'The Pros and Cons of Software Running Your Car' (apnews.com) 107
This week the automotive site Edmunds discussed "the pros and cons of software running your car." One advantage is that software "allows for the introduction of features that wouldn't have been possible in the past.
Genesis, Hyundai's luxury arm, is using facial recognition and fingerprint scanning with its new all-electric GV60 crossover. The physical key is required to set up both functions, but after that the owner can basically operate the car as easily as a smartphone.
Established companies are jumping in as well. Last summer, Ford used software to enable its BlueCruise hands-free driving system in tens of thousands of F-150s and Mustang Mach-Es. The vehicles had the hardware for the system already installed; the over-the-air update made it complete. It applied to the cars wirelessly, without the need for a dealer visit. Maintenance is another potential advantage. These highly digital vehicles can monitor preventive and predictive maintenance and even diagnose problems from afar. It takes the guesswork out of what could go wrong and what needs to be adjusted without a visit to a mechanic shop or dealership....
The downside of this new tech.... Issues that PC users are all too familiar with can crop up in cars. It might be a touchscreen that goes blank and is inoperable while driving, glitchy operation of certain controls, or advanced driver assist features that aren't as fully vetted as they should be before being added to vehicles. The risks of software crashes and privacy breaches are real issues. It's not outside the realm of possibility for someone with malicious intentions to take over the operation of a car and cause damage. Also, some experts are both applauding the technology and advising caution as it relates to personal data privacy: the more data collected from drivers, the more potential for hacking.
Their conclusion? "Software will continue to evolve to change the vehicle ownership experience....
"But technology-averse shoppers will likely prefer a vehicle with a more traditional design, which might include buying used."
Established companies are jumping in as well. Last summer, Ford used software to enable its BlueCruise hands-free driving system in tens of thousands of F-150s and Mustang Mach-Es. The vehicles had the hardware for the system already installed; the over-the-air update made it complete. It applied to the cars wirelessly, without the need for a dealer visit. Maintenance is another potential advantage. These highly digital vehicles can monitor preventive and predictive maintenance and even diagnose problems from afar. It takes the guesswork out of what could go wrong and what needs to be adjusted without a visit to a mechanic shop or dealership....
The downside of this new tech.... Issues that PC users are all too familiar with can crop up in cars. It might be a touchscreen that goes blank and is inoperable while driving, glitchy operation of certain controls, or advanced driver assist features that aren't as fully vetted as they should be before being added to vehicles. The risks of software crashes and privacy breaches are real issues. It's not outside the realm of possibility for someone with malicious intentions to take over the operation of a car and cause damage. Also, some experts are both applauding the technology and advising caution as it relates to personal data privacy: the more data collected from drivers, the more potential for hacking.
Their conclusion? "Software will continue to evolve to change the vehicle ownership experience....
"But technology-averse shoppers will likely prefer a vehicle with a more traditional design, which might include buying used."
"monitor preventive and predictive maintenance" (Score:4, Insightful)
Yeah, no thanks. They pretend this is a "benefit", but it doesn't exist to help the customer - it's yet another intrusive attempt to get you to spend money at the dealership. They're not gonna be offering to help you make an appointment with your preferred independent repair shop.
Con: pervasive surveillance (Score:2)
That includes the maintenance monitoring.
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Small upsides and big downsides. Brilliant.
Re: "monitor preventive and predictive maintenance (Score:3, Informative)
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I still doubt it, schedule maintenance for oil change, coolant flush, Trans flush, etc... usually specify a time period OR so much mileage done with the car.
You know, those products also lose their properties over time even if the car isn't used at all. It's not like if they were still in the can they were delivered in and even in the can, they still lose their properties over time but slower than if in a car. Even gasoline will go stale if not used, even if it's kept a big gasoline tank at the station and
Re: "monitor preventive and predictive maintenanc (Score:2)
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My 2008 Audi already does this with no need for a cloud connection. Variable service interval depending on usage pattern as monitored by the ECU, the dash notifies you when it's time for a service.
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Right, cars only need only enough software to run electronic fuel injection and spark!
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No way man. Carburetors were so reliable. Nothing ever went wrong with them. And distributor caps. Bulletproof. Literally.
Re: "monitor preventive and predictive maintenance (Score:1)
...but do it in a less retarded fashion.
It's distinctly possible that that's as non-retarded as he's able to do.
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No way man. Carburetors were so reliable. Nothing ever went wrong with them. And distributor caps. Bulletproof. Literally.
Given my past experiences with both... I suspect (and hope!) you're being facetious there.
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I admit to never having actually shot a distributor cap, although I almost witnessed such a thing when a friend's classic VW bug kept shaking its cap off while driving.
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What was your point?
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You know it's reliable when someone pops up and tells you an anecdote about how their lawnmower or vintage motorbike uses one and has never had a problem.
You should switch that thing over to burning water though. That's the real reason big engine suppressed the carb.
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Perhaps I should have said "bulletproof, Oracly?"
I'll keep away from this kind of vehicle software (Score:2, Troll)
A vehicle from this well known American car brand refused to move by failing [or refusing] to disengage the brake because "software " determined the driver had not pressed the brake pedal!
Needless to say, I will avoid such vehicles for as long as I can.
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I'd mod you up if I could, but you reminded me of Michael Hastings, where it may have been the other way around.
On the general topic of "fly by wire" reducing pilots to birds in a "glass cage", Nicholas Carr wrote a quite interesting book that I recommend strongly. He did say quite a bit about self-driving cars, too.
Wow, that one certainly hit the trolls' censorious nerves. Must be onto something, eh?
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Do you mean disengage the electronic emergency brake actuator? Break pedal sensors are common and have served whatever function the car maker has desired for a while
Re:I'll keep away from this kind of vehicle softwa (Score:5, Insightful)
A smartphone, isn't a car. (Score:5, Interesting)
"...the owner can basically operate the car as easily as a smartphone."
When a smartphone can last 10 years or more, then perhaps we can start logically comparing smartphones and cars.
Until then, good luck selling that $40K rolling smartphone to whomever the hell you assume can afford all that "technology" you have to offer that no one is asking for, as if "technology" ever makes anything cheaper. They can hardly sell the overpriced shit they're making now. Now they've got parking lots full of outdated old-and-busted $35K Boomermobiles that still come with keys and handles.
Not surprised auto makers are going this way regardless of the reality. Doubling down on stupidity is now a fashion statement, and fitting for a society too offended to see it any other way.
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Combine that with all the components that used to made of metal that are now plastic. Oil pans, intake manifolds, and even valve covers are plastic now. That shit is not going to last.
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Re:A smartphone, isn't a car. (Score:4, Insightful)
I'd like to ask about the universe where turning a key isn't "as easy as operating a smartphone".
The phrase "turnkey" itself being a term for idiot-operable. An act made easy for simpletons. The kind dazzled by buzzword bingo and smartphones!.
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I'd like to ask about the universe where turning a key isn't "as easy as operating a smartphone".
In our universe full of voice-activated light switches, I'd like to know why you're questioning the multi-trillion dollar global market we call Fucking Lazy.
Light switches are pretty damn easy to operate too. GenZZZ has a solution for that "problem". No one under 30 knows what a "turnkey' is, because we've generally made everything "idiot-operable", to include simpleton-proof UIs a toddler can easily operate.
Ironically, even making a car turnkey isn't quite that simple anymore. Just ask thousands of (fo
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"...the owner can basically operate the car as easily as a smartphone."
When a smartphone can last 10 years or more, then perhaps we can start logically comparing smartphones and cars.
Until then, good luck selling that $40K rolling smartphone to whomever the hell you assume can afford all that "technology" you have to offer that no one is asking for, as if "technology" ever makes anything cheaper. They can hardly sell the overpriced shit they're making now. Now they've got parking lots full of outdated old-and-busted $35K Boomermobiles that still come with keys and handles.
Not surprised auto makers are going this way regardless of the reality. Doubling down on stupidity is now a fashion statement, and fitting for a society too offended to see it any other way.
A car with actual handles that can work when the battery is dead is not a Boomermobile, but thank you for you ageist and jerky comment.
Re: A smartphone, isn't a car. (Score:2)
I wouldn't worry about jerks like him, hes probably some gen z'er whose only experience of driving is on his xbox.
Re: A smartphone, isn't a car. (Score:2)
Are you really so angry? Why?
If you donâ(TM)t like it, donâ(TM)t buy it. I, on the other hand, enjoy the tech the german manufactures are putting in their cars (though in some ways I wish theyâ(TM)d learn a bit from Tesla) and I certainly am asking for more of it - paying for it, too. So âoeno oneâ is at least a wee bit exaggerated.
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Apple succeeded because they did their tech better than the rest. Go ahead and believe in your fashion bullshit, and then go to a physics conference and see all the Mac. Last we heard, physicists don't give a damn about fashion.
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Apple succeeded because they did their tech better than the rest. Go ahead and believe in your fashion bullshit, and then go to a physics conference and see all the Mac. Last we heard, physicists don't give a damn about fashion.
Apple succeeded because one of their most profitable markets just so happened to be "home" for them, in a country where a massive portion of GDP is completely dependent on addicting citizens to buying shit constantly, with debt being a fucking badge of honor.
Last the planet observed, physicists are still human, and therefore fully capable of being attention whores just like every other addict, so spare us your bullshit.
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How many years of software updates do you get?
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d'EU is making a lot of this mandatory (Score:4, Interesting)
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Re:Full of ads (Score:4, Insightful)
Car as a service (CaaS) (Score:4, Insightful)
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'The Pros and Cons of Software Running Your Car' (Score:1)
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Go and tune 4 carbs then report back
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Breaking down, cleaning, reassembling and adjusting a carburetor is not difficult. And you can do it at home with parts from an auto store.
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Personally, I'd rather have a computer monitoring the crankshaft and cam positions, the timing of the spark, and the pulse width of the injectors and the concentrations of oxygen in the exhaust then having to ever touch a carb again!
I don't think having a set of microcontrollers doing engine functions is really what we're on about though, but rather invasive decision making
The code for even simple automotive systems is just massive. I can't imagine being a developer on those.
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Funny, been on a tear cleaning up the shop lately, getting rid of old stuff we'll never use. Found an old OEM aluminum intake for a carb for a SBC. Had it up on FB Marketplace for
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By the way, your/our definition of not difficult is not the standard definition. I just watched 3 people pull up to a gas station to put air in their tires and all but one deflated their tire because they never realized you had to push the button to turn the air pump on.
Euphemisms galore (Score:5, Insightful)
The downside of this new tech.... Issues that PC users are all too familiar with can crop up in cars. It might be a touchscreen that goes blank and is inoperable while driving, glitchy operation of certain controls, or advanced driver assist features that aren't as fully vetted...
To those of us in the business of writing computer programs, this is a poorly executed attempt to dance around the following underlying truth: consumer grade software is written by low quality code monkeys who are paid a pittance and have little of the training in the non-coding disciplines like formal mathematics, dynamical systems, mechanical or electronics engineering, etc, that are necessary to write *correct* computer programs for operating moving machinery in safety-critical contexts.
In many jurisdictions, you need to be a PE to program a PLC if that PLC happens to be running an elevator or traffic light. Is the same level of rigor required for *every* possible execution path in your car's computer?
I'll wait while y'all explain to me why I'm wrong even though I'm right.
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Ah, no worries, we'll fix it up with the next update. Right?!?
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Re: Euphemisms galore (Score:1)
Yes and no. Are there any bugs in the elevator control system at my workplace? Not too likely because the logic is simple enough to not require anything too extravegant to run on. Are there any bugs in my car's ecu? Again unlikely because while it is certainly more complex, it also has much more heritage and time to have identified anything relevant.
But when you glom extra "stuff" that touches the critical bits and have it written by people who've never touched or understood the way to approach embedded stu
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formal mathematics, dynamical systems,
I think you meant to say "dynamic systemicals"?
Pros... of Running Software on Your Car? (Score:3)
Well basically none of your semiconductor parts would work without it. Pretty dumb question
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In the headline, "running" clearly means "driving" your car, as opposed to "running in" your car.
So no, not a dumb question.
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Well basically none of your semiconductor parts would work without it.
My old truck has solid state controlled emissions systems. All discrete components (maybe a few op-amps). It works just fine.
Missing a key component (Score:4, Insightful)
The con list is missing a key component. (My choice of the word "con" is also ironic). It won't be very long before every feature in your car will be subscription-based including the ability to drive at certain times of the day or to certain locations or via certain routes. Plenty of people will be ok with that particularly those who have to pay tolls but more disturbingly those who are willing to pay to use a special lane like in southern California.
Just wait (Score:5, Insightful)
At some point the car manufacturer will require you to have certain "features" enabled so they can monitor and track everything you do and sell it. If you attempt to disable these "features" the car won't work.
Guaranteed.
But here's the question no one answers. What happens when the software doesn't work? The above blurb about using facial recognition or a thumb print to get into and operate the car you bought. What happens when, not if, it doesn't do what it's been programmed to do? Do you call the company and tell them to send someone out to get it fixed at their expense? Do they try to "update" the software while you wait? What happens if they tell you your car is bricked because some piece, or pieces, of software are in a state which won't allow the car to work? Do they give you a new car? Replace some components? How much will that cost you because they screwed up?
As I said in another thread about Mercedes, good for them if they want to burden their drivers with this crap, but I'm not going to "use" any of it. Give me a stick shift which I know will work each time, every time, and that's all I need (to drive). Get your dirty sticking software off me.
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At some point the car manufacturer will require you to have certain "features" enabled so they can monitor and track everything you do and sell it. If you attempt to disable these "features" the car won't work.
Guaranteed.
And yet the only real "guarantee" that is required to ensure yours happens, is a society stupid enough to accept and pay an obscene price for that bullshit wholesale.
If you thought we should be worried about the impact of a braindead society full of of tech addicts, it's far too late for those concerns now. Guaranteed.
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Probably under warranty, bring it to the dealer and eventually they'll fix it. Might be a year and the cat might go missing, the battery is dead, which costs to reprogram and isn't covered by the warranty and those brakes that you abused by not using also will need replacing, maybe the tires too. But they will fix the car lock eventually.
Note, those are based on headlines here in Canada, seems the dealer is not responsible for your vehicle while sitting in their lot and no, they aren't going to start and mo
Security (Score:3)
The advantage of going to a garage for updates is they're really hard to exploit en mass.
I'm sure the car companies will try really hard to secure their 'over the air' update system, but that's a damn juicy target embedded in a non-tech company.
What happens if the GRU or a ransomware gang manages to push out a malicious (breaks don't work 10% of the time) update to one of these system? How much damage does that cause?
I do suspect the risk is lower than it sounds since every OS, including Windows, Apple, Android, iOS, every Linux distro would have this same problem and I haven't heard of someone managing to push out a malicious update yet. I suspect there's some fairly simple multiple key & air gaped server safeguards that practically eliminate the risk, but still, I hope they're being suitably paranoid.
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Software as a concept is not the issue (Score:4, Interesting)
It's the quality or the reputation and perception of that software's quality. Many of us interface with equipment that costs a lot more than a car and features these same concepts of updates, feature additions, maintenence reminders and all the things that are mentioned can all be good, the concept of these things themselves is not as issue. The immediate thought however is the perception that these things will be used to scam, exploit and be of general loq quality (and considering the software and interafaces designed by car companies in particular this is hardly unfounded or unjustified).
I think we get caught up in an ironically luddite type response of "I don't want this stuff in my car" when really if it was done well I probably would like it in my car. Say what you want about Tesla but they have a model of doing this that seems pretty good and customers seem to get added value over time from the updates.
People made similar arguments about the move from carberators to electronic fuel injection ("I have to use a computer to adjust my fuel trims?!"). If a car has a scummy model of selling and the software seems shit, don't buy it, same way I would buy a Toyota over a BMW because the BMW is going to be leaking form every pore in 100k.
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We would have never made it to the moon if the software quality was as terrible as what is dumped into cars these days.
Give me tactile buttons I can feel for the common stuff like volume, station, air conditioning, etc, so I can keep my eyes on the road. Make it easier to dim the touchscreen so it isn’t blinding my night vision. Maybe make it possible to reset the oil change alert without googling a youtube video.
I am steadily turning into a luddite as the rate of change for the sake of change make
Luddites? (Score:3)
Lots of Luddite comments here.
The fact of the matter is that everything is run by software today... from your toaster to your car. You can't go back to the 50s as much as you would like to.
The issue is the quality of the software.
Unfortunately, most auto manufacturers suck at software. They mostly have been farming it out to an array of subcontractors of dubious quality and, of course, there is no high level integration. They have belatedly realized that software is important and are trying to bring it in house. Mostly they are not successful. VW just had a disaster with their software development efforts and had to abandon a multi-billion dollar investment and start over.
Tesla seems to be the only company to be getting it right. Perhaps because they started as a tech software focused company and not a traditional auto maker farming things out. I've had Teslas for over 8 years. They get regular over the air updates (never a problem with the update process) which add functionality. Never a charge for software updates. The cars keep getting better every year... even the old ones. It's basically a simple electric motor and battery plus lots of sensors driven by computers. There might be a screw up someday but it hasn't happened yet.
(BTW, I've spent $0 on maintenance in 8 years.)
Re:Luddites? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: Luddites? (Score:2)
Software is very light weight.
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Re: Luddites? (Score:2)
How much do they weigh?
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Tesla recalls nearly 12,000 U.S. vehicles over software communication error [indiatimes.com]
Caused by a software update.
Re: Luddites? (Score:2)
One day regression. This is how good software works.
There is any "pros"? (Score:1)
Here's one reason: (Score:2)
"I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that."
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As a mutual Old, I agree with you.
It's not just about the software functionality, it's about the fact that they can turn it off remotely.
We've seen that happen dozens of times in the last 2 years where people's power, gas, etc. is being shut off remotely "for the greater good" during inclement weather and depending on unreliable green grid power.
They don't want people to be independent, they want people to be dependent, trackable and controllable.
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I'd be more likely to agree with you if it wasn't for DEI, the last 2 years, and the WEF bragging of efforts to depopulate and impoverish the West.
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retrofit (Score:2)
My answer to the last sentence is to retrofit a Bosch motor drive system to my older ute.
Best of both worlds, fully manual, minimal computer / modern efficient electric vehicle.
Ya, no. (Score:3)
Genesis, Hyundai's luxury arm, is using facial recognition and fingerprint scanning with its new all-electric GV60 crossover. The physical key is required to set up both functions, but after that the owner can basically operate the car as easily as a smartphone.
I don't use facial recognition or fingerprint scanning to unlock my cell phone and certainly wouldn't with my car -- or want to pay for the ability.
The downside of this new tech.... It might be a touchscreen that goes blank and is inoperable while driving, ...
Which could be a HUGE issue depending on what that touchscreen controls.
Crashes not necessarily a comparative disadvantage (Score:2)
While it's true that software can crash, and this can be a serious problem, it's not necessarily worse or "different" from bugs or glitches in old-school controls.
Consider the air conditioning system's "mix door" which controls the proportion of hot and cold air that is sent to the vents. Old-school physical controls often fail for this mix door, resulting in the system being unable to properly heat or cool the car. While it's not a crash, it's a real glitch that can cause the same inconvenience as a crash.
Keep your eyes on the shiny object ... (Score:2)
Speaking of software on cars and robbery
Someone like me wrote the code. (Score:1)
Every time I get in a plane I have a moment of realization that someone like me wrote the code that helps fly it. Then I order a stiff drink. I assume it will be the same with cars soon.
Re:Someone like me wrote the code. (Score:5, Funny)
Old Boeing joke.
Q: What weights nothing. But when loaded onboard an airplane, can keep it from taking off?
A: Software.
the downward slope is real and obvious (Score:1)
Does right to repair include ... (Score:3)
The right to disable features?
Easy factory reset.
Turn off GPS, phone home, internal cameras and microphones? Surveillance devices.
My personal vehicle history (Score:4, Interesting)
I've had about 30 vehicles in my life at this point, including bikes. I've almost always sold them for more than I bought them for (usually because I'm silly and put a lot of money into my vehicles, and/or find some really good deals). The vehicles I've had over the past decade or so:
* 1984 Chevy K5 Blazer (diesel). Simple to fix, simple to operate. Very, very little to go wrong. (Sold it because it had cold start issues and I had no garage.)
* 2005 Yukon. Fun vehicle, had quadsteer and fit the need. Sluggish and slow, and I spent a lot of time driving on winding roads to my house, so I sold it and...
* 2010 Land Rover Range Rover Sport. Fantastic vehicle, decent tech.... extremely expensive to maintain, and had lots of exotic systems I wasn't able to spend the time fixing myself. Got hailed out and...
* 2016 GMC Sierra. Didn't like it, too modern and lots of little things going on... sold it at for a steep profit in 2020, and bought...
* A 1990 K5 Blazer with a replacement LS swap. Very, very little to go wrong except for the normal vehicle wear and tear and can all (mostly) be fixed with wrenches and a welder.
Long story short... I want something that's easy to fix and features be damned. I can put 12v to any stereo or an after market system for much, much less than the OEM head unit, and it'll be markedly newer and of a higher quality.
Unfortunately, you can't just isolate the "full integrated" automotive software to the luxury vehicles. Yes, it's really, really nice to have all that if you spend hours a day in your car. But if you don't? It's a big expense. I don't know how people do it.
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Software has been running cars for many decades (Score:2)
Never heard of the Engine controller? Transmission controller? Key components have been controlled by software going back to the 70s. What seems to be changing is the complexity and more control is being given over to a glorified "central" controller. Most car manufacturers explicitly went out of their way to prevent this sort of thing.... keeping specific control units with specific purposes (like microservices are used by enterprises today) on their own high speed bus to communicate between them where nee
Software sold separately (Score:2)
Crushed for Lack Parts and Outdated Software (Score:3)
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Subscription Services for the software bothers me (Score:1)
Software has been running our cars for decades (Score:2)
Ever since electronic fuel injection was widely adopted, software has been running our cars.
What is different now is that car companies can disable our cars. That is a totally different thing.