (so said the freight label). The three speed manual transmission was a bit over 100lbs.
A BEV is quite a bit heavier than an ICE vehicle of the same class.
Re:what about use of road tax (Score:4, Insightful)
Most use a much heavier automatic transmission.
If they're driving a rear wheel or all wheel drive car you now have the weight of transaxles and more gears and possibly differentials.
Then there's a radiator, water pump, pulleys and belts and cooling fluid. And heat shields.
And all that engine oil.
Plus the emissions control crap including a catalytic converter.
And a fuel tank full of fuel. And a muffler and mounting brackets.
The weight of all that stuff adds up quickly.
On the other hand, the battery pack of the Tesla forms part of the structure of the car, which none of a ICE engine drive train does.
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And BEVs have a cooling system (for the battery) with coolant, water, pump, radiator and such as well. There's a transmission (usually single speed) with oil. There are drive shafts. The high voltage wiring is heavy. The battery pack requires shielding from the road and side impacts. BEVs very much do weigh more than ICE. Batteries are heavy and the cars still require many other common components that also add weight. BEVs typically have different tire requirements to accommodate the extra weight. M
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And BEVs have a cooling system (for the battery) with coolant, water, pump, radiator and such as well. There's a transmission (usually single speed) with oil. There are drive shafts. The high voltage wiring is heavy. The battery pack requires shielding from the road and side impacts. BEVs very much do weigh more than ICE. Batteries are heavy and the cars still require many other common components that also add weight. BEVs typically have different tire requirements to accommodate the extra weight. Many people complain of stiffer rides due to the suspension tuning needing to deal with the weight.
This entire post is bullshit. See my data here https://tech.slashdot.org/comm... [slashdot.org]
The only difference in the way BEVs handle is the mass is centered and lower because of the battery pack.
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The battery pack in a Tesla weighs 1400lbs
That's Tesla Model S.
Each wheel motor is 300 lbs
That is Model S plaid, and it's actually 300 pounds total for front and back (since you said each, but you total math came up right)
You are mixing two models of Tesla and I also indicated Tesla model 3.
I swapped out a blown 63 chevy pick up truck
Do you seriously think you are making an accurate comparison here? I'm just checking if you think this entire sentence had any bearing on the argument? Sure, and the 63 Chevy had max 140hp with an average 20mpg, so it was a lightweight way of burning a shit ton of fuel outside of just d
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I swapped out a blown 63 chevy pick up truck engine, V8, back in '87 and it weighed "only" 750 Lbs (so said the freight label).
Did you include the radiator, fuel tank, exhaust system, alternator, pumps, fluids, etc., in that genius-level math?
A full tank of gas is another 100 lbs to carry around. Most people also have automatic transmission, too, that's way heavier than a manual '63 gear box.
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Got news for ya... The battery pack in a Tesla weighs 1400lbs. Each wheel motor is 300 lbs, so you have a 1700 Lb drive train.
I swapped out a blown 63 chevy pick up truck engine, V8, back in '87 and it weighed "only" 750 Lbs (so said the freight label). The three speed manual transmission was a bit over 100lbs.
A BEV is quite a bit heavier than an ICE vehicle of the same class.
Tesla Model S: 4,323–4,960 lbs
Nissan Maxima: 4,685 lbs
Ford Explorer: 4,345 lbs
GMC Denali: 5,827 lbs
Ford F-150 4,069–4,653 lb
Got any more stories about an onion on your belt grandpa?
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What? I'm going to need some figures on that. While EVs do have a big battery, their drivetrain is massively simplified and weighs next to nothing compared to a gas powered vehicle. I mean the base model Chevy Bolt has a curb weight of 3,580 pounds (1,625 kg) and a comparable base model Chevy Malibu has a curb weight of 3,135 pounds (1,422 kg).
Those aren't really very similar cars though.
BMW 3er: 1,450â"1,965 kg
BMW i4: 2,125â"2,290 kg
ICE drivetrains aren't actually that heavy. A small 3-cylinder like you'd get in many smaller cars is like 100kg dry weight. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Re: what about use of road tax (Score:2)
Gotcha w/"minerals requirement" halves credit valu (Score:3)
As spelled out here:
https://www.eenews.net/article... [eenews.net]
"But there’s a catch: The EV supply chain required for the tax credit doesn’t exist." (!!!)
Minerals required to make market-ready EV batteries — lithium, cobalt, graphite and nickel — are primarily mined, refined and processed in China and Russia or in less adversarial nations like the Democratic Republic of Congo and Indonesia that aren’t parties to U.S. free trade agreements (Greenwire, Feb. 24). .... 'These things aren’t in place, and might not be for more than a decade,' said Morgan Bazilian, director of the Payne Institute at the Colorado School of Mines."
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A big problem for mining in the USA is that many of the minerals we need to make electric vehicles are in mines that are rich in naturally occurring radioactive material (or NORM), this is mostly uranium and thorium. This material isn't any real threat to the health and safety of the public as the radioactive elements are locked up in oxides, which is really just sand, that doesn't dissolve in water, get carried away on the wind, or get picked up by plant and animal life. It's been there for billions of y
Bill includes leases for oil and gas drilling. (Score:5, Informative)
I believe it would be important to point out this bill for subsidies on electric vehicles also includes opening up more federal land for oil and gas drilling.
https://www.theguardian.com/en... [theguardian.com]
The bill doesnâ(TM)t include any mechanism to specifically phase out fossil fuels, the primary cause of the climate crisis, and, indeed, looks to lock in their use for decades to come due to a compromise struck with Manchin. Under the deal, regulations around drilling will be loosened and new leases will be offered in places such as the Gulf of Mexico and Alaska. Environmentalists have called this arrangement a âoeclimate suicide pactâ.
This is a terrible bill if the intent was lowering CO2 emissions.
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This is a terrible bill if the intent was lowering CO2 emissions.
It isn't. It's red meat for the suburban-dwelling, upper half of the median income voters, who will love Democrats for a taxpayer subsidized discount on a car they otherwise could already afford.
Meanwhile, both my vehicles (including one that is so old it predates my right to marry) will continue to burn gasoline, because a BEV that is within my budget doesn't exist. I also can't even in good conscience protest vote, because the Republicans decided that homophobia needs to be part of their party platform.
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You are repeating a lie being told by people who have to lie about their agenda, because it is so obviously insane that the only hope they have of advancing it is to lie about why sane people resist it.
Ranked choic
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Homophobia has been a pillar of the Republican Party since I can remember.
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The radical fringe of the Left is less worrisome to me than the mainstream GOP at this point. Because the radical left isn't passing legislation at the federal and state level all across the country that's horribly thought out or designed to remove rights of citizens.
And I think you massively misunderstand Ranked Choice voting - unless you think the only choices possible are Democrat or Republican, FPTP doesn't allow alternate parties. Maybe you mean coalitions would mean electing alternate parties would no
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What is this anti-reality agenda lmao.
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Ranked choice voting won't fix that. It was devised to give unpopular radicals a chance to sneak in a back door. Besides, it may give you the appearance of being able to cast a protest vote without actually voting for the other side, but you're just going to get someone who caucuses with the side you're claiming to protest. Someone who will pull the Democrats further from the center, making them weaker and the political landscape more deeply divided.
Unpopular radicals don't need any help getting elected.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
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Thank God.
We're nowhere near ready to shut the pumps off...it will be at least 2-3 decades before the US is fully ready with infrastructure (widespread charging stations and the nationwide electrical grid itself), and EVs that are up to primetime for the average user....even the lower income folks that depend solely on the used vehicle market.
It's i
Subsidies for auto dealerships: (Score:4, Interesting)
4. Used vehicle must be purchased from a dealer. (Page 390, line 3).
Welfare for the wealthy!
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One might imagine the potential for fraud if you could claim a credit through private sales would be astronomical. It's already trivial to lie about how much you sold a vehicle for to avoid sales tax, now you're gonna offer up to $4K cash back? Get real.
Of course that's gonna happen through a dealership. Somebody needs to be held liable...
=Smidge=
should even out (Score:3)
This should just about even out the tax bill coming aimed at EVs, once federal and state governments find out how much they will be losing in gas taxes.
Someone has to pay for the roads, and when gas taxes are no longer sustainable revenue, that money's coming from somewhere.
Hot take: the credit is unnecessary (Score:5, Insightful)
If you want to buy a new EV right now, you are in for a 3+ month wait.
If you want to buy a new EV right now that *is not a Tesla*, you are in for a 12+ month wait.
There is completely insufficient supply to meet existing EV demand, without any tax credits. The EV problem is not a price problem, it is a supply problem.
The tax credits should be on *INPUTS*, not at point of sale. Figure out how to MAKE EVs cheaper in the US, and at higher scale. This would help solve shortages and create lower point of sale prices via normal market forces.
Wagons vs SUVs (Score:2)
- Zero-emission vans, SUVs, and trucks with MSRPs up to $80,000 qualify
- Electric sedans priced up to $55,000 MSRP qualify
So even more regulatory pressure to make every family car with a hatch an SUV rather than a station wagon.
Re:Not so keen on the limit (Score:5, Insightful)
I'll be frank, I am not so keen on the $150k limit for single filers. Not that I am one of them, but rather that particular group is probably the most enthusiastic about Teslas and other high end EVs.
Encouraging EV adoption is good but at some point it becomes pretty gross to subsidize toys for rich people. It's a reasonable cutoff and the money would be better spent on charger and other infrastructure.
And no don't even try the "$150k is poverty level here" shit :)
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Oh I'm sure those making >$150k care very much about $7500, but so what? Doesn't mean we should give it to them.
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Yep,
The subsidies are always for the seller, the buyer is just a "vehicle" (pardon the pun). It does not matter how much income the buyer has, the sale will still be at a Tesla, GM, or Ford, or another EV brand. The money will be received and used by the factory, and given the new rules it will go to American manufacturing.
If the buyer (read: money vehicle) is not enticed to the deal, being a young rich techie, they could easily spend the same amount on an exotic foreign car. $80k for a Tesla (purchase limi
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Care about sure - deciding factor on a new car? Just deciding to buy a new car basically means (well historically, IDK about insane COVID prices) you don't care about $7500 more than getting a new car. And ICE mid-range options are $40k already and going up. So I'm not sure this is much different than an option pack or two.
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Income caps are too arbitrary on most things. They only get put in place so the politicians can claim they're not giving money to the "rich". Problem is $150k for someone living in a large city like NYC, San Francisco, Seattle, etc is much different than someone making $150k in the middle of Iowa. Cost of living differs so much from place to place, that it's just a stupid qualifier for anything other than capping things at the poverty level (which should be regionalized when done as well).
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Re:Not so keen on the limit (Score:5, Funny)
Look, by the time I pay for the maid, my kid's private school, 2nd house on the lake, I hardly have $5k of disposable income left. You can't expect me to also pay retail price for a Tesla!