China Is Exporting Its Obsession with Tiny Electric Vehicles (restofworld.org) 110
Long-time Slashdot reader destinyland shared this report about the boxy little Wuling:
Priced at around $5,500 and famously outselling Tesla in China, it's a tiny, comically square car, produced in joint partnership with General Motors and SAIC. The micro EV has been fodder for articles and YouTubers — even while it's remained unavailable outside China.
Until last summer, that is, when Wuling attempted to go international. First stop: Indonesia. With its Air model selling at a mere $16,000 — less than half the price of alternatives — the minimalist EV was depicted in advertising as a gateway to the future, a slick solution for busy Indonesian city-dwellers.
Six months later, the Wuling Air now dominates EV sales in the country, according to the Association of Indonesia Automotive Industries (Gaikindo). Since entering Indonesia last August, it's sold some 8,000 vehicles. The number may be small compared to the manufacturers' sales figures in their home turfs of the U.S. and China, but it's equivalent to 78% of the EV market in the Southeast Asian country....
It's not perfect; customers complain of battery failure and the anxiety of finding charge points. But the price tag counts for a lot.... A $48,000 Nissan Leaf or Hyundai Ioniq is way out of most Indonesians' price brackets. But a Wuling — $16,000 for standard range, which lasts 250 kilometers on a full charge, and $20,000 for long-range, at 450 kilometers — is achievable.
Until last summer, that is, when Wuling attempted to go international. First stop: Indonesia. With its Air model selling at a mere $16,000 — less than half the price of alternatives — the minimalist EV was depicted in advertising as a gateway to the future, a slick solution for busy Indonesian city-dwellers.
Six months later, the Wuling Air now dominates EV sales in the country, according to the Association of Indonesia Automotive Industries (Gaikindo). Since entering Indonesia last August, it's sold some 8,000 vehicles. The number may be small compared to the manufacturers' sales figures in their home turfs of the U.S. and China, but it's equivalent to 78% of the EV market in the Southeast Asian country....
It's not perfect; customers complain of battery failure and the anxiety of finding charge points. But the price tag counts for a lot.... A $48,000 Nissan Leaf or Hyundai Ioniq is way out of most Indonesians' price brackets. But a Wuling — $16,000 for standard range, which lasts 250 kilometers on a full charge, and $20,000 for long-range, at 450 kilometers — is achievable.
tiny? (Score:2)
Is this car that tiny? Much smaller than a 2-door Smart Mini?
Re:tiny? (Score:5, Informative)
Is this car that tiny? Much smaller than a 2-door Smart Mini?
Well, it's only barely longer than a Smart For Two (the only one I'm familiar with) but has back seats. So yes and no.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
There is a minimum width for accommodating 2 people side by side, and this is it.
"Minimum" has a hell of a definition when you're talking about the box that separates you from death at 80MPH on the freeway.
They don't sell Smart cars in America anymore, and Yugo left decades ago. Probably something about getting crushed by the competition. Literally.
Re: (Score:2)
Ummm, this won't do 80mph on the freeway.
Re: (Score:3)
Ummm, this won't do 80mph on the freeway.
You might be right, but going that fast only turns you into the weapon. Doesn't absolve you from being the bullet when you hit something doing half that speed.
Watch as local regulation turns these into glorified scooters to qualify for DOT safety standards.
Re: (Score:2)
Have you ever been to Indonesia?
Traffic in Jakarta moves at about 10 kph.
A bicycle or motorbike is faster than driving.
Does everything have to be in Insta speech? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
"Its obsession." The headline would be perfectly fine if it said "China exporting cheap EVs."
No, the headline is fine. First they have to export the idea to countries that are used to driving $50,000 pickup trucks to go and get some milk.
After that they can start exporting the EVs. It probably won't be that exact model they export.
Re:Does everything have to be in Insta speech? (Score:5, Insightful)
First they have to export the idea to countries that are used to driving $50,000 pickup trucks to go and get some milk.
I'd venture a guess that's mostly a US phenomenon. Gargantuan gas guzzling vehicles don't seem to be popular in European countries, and they're too expensive for the less-wealthy parts of the world.
Re: (Score:2)
I'm guessing cars like this will be a hard sell in the USA.
They could be a big hit in Europe though - with this mindset they could probably build a Nissan Leaf competitor for a fifth of the price.
Re: (Score:3)
Indeed, the vehicle in question looks similar in size to a Smart Fortwo, which seems to sell well enough in Europe.
Small cars like that are popular in Europe, and most manufacturers offer them. Fiat has the 500 (and the electric version is apparently quite decent), Toyota has the Aygo etc.
I hear that they are making efforts to enter the Japanese market, where "kei cars" (very small models with a 600cc or smaller engine) are popular with consumers and businesses.
Not as cool as the Changli (Score:2)
https://jalopnik.com/the-chang... [jalopnik.com]
More seriously, it's good that basically the EV Kei cars are a thing now. I thought about it and it would be perfect for example for my parents, who live in a small town. They can walk or bike to most places, but still sometimes could benefit from a car for more shopping or when the weather sucks. Charging at home is easy.
Still, the problem is the price, $5k isn't a lot for a new car of course (though you'd have to add taxes and other fees ,etc) but when you can get a used
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Is the US market still fucked up from covid? I should've mentioned it's based on European prices, though from what I've seen before, cars were cheaper in the US.
I bought a Fit for ~$600 a year ago though was in limp mode. But there are plenty running ones in this range: Fit 1 [mobile.de], Fit 2 [mobile.de], Yaris [mobile.de], etc.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
The inspections are strict but really it's just to make sure the brakes work and the ball joints aren't falling apart. It's not impossible to pass. Other than the limp mode my shitbox was in decent shape and only needed rear brakes for example.
Re: (Score:3)
A whole lot of people don't understand the difference between cosmetic problems and mechanical ones.
While I'm no fan of the patina-look, there are decades-old vehicles running around that have paint essentially gone, surface-rusted to hell and gone, that the owners have gone through and replaced or refurbished everything mechanical, sometimes even upgrading things like powertrains to significantly more modern ones. The vehicles may look on the outside like rusted hulks but it's often just the surface, with
Re:Not as cool as the Changli (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
The real problem with electric cars is that now the Mad Max world can't happen anymore.
Why not?
Seems more realistic to keep using old solar panels to charge random repurposed batteries and cobbled together vehicles than distill anything from pig poop and keep a fleet of ICE running.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Now it's just some off-grid hippies getting by, without a Supercharged V8 Falcon in sight.
The real dystopia.
Re: (Score:2)
Those off-grid hippies better have enough fire power to protect their panels and batteries. There was a movie that sort of went into this called Goodbye World. It was okay.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: Not as cool as the Changli (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Having watched the link in the video, i don't think that the appeal comes from the incredibly diminuitive size. It comes from the simplicity for the operator.
One of things I personally dislike in many modern cars is how much in the way of gadetry is now presented to the driver. So long as the driver has to actually drive (ie, self-driving not mature to the point that the driver can just ignore the road conditions) then designers would do well to always start with the mindset of driver plus basic operating
A car like that would suit me fine (Score:5, Insightful)
A small car like that at a cheap price would suit me just fine, assuming it's safe and reliable. For the 0.1% of the time when I need to transport more than one passenger or a lot of cargo, I could rent a car for the day. TCO would still be lower than the ridiculously over-priced standard EVs.
Re: (Score:2)
That said I'd rather be run over in a Wuling than on a motorcycle, and those are legal, so..?
Re: (Score:3)
No air bags? Pretty sure that makes it illegal in the USA these days.
Qualifier - it may be legal to drive an airbagless car if it existed before the law requiring airbags came along.
Re: (Score:2)
No air bags? Pretty sure that makes it illegal in the USA these days.
The Polaris Slingshot is a rather odd-looking passenger-enabled vehicle. It's technically a motorcycle and has no air bags.
"Illegal" is a matter of buying off the right regulators in America.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:1)
assuming it's safe
It is not.
Re: A car like that would suit me fine (Score:3)
That's the point.
I don't believe it's about the car, it's about the price. I'm a well-off middle class European and I've never beem able to afford a new car at over $50k currently. That's simply not a 'no-brainer' to me.
The moment I buy electric will be after they're available im good condition 2nd hand for $20-25k.
Or if I can buy a new one for $15k to get me to and from work - 90% of my use case - that starts to sound interesting.
Re: (Score:2)
2nd hand EVs have been available for $20-25k for years. You can get a Nissan Leaf 40kWh, or an MG, or a Zoe, or an i3... In fact looking at some of the deals I've seen in the last few weeks, now that prices are getting back to normal, you could probably get a Leaf 62kWh or maybe even an eNiro/Kona for that much.
Those are dealer prices with warranty.
Re: A car like that would suit me fine (Score:2)
Thanks for the info :-)
Now I need them for 25k to be family compatible. (I bought a VW T5 for 25k 2 years ago, and a BMW i5 few years bfore that. The T5 had 7 years, the BMW had 3 on its belt, but the latter was 10 years ago or so.)
If they keep going this way, at the end of its life my current car will be replaced by electric.
For single-person going to work they need to be half that.
Re: (Score:2)
I wonder whats the size / safety features difference compared to the TATA Nano which was a failure in India.
I understand the Nano did not have a bunch of safety features as part of it's cost reduction.
Re: (Score:3)
The problem is we've been here before.
These cars all appear in china at £x or $x.
They are always £2x and $2x when they reach the UK and US and are the exact same price as the more "Traditional" alternatives (VW eUp etc).
Re: (Score:2)
You could probably buy a golf cart and then make sure it has all the needed lights and what not to make it street legal. Would probably work out if you lived in a small planned community but then at that point so would walking or bicycling. You could even get a little wagon that could be hitched to the bicycle for carrying cargo around.
https://www.golfspan.com/best-... [golfspan.com]
Re: (Score:1)
Considering he stated, in his own post, that he's making an assumption about reliability, your post is even more worthless, not to mention redundant.
More to the point, it's a fairly safe assumption, barring some huge manufacturing defect. The battery on this thing can't be much bigger than a pizza box.
Re: (Score:3)
Considering he stated, in his own post, that he's making an assumption about reliability, your post is even more worthless, not to mention redundant.
Uh huh. The OP also wants safe along with reliable, which is delusional bullshit at best when driving a car the size of a fucking shoebox, especially in America where 5,000-pound SUVs roam the lands ready to crush you like the tin can you are.
Smart cars didn't make it in America, and Yugo died long ago. To highlight the actual worthless effort.
Re: (Score:1)
The Smart Car is interesting because despite being dinky, it's pretty safe. But it's safe because it has a fully welded space frame integrated into the unit body, which also makes it expensive to produce.
The Yugo failed because it was shit. But the Geo Metro is still sought after, in the manual transmission variant anyway. Ditto the CRX HF. And both of those cars are absolute death traps if you get into a collision with an American SUV barge. They also both get over 50 MPG on the highway in the really real
Re: (Score:2)
The Smart Car is interesting because despite being dinky, it's pretty safe. But it's safe because it has a fully welded space frame integrated into the unit body, which also makes it expensive to produce.
I'll be honest. The "smart" car intrigued me at one point. Took me less than five minutes to dispel that delusion, since a shoebox sized car in America was NOT showing me the incredible gas mileage savings I was expecting with their "solution". Consumers don't give a shit about what is "expensive to produce" unless you can convince them of it by showing that ALL of the competition is saying the same thing. The competition at the time didn't give a flying fuck about a "fully welded space frame" if DOT la
Re: (Score:2)
She, not he. And I don't live in the US.
Re: (Score:2)
Many American SUVs are considerably heavier than 5,000#.
Many passenger cars are well above 4,000#.
I like the looks of the new Honda-e, a small electric car whose prototype was announced in 2017 and went on sale around three years ago. Unfortunately it's not available in the United States. I like it in part because it doesn't have a whole bunch of unnecessary stuck-on crap to set it apart from conventional vehicles. Frankly that was one thing that I had liked about the Tesla Model S, it also wasn't covere
Re: (Score:2)
Without knowing its long term reliability, you're just breathing out your ass.
It's almost as if you haven't seen the lack of tech in this car.
It's probably more reliable than whatever you're driving.
Never going to see that in the States! (Score:2, Insightful)
I know I'm going to get told all about how awesome safety standards we have here are and therefore we need expensive cars or you might be unsafe. Truth of the matter is they don't want us in anything affordable and part of that is achieved with really high safety standards. It's not so much that those clamoring for ultimately safety (no such thing) aren't well intentioned but it would certainly be nice if there were options.
A cheap 100 mile range car with very few features would be awesome but no way it cou
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:1)
We are talking about China here...not Western Europe, Japan or Korea. Try reading the headline at least.
Re: (Score:1)
The point of what he's saying, is that we can't register and drive these on public roads, because of existing safety legislation in the US. Maybe those countries you mentioned have exemptions, based on the size of the car...the US doesn't.
I absolutely agree...If I want to drive a cheap, but less safe vehicle...I should have the option to do so. If you're a pearl clutcher...then, by all means, option your vehicle to the max with safety gear. People have become way too accepting of vehicles being $30K plus
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
It's a glorified golf cart, and that's fine for a lot of short errands.
We really need more laws allowing golf carts, electric preferably, on lower speed roadways in cities. It could really help solve quite a few transportation issues.
Re: (Score:3)
Let people decide their own tolerance for personal risk...stop mandating personal expenditures. Why do cars have to have all this safety gear.....but we still allow a person to ride a motorcycle? Some of these small cars would be the equivalent of a person accepting the risk of riding a motorcycle.
That would effectively require indemnifying manufacturers, because people who initially believe they will tolerate the risk will still sue when they are hurt. Or their families (who do not and should not have any say in said risk acceptance) will sue if they are killed.
Re: (Score:2)
Cars are expected by most people to be much safer than motorcycles. Making sure people fully understand their car is not appreciably safer than a motorcycle is the challenge. A proper free choice requires pointing this out, but nobody is actually going to market their car truthfully as relatively unsafe.
Re: (Score:2)
Why would they market it as such? Do they market motorcycles as relatively unsafe?
They don't need to. Everybody knows.
Though, if they marketed it in ways counter to the results of safety tests...they would likely be running afoul of numerous laws.
Indeed NHTSA would have to expand their safety rating scale so as not to have to use negative numbers.
Beyond that though, I don't mind sharing the road with motorcycles. I'm not sure most people would be as enthusiastic about sharing the road with glorified golf carts. We are actively trying to separate bicycles from cars as it is, for both cyclist and driver safety. Maybe these would be fine if they were required to use the bike paths with the other road hazards.
Re: (Score:2)
No, I'm saying motorcycles are accepted as more dangerous than cars. Golf carts on streets need to be understood the same way (ie not pretending it is a car)
Which of them is more of a road hazard to other road users is a different argument, but every bit as much of a lawsuit magnet.
Re:Never going to see that in the States! (Score:5, Informative)
Neighborhood Electric Vehicles [wikipedia.org] are low speed vehicles with relaxed safety requirements.
Low-speed vehicles are defined as a four-wheeled motor vehicle that has a gross vehicle weight rating of less than 3,000 pounds and a top speed of between 20 to 25 mph. To satisfy federal safety requirements, NEVs must be equipped with three-point seat belts or a lap belt, running lights, headlights, brake lights, reflectors, rear view mirrors, and turn signals. Generally, they must be titled and registered, and the driver must be licensed. Because airbags are not required the NEV cannot normally travel on highways or freeways. NEVs in many states are restricted to roads with a speed limit of 35 mph or less.
Re: (Score:2)
TFA says it can do 100kph (62 mph). That's actually the speed limit even on highways in Japan, not sure about China.
While vehicles like the Smart Fortwo might be technically capable of going faster, most people buy them as city cars, often a second vehicle for commuting.
Re: (Score:2)
The comment from OP is relevant if you consider TFS is about a Chinese car sold in Indonesia. It's possible that the China has lower standards than the Western world, or that the Chinese maker chose lower standards to make the car affordable for Indonesia.
Re: (Score:2)
WTF are you smoking?? Safety standards in the U.S. aren't likely to be any worse than they are in Western Europe, Japan or Korea.
U.S. Automotive Safety Standards are higher than any other place in the world. Between the higher Safety & Emissions Standards its nearly impossible to import a new/current non US Domestic Market model car into the US in it's stock form.. Once they are 24+y old, then you can import them as vintage and they don't have to be brought to to standards.
Re: (Score:2)
"Once they are 24+y old, then you can import them as vintage and they don't have to be brought to to standards."
Everybody imports those little 25 year old 4WD Kei trucks, with their tiny motors, they seem to be a good deal.
Re: (Score:2)
"Cool...lets import some 24 year old electric kei cars."
There are kits for that.
You can also get a new sarcasm-kit, yours has a hair-trigger.
Re: (Score:2)
A cheap 100 mile range car with very few features would be awesome but no way it could be made and meet USA safety standards.
And here I was wondering why motorcycles suddenly stopped existing in the land of the free to ride without a helmet. Thanks for clearing that up. /s
Re: (Score:2)
Affordable new cars don't sell well in the USA because buying a car is mostly just playing a game of "what financing do I qualify for?" with the dealer. Why buy a cheaper car when you can just stretch out the loan duration to fit it into your monthly budget? "Sure, you're overpaying substantially in interest fees, but you're getting a bigger, more comfortable vehicle!", the dealer will say.
If the reason you happen to need an affordable vehicle is because you're just getting started in life or hit a rough
If the car is small, safety standard do not matter (Score:2)
no way it could be made and meet USA safety standards.
Doens't have to be - with a car that small you just buy it and drive it anyway, if a police car tries to stop you just turn down a bike path and wave goodbye!
Which also means, bonus, no payments for license or registration, and it's so cheap no need to insure. In an accident just walk away and the inevitable battery fire will destroy all traces of it.
Re: (Score:2)
I wish I could moderate your post as Sad but True.
Re: (Score:2)
A cheap 100 mile range car with very few features would be awesome but no way it could be made and meet USA safety standards.
The American driving down a freeway doing 60MPH on a literal scooter without a helmet following all traffic and safety laws. Are they proving you wrong, ignorant, or both?
Re: (Score:1)
a car that small should come with a free wheelchair and colostomy bag.
In other news... (Score:1)
Re: (Score:3)
In other news, cubic zirconia "famously" outsells diamond.
And sensible people don't care about the difference.
Re: (Score:2)
Sensible people don't misuse the word "famously."
How ironic that famously has become famously infamous.
Outsold by units but not by dollars (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I could see a market for those cars in a large, gated senior community in Florida.
They already have golf carts in The Villages. I also don't see a "Chinese car" going over well with that sort of demographic, unless you hid the fact that it was Chinese.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I could see a market for those cars in a large, gated senior community in Florida.
They already have golf carts in The Villages. I also don't see a "Chinese car" going over well with that sort of demographic, unless you hid the fact that it was Chinese.
Uh huh. Tell me again how old people on a fixed income don't shop at Wal-Mart, Target, or a dozen other mega-stores that are full of Chinese product. Where you think they're buying their cheap colored sex loofas from?
Show me the American who's actually anti-Chinese, and I'll show you the mountain man living off the fucking forest. That sure as hell ain't The Villages.
Re: (Score:2)
Luckily they only do 60mph then?
Zagato (Score:2)
It somehow reminds me of that most beautiful car produced by the Italian design powerhouse Zagato: the Zele https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik... [wikipedia.org]
From the same company that did the Aston Martin DB4 GT Zagato. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik... [wikipedia.org]
Different products for different markets (Score:2)
It's worth noting that China's average household income is much less than the US. And while there is urban sprawl everywhere in the world, China has much greater density overall so people may not need to drive so far or so fast.
Cool (Score:2)
Now bring these into compliance with NHTSA's crash protection standards and we'll see what their range drops to.
welp... (Score:2, Troll)
Not for the Highway. (Score:2)
Can you imagine getting rear ended in that thing? You might get launched into Orbit.
That thing needs some Orange Track in the playroom.
Re: (Score:2)
Can you imagine getting rear ended in that thing? You might get launched into Orbit.
That thing needs some Orange Track in the playroom.
No, but it's great for city driving.
I think the issue for North America is it looks like a 2-seater.
For a person living on their own you need an all-purpose vehicle, I wouldn't want to take that thing on the highways, especially in the winter. So it doesn't really work as an only vehicle.
And people with second vehicles are typically families, a smaller commuting car and a van or SUV for bigger outings. The trouble is that it only has two seats so it doesn't really work for a family.
It probably works great f
Cost of living (Score:2)
It's an actual conspiracy (Score:2)
The auto industry has successfully lobbied our governments since forever to limit the success of small electric vehicles.
With city traffic, my average commute speed is under 60 km/h, and it's a 20km commute. I could have been driving a glorified golf cart that would not have been not as safe as a car, but much safer than a motorcycle and just been limited to roads with a limit of 60 km/h or less... but the auto industry did a lot to ensure anything that can go over half that speed has to be classified as a
$48k Leaf? (Score:2)
A $48,000 Nissan Leaf or Hyundai Ioniq is way out of most Indonesians' price brackets.
Uh, the Leaf starts at $28k. That took me all of four seconds to look up. Makes me wonder about the rest of the information in this propagan... uh, news article.
Re: (Score:3)
The thing that really annoys me about car prices is how they advertise the "starting at" price rather than the actual price at the dealer. They have no base models on the lot, and if you try to order a base model, they won't sell it to you. Years ago, I had to jump through hoops and watch multiple dealers for even a single base WRX to show up. No way was I paying an extra $8,000 for the "Limited" edition with the moonroof, HID headlights, all the extra garbage I didn't want.
So, yeah, I don't care what pr
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
The thing that really annoys me about car prices is how they advertise the "starting at" price rather than the actual price at the dealer. They have no base models on the lot, and if you try to order a base model, they won't sell it to you. Years ago, I had to jump through hoops and watch multiple dealers for even a single base WRX to show up. No way was I paying an extra $8,000 for the "Limited" edition with the moonroof, HID headlights, all the extra garbage I didn't want.
So, yeah, I don't care what price is advertised. I only care about what price is stuck to the windows of the cars they actually have for sale.
Easiest way to get dealers to work FOR you, is to make the compete against each other.
I found the car I wanted years ago. Base model. Got the VIN. Contacted five dealers in the local area, including the dealer who actually had the car on the lot. Told all of them the EXACT car I wanted and to call me with the best price. Then I let THEM fight over it and haggle down to the lowest price to make the sale.
After quite a few "that's nice, now beat it by $500 because your competition is" responses from me, I
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
A $48,000 Nissan Leaf or Hyundai Ioniq is way out of most Indonesians' price brackets.
Uh, the Leaf starts at $28k. That took me all of four seconds to look up. Makes me wonder about the rest of the information in this propagan... uh, news article.
You say "starts" as if MSRP has been relevant. I take it you haven't actually been car shopping in what, years?
Let's back up a bit. You have heard of COVID, right?
Re: (Score:2)
I take it you haven't actually been car shopping in what, years?
I bought a car just last year. I paid $5k over MSRP. And I probably would have paid $5k over MSRP on almost any decent car. So... what's your point?
Let's back up a bit. You have heard of COVID, right?
Yes. Again, what's your point? Do you just post random, obvious things to make yourself feel smarter?
We're doomed... (Score:1)