Slashdot is powered by your submissions, so send in your scoop

 



Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
×
Software IT

BMW Owner Discovers Car's Software Update Won't Install When Parked on Incline (thedrive.com) 127

An anonymous reader shares a report: BMW i4 owner was rightfully puzzled when their car flashed a strange alert on the screen, saying its parking spot was "too steep" to perform an over-the-air software upgrade. How does that happen? And why is it a problem in the first place? As Clare Eliza found out, it simply isn't possible to remotely update any of the i4's software if the car isn't parked on flat ground. And instead of allowing the operator to override this, it will wait until you physically move it somewhere more level to continue. As it turns out, BMW doesn't have one singular reason why the vehicle can't perform this task on an incline. Rather, the limitation is there as a safety blanket.

"The vehicle has all sorts of sensors (pitch, yaw, lateral and longitudinal acceleration and deceleration, etc.) that allow it to understand its orientation, so it knows when it's on an incline," a BMW spokesperson told The Drive. "It's likely a catchall, every-worst-case-no-matter-how-unlikely scenario safety precaution to try to prevent any chance of the vehicle moving should the programming be interrupted or go wrong." Essentially, it's there just in case something unexpected happens; it's better to plan for the worst, after all.

This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

BMW Owner Discovers Car's Software Update Won't Install When Parked on Incline

Comments Filter:
  • Yeah... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by tgpo ( 976851 ) on Friday February 03, 2023 @10:03AM (#63262187)
    The future is dumb.
    • Ok Ryan George
      https://www.youtube.com/playli... [youtube.com]

    • The future is not only dumb, it's scary.

      Because my question is this: in what dystopian world does a car manufacturer allow itself to modify my car without my consent after I've purchased it? Even more dystopian: how is a car manufacturer even allowed to sell cars that phone home in the first place?

    • Please leave the vehicle, walk around it, re-enter the vehicle, and try again.

  • by Junta ( 36770 ) on Friday February 03, 2023 @10:10AM (#63262201)

    I understand being cautious, but the specific thing this would protect against would be either the software glitching out and disengaging the parking brake, or, alternatively, the drivetrain going into 'neutral' while the operator has not engaged the parking brake.

    It seems that if you are worried about that sort of thing happening, things are dubious enough to also worry about it deciding to go into 'drive' and start moving of it's own accord even on a flat surface.

    • by thegarbz ( 1787294 ) on Friday February 03, 2023 @10:19AM (#63262231)

      I understand being cautious, but the specific thing this would protect against would be either the software glitching out and disengaging the parking brake, or, alternatively, the drivetrain going into 'neutral' while the operator has not engaged the parking brake.

      I'd be inclined to say the bigger concern is that a software update is taking place and there's a potential to zero sensors which would give them an incorrect reading going forward. It makes sense to only apply changes like this in a "known" state.

      • by mysidia ( 191772 )

        I'd be inclined to say the bigger concern is that a software update is taking place and there's a potential to zero sensors ..

        If the update has the possibility to erase calibration data, Then it's not the answer: the vehicle should be designed so that next time it starts the sensors will be presumed to be incorrect and require a calibration, And remain in that state until it has been done - then prompt the person to ensure the vehicle is stopped on a flat surface at that point in time before opening

        • If the update has the possibility to erase calibration data, Then it's not the answer: the vehicle should be designed so that next time it starts the sensors will be presumed to be incorrect and require a calibration

          Indeed. Because we all know telling the user to park level before applying the update is so much better than having to force the user to go through an actual calibration process.

          Good idea. What do propose for the next update? Brick the car until the user solves a Rubik's cube? I know this is Slashdot, a place for nerds and tinkerers, the kind of place where we want every option displayed all at once on a single page, but BMW has actual normal customers and making them jump through hoops is not customer frie

          • Nerds and tinkers would realize that something like programming a modern car would be incredibly complex and have side affects and conditions we couldn't even imagine. Unfortunately the site has been taken over by .....other.
      • I'd be inclined

        I see what you did there...

    • I'd personally question the need to OTA update anything to do with the drivetrain or brakes. I don't know if it's "common practice" or not, but it seems like it's the sort of thing that a BMW specialist ought to be able to do with a USB stick and some way to test it afterwards.

      What absolutely should be OTA updated on a regular basis is the infotainment system, and other "soft" control features. They're (hopefully) non-critical in the sense that if the whole thing utterly fails in a heap, the car should stil

      • by mysidia ( 191772 )

        What absolutely should be OTA updated on a regular basis is the infotainment system, and other "soft" control features.

        Yes... absolutely. My feeling is that the Critical control should be Required to be separate from Infotainment systems and user-facing features. In other words it should become Legally required to segregate "Critical logic" and require Certification of the updates to that portion with disclosure of the source code of that portion to safety authorities.

        The Critical logic would be a

        • we can't do that as that source code will show our dealer server lock in code

        • In other words it should become Legally required to segregate "Critical logic" and require Certification of the updates to that portion with disclosure of the source code of that portion to safety authorities.

          Assuming you don't mind waiting years between updates.

    • but the specific thing this would protect against would be either the software glitching out and disengaging the parking brake

      Which is why a manual parking brake is superior and should be required on all vehicles.

      things are dubious enough to also worry about it deciding to go into 'drive' and start moving of it's own accord even on a flat surface.

      This can't happen if you drive a stick shift.

      Funny how the more "advanced" we make things the more dangerous and accident prone they become.
    • by vux984 ( 928602 )

      It seems that if you are worried about that sort of thing happening, things are dubious enough

      You are doing a firmware update. Who knows what initialization and recalibration you are going to run. Why wouldn't you just require a controlled environment with the vehicle off & level.

      I think its disingenuous to assume that a requirement for a level environment for a firmware update implies 'dubious' development practices.

      Maybe an update might need to initialize and re-calibrate the hydraulic sensors on the brakes and need to release and engage them as part of the calibration.

      Maybe an update might ne

    • by tlhIngan ( 30335 ) <[ten.frow] [ta] [todhsals]> on Friday February 03, 2023 @02:57PM (#63263185)

      I understand being cautious, but the specific thing this would protect against would be either the software glitching out and disengaging the parking brake, or, alternatively, the drivetrain going into 'neutral' while the operator has not engaged the parking brake.

      It seems that if you are worried about that sort of thing happening, things are dubious enough to also worry about it deciding to go into 'drive' and start moving of it's own accord even on a flat surface.

      Yeah, but if you're on a hill, and parked inappropriately (do you turn the steering wheel the right way when pointed up or down a hill that ensures your vehicle will not roll down if the brake fails?), it's more dangerous if the car gets in a weird state and something fails.

      It's eliminating a variable. Things like the parking brake, even if it's software controlled often have a mechanical interlock that keeps it from moving - this is well understood fail-safe behavior. In fact, chances are the computer has far less control over a lot of the safety systems than you might believe. For example - the door locks. The computer can tell the door locks to lock or unlock, but just because the computer tells the doors to lock, doesn't mean the doors will lock - there's a mechanical override allowing you to unlock the doors regardless of the state of the computer.

      Likewise, the parking brake will have similar things - the software can tell the parking brake to apply itself or to release, but the mechanical override will ensure that it doesn't change state without user input - either through a mechanical linkage or other thing. (This is considered a critical item as brake failure can lead to serious injury or death).

      But despite fail-safes, the other key element is to not try to test it if you can avoid it. You may be certain that the brakes will hold on the hill, and can probably even determine if the car is parked appropriately since you can detect the steering wheel angle. It doesn't hurt to look at the angle and simply not do it - even if the software glitches out and you end up relying on the failsafe to prevent accidentally hurting someone, it's still far better to avoid that state entirely. The failsafe is there and you know it works, but why risk it? Why risk the chance of software glitching out and having to rely on the failsafe?

      An update is a completely optional thing. Unless there's an urgent need to have it applied immediately, if it can be deferred until the car is in a much safer position, then the best action is to defer it. On level ground, at least you're also not relying on the failsafe as much so if things do go screwy, you also have the fact that the car will likely just stay put thanks to friction and inertia.

      Remember, in safety critical systems, and cars have a huge list of safety critical items, these things have been thought of. There are whole fault trees that are examined and evaluated to ensure the system minimizes potential risk of injury when encountering the fault. So a fault tree during software update might involve the software glitching out and possibly causing the parking brake to fail. This is mitigated by the mechanical linkages that prevent software from releasing the brakes without the user undergoing positive control (e.g., in most vehicles you must depress the brake pedal before the parking brake will release). However, if the event was potentially triggered by something that can be deferred like an update, then the best course of action is to not even test the failsafe and just not do the update. If you can't defer it, then fine, do the update - it may be for a critical system and it's worth the risk in order to lower the overall risk.

      It's nothing to do with software, and all about minimizing risk. These systems have failsafes on purpose. But one should not be relying on the failsafes to begin with, so if the update wasn't necessary to improve safety of the vehicle (e.g., a recall fixed with a software update), the best course of action is

    • It seems that if you are worried about that sort of thing happening, things are dubious enough to also worry about it deciding to go into 'drive' and start moving of it's own accord even on a flat surface.

      I doubt it updates with the engine running.

  • by aaarrrgggh ( 9205 ) on Friday February 03, 2023 @10:12AM (#63262209)

    The parking brake is presumably electronically controlled and a software update could change its stare momentarily. Not at all surprising, but it might catch me off guard the first time.

    • It's not surprising, just terrible.

    • by burni2 ( 1643061 )

      Your guess is very likely very "hot", as your brake discs would be when you drove in Beverly "HILLS" and then decide to do your Software Update standing on a hill, and during the update-time your "hot" brake discs could shrink (thermal).

      • by Zak3056 ( 69287 )

        Your guess is very likely very "hot", as your brake discs would be when you drove in Beverly "HILLS"

        Where I come from isn't all that great
        My automobile is a piece of crap
        The firmware update is a little whack
        And BMW says the problem's me

        I didn't go to the dealer
        Cause they will just overcharge me
        Why should I
        I ain't nobody
        Got nothing in my pocket

    • by Thelasko ( 1196535 ) on Friday February 03, 2023 @11:39AM (#63262497) Journal

      The parking brake is presumably electronically controlled and a software update could change its stare momentarily. Not at all surprising, but it might catch me off guard the first time.

      Exactly this. People that are complaining about this have never done embedded system development. Updating embedded controls often puts software into strange states momentarily. Historically, software updates have been performed by a trained technician in a service bay. Now the vehicle is doing this automatically, so BMW understandably put in some safeguards.

    • by gweihir ( 88907 )

      Yep. Sounds like really crappy engineering where critical functionality is not hard-coded but relies on software. Probably best to stay away from these cars.

  • by Walking The Walk ( 1003312 ) on Friday February 03, 2023 @10:13AM (#63262211)
    Maybe after an update the sensors are re calibrated, so they want you as close to level as possible when to ensure they zero out to a level value.
  • Software-controlled parking brakes are one reason.

    • Literally every other sensor having some form of calibration or zero set in software is another.

    • Software controlled parking brakes are one good reason to never buy that disaster-in-waiting.

      Try to explain THAT to your insurance when that car suddenly starts rolling into a busy 4-lane highway.

      • Pretty sure your insurance already accounts for this feature - if it was a problem manufacturers wouldn't be doing it.

        I will also make the argument that a car that automatically engages the parking brake when you exit the car is much safer from rolling than a car where someone might forget to engage the mechanical parking brake. But hey they can 'drive a stick' so they are way smarter than any software design.
      • by eth1 ( 94901 )

        Software controlled parking brakes are one good reason to never buy that disaster-in-waiting.

        Try to explain THAT to your insurance when that car suddenly starts rolling into a busy 4-lane highway.

        Or STOPS rolling when you're going 70 on a 4-lane highway. My boss actually had this happen - all four wheels locked up out of nowhere. Took it to the dealership, who "fixed" it, only to have it happen again a few weeks later. Ended up having to threaten a lawsuit to get the dealership to take it back for a refund.

  • by DrXym ( 126579 ) on Friday February 03, 2023 @10:14AM (#63262217)

    Better to brick a car when it is sitting on a flat surface than on a slope.

    • Helps save on insurance so owner doesn't just push it down the hill when the activation crack they download for heated seats bricks the vehicle. I am not an expert in conditional access systems but satellite and cable TV operations can barely keep people from open systems. How will vehicle manufacturers cope with this, I'm surprised they haven't suffered ddos yet.
  • by wildstoo ( 835450 ) on Friday February 03, 2023 @10:18AM (#63262227)

    Nothing wrong with a bit of belt-n-braces when safety is involved. If the software update has any impact on any control systems, it just makes sense to have it in a place where there's less chance gravity is gonna take you for a ride.

    • by brunes69 ( 86786 )

      It creates a difficult situation for someone who lives in a house with a driveway and/or main street on an incline, like say a lot of homes in San Francisco. It means you would be totally unable to apply a software update at home, you would need to drive out to some shopping mall parking lot or something. And then if something went wrong with the update, you are stranded in the parking lot? Not a good setup.

      I do not think BMW fully thought this through. The more simple solution would be to require the opera

  • by northerner ( 651751 ) on Friday February 03, 2023 @10:23AM (#63262239)

    If some or all driver controls are unavailable during a software upgrade, it makes sense to ensure the car is not on an incline to prevent it from rolling. Having the parking brake engaged is another requirement. All the precautions for software upgrades mentioned in the article make sense.

    This sentence in the article makes it sound like BMW doesn't have a good reason to this. "As it turns out, BMW doesn't have one singular reason why the vehicle can't perform this task on an incline."
    It is more accurate to say that BMW has several good reasons for this (i.e. more than just one singular reason). Avoiding dangerous situations and avoiding being sued are good reasons. It would be a big story if they didn't do this and a car did roll.

    This is a non-story, but is mildly interesting and it gives some insight on the challenges of good firmware engineering.

  • Parking on the level doesn't actually "prevent any chance of the vehicle moving" [spokesperson] during updates but it does greatly reduce the chances of gravity being the prime mover.

    Seems reasonable. And the constraint is easily satisfied, not like they require a proprietary tool.

    If you've ever delved into iDrive (bimmer's onboard computer interface), which is 'extremely detailed' (arguably obsessively so, and labyrinthian), you might be more surprised that there isn't an override....you sure abo
  • by nagora ( 177841 ) on Friday February 03, 2023 @10:38AM (#63262307)

    So they're worried that updating the software will turn the handbrake off. Which means that software CAN turn the handbrake off. Which means that one day software WILL turn the handbrake off either by mistake or because of an attack.

    Remind me why I would pay extra for this shit?

    • Re:Hidden bugs (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Opportunist ( 166417 ) on Friday February 03, 2023 @10:48AM (#63262351)

      They are essentially afraid of what is known in security as a fail-to-open. Something that should NOT be possible in something as potentially lethal as a car.

      A good example would be the pneumatic brakes on trucks. They are KEPT OPEN by the pressure. If for some reason the brake system breaks down and you suddenly have no compressed air in your system, your brakes slam shut and the truck stops, never to move again until that compressor is back in action.

      How the hell is that NOT how this works?

      • There is no "safe state" for brakes, other than "doing what you want, when you want."

        If you think brakes failing "applied" is safe, just ask what happens if they suddenly go to that state while taking a highway on-ramp, where sudden application of brakes skids you off the road and/or into adjacent lanes. Or any other situation where applying brakes is going to destabilize the vehicle.

        The only safe architecture for braking systems is fault-tolerant redundancy, not picking an on/off state.

        • But if they do fail you have to pick one of either on or off. Them's the breaks.
        • by Ichijo ( 607641 )

          If you think brakes failing "applied" is safe, just ask what happens if they suddenly go to that state while taking a highway on-ramp, where sudden application of brakes skids you off the road and/or into adjacent lanes.

          If your brakes are going to fail, you want them to do so in a way that bleeds off potential energy as quickly as possible. Sliding into a guardrail at 60 mph is much better than a right angle collision at 80 mph any day of the week.

        • It's certainly not a good outcome to see brakes locking up. But the alternative, i.e. having a multi-ton vehicle rolling down a highway without the ability to stop it is a worse outcome. Even if it doesn't rear-end a large traffic jam.

    • Or you could worry about people not using their mechanical parking brake at all which is a million times more common.
      • by nagora ( 177841 )

        Or you could worry about people not using their mechanical parking brake at all which is a million times more common.

        Riight. Tell me about the last time you heard of all instances of some car model having their handbrake fail simultaneously because someone back at the factory pressed the wrong button.

    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      Brake cables snap, the brake pads corrode and fail.

      That's why if you park on an incline it's a good idea to not rely on just the hand brake. In a manual, put it in gear in the opposite direction to which you will roll. In an automatic, put it in park to engage the gear locking mechanism. You can also turn your wheels in so that the car rolls against the kerb and stops.

    • Re:Hidden bugs (Score:4, Insightful)

      by quantaman ( 517394 ) on Friday February 03, 2023 @01:28PM (#63262867)

      So they're worried that updating the software will turn the handbrake off. Which means that software CAN turn the handbrake off. Which means that one day software WILL turn the handbrake off either by mistake or because of an attack.

      Well they could have tried to think of every possible thing that could somehow go wrong during a software update (they probably do have this worked out) and then tried figure out if being parked on a slope during the update make any of them worse.

      But if they were wrong cars get damaged, people get hurt, and maybe even killed.

      Better to err on the side of "oh, this is a mildly annoying quirk".

      In general, I find that a better philosophy than some other car companies [bbc.com].

    • Everything is, or will be, drive by wire. That's pretty much where the automotive world is going. And with software, you never know. What happens if some bit flips by mistake?

      When a dealer does it the car is in a controlled location. OTA updates = no control. So adding some constraints to the process is reasonable.

    • I'd never let you anywhere automotive software development.

      There is always a risk that something goes wrong. With an over-the-air update there is the chance that something can go wrong. What can go wrong? No idea. They developed it so that nothing should ever go wrong, but nothing is ever 100%.

      Imagine you do an over-the-air update. It fails. There is a message "Update failed, please try again". You press the button, the update runs again, everything fine. But during that second update, your handbrake
  • by stealth_finger ( 1809752 ) on Friday February 03, 2023 @10:45AM (#63262337)
    I dread the day my car needs a software update, or rather I can't get a car that doesn't need one.
    • Cars have been receiving software updates for 30+ years, son. The only difference is now some of them don't need to be done at the dealership.
  • The car... it's holding you wrong.

  • by backbyter ( 896397 ) on Friday February 03, 2023 @10:50AM (#63262353)

    The car just needs a subscription to "Get OTA Updates While Parked On Incline".

  • ...to emit an inverse tachyon pulse!

    Denied. Reconfiguring the deflector dish is only permitted when in a stable parking orbit.

  • I mean, come on man. Those Tibetans are parking their Beamers all over the crazy places.

  • I am constantly seeing articles about these cars and their problems. Seems to be a fake luxury brand that is marketed to idiots that need to show off money they may or may not have. Much like Apple users, I feel they get what they deserve by wasting money on the brand, but it's not really about the quality but the perception that they are trendy and wealthy.

    • by jonwil ( 467024 )

      These days BMW (and for that matter Mercedes and Audi) is more about the badge than about actual luxury.

      If you want a car in 2023 that has luxury features but none of the crap you get from ze Germans, buy a Lexus... (the added bonus is that you get the legendary Toyota reliability)

  • It's not like flashing a ROM is rocket science.

    The vehicle has all sorts of sensors (pitch, yaw, lateral and longitudinal acceleration and deceleration, etc.) that allow it to understand its orientation,

    Errrm... maybe these days they have made it like rocket science.

  • While I understand their decision, it is a bad idea to have the computer control the emergency brake. The reason most cars still use a cable to operate the emergency brake (which itself is separate from the other brakes) is in case the hydraulic braking system stops working. In the case of this BMW, if the computer has a problem you can't do anything.
    • by EvilSS ( 557649 )

      The reason most cars still use a cable to operate the emergency brake

      I think you will find most new cars these days use electronic parking brakes.

  • While the people that decided to put in this limitation probably made a good decision, the very reason this safety precaution is thought necessary says very bad things about the whole design. It means that the car can get into an unsafe or non-performing state when updated in a non-level state or that the designers see at the very least a real possibility of that happening. Hence they either built an unsafe system there or a system complex enough were they are not sure how it will behave (and hence is unsaf

  • ... wait until you physically move it ...

    While I despise update nag-screens, I assume the car still functioned with the old software. As the original article asks, why isn't there a "I chocked the tire" checklist?

  • When I turned on the radio, the left blinker would start blinking, and the left window wouldn't go up or down.

  • Most modern cars are very drive by wire and everything is controlled by software from steering to gas and brakes. These updates are not just infotainment but update a lot of the self driving and other control and steering software too.
    Seems just like a good safety measure to guard the car against accidentally rolling away if something goes horribly wrong and the parking brake disengages for some reason.

    Also, given this is the US, one of the most litigious countries in the world where EVERYONE is out to grab

Congratulations! You are the one-millionth user to log into our system. If there's anything special we can do for you, anything at all, don't hesitate to ask!

Working...