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Facebook Conducts 'Quiet Layoffs' By Urging Managers To Identify Certain Number of Workers as Underperforming (businessinsider.com) 140

Mark Zuckerberg and other Facebook leaders have given many hints that a reorganization is coming. Now, a specific number of workers are to be deemed "needs support," Insider has learned. From the report: The company is already telling some to find other jobs, leaving workers to call it "quiet layoffs." It told staff last week in a weekly Q&A with CEO Mark Zuckerberg that it was extending a hiring freeze that's been in place since May. Just before this meeting, executives told directors across the company that they should select at least 15% of their teams to be labeled as "needs support" in an internal review process, one of the people who spoke with Insider said.

All the workers asked not to be identified discussing nonpublic information. This was also discussed last week in a post from a Meta worker on Blind, an app popular with tech workers that requires a valid company email address to use anonymously. "These 15% will likely be put on PIP and be let go," the person wrote. The post prompted hundreds of comments from many other Meta workers who debated how many people would be let go. In Facebook's employee-review process, someone deemed in need of support is ostensibly dipping below performance goals. It is broadly seen by workers as a "performance-improvement plan," or PIP, and a precursor to losing your job. In July, Maher Saba, Meta's head of engineering, told managers they needed to identify everyone on their teams who fell into the "needs-support" category but did not specify a percentage of people who should be labeled that way.

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Facebook Conducts 'Quiet Layoffs' By Urging Managers To Identify Certain Number of Workers as Underperforming

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  • by juniorkindergarten ( 662101 ) on Thursday October 06, 2022 @09:21AM (#62943575)
    Facebook/Meta's answer to quiet quitting: quiet firing. If you're on a PIP, better start looking for another job, FAST!
    • by rsilvergun ( 571051 ) on Thursday October 06, 2022 @09:38AM (#62943603)
      it's working to rule. It has a name. Executives rebranded it to make us work harder for less money. They're treating us like fools and we're obliging them.

      And these are Facebook engineers. They'll have a job the next day. A little less pay and a *lot* less stress and work. It's unlikely any of them are working to rule. FB pays well but treats you like garbage. If they're "underperforming" it's because FB burned them out. Now that they're used up they're being thrown out.

      Use 'em like toilet paper, treat 'em like shit. That's the kind of company FB is. Most companies would go out of business like that but FB got an early lead in social media and since we don't enforce anti-trust law every time they have a competitor they either buy it up or run it out of business.

      People bitch all day about Facebook but vote for pro-corporate politicians who won't enforce the laws that would reign them in. I'm sick of it. If you're not gonna do what needs to be done stop complaining and get out of our way so we can do it.
      • by Petersko ( 564140 ) on Thursday October 06, 2022 @10:07AM (#62943677)

        I defy you to write a job description good enough to "work to rule" for any position of significance. In my career, going back about 30 years, I've never had a position where the description accounted for more than 20% of what I did.

        • work to rule strikes work in subways / buses / etc.
          When you have stuff like min door open time at an stop well when it's empty you don't keep the door open for the full time but when on work to rule strike you keep it open for at least that time or more.

        • Most jobs out there are cookie cutter. Real software development, they kind that involves writing significant new code instead of patching together frameworks or adding content to big third package, is difficult to quantify for the purposes of an HR written job description. Even in an interview it's difficult to really get across what the job is or isn't. Because jobs change month to month. I wanted a guy to work on the serial port drivers, because that's the need for today, but when that's done maybe I

        • For me personally, quietly quitting is simply not jumping to the rescue when a few managers made a bad decision and demand you to do the cleanup asap. (Which you could do if you go all in) Especially if you warned them about it. I used to work my ass off to put things back on track. But It is not effective in the long run. They will just keep screwing up . These days when this happens I will just do my job in a relaxed way. No overnighters. No stress If they force me to work weekends it is nine to five. Su
        • by mjwx ( 966435 )

          I defy you to write a job description good enough to "work to rule" for any position of significance. In my career, going back about 30 years, I've never had a position where the description accounted for more than 20% of what I did.

          Then you need to start looking for better jobs. The further in my career I've gotten, the more specific my job descriptions have become. "other tasks as required" isn't really a thing for me any more. For what I earn, a company doesn't want me shifting boxes on a regular basis.

      • by ljw1004 ( 764174 )

        FB pays well but treats you like garbage.

        I have first hand experience of being a developer at Microsoft and FB over the past 18 years. I've honestly not seen myself nor any colleagues ever treated like garbage at FB or Microsoft (other than the testing team at Microsoft who were all dismissed too abruptly). I've only seen consistent respect and support from management at both companies, plus also transparency from management at Facebook. I also worked a fairly steady 40hr/wk average at both companies, using flexibility e.g. starting the day 3hrs e

    • by realxmp ( 518717 ) on Thursday October 06, 2022 @09:38AM (#62943607)

      Facebook/Meta's answer to quiet quitting: quiet firing. If you're on a PIP, better start looking for another job, FAST!

      Basically workers comp/unemployment insurance is a privatised tax on firms to cover paying unemployment etc. Meta (who are probably self insured) are trying to avoid paying out on this by fraudulently disguising layoffs as being fired for cause. Expect a class action to demand payment on this at some point. They're not the first firm to do this nor will they be the last.

      • by stabiesoft ( 733417 ) on Thursday October 06, 2022 @10:34AM (#62943765) Homepage
        Not sure what you mean privatized. Unemployment is paid by the employer to the state and federal govs. I pay it on my little biz. You are correct they are probably trying to fire for cause which makes the employee ineligible for unemployment. There is something called chargebacks or at least I think that is the phrase. The more your company pulls from the unemployment pool, the higher your companies rate. The rate is also influenced by the category your company is in. So categories of workers can also get you a higher rate. I presume because certain types of companies have higher usage of unemployment than others. I think the other thing FB is trying to avoid the "WARN" act which requires notice of large layoffs.
      • by larwe ( 858929 )
        I would expect state-level or even a Federal lawsuit, not employee-led class actions, as this type of activity appears to be an end-run around WARN Act requirements.
      • If fired for cause you still get unemployment. If "laid off" then most big companies do give you severance, but that's very different. Severance is extra pay after you sign a form that says you will not sue for being laid off. Being fired for cause means that they will risk you suing because they have enough evidence to back it up. That's why they start with the PIP (performance improvement plan), because it helps document that you were underperforming, were notified, and failed to improve. Those same d

        • by jbengt ( 874751 )

          Also, companies don't pay out for unemployment, they've already paid into that insurance and it doesn't hurt them in one bit if someone collects on it.

          In the long run, though, their insurance rates may go up if they have a history of laying off people all the time:

          The 2021 Illinois state unemployment insurance (SUI) experience-rated [ey.com] tax rates will range from 0.675% to 6.875%, an increase of 0.5% from the range of 0.625% to 6.825% for 2020. The SUI taxable wage base also increases to $12,960 for 2021, up from $12,740 for 2020. (Illinois Department of Employment Security website.)

      • by jbengt ( 874751 )

        Meta (who are probably self insured) are trying to avoid paying out on this by fraudulently disguising layoffs as being fired for cause.

        IANAL, but I believe that letting go the bottom percent of workers is not firing for cause. Firing for cause would be more like firing someone for stealing, moonlighting when that's prohibited by published company policies, sexual harassment, and the like.

      • Facebook/Meta's answer to quiet quitting: quiet firing. If you're on a PIP, better start looking for another job, FAST!

        Basically workers comp/unemployment insurance is a privatised tax on firms to cover paying unemployment etc. Meta (who are probably self insured) are trying to avoid paying out on this by fraudulently disguising layoffs as being fired for cause. Expect a class action to demand payment on this at some point. They're not the first firm to do this nor will they be the last.

        Being an under performing worker is not being 'fired for cause'.

        Failing a mandatory drug test, assaulting a co-worker, stealing company property, those are the kinds of things that can get you fired for cause [thebalancemoney.com]. There is no way they're trying to set up a "fired for cause" scenario.

        And unemployment is paid by taxes, not by the employer's insurance. It would be insane if a company trying to cut costs had to still pay salary for the employees it laid off. So again, your post is completely wrong.

        Now... as to what

    • I think it's pretty well understood that if you're on any sort of PIP-like list/program that you need to find a new job. Once your manager identifies you as a low performer it's a lot easier to start over in a new job than to try to change his or her perception of you. I've seen some really talented folks end up in this category because they're working for an untalented manager or at a toxic workplace.

      I don't worry too much for Facebook employees. The job market for engineers and software people is still

      • Had a friend who had glowing reports, got a new manager and suddenly he was disliked and told to do extra work on the side (such as being a PhD he needed to write lots of white papers and not just design and write the software that was his job description). Essentiallyhaving the minimum 15 pieces of flair was not good enough. Within a year of the new manager he was on the PIP and out the door.

        • by dgatwood ( 11270 )

          Had a friend who had glowing reports, got a new manager and suddenly he was disliked and told to do extra work on the side (such as being a PhD he needed to write lots of white papers and not just design and write the software that was his job description). Essentiallyhaving the minimum 15 pieces of flair was not good enough. Within a year of the new manager he was on the PIP and out the door.

          This happens more often than most people realize. And situations where an entire project gets cancelled are also problematic.

          That's why when people ask me where they should apply for jobs, I always recommend choosing companies that make internal team transfers easy, and avoiding companies that make you re-apply as if you were an external candidate. Life's too short to deal with companies where a manager change can force you to find a whole new employer, or where being stuck in the same job with no easy wa

    • Facebook/Meta's answer to quiet quitting: quiet firing. If you're on a PIP, better start looking for another job, FAST!

      Considering all the companies out there who are whining they can't find people to fill jobs, this shouldn't be that difficult. Right, companies?
      • All those other companies might be in the same boat when the recession shows up. Everyone should have their resumes up to date and ways to prove that they are an Alice and not a Dilbert or Wally.

    • Quiet quitting has gone on for eternity. Forgot those who claim that they are required work 80 hours a week, because the law doesn't support that. Going home after 8 hours in the office is not "quiet quitting", it's really just doing the normal thing. If you are on call 24/7 for more than a few days, then you're in a bad job, if you have skills then quit and go elsewhere.

      Now, there ARE slackers everywhere. Companies don't like to admit it. Even those places where someone claims incredulously "we only h

      • by jvkjvk ( 102057 )

        > If your management is onto those tricks then start an incentive to move to Agile Methodology where you can never be held accountable anymore.

        How can you never be held accountable anymore when you have at most a two week period to get story points done?

        Don't get your points done and your are in the shit. Don't get your points done enough times and you are probably fired. That seems pretty accountable to me.

        • But you never have an end goal. And you pick your own stories and tasks most of the time (under real agile, the team picks them, not managers or stake holders). These are two week sprints, not two week milestones/deadlines. If it's a web thing, where Agile kind of works, then just tweak a UI element somewhere for no apparent reason. If it's embedded systems like where I am, almost nothing gets done in 2 weeks.

          • by jvkjvk ( 102057 )

            >But you never have an end goal.

            No, you ALWAYS have an end goal - the end of the sprint, with all your story points done.

            >And you pick your own stories and tasks most of the time (under real agile, the team picks them, not managers or stake holders).

            Are you sure you're talking about Agile? Because what you are describing ain't it. In Agile, the Product Owner assigns the team tasks. These tasks are made up of previously estimated stories that have something associated called "points". The Product

  • Hope they do (Score:2, Insightful)

    I hope this goes thru, the managers get a hard on for being able to fire the people they can no longer control, most of what little talent that is left leaves and/or fired, and Facebook dies a quicker death.
  • Having never been subject to a set of goals during my career, I am unclear as to what they might be in this case. Whatever they are, I assume this is a non-subjective way that they're measured so you and your boss can immediately see what the problems are and what you need to do to correct them. Otherwise, its all subjective bullshit and, as a worker, you have no chance.

    • They're probably as transparent as Facebook's community standards enforcement rules.
    • by lordlod ( 458156 )

      Given the goal of the PIP process is to lay off the workforce, having a subjective unachievable target is the way to do it.

      One of the crap parts about this is that it undermines the standard performance improvement process. Managers should be able to go to employees, tell them that they aren't performing and that they need to do better. However if this is done in a formal way most employees will leave (as they should, in the current abuse of PIP I would too).

  • This has been done for decades, it's nothing new. People must wake up to the fact that long-term employment with one employer is ancient history. Companies owe you for the time you work for them and nobody is irreplaceable. The fact that it's happening at Meta is no different, the founder is $71+ Billion [cbsnews.com] in the hole and he's now going to spread the pain.

    • This has been done for decades, it's nothing new. People must wake up to the fact that long-term employment with one employer is ancient history.

      Yet in every job interview I get hassled about how short my periods of employment are. Never mind that half the tech companies I worked for were startups that folded during boom-bust cycles...

      • by sound+vision ( 884283 ) on Thursday October 06, 2022 @10:28AM (#62943749) Journal

        When you wonder why there's a "labor shortage" when half the adult population doesn't have a job, this is part of the reason. Employers designate huge chunks of the labor pool as "undesirable" for no good reason.

        The real reason they can't hire anyone is bad management, which this is but one manifestation of.

        • Another part of the reason for the perceived shortage is dishonesty. The last place I interviewed for offered a max salary of $180K in their listing, so I said, "sure, I'll talk to them". They ended up sending an offer, and during the subsequent discussion it turned out that the max salary was actually $125K, and that was with no insurance or any other benefits at all, and any time off was unpaid. The interviewing manager got a little pissy when I very politely told them the compensation wasn't reasonabl

    • by mark-t ( 151149 )

      The problem that I have with this is that as people age and get into their late forties, fifties or sometimes even sixties, they are going to find that employers are usually less willing to hire them, because they want young and fresh talent. They don't come out and say this, of course... but the older job applicants are rarely called back after the first interview.

      As the expected duration of a job length drops, it becomes all but impossible for someone in software development industry who is aging to

      • For the same reason that one should not take out massive student loans that won't lead to careers where they can be repaid, anybody going into the software industry should recognize that there is a good chance that they are unemployable at fifty years old and plan their finances accordingly. I'm hoping that I manage to work longer than that, but one has to be prepared.
        • by mark-t ( 151149 )
          So you are suggesting that suggests that student loans should not be offered to computer science students who are in their late thirties or older, as they won't be practically able to save enough for retirement while they are also paying back the loan, and after the loan is paid there won't be enough time left to finish saving before they are no longer practically employable?
    • You can blame corporate Wikis for providing a place to record and share institutional knowledge.

  • Cutting 15% of your workforce is one thing, but if they just did a regular layoff they would be on the hook for severance. By manufacturing a reason to fire them, they won't be on the hook to pay them anything.

    Tuning layoffs into firings just to avoid paying severance is another level of evil entirely.

    • by mark-t ( 151149 ) <markt AT nerdflat DOT com> on Thursday October 06, 2022 @10:16AM (#62943711) Journal
      You generally can't turn a layoff into a firing to avoid paying severance unless there was some provable workplace misconduct - dishonesty, stealing, insubordination, assault, or the like. Firing someone for not doing their job well enough would be considered the exact same as laying them off under the law.
      • Once the layoff process has started, no, but if it hasn't started yet then that is exactly what they are trying todo.

        There is absolutely 0% chance that exactly 15% of employees are screwing the pooch which just so happens to be equal to the 15% employee reduction Meta needs to balance their reduced revenue.

        • by mark-t ( 151149 )

          What I expect meta is hoping for here is that with this news, some employees will simply quit (and no severance will have to be paid).

          If enough employees don't quit, however... it won't matter how few people they try to "fire"... it will legally be considered the same thing as a layoff unless the employer can prove some actual workplace misconduct. In jurisdictions where severance pay in lieu of notice of termination is required by law unless there was some form of workplace misconduct,, they would def

      • by mjwx ( 966435 )

        You generally can't turn a layoff into a firing to avoid paying severance unless there was some provable workplace misconduct - dishonesty, stealing, insubordination, assault, or the like. Firing someone for not doing their job well enough would be considered the exact same as laying them off under the law.

        Hence people are "managed out" by manufacturing these things.

        "Give me six lines written by the most honest of men and I will find something with which to have him hanged." as the old saying goes. This is why most nations have industrial relations laws to prevent this and if it happens (because prevention can only do so much) gives a dismissed employee recourse.

    • Severance is always optional. They do have to pay out unused vacation or sick days though, depending upon the state. But severance pay is essentially a negotiation that says "no hard feelings" and usually requires the recipient to sign an agreement to not sure or otherwise cause hardship for the company.

    • Firing for cause requires a process to be followed. Specific infractions have to be identified. A "performance improvement plan" has to be developed and followed. The employee has to be given multiple opportunities to improve. All this has to happen before a termination can be considered "for cause."

      None of these are legal requirements, but procedural. Still, if Facebook doesn't follow these steps, it leaves itself open to lawsuits by laid-off employees who will claim that they were terminated without cause

  • by Locke2005 ( 849178 ) on Thursday October 06, 2022 @09:52AM (#62943645)
    It would make more sense to get rid of all the "contingent workers" (contractors). I am a contractor at Facebook, and when I told my manager that I interrupt Zuckerberg saying "Do more with less", as "get rid of all the contractors", he told me I was being silly. Wouldn't be the first time a manager had lied to me.
    • In defense of people managers, the managers are lied to and intentionally deceived as well. It's a pretty crap situation when layoffs start and you shouldn't blindly trust anything.
    • It would make more sense to get rid of all the "contingent workers" (contractors). I am a contractor at Facebook, and when I told my manager that I interrupt Zuckerberg saying "Do more with less", as "get rid of all the contractors", he told me I was being silly. Wouldn't be the first time a manager had lied to me.

      While contract workers ARE the easiest to get rid of, more and more you are seeing the W2 direct employees getting the boot first and them keeping contractors.

      With the contractors, they aren't h

  • ...they don't use cutesie labels like "need's support". They can just tell it like it is...some employees are dead weight. It shouldn't be "controversial" that the lowest performing employees at a company are pushed out. If you need that much "support"...you're just a burden on the employees that don't need their hand constantly held (or asses regularly kicked).

    • There is something to what you've said, but asking your managers to find specifically 15% to cut means it's not actually about that.

      A more sensible (and legal) way to proceed would be to identify actual dead weight, either get them up to speed quickly or let them go, and then see how many more cuts you have to make to achieve your goals. You'd still get to remove a percentage of the workforce without paying severance.

      • From what I'm reading, it sounds like that is what they are doing..."select 15% to label as "needs support"" It's a bit "jargon-y"...but is still basically "identify the low performers".

        Yeah, specifying a percentage seems a bit arbitrary...but I suppose they have to give those performing the task >some sort of reference point...otherwise, how do they know how far to go? Are they done at 5%? ...or 5 employees? ...or 25%? I doubt the 15% number is as set-in-stone as everyone on the outside, reading som

      • The problem is, very few managers will willingly get any of their workers fired. Even a pretty incompetent worker often contributes something sometimes, and some managers like to "empire build" larger organizations under their control, and firing someone is stressful for the manager and worker and the manager's other subordinates. So to cut head count, you basically have to force a certain percentage of firing at a certain level.

  • look forward to the implosion of facebook
  • told managers they needed to identify everyone on their teams who fell into the "needs-support" category but did not specify a percentage of people who should be labeled that way

    If that's really the way it is, then it's just a call to get rid of deadwood. Nothing wrong with that, every organization ought to houseclean once in a while.

    Of course, likely managers (especially high-level managers) are exempt from this. They are never deadwood. /s

  • by backslashdot ( 95548 ) on Thursday October 06, 2022 @10:54AM (#62943823)

    I am all for layoffs, but this isn't the way to do it. Falsely labeling someone as underperforming isn't right, if they are doing their job as contracted. Asking managers to put their "bottom 15%" on a PIP, when that 15% could actually be performing to expected/contracted level is basically a form of fraud.

  • It's impossible to identify 15% of "needs support" category. This is a dirty trick!
    For a team of 12 people for example, all of whom perform above the goal assessment. How do you find that 15%?

    You either find whoever underperforming or you find the lowest performing 15% but you can't find the first that matches the second. Don't forget if you find the lowest performing 15%, this result is NOT always true, depending on the manager's ability to assess and whether his assessment was completely unbiased.
  • For a number of years, I was the supervisor of a small software test team at Unisys. I was directed to evaluate the members of my team annually. This was true for projects that lasted only 9 months and for projects that lasted 15 months. I argued that evaluations should either be upon completion of a project or at a major milestone within a project, but I was overruled.

    The members of my team and indeed most of the employees in my department were salaried professionals. Unisys insisted that I evaluate ea

  • is about to be irrevocably fucked. There’s a lesson here: If you see a hysterical mob doing something dumb, don’t join in.
  • Forcing managers to identify a portion of the team as under performing is extremely unfair. It guarantees you're going to get rid of high performers and keep under performers in the organization. It penalizes high performing teams where the manager is doing their job and creating a solid team, and helps managers doing a poor job.

  • Whenever any company goes through a layoff, if its leadership is at all responsible, it will try to identify lower performers to lay off, and keep higher performers.

  • "requires a valid company email address to use anonymously"
  • Just fire them, you won't fire someone who is needed.

    Start at the C-Level and move down 'til the required savings have been attained.

  • The Board of Directors should quietly fire Mark Zuckerberg, as he is underperforming. Look at their stock price. He needs to go.

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