US Opts To Not Rebuild Renowned Puerto Rico Telescope (apnews.com) 130
The National Science Foundation announced Thursday that it will not rebuild a renowned radio telescope in Puerto Rico, which was one of the world's largest until it collapsed nearly two years ago. The Associated Press reports: Instead, the agency issued a solicitation for the creation of a $5 million education center at the site that would promote programs and partnerships related to science, technology, engineering and math. It also seeks the implementation of a research and workforce development program, with the center slated to open next year in the northern mountain town of Arecibo where the telescope was once located. The solicitation does not include operational support for current infrastructure at the site that is still in use, including a 12-meter radio telescope or the Lidar facility, which is used to study the upper atmosphere and ionosphere to analyze cloud cover and precipitation data.
The decision was mourned by scientists around the world who used the telescope at the Arecibo Observatory for years to search for asteroids, planets and extraterrestrial life. The 1,000-foot-wide (305-meter-wide) dish also was featured in the Jodie Foster film "Contact" and the James Bond movie "GoldenEye." The reflector dish and the 900-ton platform hanging 450 feet above it previously allowed scientists to track asteroids headed to Earth, conduct research that led to a Nobel Prize and determine if a planet is potentially habitable. The Arecibo Observatory collapsed in on itself in December 2020, after the telescope suffered two major cable malfunctions in the two months prior. The National Science Foundation released shocking footage of the moment when support cables snapped, causing the massive 900-ton structure suspended above Arecibo to fall onto the observatory's iconic 1,000-foot-wide dish.
The decision was mourned by scientists around the world who used the telescope at the Arecibo Observatory for years to search for asteroids, planets and extraterrestrial life. The 1,000-foot-wide (305-meter-wide) dish also was featured in the Jodie Foster film "Contact" and the James Bond movie "GoldenEye." The reflector dish and the 900-ton platform hanging 450 feet above it previously allowed scientists to track asteroids headed to Earth, conduct research that led to a Nobel Prize and determine if a planet is potentially habitable. The Arecibo Observatory collapsed in on itself in December 2020, after the telescope suffered two major cable malfunctions in the two months prior. The National Science Foundation released shocking footage of the moment when support cables snapped, causing the massive 900-ton structure suspended above Arecibo to fall onto the observatory's iconic 1,000-foot-wide dish.
What about James Bond? (Score:2)
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how much harm this will do to the James Bond franchise.
The Bond franchise should focus on semi-plausible plots instead of more and more absurd super-villains trying to wipe out all life on Earth but forgetting to take away Bond's pen and/or watch.
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The Bond franchise should focus on semi-plausible plots instead of more and more absurd super-villains trying to wipe out all life on Earth but forgetting to take away Bond's pen and/or watch.
Why should they focus on something they aren't? If you don't like the story or plots go read / watch something else. The spy genre is huge, let Bond be Bond.
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You mean turn James Bond into a boring clone of every other spy show ever made by sucking the life out of it? Ok, makes sense of you hate Bond and want to kill the franchise.
Let's start by taking away all his special gadgets and get rid of all the hot women and make him always operate on a DEI team of uninteresting ransoms instead of being the cool lone wolf. Oh and James can be the trans non binary a-sexual half Black half Arab Chinese one who specializes in anti-white supremacy propaganda.
I can't wait t
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John Steed, Emma Peel and Mother want a quiet word. Don't worry, Steed is a gentleman spy.
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Lol, nice
Downfall of an empire (Score:1)
The US has enough money to support hundreds of military bases around the world, but no money to support one one-of-a-kind observatory.
When an empire can no longer look forward to invest into the future, instead spent all its efforts to try to trip and hold up other competitors, then it has no future. This century we will see the downfall of an empire, like the British Empire in the past.
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The war in Ukraine has shown that Russia is a paper bear.
We have been spending way more than necessary for a generation.
We were worried about Russian tanks sweeping across Europe to the English Channel. In reality, they would have all broken down before they reached the suburbs of Warsaw.
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Correction: The war in Ukraine has shown that American training and weapons made the Russian into cannon fodder. Americans have been training the Ukrainians ever since Russia stole the Crimea from Ukraine. The Russians are using old Soviet tactics and getting beaten up for it. It is the American tactics the Ukrainians are using. One Ukrainian on observing the difference in Soviet and American way to manage a military: the Soviet way is to simply lie to each other. It goes beyond that of course. The small un
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The small unit commanders on the Russian side have no authority to do much, they need a general to give the orders
And their communications system is antique, which is what makes that a show-stopper. In warfare in general you are dependent on communications, and in modern warfare with things like artillery and air support much moreso.
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And their communications system is antique, which is what makes that a show-stopper. In warfare in general you are dependent on communications, and in modern warfare with things like artillery and air support much moreso.
Which is why the Ukrainian Ambassador's tell Elon Musk to fuck off was a particularly bad idea. Musk flips a switch and Ukraine is deaf, dumb and blind. I honestly think the main reason SpaceX was helping Ukraine frei gratis was because the Russians insulted him, now the Ukrainians are doing it.
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You were right in until you veered off into TDS-vile.
Biden and Trump both had their own "do what I say or no money" events with Ukraine. But obviously the Biden one which he bragged about on film in an interview doesn't count for some reason. I can't imagine why you'd only remember one of them.... so weird!
It isn't just tactics. It is also that most American weapons for 50+ years were specifically designed to counter Russian weapons and since the Soviets collapsed they fell behind so we're seeing US weap
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It isn't just tactics. It is also that most American weapons for 50+ years were specifically designed to counter Russian weapons
There's nothing about the Javelin that's specific to countering Russian weapons, period, and after the humans involved the Javelin is the big hero in this war. The only Russian vehicle that you could argue that the Javelin is especially well-matched to is the Armata tank, which they aren't even fielding because they have less than two dozen of them... because they depend on foreign components. It has a hard-kill APS that is reportedly worthless against top-attack ATGMs, of which the Javelin is an example. B
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So the weapons fielded that target Russian tank's weak top aren't specifically anti-Russian deigned...? Ok.
And the Abrams tank of today is several versions later with all sorts of upgrades in defenses, team communications, scopes / target identification, weaponry, etc etc etc over the original version. You don't need to build something from scratch when your existing platform is modular enough to stay cutting edge. Are there are tanks out now or soon to be that are competitive or possibly even superior?
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So the weapons fielded that target Russian tank's weak top aren't specifically anti-Russian deigned...? Ok.
That's right, because every tank has a weak top.
A little knowledge is dangerous, and that's apparently all you've got.
And the Abrams tank of today is several versions later with all sorts of upgrades in defenses
Yes, and all that shit fit into the same vehicle. There was no need to build a new vehicle. Nor, in fact, any need to literally build more vehicles — we haven't built a single Abrams tank since 1992.
As far as mbt not being the future, that's been said for a long time yet has never been shown true on the battle field.
It was just shown by Russia in Ukraine. Pay attention.
Re: Downfall of an empire (Score:1)
Your information is laughably bad. During the 2010s in fact, the Army was complaining publicly because the government was contracting to build more Abrams tanks than they even wanted and wouldn't stop. You know who you can thank for that by the way? Fuckin UAW needing "job creation" for the "military industrial complex" that your moron party always complains about but insists on feeding anyways because it wants to keep the mafia...I mean unions...happy.
Not that I'm complaining about funding the military in
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That, sir, is not an MBT.
The claim wasn't that tanks are obsolete, although I do believe that they are heading that direction. It's that MBTs are. The T-14 Armata is a pointless vehicle that nobody was buying for multiple reasons. A light tank still has a purpose, in killing light armored vehicles. But as it gets ever cheaper to kill a tank, they will definitely continue to wane in usefulness.
P.S. I enjoyed your modbombing
Re: Downfall of an empire (Score:2)
Ah ok you want to play the "well I meant..." game. So you're arguing, that the M1A2 Abrams, isn't an MBT? Because if so, you're badly mistaken.
https://www.military.com/daily... [military.com]
I didn't link it earlier because I didn't feel it necessary, but there you go. 9,000 tanks already in their arsenal, way more than they'd even use if WWIII broke out tomorrow, and Congress wanted to order more so that they can sit in a motor pool and collect rust. Gotta protect them union jobs.
And no, that light tank isn't really need
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Re: Downfall of an empire (Score:2)
Citation needed. That article you linked has basically none, and is a very poor quality source, as is nearly all of Wikipedia. That first link I gave you is from 2014, here's one from 2012 as well:
https://www.businessinsider.co... [businessinsider.com]
Your move, comrade.
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Perhaps you should read the article the article you cite more carefully.
"Despite the assurances from the Army's chief of staff, Rep. Silvestre Reyes—who has received $64,000 from General Dynamics since 2001—played the national security card, saying "we don't want to play Russian Roulette with the national security of this country."
Not even Business Insider which is not exactly a Union sympathizer is blaming the workers Union as you did.
Re: Downfall of an empire (Score:2)
$63,000 over 10 years... Damn, that's like $6,300 a year. That's some serious cash. Who in their right mind would ever turn that down? You win comrade, bravo, being in a district that has many voters that work for them obviously has nothing to do with it in the face of that kind of cash, nor to do with any of the other representatives who voted for it.
Re: Downfall of an empire (Score:2)
Eh fuck it
https://www.defensedaily.com/u... [defensedaily.com]
Checkmate.
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Re: Downfall of an empire (Score:2)
Yeah notice how your argument went from saying that the Army asked for it to corporate cash asked for it, then to this. You do know that one single rep from one single district isn't anywhere near enough to push this on the Army, right?
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Re: Downfall of an empire (Score:2)
And what has changed, exactly?
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Re: Downfall of an empire (Score:2)
Probably not. In fact I don't even take advantage of provisions of the ADA that I'm eligible for because of my health conditions. I hold the philosophy that I should only succeed or fail based on my own merits rather than somebody else intervening on my behalf. I don't care whether anybody else does, just don't force me to. I actually get stressed out when I feel like I'm not pulling my own weight. I don't like receiving charity.
Unions seek to deprive you of self-determination. If you're average or even und
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As the others already educated you on the other topics I'll only address the weak tank top issue.
Specifically the T72 has a design that makes the top particularly vulnerable to ammunition detonation (and totally tank kill) on a direct hit or simply crippling the turret on a deflection or near miss or hit from lesser powered weapon. This is a T72 (and apparently T90) problem.
No one gives a shit about the T14. They don't have enough built or in the field to matter. And given how weak their military industr
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Half of Ukraine would be in GULAGs by now but for US military spending.
or maybe most of it wouldn't be rubble by now.
Re: Downfall of an empire (Score:2)
Based on recent events, it's obvious there will not be a negotiated peace between Ukraine or Russia. Russia will keep sending its troops into Ukraine until they win, even if that means flattening every blessed structure in the country. Russia has the resources to destroy Ukraine, and so far Ukraine has been fighting back, but lacks the resources for a big, massive, single push to expel Russia from its land. All the other countries are doing is giving Ukraine just enough support to keep the war going, there
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indeed, but war is an excellent way of transferring public treasure into private hands. most of that money will go to the weapons industry anyway, not to mention defense budgets multiplying across all europe which is excellent business, that alone is well worth subsidizing that puppet government for as long as necessary. also, the national liquefied gas association would like a word ...
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There will not be a negotiated peace until the US allows one, the Biden administration has made that abundantly clear. Zelenskyy ran on a peace platform, vowing to implement the Minsk II accord which would have left the Donbass as semi-independent provinces of Ukraine and curbed Azov and the other neo-Nazi formations. (Of course once elected he did the exact opposite, which was predictable since he's financed by the same oligarch who funded the Azov Battalion.)
Just enough support to keep the war going? S
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No, of course not. That strategy has been used many times, in many wars, with great success. As an example, Sherman's Atlanta Campaign was a series of attempts to outflank General Joe Johnston, who kept retreating to avoid betting trapped. And, in Desert Storm, the US Army attacked in a number of places, with any units that broke through turning north to threaten enveloping the Iraqi forces. My point is that the Russian army is in such poor shape
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The fact that you felt compelled to mock my suggestion shows me that you don't understand what's going on. First, the fact that the Russians have access to satellite images to show them how bad their situation is after such a breakthrough will just speed up their decision to retreat, rather than let themselves be surrounded. And second, a maneuver such as this will cost the Ukrainian forces much less casualties than the type of fron
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That's not what I wrote; I was merely accepting the fact that they have satellites capable of watching the battlefield. And, as far as my suggested tactics go, they've been used over and over with consistent success when the conditions w
US Opts To Not Rebuild Renowned Puerto Rico (Score:4, Insightful)
Could have just stopped there. I guarantee you we will throw more money at Florida in a year than we have spent on PR since they got wiped out. Frankly though neither one makes sense, in both cases we should spend the money relocating people and anyone who wants to stay in an ultimately doomed location is welcome to it, but not federal funding. It's going to cost enough to remove them later when they get hit by the next disaster.
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Only federal employees in PR pay income taxes.
While both stats pay SS and other employee taxes, the average PR income is near third 30k world, while you cannot get anyone to do anything in florida for under 70k.
Full membership in the club has higher dues and higher privileges. Florida is the keeper of Americas retirees and immigrants. PR is the place where people come from and return to depending on their lot in life and current weather con
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If it was only that easy. Perhaps it is, but no-one in Washington understands.
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Puerto Rico would be an amazingly beautiful place to retire, if it weren't for the hurricanes. Florida on the other hand just plain sucks, except maybe part of the Keys.
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The Treaty with PR has no exit clauses. PR can't declare independence unilaterally and the U.S can't kick it out either.
FYI: PR $32,000 per capital GDP is really not that much worst than Mississippi's $35,00. Do you plan to kick them out of as well?
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You are stretching your logic way behind the point of breaking making the case that France a sovereign foreign power where the citizens are French nationals and PR a territory of the United States where the citizens are U.S nationals are the same situation.
"You just want 2 more Democrat senators in office" Ahh so we finally come to the real reason you oppose Statehood, you fear your chosen political party loosing ground and your are willing to throw your fellow citizens under the bus for it. Perhaps I can
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You demand there be a benefit to the U.S to make PR a State but you can't explain why making Alaska a state was a benefit to the U.S and that's because there is none. Once a territory of the U.S, it has gained all the benefits you can possibly get, access to the territories resources, air-space and exclusive economic zone around its waters. The only reason to make any territory a State is to give the U.S citizens there fair representation in Congress.
As for the other U.S territories, none have expressed
unpopular opinion: good (Score:5, Insightful)
The NSF had decided to decommission the telescope a month before it started its catastrophic collapse. This meant that already, it was deemed no longer worth the funds to maintain it. Nobody (I think) expected such a photogenic failure, but that failure mode shouldn't have an impact on the math about the facility.
Observatories are not sacred sites. Their discoveries should be remembered and celebrated, but the ground they're on isn't Holy. If the cost to run exceeds the benefit, then turn those funds to newer projects and new discoveries, not just repainting the rusted structures from five decades ago.
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Or start dismantling it and building the new thing that will be worth it. I agree just because we can keep squeezing an orange to get a little more juice out of it doesn't mean it is worth squeezing. Even if we got some really good juice out of it over the years.
Re:unpopular opinion: good (Score:5, Informative)
Or start dismantling it and building the new thing that will be worth it.
The "New Thing" is the Very Long Baseline Array [https] and it's up and running.
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Observatories are indeed not sacred sites, that is true.
However, there are no other locations on earth where it was so (relatively) easy and cheap to build such a large dish.
With cheap I mean shape of the location not needing too much work to enable building such a large dish.
Rebuilding a new observatory there, perhaps for new fields of research instead of repairing what was there might have been a better idea.
Handing out a bunch of money isn't much more than hope it results in more science education. Sure,
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It's in a radio quiet zone, it was isolated to start with and the island government surrounded the site with a park which prohibited any development nearby. Radio quite zones are getting increasingly difficult to find in these days of always-on connectivity.
The observatories in Chile have the advantage of being in the middle of the driest desert in the world, besides the the altitude and radio isolation.
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The NSF had decided to decommission the telescope a month before it started its catastrophic collapse. This meant that already, it was deemed no longer worth the funds to maintain it.
No. The NSF decided to decommission the telescope *after* it started it's catastrophic collapse. Two cables snapped before the NSF made the decision to decommission the telescope citing in large part the difficulty and danger of attempting to repair the damage.
Mind you one part of your post rings true. Maintenance of the telescope was underfunded for years so they obviously didn't care about it. But don't attempt to re-write history here. The telescope would not be decommissioned if it weren't for the catas
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That's a fairly unique capability to lose. The other one we lose is a great way of looking for potential low-albedo impactors. Arecibo has a unique task in the form of planetary defense work that now falls on the shoulders of the Chinese.
Re: unpopular opinion: good (Score:2)
Are you on drugs? Arecibo taking snapshots of asteroid belts? Itâ(TM)s a RADIO TELESCOPE. And a very old one at that.
Itâ(TM)s dead, Jim. (Score:2)
If you have ever actually visited Arecibo, you would see that the radio telescope itself has been decaying for decades. Its mission had ended as well. Time for something new and actually relevant to todayâ(TM)s scientific needs.
The 70â(TM)s and 80â(TM)s defined the purpose for arecibo. It has struggled to find a purpose ever since. Letâ(TM)s let the coquis have it.
Build back better (Score:2)
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Museum so hatchlings can learn about a country that was once great.
Re: Build back better (Score:2)
It's a science museum.
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Has anyone looked at the investment the NSF has made in other Radio facilities before going off on supporting one collapsed radio telescope that only could view one swath of the sky. Spending on Steel structures in PR vs Pie Town NM vs Owens Valley CA is a whole different animal. The VLA or CARMA is much more capable telescope at a fraction of the cost year over year. Participation in the iVLA was very limited out of Arecibo Observatory
Education center (Score:2)
Education center to promote the ideals of equity, inclusion, and diversity.
Re: Education center (Score:2)
It's a science museum, not a college campus.
I visited it once (Score:2)
Subtitle: "for now". (Score:2)
As soon as we realize the need for a large radio telescope, Arecibo will remain near the top of the list for places to put it. Unless something else explicitly occupies the site, rebuilding is always on the table if the need is sufficient.
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We don't need republicans who spent the last two years denying science to tell us what to do. They are suddenly in favor of science? How does that work?
Oh, it's consistent. (Score:4, Insightful)
Their platform is just to be opposed to anything their perceived opposition is doing - even at the cost of killing their own voters via covid denial and dumb fuck conspiracies, even if it's something the overwhelming majority of Americans support like access to abortion, even if it's something they themselves support when it favors them like mail-in ballots.
The whole party can be summed up as "do the opposite" no matter what it is, nor how harmful to itself or constituents. It's a long LONG way from where it was even a couple decades ago.
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I am not a republican.
You say potato I say ignorant fascist. Same thing.
Do please blather on how you're not ACTUALLY a fascist, a member of Partito Nazionale Fascista or even an Italian.
It's just that you use a term meaning "alert to racial prejudice and discrimination" [wikipedia.org] as an insult, [wikipedia.org] clearly aligning yourself by that which you despise. [quotepark.com]
Re: So money for woke 'inclusion', nothing for SCI (Score:1)
If you disagree with my woke views that means you are a fascist.
The woke are hateful and, yes, fascist.
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It's true often enough that it's useful as a proxy.
Also, you very obviously don't understand fascism.
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Also, you very obviously don't understand fascism.
What was the topic again? (Score:2)
Feeding the trolls or propagating their Subjects is in the category of "That trick never works."
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Nobody has ever believed that. Ever. Gender identity is dictated by a large number of genes, many of which can have mutations. You can't use any one single characteristic to determine gender because some people you might otherwise consider male or female may not have just that one characteristic or physical feature. Anyway, apparently, that stuff is too complicated to explain to people like you with a 1-bit CPU brain. The fact is there are many physical characteristics that people can have, and basing gende
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Gender identity is dictated by a large number of genes, many of which can have mutations.
This seems overly specific, I don't think that the causes of gender dysphoria are known in this way. If this were true then it would be much easier to diagnose.
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Spending $5M to build a science education center is silly when the science education centers we already have (schools) are so underfunded in Puerto Rico.
But rebuilding the same radio telescope isn't a good way to "do science". We should build something new with different capabilities.
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But rebuilding the same radio telescope isn't a good way to "do science". We should build something new with different capabilities.
The whole design of the instrument was based on the limitations of late 50's, early 60's technology. You can achieve the equivalent today with a large scale interferometer; no need to suspend hundreds of tons of metal in the sky and watch hurricanes try to bring it down.
Re:So money for woke 'inclusion', nothing for SCIE (Score:5, Insightful)
People knew about interferometry then, too -- people used interferometry to measure the diameter of Betelgeuse in 1920. What you get with a massive dish like that is sensitivity (gain), not just angular resolution. Also, using more receivers means more system noise -- unless you can operate all of your receivers at absolute zero. And if you want to transmit a signal for whatever reason -- something that the Araceibo dish did from time to time -- getting the desired bean pattern is much easier with a single big dish.
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Turns out when you sum them, some of the random noise cancels. Analog Devices has some technotes on the topic.
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Not quite. Only when you're summing like signals. When you use multiple receivers in different locations the noise pattern isn't correlated between them. It's also not a traditional "sum" that is used in this case.
Two sensors measuring the same thing from the same location = less noise by summing the signals.
Two sensors working together from different locations to combine to create a larger image = more noise.
An analogy would be taking two pictures with your camera and summing the result (less noise) vs sum
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Not for the purposes of interferometry -- the whole point is that the sensors get slightly different inputs.
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No -- noise has positive power. Sum multiple sources and it goes up. Signal-to-noise goes up from averaging the same noisy signal measured multiple times or places. Interferometers don't do that.
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The signals appear as point sources (not say a whole nebula, but the small piece the antennas are focused on) and the interferiometry is processed by correlating the signals to determine differences in received time. Then the signals are summed so that that the increases in SINAD are realized. Both the time difference and actual signals are used in different parts of analysis. This is basic radio stuff, it's not that hard.
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Compared to where the signals are coming from, the receivers are in the same location.
No. a) That's not how interferometry works. If the signals hitting both receivers were equal you wouldn't get any meaningful data.
b) That's not how traditional imaging works either thanks to the use of lenses / reflectors.
More sensors = more noise. We deal with the noise by repeating measurements which is very easy to do with slow moving objects such as things in space.
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I come across this in electronics design all of the time.
The signal adds directly because it is correlated, but the uncorrelated noise adds to the root-mean-square, so the signal to noise level increases by 3dB.
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modern radio-telescope interferometry [nrao.edu] is pretty advanced, we have a Total Collecting Area 19,635 square meters and a baseline of 8,611 km (5,350 mi).
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The Arecibo dish collecting area was about 73,000 square meters. It would take a lot of small dishes to get anywhere near that.
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No, you can't, if that were the case other instruments would have been built. Each type of design has its own advantages and limitations. For instance one of the great advantages of Arecibo was that it was the largest radar dish ever constructed, an interferometer doesn't have the same capability.
This was deliberate sabotage by the anti-science party of the US, and studied indifference by the pro-financial industry party. The scientists have been begging for maintenance money since 2010, they pointed out
Have to agree with you. (Score:5, Insightful)
Rebuilding the dish is probably not the best way to spend science money. Also building an educational science center out in the remote mountains of PR is probably also not a good use of money. I've been to the observatory. It is at the end of a long narrow winding road. When the observatory is gone, no one is going there.
Re:Have to agree with you. (Score:5, Interesting)
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i'm assuming it is way cheaper to dress the facility as a memorial or sort of attraction than to actually clean up the whole site.
Re: So money for woke 'inclusion', nothing for SCI (Score:3)
It's odd given the number of Trillion dollar spending bills we've passed in the last two years that we can't can't figure out a way to spend just a tiny fraction of that money to restore a unique scientific resource like this radio telescope.
I guess this is a case of Puerto Rico suffering for not having Senators or Congressmen representing them in Congress, but then again, everytime it has been put to a vote, Puerto Ricans decisively vote AGAINST pursuing statehood for Puerto Rico. I may be wrong, but that
Re: So money for woke 'inclusion', nothing for SC (Score:2)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Puerto_Rican_status_referendum