Amsterdam Calls For Crackdown On Menace of Souped-Up E-Bikes (theguardian.com) 141
An anonymous reader quotes a report from The Guardian: The Netherlands, once famed for being cycle-friendly, is facing a surprising threat: souped-up electric bikes speeding at up to 42kph (26mph). [...] Fietsersbond [is] a cyclists' union that is campaigning to crack down on speedy e-bikes and "fat bikes" -- those with extremely wide tyres. These should only use cycle paths with a maximum speed of 25kph -- but some of the bikes are designed to go faster or are being altered by the user to allow them to do so. Last June, Dutch MPs voted to ban people from boosting factory-programmed e-bike speeds, and cycling experts warn that nations rapidly adopting them, such as the UK, will soon face the same issues. Recent Dutch government research found e-bikes typically travel at almost 24kph, 3kph faster than normal bicycles, but a quarter of e-bikers exceed the limit – especially young adults. Mopeds and racers might be worse, but the Netherlands has an estimated 5m e-bikes, for a population of 17.8 million, and users include primary school children.
Esther van Garderen, director of the Fietsersbond, is campaigning for quick enforcement of the speed-boost ban and prohibiting fast e-bikes in bike lanes. "The problem is not normal e-bikes, but ever more souped-up bikes that are basically illegal mopeds," she said. "In the Netherlands, since January, moped users must wear a helmet and young people don't like this. They also need to be 16 and have a driving licence, but illegal 'fat' bikes are just sold, youngsters under 16 use them on the roads going at 40kph, without a helmet. This isn't allowed, but there is no enforcement." She added that a plan by Amsterdam-Zuid district council to research whether child cyclists should be obliged to attach a flag to their bikes to improve road safety made her blood boil: "To think that the solution is that children need to have a flag is blaming the victim to the max."
This autumn, Amsterdam will reduce speed limits from 50 to 30kph on 500 roads and the city is also researching "intelligent speed adaptation" systems to warn speeding cyclists or even force e-bikes to slow down. "Traffic safety and safe biking are areas where I really want to break ground in the coming years," said Melanie van der Horst, deputy mayor for traffic. "Two-thirds of Amsterdammers tell us they don't feel safe in the traffic. So more than 80% of roads will become a 30kph zone and we are researching a speed limit on the bike lanes. The growth of electric vehicles means there are huge speed differences on bike lanes and studies show that this creates risks." [...] The international cycling advocacy foundation BYCS believes that slightly slower cities might be better ones. "Technology is praised as progress, but it's not about progress," said Maud de Vries, the chief executive. "It's about urban health and a system where people are more active, healthy and cross each other's paths, in a good way."
Esther van Garderen, director of the Fietsersbond, is campaigning for quick enforcement of the speed-boost ban and prohibiting fast e-bikes in bike lanes. "The problem is not normal e-bikes, but ever more souped-up bikes that are basically illegal mopeds," she said. "In the Netherlands, since January, moped users must wear a helmet and young people don't like this. They also need to be 16 and have a driving licence, but illegal 'fat' bikes are just sold, youngsters under 16 use them on the roads going at 40kph, without a helmet. This isn't allowed, but there is no enforcement." She added that a plan by Amsterdam-Zuid district council to research whether child cyclists should be obliged to attach a flag to their bikes to improve road safety made her blood boil: "To think that the solution is that children need to have a flag is blaming the victim to the max."
This autumn, Amsterdam will reduce speed limits from 50 to 30kph on 500 roads and the city is also researching "intelligent speed adaptation" systems to warn speeding cyclists or even force e-bikes to slow down. "Traffic safety and safe biking are areas where I really want to break ground in the coming years," said Melanie van der Horst, deputy mayor for traffic. "Two-thirds of Amsterdammers tell us they don't feel safe in the traffic. So more than 80% of roads will become a 30kph zone and we are researching a speed limit on the bike lanes. The growth of electric vehicles means there are huge speed differences on bike lanes and studies show that this creates risks." [...] The international cycling advocacy foundation BYCS believes that slightly slower cities might be better ones. "Technology is praised as progress, but it's not about progress," said Maud de Vries, the chief executive. "It's about urban health and a system where people are more active, healthy and cross each other's paths, in a good way."
"Km/h", not "kph"... (Score:3)
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If you are going to be fussy, it is properly km/hr.
You gave Kelvin metres per Planck constant.
But I use SI units including m/s, which are clearly superior to your non-SI hours.
eBike assist should be limited to 7m/s.
"km/h" (Score:2)
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It's worse than that, most people now say "miles an hour", including what passes for reporters and "journalists". So how about "kah"?
Re: "Km/h", not "kph"... (Score:2)
Re:"Km/h", not "kph"... (Score:4, Funny)
It's worse than that, most people now say "miles an hour", including what passes for reporters and "journalists". So how about "kah"?
This is something I could care less about.
I don't see why it's different than mopeds (Score:3, Interesting)
I lived in Amsterdam for a while, biking regularly from the outskirts into teh main city (several times a week).
The bike system there is awesome, lots of bikes but great bike lane support and separation from traffic, along with traffic that generally respected bikes.
However what I did NOT love was that mopeds used these same bike lanes all the time, especially in the evening. I'd be biking along at what I think was 15-20 MPH and a moped would come right past me at a much faster rate.
This was extremely frequent (and several years ago) so honestly I tend to think having more bikes going closer to teh speeds the mopeds are going in the bike lanes already, is maybe a good thing...
Not Just Amsterdam (Score:5, Insightful)
We get that all over here. Where I live here in the states e-bikes zipping by you has become the norm.
The trails we see them all were all meant for activities that were human or animal powered when built. That means generally slow. Walking, bicycling, horses. Buggies aren't allowed on these trails. No one was moving at speeds to severely injure people.
Now, there are impatient people cruising on them at road speeds on silent bikes. By the time you hear a tire behind you, they're already zipping by. My favorite was two months ago, when we had one 55 year old lady zip in between me and my daughter to wait at the stop-light 100 feet ahead, and then tell us we were in her way when we got to the stoplight with her.
I'm all for keeping motorized machines off of standard bike trails if they can't keep it safe. There is no shortage of roads.
--
It does not matter how slowly you go as long as you do not stop. - Confucius
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Where I live here in the states e-bikes zipping by you has become the norm.
Those are motorcycles. Motorcycles that local politicians don't have the balls to insist be licensed and driven as motorcycles. Because "M..m..muh bicycle friendly cities!" And violence by Critical Mass.
And then the signs that say "No motorized vehicles" will simply apply to everyone.
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Where I live here in the states e-bikes zipping by you has become the norm.
Those are motorcycles. Motorcycles that local politicians don't have the balls to insist be licensed and driven as motorcycles. Because "M..m..muh bicycle friendly cities!" And violence by Critical Mass.
And then the signs that say "No motorized vehicles" will simply apply to everyone.
Your theory doesn't hold water, bike-friendly means bike lanes, not riding on sidewalks, or going too fast on a mixed use trail.
Motor/no-motor is a dumb way of looking at it, there needs to be classes based on speed/weight/size. Some things are fine at walking speeds on sidewalks, some are fine at bike speeds in bike lanes. Having a motor is irrelevant.
Don't clog bike lanes with segways, don't ride bikes on sidewalks, don't ride your horse full speed down a walking path and don't even walk it on the sidew
Re:Not Just Amsterdam (Score:4, Insightful)
e-bikes are not "motorized vehicles"
They are if they aren't governed so that they can't exceed a maximum speed specified in laws governing them (usually 20 mph in the USA). I've seen them keep up with 45 mph traffic on roads. That's a motorcycle.
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usually 20 mph in the USA
In what seems to be more than half of the US [bosch-ebike.com], class 1 and class 2 e-bikes go up to 20 mph (well, the motor will help up to 20 mph -- you can go even faster, but the motor won't help), and class 3 e-bikes can go up to 28 mph. All are limited to 750 watts, which is one horsepower.
But yeah, if they're going 45 mph (without it being down a steep hill or something), that's illegal. But if there's an overall speed limit, it's 28 mph -- though it can vary from state to state.
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Depends on the type of e-bike. Some only assist with peddalling, i.e. you can't go faster than you can peddal.
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I'm 100% OK with requiring e-bikes have speed limiters. As it stands today it is way too easy to get overpowered electric motorcycles that happen to have pedals, thus qualify as e-bikes.
As a regular bike commuter and generally a fan of cycling I don't see why any electric bike should not be limited to 20-25 mph of electric assist.
I also wish we had more driver/rider training to be allowed to get out there. The amount of driver training is a joke, and the amount of cycling specific teaching provided is non
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"...thus qualify as e-bikes."
False. e-bike definitions vary widely, but having pedals along does not qualify an "electric motorcycle" as an e-bike.
"As a regular bike commuter and generally a fan of cycling I don't see why any electric bike should not be limited to 20-25 mph of electric assist."
Depending on where you live, that may well be the case anyway, but would you argue that your bike also be limited? Conventional bicycles can exceed 25 mph, so why shouldn't e-bikes? Also, whose interest is being se
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The point you refuse to see is "should not be limited to 20-25 mph of electric assist."; in other words the power turns off at 25 mph, or whatever speed. This would not stop you from coasting downhill at more that just like a regular bike.
If you are a world class athlete that can pedal uphill at 25 mph more power to you, but there are so few of those they aren't a traffic hazard.
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When I was in shape I could pretty easily hit 18 mph on a straight away and I wasn't even in that good of shape. That was after months of cycling 10 to 20 hours a week. I had a lot of experience on the bike by then.
The trouble with an e-bike going that kind of speed as you can have a novice jump on the bike and doing those kind of speeds long before they have the Handling skills let alone the comm
Motorcycles (Score:3)
Hey Amsterdam (Score:2)
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Good luck catching someone with a real ebike. I converted a fat tire bike and it does 37 mph currently, if I invest another $500, it will do 55+ mph.
Re:Hey Amsterdam (Score:4, Funny)
Good luck catching someone with a real ebike. I converted a fat tire bike and it does 37 mph currently,
My, how could police ever catch a stolen motorcycle? Nothing can go faster than that!!!
the only good thing about criminals is that most of them are really, really dumb.
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"if I invest another $500, it will do 55+ mph."
Unlikely, but won't stop you from claiming it does. If you want to go faster, get rid of the "fat tires", their purpose is to tell the world what an idiot you are.
Also, Amsterdam does care what fools like you do with your lame garbage, they face bicycle issues that you do not understand.
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does NOT care...
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The purpose of fat bikes is offroad, especially sand and snow, but they are also fun on normal mountain bike trails.
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You can lean over farther in a turn on fat tires, because you have more contact patch. Maybe learn something about bicycles before turning on rant mode. If skinny tires made sense on any level other than rolling resistance, then motorcycles would use them, but motorcycle tires have only gotten fatter throughout their history.
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".... it does 37 mph currently, if I invest another $500, it will do 55+ mph..."
And it will be completely unsafe to ride at those speeds. Even 37mph is too much for a bike. Yes, I know, Tour de France riders do far more going downhill on their tuned racing machines. That doesn't mean its safe to soup up a standard bike and routinely do the speeds you are talking about.
Get a proper motorbike most importantly with proper tires and good brakes, and with lights etc. It will still be a more dangerous form of
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even impound their ebike until the fine is paid,
We should do this with cars too. That would be fun!
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put up speed limit signs
Why? There's an active speed limit on every bicycle path. You don't need signs to tell people something that they know universally.
Victim Blaming (Score:2)
be 16 and have a driving licence, but illegal 'fat' bikes are just sold, youngsters under 16 use them on the roads going at 40kph, without a helmet. This isn't allowed, but there is no enforcement." She added that a plan by Amsterdam-Zuid district council to research whether child cyclists should be obliged to attach a flag to their bikes to improve road safety made her blood boil: "To think that the solution is that children need to have a flag is blaming the victim to the max."
So... under 16 year olds, who are driving without a helmet or license on makeshift mopeds are not the problem, and having a flag that's the equivalent of a "student driver" sticker that warns other drivers to be cautious around them is "victim blaming". Solid logic. /s
Sounds like a gun debate in the US, it's suddenly the fault of the tool itself, the bike is at fault and not the unlicensed unexperienced user hurting themselves or others on the road.
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The point of the flags is not to warn people to watch out for the dangerous kids, it's to shame dangerous dicks riding modified bikes illegally to maybe don't be dicks for a minute.
Neither is anyone blaming the tool. They are specifically blaming the unlicensed, unexperienced (sic) user. People are not saying they shouldn't exist, but that they should not be ridden where they're not allowed to be ridden.
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Technical solutions to social problems often fail (Score:3)
Restricted, light motorcycles are popular for economic reasons and horsepower is popular for fun. Of course people are modding slow vehicles to go faster. Porting moped cylinders and installing bore kits is ancient history.
If you want people to ride at the speed limit, enforce that instead of attempting a technical solution to a social problem.
Bike handling.. (Score:4, Funny)
One thing rarely mentioned is that most bikes handle quite differently at higher speeds..cornering at 20kph is quite different from cornering at 40kph, and can be a disaster for themselves or others.
We have a similar scourge of illegally modded bikes here in Victoria, BC, and they're a menace on bike paths. They catch up to other users rather quickly, but seem unable to properly control their bikes and making poor decisions like trying to pass when there's oncoming cyclists.
Since the riders are actually unable to pedal the bikes at those speeds, their 'top speed' is actually just that, and unlike on a regular bike if you need to speed up to complete a pass, etc, they're unable. As a fit cyclist, it's kind of funny to have one come up and try and pass, and I simply pick up my pace a bit, and they're stuck beside me and can't actually go any faster.
All solutions are bad (Score:2)
I have a high-speed e-bike (legal, governed to 45 km/h, classed as a moped in the Netherlands). When I have a choice between riding in a bike land and riding in the general-traffic lane, I'll choose the bike lane.
General traffic moves at 50 km/h, I tend to cruise at 40 km/h (those last 5 km/h add a lot of effort). That means cars want to overtake me - on a road that has been narrowed to make room for a bike lane, so it's too narrow to allow safe overtaking. That makes me an obstacle in the road, which I don
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This is like riding a bicycle on a sidewalk and complaining that the pedestrians are in the way. General traffic lanes are optimised for cars and bicycle lanes are optimised for bicycles.
You have an electric moped which is neither.
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well, yeah, that's part of the problem: there are more categories than traffic lanes. .nl gets on average one speeding ticket per year, and 0.001 ti
For some reason, mopeds and high-speed ebikes are limited to 45 km/h instead of 50, and high-speed ebikes are limited in motor output that practically limits them to 40 km/h, making them obstacles in general traffic lanes.
But what I object to most is that the solution always seems to be 'make everyone go slower'. Currently, every single driving license holder in
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Now Amsterdam is proposing yet more speed limits. Over the past 50 years, travel has become slower and slower as speed limits were lowered, and roads were modified with speed bumps, traffic circles etc. The amount of time wasted in traffic continues to grow.
You're looking in the wrong place. The problem isn't the traffic measures, it's the AMOUNT of traffic. The restrictions are a solution to the ever growing number of cars and journeys. London did the opposite and decided to be relentlessly pro-car until r
Weâ(TM)re talking about Amsterdam, people. (Score:5, Informative)
Americans responding to this story have obviously never stepped foot in Amsterdam. The matter described in this story only has relevance to Amsterdam, and really only within the city center. In addition, the rest of the Netherlands doesnâ(TM)t have the same density of bicycle riders as Amsterdamâ(TM)s city center. This is a story about something happening in a very small fraction of an entire country.
There is a shitload of weaving and the density is insane. Itâ(TM)s like watching ants on bikes. Near collisions happen all the time. The only reason it all works is because, physiologically, the bicyclists are only able to accelerate and deaccelerate so fast. Ebikes screw up the traffic equation because they accelerate way faster than normal bikes but donâ(TM)t slow down any faster. In addition, at higher speeds, their braking distances are way longer and their ability to avoid other bicyclists is reduced significantly. Itâ(TM)s a real problem.
American bicycle culture is nothing like Amsterdam bike culture, so mocking the whole âoeunlocked ebikeâ thing as oversensitive complaining is totally inappropriate.
Of course, what the story doesnâ(TM)t cover is the fact that most bikes in Amsterdam just end up being stolen, abandoned in a bike rack, or thrown in the canal.
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Everything you wrote is true! I'd just like to add my personal observation. Around Centraal Station, along the Prins Hendrikkade and both sides of the fietstunnel are constant swarms of cyclists. Until the new bike parking garages open in about a week, (with space for 22,000 bikes) I can't have a bike because there's nowhere to keep it, so I ride a skateboard, and I'm very careful and considerate of others with it.
If I were to lose control of my skateboard, the odds of it rolling under a bike wheel, and cau
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42 km/h is fairly tame (Score:3)
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You don't need a souped up bike for that - you can do that with any e-bike by adding power via the pedals - even with the ones which are regulated to 25 km/h.
No you can't. Above 25km/h the motor on any properly limited bike cuts out completely, and good luck peddling at 42km/h without any assist. That's hard enough to do on a racing bike.
Incidentally racing bikes have different rules on cycle path compared to standard city bikes in Amsterdam as well.
Afaik, cars are also able to go faster than the speed limit.
Cars have mixed speed limits to deal with. Bicycles don't. The "speed limit" on every cycle path in the Netherlands is fixed, and it was a limit higher than most people are capable of reaching without assistance.
But
The bottom line is mixed speed traffic (Score:2)
The bottom line is that sensible, safety oriented transport planning needs to separate traffic moving at different speeds and with different weights.
So you should never mix foot and bike traffic, never mix foot or bike and car and truck traffic. And never mix motorbikes or mopeds or fast moving e-bikes with pedal bikes or foot.
If you do, the immediate result is a rise in accidents and injuries, or if you mix bikes and trucks, deaths. As London has found.
Also, people don't realize that bikes are not a huge
30kph?? (Score:2)
Many many years ago, next to the Netherlands (Score:2)
Or you could just modify your slow one. Consequences if you were caught: You would get convicted for driving without a license, driving without insurance, and driving
Phat bikes for dirt roads (Score:2)
Their Menace Would be a Blessing for U.S. (Score:2)
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Yes they do and thank god. I want a boring commute to work, not one where I have to concern myself by some idiot turning infrastructure designed for low speed movement into a game of chance involving an ambulance.
Buy your e-bike. Supe it up to 11. Then stay the fuck away from congested dedicated cycle ways and no one will care what you do.
Re: If I ever get an e-bike (Score:3)
"Live a little"
Why don't you go take a jump from a tall building? Are you risk averse or something?
We're talking about souped up ebikes that don't have the brakes to handle the speed, being driven by kids that also drive on the footpaths and largely ignore other traffic rules as well. They've already caused deaths and its a matter of time before someone plows into a few small children and kills them. If you want to use a fat bike, go ahead. Just not in an area with unaware pedestrians in it.
Re:If I ever get an e-bike (Score:5, Insightful)
Not at all. Go enjoy yourself however you want, just not on a congested inner city cycle way where you can very much cause serious injury to others.
This here is no different from hotted up supercars deciding to turn the main road into a drag strip. There's a time and place for your enjoyment. When you become a risk to others expect "your enjoyment" to get banned.
Re:If I ever get an e-bike (Score:5, Insightful)
Most e-bikes nowadays are just electric motorcycles. They don't need pedalling. If you remove the limiter, you're driving a motorcycle in a bicycle lane. If we don't allow Porsche drivers to do what the fuck they want on the roads, or cyclists on sidewalks, we shouldn't allow electric motorcycles at high speeds in the bicycle lanes. That's all.
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That's exactly right. As a driver, I hate it when I'm on a 30 mph / 50 kph road and someone weaves between lanes at 1.5x my speed. It's dangerous.
Slower traffic is supposed to keep right. If people follow the rules no weaving is required.
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People should keep right exce
Re: If I ever get an e-bike (Score:2)
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If you think I should speed up or go on a slower lane because of you, then yo can go and f*** yourself.
Sure. Just don't ever think you are somehow contributing to road safety. You are every bit as much of a hazard as the people you complain about. I said education was lacking, you exemplify it.
Re: If I ever get an e-bike (Score:2)
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Most e-bikes nowadays are just electric motorcycles. They don't need pedalling.
Actually they are two different devices with two different designations. To be called an e-bike the acceleration very much needs to be defined by the pedal action.
But your main point I agree with obviously.
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Hmm...sounds more than familiar with respect to some people on this list that seem to get their panties in a wad any time you indicate you might push the speed limit or such in a car, that you drive faster than limits when situations present themselves that it is safe....that you don't always wear a fucking helmet.
I swear I've been puzzled more and more by people on the list here that seem to come unglued if you do anything with any sort of risk associated with it.
When did we as a people suddenly become so risk adverse?
This has been going on for some time, but really got kicked into overdrive with the Scamdemic. Many people are still unable to cope with the risk of infectious disease at all any more, and will isolate and mask for a long time now.
Re:If I ever get an e-bike (Score:4, Insightful)
Exactly. I've got no problem with you living a risky lifestyle.
But start asking other people to pay the price for your choices? That I have a problem with.
Speeding is especially bad because the change in risk is counterintuitively dramatic - the likely damage (energy released) in a in a collision is proportional to the square of the speed difference. In this case they're talking about an 80% speed increase, which means a 3.24x as much collision damage with something stationary, and even more so with someone traveling the same direction at lower speed (in which case you'll actually have two lower-energy collisions: bikes with each other, and then shortly later, bikes with the ground.)
If you hit someone at typical pedal bike speeds it's a good bet that everyone walks away with nothing worse than a few bruises and road burn. Sometimes someone will get unlucky, but mostly it's just an inconvenience.
But hit them at almost twice that speed and broken bones, damaged joints, cracked skulls, etc. become a likely outcome.
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you are conflating two different things:
the actions you take that pose a risk to others, vs the actions you take that pose a risk to yourself.
Don't want to wear a helmet? Ok cool. You're dumb, so you probably have no friends and family so if you die no one will care. I am not affected in anyway whatsoever by your decision to not wear a helmet.
Speeding down a city road though? Now I'm directly impacted by this. You're putting my life in danger because you're impatient. Now I know that you have no friends or family because who would want to be associated with someone as selfish as you?
You are conflating two different things:
reasonable actions an individual might choose to take to protect themselves vs. a belief that society can expect/obligate people to protect themselves. It appears to me that cayenne8 is primarily referring to the latter.
Wearing a seat belt in the car is objectively the correct action to take to reduce your individual risk of injury/death. Informing people and encouraging them to do the right thing is a social good.
But whenever there are arguments over laws that crimi
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Best read that again. They explicitly said they were fine with people endangering themselves. Just not allowing them to endanger other people
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Best read that again. They explicitly said they were fine with people endangering themselves. Just not allowing them to endanger other people
Best read the GP to my post again, and the rest of the subthread branching from mobby_6kl's post. That is the context of my reply.
Paraphrasing below
mobby: "if there's tech that artificially limits the speed of my device, I'll disable it."
-various other people: "yeah! hear hear!"
Cayenne8: "Some people have a psychological need to control others, and come unglued at the idea that you might choose to drive faster than the posted limit when it's safe to do so."
AC: "don't wear a helmet, I don't care. Exceeding
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What is it with people being upset that options exist that do not cater to them?
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Or you could buy one without the speed limiter which, as an adult you probably would do anyway.
But then you wouldn't be allowed on bike paths because they're for bikes not motorbikes.
This is the problem. E-bikes going at pretty much bicycle speed are basically bikes. Ebikes going at motorbike speed are basically motorbikes. The legislation predates ready availability of cheap lithium polymer batteries, neodymium magnets and staggeringly good mosfets for pennies.
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But then you wouldn't be allowed on bike paths because they're for bikes not motorbikes.
If you modify your bike, then it's not a bike anymore. It's a moped, but one that isn't licensed to drive on any road. Use it in your yard as much as you like. And if your modify your bike, and it is a moped, then you need a model driving license, and a moped insurance. If you cause an accident with this modified not-a-bike-anymore then you pay out of your own pocket. Don't know the rules in the Netherlands, but in Germany that debt will _never_ go away until it is paid. Drive into a Ferrari, 100,000 euros
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Don't know where you are, but my understanding is that many US states classify mopeds (especially those over a certain, anemic power) similar to scooters/motorcycles for licensing and/or insurance purposes.
Whereas here, (or the Netherlands from the sound of it) pedal bikes and ebikes limited to maximum bike path speeds typically require none of that.
You want a fast ebike, that's fine - just license and insure it like the light motorcycle it really is. And stay off the bike paths that are designed for kids,
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If you want a motorbike or moped, why not buy a legal one?
Are you breaking the law to save a few dollars by not having to pay for registration and insurance?
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You need a drivers license for both a moped and a motorbike in the Netherlands.
Also, people now need to wear a helmet to drive a 25km/h moped, and messing up your hair is worse than a cracked skull, apparently, so now they're using these souped-up e-bikes.
btw, "Amsterdam" will pretend to do something about this, but won't make a dent in the problem, that's how it always goes in Amsterdam, and how we ended up with a country-wide drug gang problem.
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You need a drivers license for both a moped and a motorbike in the Netherlands.
I don't see how riding an illegal motorbike without a license or helmet is any better than riding a legal motorbike without a license.
It should be a bigger fine if the motorbike is unregistered, no matter electric or petrol.
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A few benefits of looking like a normal e-bike spring immediately to mind:
- a license is unlikely to be expected unless they actually catch you going much too fast.
- traffic laws (especially as enforced) are usually very lax for bicycles, much closer to those for pedestrians - e.g. in many places bikes are not required to stop at stop signs, can travel on sidewalks, etc.
- bikes are allowed to use bike lanes and pedestrian-shared bike paths, which motorbikes are not.
Re:If I ever get an e-bike (Score:5, Insightful)
Well I don't personally have a problem with that, as long you don't go faster than an ebike is supposed to go in any particular place. For example, if a mixed use recreational path is limited to Class 1 and 2 ebikes, I don't have any problem with you riding there on a bike that can go over 20 mph, as long as you don't do that.
Your state, by the way, will take a dim view of your modification. They've drawn a line: below this is an ebike that doesn't require registration or licensing, and it is allowed in certain places,. Above this is an electric moped, which allowed in different places, and above *that* is an electric motorcycle, which allowed in yet a different set of places. If they catch you you'll be arrested for driving an unregistered motor vehicle (of the type which the law says requires registration).
The regulations aren't there to spoil your fun; if you want a more powerful ebike, you *can* get an electric moped or motorcycle then drive it anywhere it is permitted.
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I was just trying for a first post last night hence the shitpost level discourse.
I don't get why cyclists apparently can't be trusted not to ride at dangerous speeds on narrow paths in the town. Just... don't? My car isn't limited and I could do 200km/h around town, but just don't, because it would be very dangerous. Maybe they should get cops set up some speed traps and give out fines.
Other than making it less fun, the limits have very significant practical implications. In the EU the bikes are capped at 2
Re:If I ever get an e-bike (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't get why cyclists apparently can't be trusted not to ride at dangerous speeds on narrow paths in the town. Just... don't? My car isn't limited and I could do 200km/h around town,
You're not trusted either. Your car has a clearly visible registration plate so it can easily be read, there's probably a network of enforcement cameras or equivalent, a legal framework with graduated fines all the way up to jail time if you're reckless enough and you're forced to buy insurance in case you do something stupid.
Clearly people don't trust owners of powered vehicles to drive all that sensibly, and as can be seen with e-bikes when those provisions aren't in place, people aren't driving sensibly.
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I don't get why cyclists apparently can't be trusted not to ride at dangerous speeds on narrow paths in the town. Just... don't? My car isn't limited and I could do 200km/h around town, but just don't, because it would be very dangerous. Maybe they should get cops set up some speed traps and give out fines.
As an ebike owner... one of the tricky things with ebikes is that, if you pedal much (or ever use the throttle), they *will* take you up to their top speed, fairly easily (on the flat). For me, that means 32kph (~20MPH) -- holding to a lower speed requires a great deal of attention to (usually reducing) pedaling power, or changing the limiter settings. My ebike is legal (in Canada, in Ontario) for road work, but not in for some dedicated bike paths or parks, depending on the city. Limiting the maximum
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There's more than just the speed limit here though. There's also liability. Collisions at typical bike speeds are unlikely to result in anything worse than scrapes and bruises, unless you're very unlucky.
Collisions at motorbike speeds on the other hand make broken bones and joint a likely outcome. Which is why you have to license (=prove your safety training) and insure yourself. And why motorbikes aren't allowed on bike paths, etc - because assholes are going to asshole, and people will get hurt.
I see
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There could be an ambiguity on what e-bikes are. The vehicles referred here are "electrical-assisted bicycles" which requires (EU wide I believe) that the assistance is limited to 250 W and only in place below 25 km/h, as (per the definition) the main source of power must still be the human pedalling. Above 25 km/h, you still can pedal by your own force with no limitation other that the speed limit of the road you are travelling. These electrically-assisted bicycles can be used on public streets above a cer
Re: If I ever get an e-bike (Score:3)
I have a motorcycle licence for 30 years, live in EU and have driven over 200000km with different motorcycles. I can assure you full face helmet is not a requirement.
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Thanks for the correction. I had some references that it became compulsory after 11 kW of engine power, maybe this was mistaken.
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It needs to be CE certified "moto" helmet. But other than that, it can be open face, it can be half, it can be offroad, your choice. Or full face. At least in the countries I have lived, there is no conditions on power. I am not a lawyer, but i would assume these rules are largely uniform within EU.
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Its pretty much exactly what i did with mine. Half an hour with an oscilloscope, I had identified how the limiter worked on the controller, and bam, off it went.
Oh sure i DEFINATELY killed my warranty, buuut I also am smart enough to fix it myself if I explode it, and anyway I like fixing these things.
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You can bet your ass it's getting the speed limiter unlocked immediately
That's fine, just wear a helmet and don't ride it on a congested bicycle lane.
Also don't drive your car on the footpath, don't go for a leisurely swim at a container loading facility. etc. etc.
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You can bet your ass it's getting the speed limiter unlocked immediately
Gonna "rice" your bike, eh ?
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You can bet your ass it's getting the speed limiter unlocked immediately
Enjoy the short flight and the painful landing when my walking stick goes through the spokes of your wheels.
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Freedom belongs to the person with the biggest vehicle!
Damned right! [kinja-img.com]
Re: Damn people and their free will (Score:2)
Yep and all rules are correctly set to peoples limits and never too slow. Nobody exists who has any kind of skill or training above the rules and they are never miserable to be forced to crawl because someone else exists who cant live up to snuff.
Some people are big adults capable of making their own judgement calls. Actually having the brain that others try to guess the limits of kinda gives you an edge about where to draw the line right?
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The faster e-bikes exist and have different rules. They drive on the road, not the cyclepath, must have a more expensive insurance and the riders must wear a helmet. the slower e-bikes count as normal bikes. The souped up bike riders on the cyclepaths are a danger, to themselves and others.
Re: Damn people and their free will (Score:2)
I think in Canada they are probably still working things out too. To start with, what is the intersection point between an electric bicycle and an electric moped? How does law enforcement decide?
Just looking at page of the SPVM (Montreal police), they talk about motorists and cyclists, but there is no real discussion around mopeds or electric bicycles:
https://spvm.qc.ca/en/Fiches/D... [spvm.qc.ca]
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Yeah from here https://www.linkedin.com/pulse... [linkedin.com] 75% of drivers think they are above average. Sure there are some who are but who gets to decide? If someone crashes into you or your family and kills them do they get to say I think I am a good driver so I should have been able to go above the speed limit.
Rules are always general purpose, they try to cover as many people as possible with minimum admin. Sure some laws are stupid but driving a motorized vehicle at speed in a bike lane is not one of them. Hell y
Re: Damn people and their free will (Score:5, Insightful)
Safety rules are not about your skills, it is about everyone else that you put in danger. Not everyone has your obvious cat like reflexes to avoid your selfishly reckless behavior.
Do what you want on a private property, but in public try to act like you belong in society.
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We call these people stunt or race drivers and they go on special roads where they won't put people trying to get to work at extraordinary risk.
Re: Damn people and their free will (Score:4, Insightful)
In reality itâ(TM)s about speed limits, which is something cars have to deal with.
Speed limits in bike lanes have probably rarely been enforced, because most human powered bicycles rarely get to a speed where it is of a concern. Electric bicycles are changing that.
Here we have vehicles exceeding the design and intent of bicycle lanes. If people want to drive at road way speeds, then there are roads for that, conditions and licenses to go with it. It just means you forfeit your privilege of being treated as a low speed vehicle.
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I was trying to figure out why it's ebike specific with the speeds they're talking about. I run on the flat at about that "high" speed on my road bike anyway, though I tend to slow myself way down if I'm feeling like being dumb enough to use the multi-use paths in town. This seems much more like there's a few wildcard assholes that don't know how to read their situation, and rather than going after the offenders, someone wants to take on the entire universe over it.
Seems like the entire word is hellbent on
Re: barrier to entry (Score:2)