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Transportation

New Jersey Legislators Aim To Ban Most In-Car Subscriptions (thedrive.com) 152

Posted by BeauHD from the cease-and-desist dept.
Two state legislators in New Jersey are proposing a bill that would ban car companies from "[offering consumers] a subscription service for any motor vehicle feature" that "utilizes components and hardware already installed on the motor vehicle at the time of purchase." The Drive reports: The bill has one stipulation, however. The subscription would only be unlawful if there was no "ongoing expense to the dealer, manufacturer, or any third-party service provider." In other words, if an automaker or other associated party can prove that it costs money to maintain the feature and/or service in question, then it'd be legally allowed. This would include services like OnStar and such.

The way "ongoing expense" is interpreted is going to be key here, assuming the bill makes it into law. This, obviously, is not guaranteed. In theory, a car company could claim that over-the-air updates and their associated data costs constitute an ongoing expense. That means anything to do with connected features could theoretically be charged for. Since a car needs an internet connection in order to purchase subscriptions, well, that might make this particular piece of legislation worthless. On the other hand, if the core value of the subscription is derived from the pre-installed hardware as opposed to the data connection itself, then there is probably a case to be made.

Besides heated seats, the bill also mentions "driver assistance." That could be a problem for systems like Tesla's autopilot or General Motors' Super Cruise, both of which are going to a subscription model. Both of these systems cost money to maintain, though, especially Super Cruise. The system requires enabled highways to be scanned with Lidar. Tesla's AutoPilot and "Full Self-Driving" are also actively updated and maintained, which costs money. If automakers don't comply, they risk "civil penalties of up to $20,000 per violation," notes the report.
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New Jersey Legislators Aim To Ban Most In-Car Subscriptions More

New Jersey Legislators Aim To Ban Most In-Car Subscriptions

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  • but they are already pursueing a policy of 'you own nothing, be happy'.

  • Let us suppose you buy a car which has assisted driving capability, but you never use it. The car came with it so there's no getting rid of it. Can you say, "No, I'm not paying for updates because I never use it", or will you be forced to pay for any "updates" even though you don't use the "feature"?

    Would the manufacturer be able to disable this so you don't use it without paying for it?

    • Re: Questions (Score:5, Interesting)

      by registrations_suck ( 1075251 ) on Friday October 21, 2022 @07:26AM (#62985345)

      You can bet that if you get into an accident, you will have to pay to repair shit that isn't even "turned on"...sensors and what not.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by deKernel ( 65640 )

        Not that I am a fan of the whole subscription thing, but this is a damn good point. Just having the parts can drive up service and repair of the vehicle over time.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by fermion ( 181285 )
      There was a time when you had to pay the maps for the navigation system. If you didnâ(TM)t want them you did not pay. Mercedes will allow you pay if you want remote features.

      This bill will not stop subscriptions. Everything just has to be linked to the over air functions. Heated seats are now remote by default, so you can turn them on before you get in the car.

      The tesla example is interesting as the Tesla fanbois all claim everything in a tesla is free.

      • At this time, Tesla doesn't charge for updates: Tesla charges for connectivity (although some cars, like mine have lifetime premium connectivity with no charges). If you don't pay and you want updates, you can connect your car to WiFi.

        Tesla has mooted a short-term rental model for self driving, but hasn't offered it yet.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by laird ( 2705 )

          FSD is the one exception. It started out as a one-time purchase, but these days you can also buy for it month-to-month.

    • What happens if you rent a feature and it breaks? Who pays for repairs?

      Rhetorical question, because we all know that, unless it's still covered by the warranty, the manufacturer isn't paying. Not without being sued.

  • There are two ways to get a system that approaches self driving - one is high definition mapping, which requires the manufacturer to constantly update and distribute these maps to the cars - a considerable ongoing expense. The second is the cameras and heavy machine learning approach - which, for the foreseeable future - will require the manufacturer to constantly retrain their machine learning models and distribute this software to the cars, which is also a considerable expense.

    Allowing drivers to keep usi

    • Re:Can't see this applying to advanced driver assi (Score:5, Interesting)

      by tlhIngan ( 30335 ) <slashdot.worf@net> on Friday October 21, 2022 @07:47AM (#62985393)

      The law basically states an in-car subscription is illegal if there are no ongoing costs to the manufacturer or dealer.

      So for example, an in-car subscription to satellite radio is fine - it costs money to provide the content - both operationally and in the content fees paid out itself to the artists.

      Likewise, a subscription for something like OnStar is fine - the cellular connection costs money to maintain.

      But a subscription for seat warmers - which basically were installed in the vehicle and that's it - would be banned. You can probably make a one-time payment to buy it as an option if it wasn't provided from the factory, but you can't pay $10/month for them.

      So if your self-driving ADAS system requires a monthly update because it has to download new maps and there are people who continually improve the system, sure, you can make that a subscription because map data requires payment to keep it up to date, and you're paying people to map out routes and stuff.

      But things like smart cruise control with lane keeping assist, which requires no updates probably can't be made a subscription, because what costs are there to keep it going? It's going to be hard to justify the odd bug fix as requiring ongoing payments.

      • Re:Can't see this applying to advanced driver assi (Score:5, Insightful)

        by mce ( 509 ) on Friday October 21, 2022 @08:08AM (#62985443) Homepage Journal

        Subscriptions for comfort features such as the seat warmer would definitely be out the window for good. However, I'm sure that OEMs will be looking at how they can motivate ongoing expenses even for safety related features that previously didn't need them. As in: "In the interest of customer and public safety, we need to constantly monitor the performance of this system such that in the unlikely event of a bug we can fix it without issuing a recall. Such innovation helps us to improve customer satisfaction, quality, and to save precious lives."

        If I were working for an OEM and would be asked to come up with a reply to such legislation ASAP, my first reaction would be that any feature that can believably be linked to data communication back to the OEM is off the hook. So let's think of as many ways as possible to claim that systems need to be phoning home.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by robbak ( 775424 )

        Yes, I did mention that, but the post is cut off half way through!

        The rest of my comment - Allowing drivers to keep using outdated software or maps would be a safety issue. Then I mentioned smart cruise control and lanekeeping as systems that may not require updating costs, but that emergency braking systems often do need constant tweaking.

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        Most cars have Android Auto now, so you can just use Google Maps on your phone. Or Waze, or your choice of navigation app.

        Constantly updated, live traffic data, mobile speed trap warnings, using your existing cellular subscription.

        Therefore, updates to the built in sat nav are worth nothing to me. If they aren't free I won't bother. Same with in-car voice assistants, if I ever need one I'll use my phone.

        • Anecdotally, when we were looking for a new car for my wife 4 years ago, we test drove a Mercedes and the voice control and nav was so slow and terrible that even the sales weasel in the back seat was like "Oh, you can pair your phone with the car and use Siri voice control and it works far better!"

          Yeah, because I want to pay $3000 for your shitty infotainment system so I can use the one that I brought with me in my pocket for a third of that. Needless to say, we did not buy that car.

  • oh come on... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Kisai ( 213879 ) on Friday October 21, 2022 @07:11AM (#62985313)

    Oh come on, the following features should be de-facto standard:
    - GPS, and it should OTA update or be updated with every visit to the dealership.
    - Seatbelts, seat adjustments,
    - Keyless entry,
    - Power door locks,
    - Power windows,
    - Seat-warming,
    - Engine-block heater,
    - Air conditioning,
    - Onstar (collision detection, not concierge services), or vehicle initiated 911/112,
    - Satellite Radio basic (weather and road conditions only),

    I get the premise behind it (seat warming, battery capacity, and other "software enabled" upgrades that can be disabled by the dealership upon trade-in to lower the retail price.) However I think it doesn't go far enough. These kinds of laws should be about dissuading "software-enabled upsell features", either the feature exists at the time the dealership sells the vehicle, or the feature should not be installed. You have to also realize that a lot of after-market stuff that is pure profit for the dealership has been sucked away by having such features. Like it used to be many dealerships would replace the factory radio or add cruise control to vehicles that are on the lot to increase the sale price of vehicles that are in more demand.

    But in general, we should push back against all software subscriptions. Be it GPS updates, Adobe updates, Youtube and Twitch subscriptions, etc Because once it becomes accepted to subscribe, they will use it as an excuse to push ads into the software to push for higher subscription tiers, or other upsells.

    • I understand the desire of the legislation, but I really don't think it should ban the entire business model.

      If it makes sense for automakers to simplify production by including features, and then selling subscriptions to turn on/off features, I see nothing wrong with that in principle. I actually think that's rather useful, especially if they move away from big packages. This is what they do now.

      I'll give a personal example here.
      When we bought one of our cars, we got the basic model. Were were very hesitan

      • But why would you need to pay continuously for that (subscription) if the feature does not incur an ongoing cost to the provider? As much as I hate the "hardware is still there, but you have to pay to turn it on" thing, I can at least somewhat understand it, but not the part where I would have to continuously pay for using a piece of hardware that I have and where the provider does not spend a cent in providing it.
        Stuff like GPS map updates - yeah, I understand. Continuous payments to be able to set the AC

  • Automakers need to stop throwing in shit you won't use, and they need to stop making it hard to add stuff after purchase. A lot of vehicles, especially from ze Germans, literally do not have the harnesses in place for any equipment they are not using, but more importantly they are not designed such that you can install it later without taking the vehicle apart.

    None of this is a law of physics. Automakers use a lot more wire than is needed to get the job done so that everything can be wired in star topology. But it makes much more sense to use a few micros and data buses to reduce your wire count. Literally only principal sensors and outputs actually need a direct home run. The industry is just now starting to adopt this methodology in order to save cost and weight. Then they want to cry about how they can't put wiring in for everything. Well, yes they can, if that wiring isn't stupid.

    • Re:Good. There's no reason this would be bad. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by sinij ( 911942 ) on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:03AM (#62985521)

      ... and they need to stop making it hard to add stuff after purchase.

      I strongly agree with this. I still remember times when an after-market stereo (head unit) was something that you could easily get and install yourself. Good luck updating your infotainment system that no longer integrates with the new $iPhone_version because there is no software patches available for a locked proprietary in-dash system and something broke in backwards compatibility.

      I personally experienced this with BT pairing in my 2013 car. No modern phone would stay paired due to some bug in how they implemented the protocol. The fix required ordering a questionable aftermarket Chinese system then severely hacking wiring harness to get it working. I didn't need a new car, but that was least-hassle solution for me.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Viol8 ( 599362 )

        Only someone really wierd would buy a new car just so they could pair a phone. The primary purpose of a car is to get you from A -> B , not a mobile telephone booth or entertainment centre. Plus if it had bluetooth I'm pretty sure it must have had USB too.

    • Automakers need to stop throwing in shit you won't use, and they need to stop making it hard to add stuff after purchase. A lot of vehicles, especially from ze Germans, literally do not have the harnesses in place for any equipment they are not using, but more importantly they are not designed such that you can install it later without taking the vehicle apart.

      You used to be able to do that. I put a factory Bluetooth unit in an 07 e90. All the wires were there, all it took was adding the electronics, moving a few pins on a harness, and reflashing the build order. Not sure about newer cars. A 2015 Mercedes had the plug for a backup camera on the radio as well; although I retrofitted a CarPlay adaptor and used it instead. Not sure about newer models. If subscription vs build is a build code item, coders may find a way around it.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Viol8 ( 599362 )

        " all it took... reflashing the build order"

        Oh well simple. I mean every amateur mechanic or tinkerer knows how to reflash embedded electronics, right?

        • " all it took... reflashing the build order"

          Oh well simple. I mean every amateur mechanic or tinkerer knows how to reflash embedded electronics, right?

          Google is their friend. Either find a DIY or use one of the services advertising coding. If they can't do that then that's their problem.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by Viol8 ( 599362 )

            "Google is their friend."

            Don't be a prat all your life. You might as well say the same for designing a spacecraft.

            " If they can't do that then that's their problem"

            Somehow I suspect you'd struggle if you had to replace an engine block or rebore cylinders. But googles your friend, right?

            • Somehow I suspect you'd struggle if you had to replace an engine block or rebore cylinders. But googles your friend, right?

              Nah. Been there, got the t-shirt; way before Google.

              But my point was, in today's Age of Google, even a non-technical person can find ways to code a car, if they want. Everything from a 3rd party service to downloading a bootleg copy of the manufacturer's service program and going at it with the right interface cable. For some cars there are phone apps that use the OBDC plug. If they are in a car club, asking a member how to do it is another option. So ya, if being a prat is not having the time for someo

        • He was talking specifically about a BMW, and there are software tools available within the community, as well as pretty damn good documentation about how to do it. And, while you are in there, you can turn on other shit that either is stupidly unavailable in your geographic location because reasons or turn off nanny-state annoying shit like it telling you that it's your responsibility as a driver to pay attention to the road instead of staring down the on-dash display while driving.

          It's actually quite surp

    • > Automakers need to stop throwing in shit you won't
      > use

      That'd be a lot easier if the paid-off politicians were liquidated so that we do get away with the whole dealer franchise system and go BTO direct from the manufacturer. Those dealers have a huge incentive to steer you to buy inventory off their lot, even when they're selling luxury makes that very explicitly support BTO, and sometimes even European delivery. But because of political corruption, it's near impossible to cut out these parasitic

    • Automakers need to stop throwing in shit you won't use, and they need to stop making it hard to add stuff after purchase. A lot of vehicles, especially from ze Germans, literally do not have the harnesses in place for any equipment they are not using, but more importantly they are not designed such that you can install it later without taking the vehicle apart.

      None of this is a law of physics. Automakers use a lot more wire than is needed to get the job done so that everything can be wired in star topology. But it makes much more sense to use a few micros and data buses to reduce your wire count. Literally only principal sensors and outputs actually need a direct home run. The industry is just now starting to adopt this methodology in order to save cost and weight. Then they want to cry about how they can't put wiring in for everything. Well, yes they can, if that wiring isn't stupid.

      No, thank you.

      Having all the vent blowers die simultaneously and having to troubleshoot where in a hidden and inaccessible wire ring the fault is sounds nightmarish. Same for "all your power windows stopped working simultaneously". Same for lights, mirror controls, and pretty much every feature in a car. While you'd reduce the wire count, you'd massively increase almost every repair job because you can't localize the cause.

      This is also the same mentality that has lead to recent tricks where gaining

  • We know how auto makers are going to get around this law...

    "Would you like to subscribe to our roadside assistance and braking service?"

  • Cloud integration (Score:4, Insightful)

    by sinij ( 911942 ) on Friday October 21, 2022 @08:36AM (#62985487)
    I understand the intent of this bill, but obvious workaround is to cloud integrate integrate controls and claim that as an on-going expense.
    Windshield wiper subscription? Well, you have to authenticate wiper blades to our cloud services to prevent theft.

  • Fuck the new slashdot ads (Score:5, Informative)

    by ArchieBunker ( 132337 ) on Friday October 21, 2022 @08:52AM (#62985501)

    Do yourself a favor and all this to your hosts file or pi-hole filter.

    partner-api.jobbio.com

    That stupid domain has been hanging sessions all morning.

    • After blocking this, commenting on this site works the way it's supposed to again - hit the submit button, and your comment actually appears in the page without reloading the whole damn mess.

      Yet another "improvement" brought to us by this site's wonderful caretakers.

  • NJ car buyers will be freed from subscriptions. You want heated seats? Buy the option, which is only part of the $6000 comfort package. You only want heated seats? Sorry, your representative decided you really need the $6000 comfort package. Meanwhile, cars bought elsewhere still will have a choice. One advantage of a subscription is features you only need occasionally can be cheaper, as a total cost over the ownership period, on a periodic purchase than as an option.
    • I'm not sure your point because car manufacturers already do this. They bundle together things in bizarre ways. The last car I purchased, the side curtain airbags were only available as part of a $3k package that included some sort of upgraded dashboard that I didn't even understand.

      Heated sets won't end up in a $6k package because that package just wouldn't sell. Really heated seats aren't that important even in relatively cold climates. Higher-end vehicles have electric heat for the cabin which kick

      • I'm not sure your point because car manufacturers already do this.

        My point was if NJ decides to do this it won't mean they'll be able to buy subscription times a la carte and add them permanently to their vehicle. Car manufacturers will simply create bundles as they did before; at some price. This isn't going to save NJ buyers money. Maybe NJ Options will join NJ Barriers in the car lexicon.

      • Heated sets won't end up in a $6k package because that package just wouldn't sell.

        They can bundle it in with a desirable set of features; instead of offering it separately. a $6K package is not that unusual. It may not be sold as a separate bundle, but part of a "Prestige" edition as manufacturers have moved to the SX-LX-etc. line to replace specific bundles.

        Really heated seats aren't that important even in relatively cold climates.

        However, having a car with them, there are a few times they are really nice to hav; especially in a convertible.

    • Yeah, because that's so different than what auto manufacturers have already been doing for decades.

      The "choice" you are advocating for is to either pay for the feature once, or pay for it forever; which eventually turns into only being able to pay for it forever because auto manufacturers really like money. That's rent seeking and it has no place in the purchase of durable goods.

      • Yeah, because that's so different than what auto manufacturers have already been doing for decades.

        The "choice" you are advocating for is to either pay for the feature once, or pay for it forever; which eventually turns into only being able to pay for it forever because auto manufacturers really like money.

        Actually, I was pointing out that such a law may ultimately be of no value to, or hurt, the consumer. Depending on the subscription model, there is no need to "pay for it forever." BMW, for example, has stated that you can buy the heated seat option and keep it forever; with subscription options for new uses for existing hardware that may be developed. It's possible they will make those buy or subscribe as well. If the subscription can be canceled and later renewed, you could only subscribe when you real

  • find backdoors into the software of the computers in cars & trucks that is subscription only, bypass the locks so users can use them permanently unimpeded free forever, at least it will take some heat off Microsoft Windows PCs,
  • There goes my business model of hard-wiring around their interlocks to permanently enable the "rented" features!
    • For heated seats, the rented version isn't even very good. A better choice is to pre-heat the cabin which can be done with a small battery and electric heater. Having that be disconnected from the car's electrical system is better as you never risk a dead battery.

      Tesla has done this right with "pre-conditioning" of the cabin. And as far as I know there isn't a monthly fee for it.

      • And as far as I know there isn't a monthly fee for it.

        There is not. In fact, they recommend for cold weather driving actively using a scheduled departure time through the Tesla app, so you can get better battery efficiency by having the car warmed to operational temperature. Extra bonus points if you're still plugged into the wall while it pre-conditions the battery pack and the cabin.

  • What car manufacturing is done in New Jersey?

    • Exactly. This just cuts dealers out. Everything to the manufacturer is interstate commerce and the state has no power to regulate this.

      • The actual retail car sale is not interstate commerce, because the dealer is physically in New Jersey, making sales agreements under New Jersey law to New Jersey customers who are also physically in New Jersey at the time of sale.

        If the auto manufacturer utilized a direct-sales model (a la Tesla) then it would potentially be interstate commerce depending on where they say the sale actually takes place, but even then I think it's still technically in the same state where they perform the vehicle delivery, si

        • This article is about a ban to in-car subscriptions.

          That is a separate purchase to buying the vehicle. And usually value-add subscriptions are available direct from the manufacturer.

  • I could have sworn that if you didn't want a car with seat warmers or some other add-on gadget, that you bought one that didn't have said gadget installed. That meant both the cost and final price of the car were lower. If the car comes with seat warmers, they had better f-ing work without a subscription. You already paid for the damn things, so you are being ripped off if they don't work without a monthly subscription. It is for cases like that this law makes damn good sense.

    Software is another matte

  • The Harvard MBA who came up with and heavily promoted the subscription business model should be lobotomized. Most people don't realize that their are leaking money every single month especially for things that used to be a one-time purchase. It's no wonder that 60% of Americans have no emergency fund. Don't misunderstand, I understand the upside to this business model from the company's perspective. It keeps the revenue stream flowing evenly rather than a huge burst when a new product or version is rele

  • "Besides heated seats, the bill also mentions "driver assistance." That could be a problem for systems like Tesla's autopilot or General Motors' Super Cruise, both of which are going to a subscription model."

    Subscription model, eh? I see.

    All those who were screaming for more automation as a way to make American roads safer by replacing all those drugged and distracted human drivers? You may sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up now, since Greed has made it crystal clear that only those elite humans who can afford to subscribe to autonomous safety features will be worthy of saving.

    Greed doesn't give a shit if the rest drives off a cliff blindly following an outdated navigation system, and we'll believe that a

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