'We Found Subscription Menus in Our BMW Test Car. Is That Bad?' (caranddriver.com) 173
Car & Driver reports on what they found in the menus of a 2023 BMW X1:
BMW TeleService and Remote Software Upgrade showed a message that read Activated, while BMW Drive Recorder had options to subscribe for one month, one year, three years, or "Unlimited...." We reached out to BMW to ask about the menus we found and to learn more about its plan for future subscriptions. The company replied that it doesn't post a comprehensive list of prices online because of variability in what each car can receive. "Upgrade availability depends on factors such as model year, equipment level, and software version, so this keeps things more digestible for consumers," explained one BMW representative.
Our X1 for example, has an optional $25-per-year charge for traffic camera alerts, but that option isn't available to cars without BMW Live Cockpit. Instead of listing all the available options online, owners can see which subscriptions are available for their car either in the menus of the vehicle itself or from a companion app.
BMW USA may not want to confuse its customers by listing all its options in one place, but BMW Australia has no such reservations. In the land down under, heated front seats and a heated steering wheel are available in a month-to-month format, as is BMW's parking assistant technology. In contrast, BMW USA released a statement in July saying that if a U.S.-market vehicle is ordered with heated seats from the factory, that option will remain functional throughout the life of the vehicle.
Thanks to long-time Slashdot reader sinij for submitting the story.
Our X1 for example, has an optional $25-per-year charge for traffic camera alerts, but that option isn't available to cars without BMW Live Cockpit. Instead of listing all the available options online, owners can see which subscriptions are available for their car either in the menus of the vehicle itself or from a companion app.
BMW USA may not want to confuse its customers by listing all its options in one place, but BMW Australia has no such reservations. In the land down under, heated front seats and a heated steering wheel are available in a month-to-month format, as is BMW's parking assistant technology. In contrast, BMW USA released a statement in July saying that if a U.S.-market vehicle is ordered with heated seats from the factory, that option will remain functional throughout the life of the vehicle.
Thanks to long-time Slashdot reader sinij for submitting the story.
It is not _your_ car... (Score:5, Insightful)
Time to adjust to the new reality. You do not buy the car, you merely buy permission to use it.
Re: It is not _your_ car... (Score:2)
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Exactly like almost everything else
But the difference is: A car costs many, many, Galactic Credits.
There is absolutely no justifiable reason for continually bleeding the customer for options that should be a "pay once and done" purchase/license.
1000% Avarice.
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I fully agree. What is especially unacceptable about a "seat heating" subscription is that no actual service or material is provided for the fee. Rather, paying merely allows you to use hardware already installed in your car, and running off of fuel/electricity that you pay for. This is to me very different than, for example, paying for cellular data access in the car, or for the ability to charge your car at a station. The seat heating and similar "services" are an artificial, no-actual-value paywall, and all about avarice as you point out.
I will avoid to my utmost buying anything from companies that think this is acceptable.
Exactly.
Cruise Control, Infotainment Centers, Extra Seat Controls, Zoned HVAC Control, Sunroof Control, Hidden Cargo Areas, Heads-Up Displays, Collision Avoidance Systems, Parking Assist Systems, Automatic Headlamp Dimming, Automatic Wiper Control. . .
Soon, more and more and more of these entirely local, software-controlled features, will be behind Paywalls for no fucking reason whatsoever!
Meanwhile, it does nothing but reduce the manufacturing and distribution cost for the OEMs; because they can vastly red
Re: It is not _your_ car... (Score:2)
Also, maybe you have the option to buy your seat heating permanently, if you are sure you want it? So it would be an additional option, that you can test the extra first.
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But this is the end result of capitalism. Funny how all roads intersect.
Not many people are going to buy a Beamer that requires subscriptions to run basic features. This will demonstrate how capitalism actually works.
Re: It is not _your_ car... (Score:2)
Do you really think that BMW didn't do market research to quantitatively measure how much of a reaming their target market are willing to take? This absolutely WILL work, becasue capitalism is no longer operating as intended.
Re: It is not _your_ car... (Score:2)
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Fixed that for you.
Re: It is not _your_ car... (Score:2)
Don't quite understand how not owning a productive machine has anything to do with capitalism.
That's the opposite of capitalism.
Re:It is not _your_ car... (Score:5, Interesting)
Don't be stupid. It is 100% your car. You can do with it what you want. Heck hack away and get your upgrade for free.
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That may just void the permission to use it on public roads...
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Why?
Re:It is not _your_ car... (Score:5, Insightful)
Because it is a major change and major changes void the license to use it on public roads. At least that is the situation in Europe. US law and regulation may be more lenient.
Lots of highly modified cars on the road here. What do you count as major changes? Aftermarket coilovers? Big brake kits? Body kits? Engine and transmission swaps? Those would all be subject to normal safety inspection here, but certainly not proscribed.
If hacking the heated seats makes a car unroadworthy where you are I'm profoundly glad I don't live there.
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The problem is not the heated seats. But if the same system controls the lights, the brakes or any other important part, hacking that system means you lose the license to put that car on the road. I may not agree with this, but it is the law.
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Lots of highly modified cars on the road here. What do you count as major changes? Aftermarket coilovers? Big brake kits? Body kits? Engine and transmission swaps? Those would all be subject to normal safety inspection here, but certainly not proscribed.
In Belgium:
Aftermarket coilovers: some are allowed, but you must pay per year for the special yearly technical inspection for those.
Big brake kits: forbidden
Stainless steel brake hoses: forbidden
Body kits: same as coilovers
Engine and transmission swap: forbidden
Re: It is not _your_ car... (Score:2)
God damn is Europe a dystopian nightmare shithole
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So, what fuckup wannabe "moderator" mods giving factual information down? Shame on you!
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Yeah, we're gonna need a citation there. There are tons of very heavily modified vehicles on the roads. Also, what "license" are you talking about? Be very specific.
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It is called "vehicle homologation" and it is required to drive a car on public roads.
https://www.tuvsud.com/en/indu... [tuvsud.com]
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Don't be stupid. It is 100% your car. You can do with it what you want. Heck hack away and get your upgrade for free.
It's your car until they decide to withdraw a feature that you've already paid for, or they take a disliking to some unauthorized modification you've made and brick the vehicle.
If explicit permission isn't required for them to "alter the deal", then no, you don't really own the car.
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If explicit permission isn't required for them to "alter the deal", then no, you don't really own the car.
^THIS^
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That is the smart reaction, yes.
Re: It is not _your_ car... (Score:2)
Know what you are buying (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: Know what you are buying (Score:2)
With airline fees, more luggage actually makes flying such passengers more expensive. Want to ship more? Pay up.
My larger objection against subscription options in automotive, is that there's been a productional effort to actually develop and manufacture the hardware. Which is then rendered inoperative by a mere flip of a bit. What a waste of resources.
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It is bad, if you do not want to pay monthly for things that should be part of the list price.
Hardware features are part of the list price. You can choose not to pay it and "upgrade" later. But this is Slashdot, the site where we bitch and moan that our RAM chips are soldered on a motherboard and not upgradable, while also bitching and moan that our cars *are* upgradable.
I for one welcome a world where enabling heated seats should I feel the desire to do it down the line does not require me to buy a whole new car, or go through the rigmarole of having an aftermarket modification installed.
It worked for the airlines (see luggage fees, etc.), at least so far, so why shouldn't it work for them.
And I than
Re:Know what you are buying (Score:5, Informative)
You bought the hardware. It just doesn't work because of a bullshit software lock.
This isn't your car being "easy to upgrade". It's having parts of the car that you own held for ransom.
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Some of this stuff is complete BS too. Looking at the list, you have to pay too many CarPlay work. It doesn't say anything about Android Auto, maybe that's free.
Some of it is safety features like auto high beams. I guess if you don't pay you just have to manually blind pedestrians.
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In truth, it is an attempt to make the vehicle look cheaper that it is and then collect money from you forever.
Well, they failed in the attempt to make it cheaper, because New Car Price Keeps Climbing, with Average Now at $47000 [caranddriver.com].
BMW Drivers (Score:4, Interesting)
So this is basically the perfect market for car subscriptions. Have fun idiots!
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I presume anyone driving a BMW is either what you said or a drug dealer.
And yes, they are assholes and yes, BMWs do not come with turn signals.
Re:BMW Drivers (Score:5, Funny)
and yes, BMWs do not come with turn signals.
They do come with turn signals, but no one bothers to pay the monthly subscription fee to be able to use them.
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They drive nicely and that's why I bough one, but I'll never buy another.
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BMW's New Slogan - We're as Douchey as Our Drivers (Score:3)
When a car maker strives to be as shite as the people who drive their products.
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BMWs are bought by people that want to look like they're driving an expensive car but simultaneously can't afford a nice one.
I want a 911, but can only practically justify my M240i. Still puts a smile on my face every time I drive it and that is the thing that matters most.
Not caring what anyone else thinks in any case, never did, never will. Sorry, not sorry.
Re: BMW's New Slogan - We're as Douchey as Our Dri (Score:2)
Not caring what anyone else thinks
Others are merely there for getting in the way anyway while you've got an image to sustain, and you do it well.
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The average household income of a BMW owner is $124,800 per year.
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Where I live I've taken to naming the luxury car drivers - let's call them "luxholes" - by the brand the drive. We have Ac-holes in Acuras, Lex-holes in Lexus cars, B-holes in Beemers, Merc-holes in Mercedes, etc. We also call them snowflakes when they sit idling in the fire lane outside the local grocery store to save their precious able-bodied loved ones from walking an extra 30 feet to the nearest empty parking spot. Luxury car drivers aren't the only offenders, but they're a disproportionately high perc
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. We have Ac-holes in Acuras, Lex-holes in Lexus cars, B-holes in Beemers, Merc-holes in Mercedes, etc.
You seems to have a lot of pent up jealousy toward luxury car owners. You are posting on /. so you are likely in IT and likely in your prime earning years, why have you done so poorly for yourself that you have to resort to this silly generalizations?
Re: BMW Drivers (Score:2)
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Don't like it...don't buy it. (Score:5, Insightful)
It's the same as all the unreparible bullshit that's produced...They keep making it, because you keep buying it.
Re: Don't like it...don't buy it. (Score:2)
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This is a strange attitude. You could argue that minimum warranty periods are unnecessary, people should just stop buying things that don't come with at least 2 years.
For some reason we have found it necessary to regulate minimum warranties. It's almost as if the free market doesn't work in consumer's favour, like there is a power imbalance or something.
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....people should just stop buying things that don't come with at least 2 years.
If you want more than a two year warranty...then don't buy something that doesn't have more than a two year warranty.
...like there is a power imbalance or something.
Nobody is being forced to buy a BMW (or anything else)...this is a choice the consumer is making.
If the product is shit...don't buy it. Yes, a "warranty" is a product. Yes, a "subscription" is a product. If a shit warranty (product), and shit subscription (product) are a part of a vehicle (product)...don't buy those products.
Hack to Learn (Score:5, Insightful)
Car are the next thing to root. If manufacturers are going to spend resources putting features into every car and then deactivate them, it is an ethical responsibility to learn to hack these vehicles to activate those features.
I paid for them - I own them.
Re:Hack to Learn (Score:5, Informative)
Car are the next thing to root. If manufacturers are going to spend resources putting features into every car and then deactivate them, it is an ethical responsibility to learn to hack these vehicles to activate those features.
I paid for them - I own them.
BMWs are among the most hackable cars around. All the factory tools (INPA, e-sys, etc) are easily findable online, and there are cell phone apps that are almost as functional that give you access to thousands of parameters you can play with. Most have flashable ECUs also (though they have started locking them more recently). Some people will read this thread and think that BMWs are locked down cars. Nothing could be further from the truth. Just check out the massive coding threads for whetaver your model;
https://www.bimmerpost.com/ [bimmerpost.com]
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Yah... My impression is that after raging assholes, the #2 and #3 demographics for BMW drivers are people who like to mod and customize their cars for performance and either feel like they've outgrown the Japanese makes or just don't care for them for whatever reason; followed by people who buy and restore old ones for fun. I have a friend, actually, who is a serial 2002 restorer. I can actually respect BMW themselves for keeping their cars easy to mod for so long as they have. But if they're starting t
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https://www.carthrottle.com/po... [carthrottle.com]
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BMWs are among the most hackable cars around.
Cool!
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This
Of course the problem is to keep your new car warranty you have to have them 'service' it.. at which point they will almost certainly check for such things if they become common enough, and they will back this with some 'safety' bs, probably leaning on governments to give them powers to enforce.
Then again, I have never had the remotest desire to purchase a 'new' vehicle. I prefer someone else to take the initial depreciation hit and run the vehicle in for me.
Re:Hack to Learn (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course the problem is to keep your new car warranty you have to have them 'service' it.. at which point they will almost certainly check for such things if they become common enough, and they will back this with some 'safety' bs, probably leaning on governments to give them powers to enforce.
Leanng on government to give them powers to enforce an action specifically prohibited by the 1975 Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, which prohibits dealers from refusing to honor your warranty if someone else performs the repairs. They can specify which facilities you use if you are having service performed free of charge under the warranty, For modifications made to the car, they won't invalidate the warranty unless the modifications can be shown to have contributed to the failure requiring service. And under the Magnuson-Moss act, a dealer has to prove that 'unauthorized service' caused damage to the car before they can deny warranty coverage; hacking the car to activate features will likely involve the same computer that controls other aspects of the car, but there's also nothing preventing you from reversing the hack before taking it in for warranty service, then reapplying it afterward.
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Of course the problem is to keep your new car warranty you have to have them 'service' it.. at which point they will almost certainly check for such things if they become common enough, and they will back this with some 'safety' bs, probably leaning on governments to give them powers to enforce.
If you are under warranty and flash your ECU or TCU they may or may not have an issue with it. Seems very dealer dependent but it is understood to be at your own risk in any case.
Lots of other things you can mod with no issues apart from if they need to update your software they may wipe out your changes and you will have to reapply them. Here are some things I can change in my F22 with a $35 app, (they are all in various body modules, not the ECU);
https://bimmercode.app/cars/f2... [bimmercode.app]
Even more thing
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Yes you do, but remember you paid for the hardware, and the advertisement clearly will show zero expectation that it functions. There's a difference between owning a thing, and owning a thing that does something.
By the way BMW drivers have a long history of hacking their cars and incorporating software features from more expensive models.
Re: Hack to Learn (Score:2)
Why hack it with the ecu? Most cars have a few blanks where they didn't put buttons. Just wire in a relay for the heated seats.
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Car are the next thing to root.
Yes, but sadly car culture and geek culture don't overlap much, so there isn't many people with passion for such work. More so, suppliers that produce these car systems are more diverse than what we have in IT and RTOS they use sufficiently different that you can't just slap Linux on it.
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Yes, but sadly car culture and geek culture don't overlap much
If you drive a modern car and don't connect it to a laptop now and then you are not really a car geek or computer geek. Cars are all about software and have been for a while.
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You are not talking about the same thing here. Putting ECU tune is not the same things as putting custom ROM on your Android. A tune at most would be considered a config file.
The config file for all your hundreds of engine tuning parameters and curves I suppose. Makes an init system seem trivial. You still have to hook it up and flash it, log it, and learn from it. I would not recommend this at all for non computer geeks. Flashing Linage on your phone is comparatively easy and much less likely to result in a large unplanned expense.
Car+laptop really does require good knowledge of both. Doing so otherwise would be dumb.
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You still have to hook it up and flash it, log it, and learn from it. I would not recommend this at all for non computer geeks. Car+laptop really does require good knowledge of both.
I recently went through this with my Amarok, disabled the EGR and DPF remapped the injection system. I looked to the engine internals and there is so little block between cylinders that a larger bore and pistons is not going to happen.
That said it goes a whole lot better now than it did before.
Amarok (Score:2)
"I recently went through this with my Amarok"
Amarok? They named a car after Mike Oldfield's 1 track 60 minute album from 1990?
[B]ig [M]oney [W]aste (Score:2)
Just that, really.
Nope. (Score:4, Interesting)
I just bought a good ol' mostly-mechanical 5-year-old petrol car with a mere 30k miles on the clock. I'm going to hold on to it for the next 20 years because what is happening to modern cars is simply unacceptable.
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I just bought a good ol' mostly-mechanical 5-year-old petrol car
No you didn't. Not even in the worst corners of China and India are 5 year old cars "mostly-mechanical". Just because you have buttons on the dashboard doesn't mean your system isn't entirely controlled electrically and managed by a computer.
Re: Nope. (Score:3)
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My uncle preserved for me an old machine For 50 odd years
Lots of people wishing for a future with no human driven cars. FTM lots of people wishing for a future with no personal transportation at all. Both of these nightmares could well come true. Rush had no idea how prescient they would be.
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I strip away the old debris
That hides a shining car
A brilliant red Barchetta
From a better vanished time
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The BMW isn't mostly mechanical?
Probably bad (Score:2)
... if you're dumb enough to buy a BMW knowing it's coming.
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BMW is making so much shit out of plastic that shouldn't be. Oil pans, intake manifolds, even valve covers are made of plastic now. But then again this is the same company who thought it would be good to let oil flow through the alternator bracket. Yes, the bracket has oil flowing through it. So after a few years the o rings dry up and it starts leaking oil.
My 2006 330XI stopped getting software/GPS updat (Score:2)
My 2006 330XI stopped getting software/GPS updates in 2016. Does this mean they’ll keep software longer or post end-of-life notices for when remotely accessible components will be unpatched roaming security vulnerabilities?
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My 2006 330XI stopped getting software/GPS updates in 2016. Does this mean they’ll keep software longer or post end-of-life notices for when remotely accessible components will be unpatched roaming security vulnerabilities?
You are going to be constrained by your connectivity. With the end of 3G now some models will no longer have any unless they are hooked up at the shop. Some models will be upgradeble to 4G modems.
This is going to ba a thing for all of the "G"s going forward. Not specific to BMW.
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BMW never expected it to last this long. How many wallnut blasting rounds to get off sludge did it take it to keep it on the road for so long?
Direct injection engines have come a long way since 2006, but good to see lots still on the road. GPS updates seem to be his current issue. The mechanical stuff is easy in comparison.
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Direct injection engines have come a long way since 2006... The mechanical stuff is easy in comparison.
Yes they did, but even back then sludge wasn't necessary 'feature'. For example, Jaguar's AJ133 does not sludge under normal circumstances despite being DI. I can name more examples.
Basically, BMW and Audi really dropped the ball on DI and never made it right. To the point that many of these cars are no longer on the road. This is Nikasil all over again.
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Do you own it or not? (Score:2)
It is not reasonable to pay over $35K US for a car and then discover that you can't turn on the seat heaters in the car without paying a monthly subscription fee to the manufacturer. We need to institutionalize hacking these vehicles so that people can use the devices they have paid for without paying extortionate (and eternal) fees to the hardware manufacturer. Like phones and TVs, these devices are getting unacceptably chatty with people I don't know. We need to find ways to free ourselves from this su
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If you bought a car that didn't have heated seats - you don't have heated seats.
What's the issue?
Of course, if you got it from a dealer who advertised that it had heated seats, and they stopped working after you bought it, that's the dealers problem to resolve, not yours.
And yes, I'm aware that some cars have all the hardware and (disabled in settings) software to have heated seats, but if they were not sold new with that option activated, then you can either subscribe to it, or just accept a car with the f
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But if you rent or lease or are still financing that car - it is not yours and you should be liable for damaging or altering the car's software same as if you broke and did not repair a seat or
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Tesla has already disabled options when the car was sold to another owner. https://www.theverge.com/2020/... [theverge.com]
Translation (Score:3)
this keeps things more digestible for consumers
this lets customers know that we're going to screw them over but we're not going to tell them just how bad it's going to be because we want to astonish them.
It all makes sense now! (Score:5, Funny)
I feel so bad. All these years I've assumed BMW drivers are just narcissistic jerks who refuse to use their turn signals but it turns out they're just too cheap to subscribe to them!
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Ah, that distinctive sound of a BMW turn signal: cha-CHING..chaCHING...chaCHING! All for only $0.05 per blink.
Can I have cooled seats instead of heated, please? (Score:2)
"...In the land down under, heated front seats and a heated steering wheel are available in a month-to-month format..."
As an Australian (a Sandgroper to be precise) I have absolutely zero desire for heated seats or steering wheel. COOLED seats and steering wheel? Hell yes, THEY would be worth it for me! Perth doesn't get cold, but it does get hot.
I'm digressing, sure, as I understand a lot more people seem to live in the colder climes than the warmer ones, hence heated seats came out before cooled/ventilate
Quote (Score:2)
Boy, what a sound! How I love the sound of clinking money! That beautiful sound of cold hard cash! Nickels, nickels, nickels! That beautiful sound of clinking nickels!
BMW, apparently.
Hmm (Score:3)
And I will not be buying a BMW with these 'options.' Subsctiption services are a plague upon the software industry; hate to see what they'll do to the automotive industry.
BMW will probably end up getting sued when someone dies in a snowstorm because they didn't pay their monthly AC bill.
a screwdriver is definitely not a chisel (Score:3)
Customers should note that in order to use our screwdrivers as chisels, a fee of $2.50 per hammer blow will be debited to their accounts.
Car and Driver click-bait (Score:2)
how can C&D not know any of this? It's not secret, and super-basic info any BMW dealer or owner would be able to tell you, and AFAIK nothing has changed in like 4 or so years (i.e. the last 3 i-drive generations).
In the USA drive-recorder has been $100/permanent when ordered with the vehicle. $150/permanent when purchased after-the-fact. OR $x / month if the user CHOOSES this option.
Subscription services (e.g. traffic camera data, navigation map updates, data connectivity, etc.) are monthly.... an
so this keeps things more digestible for consumers (Score:2)
There is an element of this that makes sense for c (Score:3)
We are seeing all the subscription haters in this thread, and I get it - rubs me the wrong way too.
But there is an element that makes sense for people who turn over cars every few years. Why pay for the full cost of a feature if you renting it for your two years of ownership is cheaper? Options typically make very difference to the resale price of a used car, so there is no point to buy it, and if you are leasing then it becomes self evident.
Of course, unless you buy the argument that it is cheaper to build all the cars mechanically identical and differentiate them in software than to customize each one, we are all paying an increased cost on account of the features we do not use. But in a purely short term transactional sense, the renting could be less of a negative than buying the feature.
Fortunately (Score:2)
Fortunately, I am still able to opt out of buying a BMW.