Is This Nature App the Key To Saving Civilization? (buffalonews.com) 59
Slashdot reader biobricks shares this report from the New York Times. (Alternate URLs here and here.)
When Merav Vonshak wanted to identify the gelatinous blob she had photographed floating in a shallow pool of water on a family vacation, she bypassed a wildlife-related website too often beset by bickering. She gave no consideration to brand-name social media platforms known for snark or misinformation.
Instead she uploaded the picture to a site called iNaturalist, where strangers have come together to pursue a very specific type of truth: the correct scientific classification for the living things they photograph in the wild or the backyard. They have so far processed about 90 million, with at least a quarter completed in 2022 alone.... Like many iNaturalist users, Dr. Vonshak, 45, invokes utopian metaphors not typically associated with social media to describe the platform. ("It reminds me of "Star Trek," you know? Our society as I would wish it would be.") Indeed, while examining mud snakes and mosses, it has dawned on many of the iNaturalist faithful that maybe they are on to something much bigger — a model for using the web that is governed by cooperation, not combat....
A not-for-profit initiative of the California Academy of Sciences and the National Geographic Society, iNaturalist says it aims to connect people to nature through technology. And the site's species-level identifications have been cited in thousands of scientific papers. But in a moment that can feel like everything is subject to dispute — the cause of inflation, the nature of gender, the legitimacy of an election — iNaturalist has also gained recognition as a rare place on the internet where people with different points of view manage to forge agreement on what constitutes reality.... And some social network scholars say its growth holds lessons for improved communication....
With help from a computer-vision algorithm, users who upload an observation typically suggest an identification. Others can then add their own nomination in the comments. As soon as a two-thirds majority emerges, the record receives a "community ID," which can be overwritten anytime the majority shifts.... The growth of iNaturalist has been fueled in part by technologies that have democratized the act of documenting and identifying species. Its machine-learning algorithm, trained on the identifications of iNaturalist users over the last decade, now reliably recognizes some 70,000 types of organisms and provides real-time suggestions. Better smartphone cameras have helped, as have inexpensive macro-lens attachments and the ubiquity of wireless internet access.
But the article also applauds the site's "explicit aim of collaboration and consensus" — 120 million "observations" have been posted just this year — each a chance to experience one more small collective triumph.
In the article one 32-year-old describes the site as "the place where I feel like I interact with strangers and work towards the common good."
Instead she uploaded the picture to a site called iNaturalist, where strangers have come together to pursue a very specific type of truth: the correct scientific classification for the living things they photograph in the wild or the backyard. They have so far processed about 90 million, with at least a quarter completed in 2022 alone.... Like many iNaturalist users, Dr. Vonshak, 45, invokes utopian metaphors not typically associated with social media to describe the platform. ("It reminds me of "Star Trek," you know? Our society as I would wish it would be.") Indeed, while examining mud snakes and mosses, it has dawned on many of the iNaturalist faithful that maybe they are on to something much bigger — a model for using the web that is governed by cooperation, not combat....
A not-for-profit initiative of the California Academy of Sciences and the National Geographic Society, iNaturalist says it aims to connect people to nature through technology. And the site's species-level identifications have been cited in thousands of scientific papers. But in a moment that can feel like everything is subject to dispute — the cause of inflation, the nature of gender, the legitimacy of an election — iNaturalist has also gained recognition as a rare place on the internet where people with different points of view manage to forge agreement on what constitutes reality.... And some social network scholars say its growth holds lessons for improved communication....
With help from a computer-vision algorithm, users who upload an observation typically suggest an identification. Others can then add their own nomination in the comments. As soon as a two-thirds majority emerges, the record receives a "community ID," which can be overwritten anytime the majority shifts.... The growth of iNaturalist has been fueled in part by technologies that have democratized the act of documenting and identifying species. Its machine-learning algorithm, trained on the identifications of iNaturalist users over the last decade, now reliably recognizes some 70,000 types of organisms and provides real-time suggestions. Better smartphone cameras have helped, as have inexpensive macro-lens attachments and the ubiquity of wireless internet access.
But the article also applauds the site's "explicit aim of collaboration and consensus" — 120 million "observations" have been posted just this year — each a chance to experience one more small collective triumph.
In the article one 32-year-old describes the site as "the place where I feel like I interact with strangers and work towards the common good."
Re: (Score:3)
Lots of subreddits are also really good. Small, focused forums with strong leadership good. Big unfocused ones bad.
The death of a subreddit is getting listed on the front page. The death of an Internet community is someone saying "for the good of the community...."
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Good, honest, tolerant leadership might make for a good subreddit.
But the only ones I found were run by hateful wokeists who banned people who did not follow their agenda of intolerance.
And the appeal against hateful subreddit mods does not work.
Woke made Reddit an echo chamber.
Re: (Score:1)
But the only ones I found were run by hateful wokeists who banned people who did not follow their agenda of intolerance.
Most moderated forums have a policy of "attack the argument, not the author." If a user can't refrain from resorting to personal attacks, they shouldn't be participating. The moderators are just helping show them the door.
Re: (Score:3)
That would be nice, on any forum. Here, even.
But when that doesn't happen, what would be nice is for there to be an appeal against a ban by the biased mods.
And appeals on Reddit don't work.
Re: Traditional forums good, social media bad (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
But the only ones I found were run by hateful wokeists who banned people who did not follow their agenda of intolerance.
Most moderated forums have a policy of "attack the argument, not the author." If a user can't refrain from resorting to personal attacks, they shouldn't be participating.
No one mentioned making personal attacks.
Re: (Score:2)
If "woke" is any kind of a relevant issue, either way, on a forum, Reddit or otherwise, it's probably going to quickly devolve into mostly shit. Same for any kind of politics. Just look at Slashdot.
Re: (Score:2)
What was it, specifically, that they are intolerant of?
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
And more than that, the woke HATE the people who hold those opposing views and think they should be denied the right to express those views.
I am an atheist, but Woke is an evil, intolerant, hateful system of beliefs and I am surprised to discover that I prefer the misguided, deluded, but often personally kind, Christians.
Re: (Score:2)
The woke are intolerant of other views.
What views, specifically?
Re: (Score:2)
>
>What views, specifically?
Really ?
REALLY?!
You really need to get out more.
Or at least Google more.
I'll start you off with Dilbert:
https://radaronline.com/p/dilbert-comic-strip-canceled-woke-newspaper/
Re: (Score:2)
You were talking about subreddits, what does Dilbert have to do with that?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
So you can't answer what views the woke subreddits are intolerant of?
Re: (Score:2)
People generally get along in moderated echo chambers? You don't say!
This is a real nothingburger of an article. Of course people are going to get along on a forum where you're not allowed to discuss religion, politics, and iOS vs Android. There's absolutely no way to apply this "revelation" to somewhere like Twitter, where the users are nasty to each other because it's just one big mass of people with vastly differing opinions and any topic of discussion is fair game.
Re: (Score:1)
Go fuck yourself this is a great article. Stop acting like a fag.
Case in point.
Re: (Score:3)
Not necessarily echo chambers. Go to the C++ subreddit, and you'll get a huge variety of opinions about the topic in question. It's just that if you stay away from politics and religion, and have a general rule of "be civil to each other", it can be a remarkably nice place, with lots of very interesting opinions and discussions.
Also, related, "cpp_questions" is a separate subreddit. It's amazing to me how so many people are willing to spend their time assisting new programmers, students, etc with the iss
Re: (Score:3)
People are going to be assholes in politically oriented forums. The problem is when they do it in non-politically oriented forums. Slashdot is supposedly a tech site, but sometime in the Bush II era they realized that getting Americans to argue over politics gets lots of "engagement" and that's what advertisers like. So they started with politics stories. Now you've got {insert random political bickering} threads on every story.
Politics, religion and the other "never discuss at dinner" subjects being off to
Re: (Score:1)
Politics, religion and the other "never discuss at dinner" subjects being off topic isn't an echo chamber.
Yes, an echo chamber is where most people share similar opinions and even where an individual's opinion may differ slightly, it still has to be in a way that the rest of the hivemind tolerates. It's a very common phenomenon on Reddit, because the vast majority of Redditors use the down arrow as a way of lazily expressing disagreement.
Even when the "don't discuss at dinner" topics are verboten, people who are intent on finding something to argue about generally will. Be it which gaming platform is superior
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The reason religion and politics are not to be discussed in polite company (and a casual search didn't reveal just how far back that injunction goes, but it's a long way), is because they're particularly likely to incite less than civil conflict. People can get plenty passionate about things like plant identification, but they're less likely to devolve into nastiness. And if they do, it's usually far easier to identify the troublemaker and give them a time out.
Re:Traditional forums/social media/Slashdot? (Score:2)
My experience with social media and forums is rather dated and limited. I was on usenet and also dabbled in other computer BBSes in the 80s and 90s, I was on the IMDB for awhile. I'm on reddit but I have yet to figure out how to use it, and then there's slashdot. I've never been on Facebook, Twitter, or Tik-Tok. I'll probably be showing my ignorance in some of the speculations I'm about to make.
What I like about slashdot is their karma system. Do any other forums or social media platforms have that or
P O L I T I C S (Score:2)
USENET was legendary for trolling and combativeness, but I also had some of the best online discussions I have ever had there. I've been on forums that have degenerated into nightmares, and forums which were great. Same with BBSes.
I had written some other thoughts about group focus and leadership but deleted it all because, in 2022, none of that will stand up to discussing politics. Take a forum of people who get along great talking about a topic they love and the moment you say something political they
short answer (Score:1)
Re: (Score:3)
As soon as a two-thirds majority emerges, the record receives a "community ID," which can be overwritten anytime the majority shifts....
So, "truth" is based on opinions and not facts. And "truth" can change. Guess they never heard of the tyranny of the majority. [wikipedia.org]
And this is supposed to be the key to saving society? Shirly, you jest.
Re: (Score:2)
I think there's a key point to that concept though in that people cannot just say an ID is wrong, they have to provide and alternate and some justification for it which I think is fair considering the vast majority of taxonomic info we have comes from the academics who decides these facts to begin with, as much as taxonomy can be considered fact. (There is always contention in the field, it's all human construct type stuff there)
Re: (Score:3)
As you pointed out, taxonomy is mostly BS, and has led to some pretty bad decisions. Like trying to classify "types of humans" based on skin colour.
So was this at any time in history valid, even though whole societies have been, and many still are, based on this "taxonomy?"
The title, "Is This Nature App the Key To Saving Civilization?" is provably false.
Nature sucks (Score:2, Flamebait)
Nature is out to get you. You are meaningless to nature. It weighs an elephant and a human the same. That sounds noble, great -- equality etc.? Except it actually doesn't give a shit how much either individual suffers. Look around. It doesn't care about pedophiles, murderers, being able to victimize the innocent. It manifested Einstein, but it also made Jeffrey Dahmer. Why put sickos on the same planet as innocent people? Nature puts them both on the same planet. What kind of owner puts a puppy in the same
Re: (Score:1)
Well, you're not wrong. The only times I've ever needed to identify some nature was when it was some ants that made their way into my house and I wanted to determine the best way to exterminate them. Somehow I get the feeling that would be the wrong forum for such a question; kinda like asking vegans on the best way to BBQ a prime rib.
As for the moss on trees or the slug slithering up my driveway in the morning, as long as that crap stays outside, I couldn't care less what their scientific names are.
Re: (Score:3)
Great until the masses arrive (Score:2)
Re:Great until the masses arrive (Score:5, Insightful)
I find there are tons of online communities where people are productively working together to achieve common goals. The key is that they don't try to be "social media". It's not a place to hang out and chat. It's not a place to debate politics or advertise your business or exercise your freedom of speech. It's a place to work together toward a particular goal. Anyone who gets in the way is not tolerated either by the moderators or by the other users. There are lots of communities like that, and they work really well.
I suppose you could see that as a lesson about human society: it works best when there are clear rules that everyone follows, and it falls apart when people demand absolute individual freedom. Up to you how far you want to carry that lesson.
Re: (Score:3)
I think it is more clear goals than "rules".
Rules get manipulated and subverted. Goals are prone to the same, but it much harder.
I've been on productive chans that essentially had few if any rules but clear goals. Some asshattery is tolerated as it could lead to interesting diversions, but it is ultimately in service to the goals.
Betteridge'sa Law (Score:2)
NO
(sigh) (Score:2)
she uploaded the picture to a site called iNaturalist,
People. Please stop naming things with an "i" in front. We. Get. It. It's on the Internet. Everything's on the Internet.
[ Posted on i/. :-) ]
Re: (Score:2)
[complaints from 1994]
Re: (Score:1)
Apple should iSue.
So they've discovered democracy (Score:2, Troll)
Now what happens when the losing side of that "two-thirds majority" starts saying that the counting is rigged?
Re: (Score:1)
Now what happens when the losing side of that "two-thirds majority" starts saying that the counting is rigged?
You get something like this [newyorker.com]:
“I cast my vote and I saw all of these election-type people in there behind these tables,” Walker told reporters. “They’re going to count up all the votes and, shazam, whoever got more votes is the winner. How is that fair?”
Why yes of course!!! (Score:2)
Why didn't we think of this before, we can save civilization by building the perfect app! And here we've been trying for decades using fact-checkers and education. There truly is an "app for everything"!
Nice app (Score:3)
Did they even watch the same Star Trek? (Score:1)
I seem to recall Trek having its share of political disagreements. Like when there was a border dispute with the Cardassians and quite a few Starfleet officers went rogue as part of a resistance movement.
Star Trek was about people trying to get along, but the most interesting story arcs involved what happened when diplomacy failed.
Tech the Cause, Not the Solution (Score:2)
There's no money or power in fucking it up. (Score:2)
The only reason this place can operate in peace is because nobody has found out how to weaponize it. If there is any chance of manipulating public opinion or preventing the dissemination of accurate but unpleasant information, someone is likely to try.
Re: (Score:2)
4Chan will do it for the LOLs.
Now you've done it (Score:2)
Just wait till 4Chan hears about this place.
Re: Now you've done it (Score:2)
If I start tweeting about it now we may just have enough time to save the world, and possibly the universe.
Not dystopia but human behaviour (Score:2)
It's not a communication issue: As sex education and politics prove, there's always someone who doesn't want you to know the truth, there's always someone demanding more rights than you. If nothing represses or punishes that elitism, the result is a circle-jerk, an echo-chamber, and thuggery and bullying towards the people who don't join the group-think. That's why allowing a unregulated market of voices where truth competes, an information war where facts 'fight'; half-truths (misinformation) and deceit
Every damn app, website or company these days... (Score:2)
Is this /.'s way of doing advertising? (Score:2)
I've used it for a couple years (Score:2)
My father is an avid bird-watcher and told me about it and I've posted a few pictures there which other users were able to identify for me. It's rare that I take a picture I think is worthy of posting on the internet, but sometimes I do.
I never thought it could save civilization and I never noticed them claiming to be able to. It might make people appreciate nature more which is nice. There are some good photos there.
Data point (Score:2)
I use iNaturalist in documenting edible wild plants and fungi, as well as finding new places to look for them. It's a nice site, if a little quiet.
It's not a stellar resource for quickly identifying a species; AI-driven apps like PictureThis are far better at that. Its niche for me is as a better source of imagery to match what I have from books. It also is a red flag if I identify a plant that isn't known to be native here. The chance of a misidentification is much higher than the chance I've stumbled o
universal answer to headline question (Score:2)
No.