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China Transportation

China Is Exporting Its Obsession with Tiny Electric Vehicles (restofworld.org) 110

Posted by EditorDavid from the very-compact-cars dept.
Long-time Slashdot reader destinyland shared this report about the boxy little Wuling: Priced at around $5,500 and famously outselling Tesla in China, it's a tiny, comically square car, produced in joint partnership with General Motors and SAIC. The micro EV has been fodder for articles and YouTubers — even while it's remained unavailable outside China.

Until last summer, that is, when Wuling attempted to go international. First stop: Indonesia. With its Air model selling at a mere $16,000 — less than half the price of alternatives — the minimalist EV was depicted in advertising as a gateway to the future, a slick solution for busy Indonesian city-dwellers.

Six months later, the Wuling Air now dominates EV sales in the country, according to the Association of Indonesia Automotive Industries (Gaikindo). Since entering Indonesia last August, it's sold some 8,000 vehicles. The number may be small compared to the manufacturers' sales figures in their home turfs of the U.S. and China, but it's equivalent to 78% of the EV market in the Southeast Asian country....

It's not perfect; customers complain of battery failure and the anxiety of finding charge points. But the price tag counts for a lot.... A $48,000 Nissan Leaf or Hyundai Ioniq is way out of most Indonesians' price brackets. But a Wuling — $16,000 for standard range, which lasts 250 kilometers on a full charge, and $20,000 for long-range, at 450 kilometers — is achievable.
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China Is Exporting Its Obsession with Tiny Electric Vehicles More

China Is Exporting Its Obsession with Tiny Electric Vehicles

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  • Is this car that tiny? Much smaller than a 2-door Smart Mini?

    • Re:tiny? (Score:5, Informative)

      by NateFromMich ( 6359610 ) on Saturday February 25, 2023 @02:32PM (#63322844)

      Is this car that tiny? Much smaller than a 2-door Smart Mini?

      Well, it's only barely longer than a Smart For Two (the only one I'm familiar with) but has back seats. So yes and no.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]

    • There is a minimum width for accommodating 2 people side by side, and this is it.

      • There is a minimum width for accommodating 2 people side by side, and this is it.

        "Minimum" has a hell of a definition when you're talking about the box that separates you from death at 80MPH on the freeway.

        They don't sell Smart cars in America anymore, and Yugo left decades ago. Probably something about getting crushed by the competition. Literally.

        • Ummm, this won't do 80mph on the freeway.

          • Ummm, this won't do 80mph on the freeway.

            You might be right, but going that fast only turns you into the weapon. Doesn't absolve you from being the bullet when you hit something doing half that speed.

            Watch as local regulation turns these into glorified scooters to qualify for DOT safety standards.

        • Have you ever been to Indonesia?

          Traffic in Jakarta moves at about 10 kph.

          A bicycle or motorbike is faster than driving.

  • "Its obsession." The headline would be perfectly fine if it said "China exporting cheap EVs."

    • "Its obsession." The headline would be perfectly fine if it said "China exporting cheap EVs."

      No, the headline is fine. First they have to export the idea to countries that are used to driving $50,000 pickup trucks to go and get some milk.

      After that they can start exporting the EVs. It probably won't be that exact model they export.

      • Re:Does everything have to be in Insta speech? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Powercntrl ( 458442 ) on Saturday February 25, 2023 @02:47PM (#63322874) Homepage

        First they have to export the idea to countries that are used to driving $50,000 pickup trucks to go and get some milk.

        I'd venture a guess that's mostly a US phenomenon. Gargantuan gas guzzling vehicles don't seem to be popular in European countries, and they're too expensive for the less-wealthy parts of the world.

        • I'm guessing cars like this will be a hard sell in the USA.

          They could be a big hit in Europe though - with this mindset they could probably build a Nissan Leaf competitor for a fifth of the price.

        • Re: (Score:3)

          by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          Indeed, the vehicle in question looks similar in size to a Smart Fortwo, which seems to sell well enough in Europe.

          Small cars like that are popular in Europe, and most manufacturers offer them. Fiat has the 500 (and the electric version is apparently quite decent), Toyota has the Aygo etc.

          I hear that they are making efforts to enter the Japanese market, where "kei cars" (very small models with a 600cc or smaller engine) are popular with consumers and businesses.

  • https://jalopnik.com/the-chang... [jalopnik.com]

    More seriously, it's good that basically the EV Kei cars are a thing now. I thought about it and it would be perfect for example for my parents, who live in a small town. They can walk or bike to most places, but still sometimes could benefit from a car for more shopping or when the weather sucks. Charging at home is easy.

    Still, the problem is the price, $5k isn't a lot for a new car of course (though you'd have to add taxes and other fees ,etc) but when you can get a used

    • I'd be extremely impressed if you can link to a single example of a running Yaris or Fit on craglist etc. for double the high end of the $1k-$2k price range you stated.

      • Is the US market still fucked up from covid? I should've mentioned it's based on European prices, though from what I've seen before, cars were cheaper in the US.

        I bought a Fit for ~$600 a year ago though was in limp mode. But there are plenty running ones in this range: Fit 1 [mobile.de], Fit 2 [mobile.de], Yaris [mobile.de], etc.

        • Huh. It surprises me even more they exist in Germany, I thought they pretty much removed any car from the road as soon as it's less than perfect.

          • The inspections are strict but really it's just to make sure the brakes work and the ball joints aren't falling apart. It's not impossible to pass. Other than the limp mode my shitbox was in decent shape and only needed rear brakes for example.

            • Re: (Score:3)

              by TWX ( 665546 )

              A whole lot of people don't understand the difference between cosmetic problems and mechanical ones.

              While I'm no fan of the patina-look, there are decades-old vehicles running around that have paint essentially gone, surface-rusted to hell and gone, that the owners have gone through and replaced or refurbished everything mechanical, sometimes even upgrading things like powertrains to significantly more modern ones. The vehicles may look on the outside like rusted hulks but it's often just the surface, with

    • Re:Not as cool as the Changli (Score:5, Funny)

      by phantomfive ( 622387 ) on Saturday February 25, 2023 @03:38PM (#63323000) Journal
      The real problem with electric cars is that now the Mad Max world can't happen anymore.

      • The real problem with electric cars is that now the Mad Max world can't happen anymore.

        Why not?

        Seems more realistic to keep using old solar panels to charge random repurposed batteries and cobbled together vehicles than distill anything from pig poop and keep a fleet of ICE running.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by TWX ( 665546 )

      Having watched the link in the video, i don't think that the appeal comes from the incredibly diminuitive size. It comes from the simplicity for the operator.

      One of things I personally dislike in many modern cars is how much in the way of gadetry is now presented to the driver. So long as the driver has to actually drive (ie, self-driving not mature to the point that the driver can just ignore the road conditions) then designers would do well to always start with the mindset of driver plus basic operating

  • A car like that would suit me fine (Score:5, Insightful)

    by dskoll ( 99328 ) on Saturday February 25, 2023 @01:54PM (#63322748) Homepage

    A small car like that at a cheap price would suit me just fine, assuming it's safe and reliable. For the 0.1% of the time when I need to transport more than one passenger or a lot of cargo, I could rent a car for the day. TCO would still be lower than the ridiculously over-priced standard EVs.

    • It is in no way equipped for US speeds or traffic. It weighs half as much as a Civic (1500 vs 3000 lb) and has no airbags.

      That said I'd rather be run over in a Wuling than on a motorcycle, and those are legal, so..?

      • No air bags? Pretty sure that makes it illegal in the USA these days.

        Qualifier - it may be legal to drive an airbagless car if it existed before the law requiring airbags came along.

        • No air bags? Pretty sure that makes it illegal in the USA these days.

          The Polaris Slingshot is a rather odd-looking passenger-enabled vehicle. It's technically a motorcycle and has no air bags.

          "Illegal" is a matter of buying off the right regulators in America.

      • The car in the linked video has at least one airbag. It is explained in the "Air conditioning & air bags" chapter of the youtube video. The "s" in airbags makes me believe there are 2 airbags but it is not clearly stated in the video. I don't know about the legal part but they could make appropriate change to conform to it. The problem is more the US market, american love big cars not small one, it wouldn't sell well and you would feel very insecure when you are surrounded by giant SUVs monsters on the

    • assuming it's safe

      It is not.

    • That's the point.

      I don't believe it's about the car, it's about the price. I'm a well-off middle class European and I've never beem able to afford a new car at over $50k currently. That's simply not a 'no-brainer' to me.

      The moment I buy electric will be after they're available im good condition 2nd hand for $20-25k.

      Or if I can buy a new one for $15k to get me to and from work - 90% of my use case - that starts to sound interesting.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        2nd hand EVs have been available for $20-25k for years. You can get a Nissan Leaf 40kWh, or an MG, or a Zoe, or an i3... In fact looking at some of the deals I've seen in the last few weeks, now that prices are getting back to normal, you could probably get a Leaf 62kWh or maybe even an eNiro/Kona for that much.

        Those are dealer prices with warranty.

        • Thanks for the info :-)

          Now I need them for 25k to be family compatible. (I bought a VW T5 for 25k 2 years ago, and a BMW i5 few years bfore that. The T5 had 7 years, the BMW had 3 on its belt, but the latter was 10 years ago or so.)

          If they keep going this way, at the end of its life my current car will be replaced by electric.

          For single-person going to work they need to be half that.

    • I wonder whats the size / safety features difference compared to the TATA Nano which was a failure in India.

      I understand the Nano did not have a bunch of safety features as part of it's cost reduction.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by Duds ( 100634 )

      The problem is we've been here before.

      These cars all appear in china at £x or $x.

      They are always £2x and $2x when they reach the UK and US and are the exact same price as the more "Traditional" alternatives (VW eUp etc).

    • You could probably buy a golf cart and then make sure it has all the needed lights and what not to make it street legal. Would probably work out if you lived in a small planned community but then at that point so would walking or bicycling. You could even get a little wagon that could be hitched to the bicycle for carrying cargo around.

      https://www.golfspan.com/best-... [golfspan.com]

  • I know I'm going to get told all about how awesome safety standards we have here are and therefore we need expensive cars or you might be unsafe. Truth of the matter is they don't want us in anything affordable and part of that is achieved with really high safety standards. It's not so much that those clamoring for ultimately safety (no such thing) aren't well intentioned but it would certainly be nice if there were options.

    A cheap 100 mile range car with very few features would be awesome but no way it cou

    • WTF are you smoking?? Safety standards in the U.S. aren't likely to be any worse than they are in Western Europe, Japan or Korea.

      • We are talking about China here...not Western Europe, Japan or Korea. Try reading the headline at least.

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by Anonymous Coward

        The point of what he's saying, is that we can't register and drive these on public roads, because of existing safety legislation in the US. Maybe those countries you mentioned have exemptions, based on the size of the car...the US doesn't.

        I absolutely agree...If I want to drive a cheap, but less safe vehicle...I should have the option to do so. If you're a pearl clutcher...then, by all means, option your vehicle to the max with safety gear. People have become way too accepting of vehicles being $30K plus

        • Actually these are limited even in China. I seem to recall a video where he mentioned that you can't drive them in a lot of places, and I don't think you'd want to drive one on a highway anyhow.
          • If it's anything like the micro EV's from China I've seen in articles, top speed is maybe 50 km/h. It's not a highway vehicle at all, but like kei cars/trucks, it's inexpensive, small (so, easy to park), and has enough range for basic city usage. Unlike a bicycle or e-bike, it keeps you out of the rain. I wouldn't mind having something that is a bit less safe if it's never going to hit highway speeds. It's a glorified golf cart, and that's fine for a lot of short errands.

            • It's a glorified golf cart, and that's fine for a lot of short errands.

              We really need more laws allowing golf carts, electric preferably, on lower speed roadways in cities. It could really help solve quite a few transportation issues.

              • Re:Never going to see that in the States! (Score:5, Informative)

                by Local ID10T ( 790134 ) <ID10T.L.USER@gmail.com> on Saturday February 25, 2023 @05:36PM (#63323188) Homepage

                Neighborhood Electric Vehicles [wikipedia.org] are low speed vehicles with relaxed safety requirements.

                Low-speed vehicles are defined as a four-wheeled motor vehicle that has a gross vehicle weight rating of less than 3,000 pounds and a top speed of between 20 to 25 mph. To satisfy federal safety requirements, NEVs must be equipped with three-point seat belts or a lap belt, running lights, headlights, brake lights, reflectors, rear view mirrors, and turn signals. Generally, they must be titled and registered, and the driver must be licensed. Because airbags are not required the NEV cannot normally travel on highways or freeways. NEVs in many states are restricted to roads with a speed limit of 35 mph or less.

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

              TFA says it can do 100kph (62 mph). That's actually the speed limit even on highways in Japan, not sure about China.

              While vehicles like the Smart Fortwo might be technically capable of going faster, most people buy them as city cars, often a second vehicle for commuting.

      • The comment from OP is relevant if you consider TFS is about a Chinese car sold in Indonesia. It's possible that the China has lower standards than the Western world, or that the Chinese maker chose lower standards to make the car affordable for Indonesia.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Amouth ( 879122 )

        WTF are you smoking?? Safety standards in the U.S. aren't likely to be any worse than they are in Western Europe, Japan or Korea.

        U.S. Automotive Safety Standards are higher than any other place in the world. Between the higher Safety & Emissions Standards its nearly impossible to import a new/current non US Domestic Market model car into the US in it's stock form.. Once they are 24+y old, then you can import them as vintage and they don't have to be brought to to standards.

        • "Once they are 24+y old, then you can import them as vintage and they don't have to be brought to to standards."

          Everybody imports those little 25 year old 4WD Kei trucks, with their tiny motors, they seem to be a good deal.

    • A cheap 100 mile range car with very few features would be awesome but no way it could be made and meet USA safety standards.

      And here I was wondering why motorcycles suddenly stopped existing in the land of the free to ride without a helmet. Thanks for clearing that up. /s

    • Affordable new cars don't sell well in the USA because buying a car is mostly just playing a game of "what financing do I qualify for?" with the dealer. Why buy a cheaper car when you can just stretch out the loan duration to fit it into your monthly budget? "Sure, you're overpaying substantially in interest fees, but you're getting a bigger, more comfortable vehicle!", the dealer will say.

      If the reason you happen to need an affordable vehicle is because you're just getting started in life or hit a rough

    • no way it could be made and meet USA safety standards.

      Doens't have to be - with a car that small you just buy it and drive it anyway, if a police car tries to stop you just turn down a bike path and wave goodbye!

      Which also means, bonus, no payments for license or registration, and it's so cheap no need to insure. In an accident just walk away and the inevitable battery fire will destroy all traces of it.

    • A cheap 100 mile range car with very few features would be awesome but no way it could be made and meet USA safety standards.

      The American driving down a freeway doing 60MPH on a literal scooter without a helmet following all traffic and safety laws. Are they proving you wrong, ignorant, or both?

    • a car that small should come with a free wheelchair and colostomy bag.

  • In other news, cubic zirconia "famously" outsells diamond.

    • In other news, cubic zirconia "famously" outsells diamond.

      And sensible people don't care about the difference.

  • It seems they would have to sell 8 of them for every model 3 Tesla sells to have the same sales revenue. I could see a market for those cars in a large, gated senior community in Florida. I wouldn't want to be in one of them going 80mph down the highway next to a tandem tractor trailer.

    • I could see a market for those cars in a large, gated senior community in Florida.

      They already have golf carts in The Villages. I also don't see a "Chinese car" going over well with that sort of demographic, unless you hid the fact that it was Chinese.

      • The Villages is a good example but many/most retirement communities as well as quite a few other towns already have provisions for golf carts. At some point, we will probably see a requirement for the golf carts to be electric just because they are quieter. I own real estate in Celebration, where the use of NEVs was planned from the start (and that's not a retirement community).

      • I could see a market for those cars in a large, gated senior community in Florida.

        They already have golf carts in The Villages. I also don't see a "Chinese car" going over well with that sort of demographic, unless you hid the fact that it was Chinese.

        Uh huh. Tell me again how old people on a fixed income don't shop at Wal-Mart, Target, or a dozen other mega-stores that are full of Chinese product. Where you think they're buying their cheap colored sex loofas from?

        Show me the American who's actually anti-Chinese, and I'll show you the mountain man living off the fucking forest. That sure as hell ain't The Villages.

    • Luckily they only do 60mph then?

  • It somehow reminds me of that most beautiful car produced by the Italian design powerhouse Zagato: the Zele https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik... [wikipedia.org]

    From the same company that did the Aston Martin DB4 GT Zagato. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik... [wikipedia.org]

  • It's worth noting that China's average household income is much less than the US. And while there is urban sprawl everywhere in the world, China has much greater density overall so people may not need to drive so far or so fast.

  • Cool (Score:2)

    by PPH ( 736903 )

    Now bring these into compliance with NHTSA's crash protection standards and we'll see what their range drops to.

  • welp... (Score:2, Troll)

    by jjaa ( 2041170 )
    all those pickup owners now feel threatened about their dick prosthetics

  • Can you imagine getting rear ended in that thing? You might get launched into Orbit.
    That thing needs some Orange Track in the playroom.

    • Can you imagine getting rear ended in that thing? You might get launched into Orbit.
      That thing needs some Orange Track in the playroom.

      No, but it's great for city driving.

      I think the issue for North America is it looks like a 2-seater.

      For a person living on their own you need an all-purpose vehicle, I wouldn't want to take that thing on the highways, especially in the winter. So it doesn't really work as an only vehicle.

      And people with second vehicles are typically families, a smaller commuting car and a van or SUV for bigger outings. The trouble is that it only has two seats so it doesn't really work for a family.

      It probably works great f

  • Everything that countries can do to reduce the cost of living & the resources each person uses in their daily lives gives that country a competitive advantage over other countries that can't or won't do the same. If China & other Asian countries can substantially reduce the cost of getting to & from work, the supermarket, etc., then they free up more money to capitalise on other opportunities. If you want to get around in the most inefficient, expensive, & unsustainable ways possible, don't

  • The auto industry has successfully lobbied our governments since forever to limit the success of small electric vehicles.

    With city traffic, my average commute speed is under 60 km/h, and it's a 20km commute. I could have been driving a glorified golf cart that would not have been not as safe as a car, but much safer than a motorcycle and just been limited to roads with a limit of 60 km/h or less... but the auto industry did a lot to ensure anything that can go over half that speed has to be classified as a

  • A $48,000 Nissan Leaf or Hyundai Ioniq is way out of most Indonesians' price brackets.

    Uh, the Leaf starts at $28k. That took me all of four seconds to look up. Makes me wonder about the rest of the information in this propagan... uh, news article.

    • The thing that really annoys me about car prices is how they advertise the "starting at" price rather than the actual price at the dealer. They have no base models on the lot, and if you try to order a base model, they won't sell it to you. Years ago, I had to jump through hoops and watch multiple dealers for even a single base WRX to show up. No way was I paying an extra $8,000 for the "Limited" edition with the moonroof, HID headlights, all the extra garbage I didn't want.

      So, yeah, I don't care what pr

      • I don't know about WRX or how things were years ago. Right now it seems to be the opposite problem. The dealers have too many low-end models and none of the more desirable ones. Also, as far as I know, most dealers will let you order exactly what you want although they may not negotiate much on price that way.

      • The thing that really annoys me about car prices is how they advertise the "starting at" price rather than the actual price at the dealer. They have no base models on the lot, and if you try to order a base model, they won't sell it to you. Years ago, I had to jump through hoops and watch multiple dealers for even a single base WRX to show up. No way was I paying an extra $8,000 for the "Limited" edition with the moonroof, HID headlights, all the extra garbage I didn't want.

        So, yeah, I don't care what price is advertised. I only care about what price is stuck to the windows of the cars they actually have for sale.

        Easiest way to get dealers to work FOR you, is to make the compete against each other.

        I found the car I wanted years ago. Base model. Got the VIN. Contacted five dealers in the local area, including the dealer who actually had the car on the lot. Told all of them the EXACT car I wanted and to call me with the best price. Then I let THEM fight over it and haggle down to the lowest price to make the sale.

        After quite a few "that's nice, now beat it by $500 because your competition is" responses from me, I

      • Um, OK? What does this have to do with my post pointing out that they incorrectly listed the price of a Leaf by $20k?

    • A $48,000 Nissan Leaf or Hyundai Ioniq is way out of most Indonesians' price brackets.

      Uh, the Leaf starts at $28k. That took me all of four seconds to look up. Makes me wonder about the rest of the information in this propagan... uh, news article.

      You say "starts" as if MSRP has been relevant. I take it you haven't actually been car shopping in what, years?

      Let's back up a bit. You have heard of COVID, right?

      • I take it you haven't actually been car shopping in what, years?

        I bought a car just last year. I paid $5k over MSRP. And I probably would have paid $5k over MSRP on almost any decent car. So... what's your point?

        Let's back up a bit. You have heard of COVID, right?

        Yes. Again, what's your point? Do you just post random, obvious things to make yourself feel smarter?

  • American greed will destroy a market once again :-( They want us to all have electric cars soon, but are keeping the prices up at $40,000 or $50,000 at the lower end. Along comes this new start-up selling an electric car for $5500. Which would you buy? You can't get a decent used car for that today! (Note: It is unwise to buy a used electric car, because you'd still need to buy a new battery for somewhere between $4,000 and $20,000)

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