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Transportation Power

Tesla Superchargers Are Now Open To Non-Tesla EV Owners In the US (electrek.co) 271

Posted by BeauHD from the long-time-coming dept.
Tesla has finally started to open some Supercharger stations to non-Tesla electric cars owners in the US and it explained how it works. Electrek reports: As we previously reported, everything is handled through the app. Non-Tesla EV owners simply have to download the Tesla app, create an account, add a credit card for payment, and then they can roll up to some of the select few Supercharger stations now equipped with a Magic Dock -- primarily in New York for now. In the app, electric car owners can see the station and select the stall where they park. After, they simply have to grab the handle where the CCS adapter will come out of the Magic Dock:

At the moment, it appears that only half a dozen stations in the state of New York are available to non-Tesla EV owners, but the number is expected to grow rapidly as Tesla deploys the Magic Dock (the integrated CCS adapter to work with non-Tesla EVs) at more stations and builds new ones.
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Tesla Superchargers Are Now Open To Non-Tesla EV Owners In the US More

Tesla Superchargers Are Now Open To Non-Tesla EV Owners In the US

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  • Now all I need is a miniaturized air to fuel [wikipedia.org] device that can connect to a Tesla charger and it'll be time to hit the open road!

    • Nice, I saw their prototypes and it looks like a tree. Might be hard to strap that onto your non petroleum based automobile though. LOL
      • The problem with these superchargers are the charge times. Tesla is doing this for federal dollars for charging stations. I have had a model X since 18 before all the model 3s clogged the chargers. There was never a line and home charging or level 2 charging was at 72A. The new car (Plaid X) has a 48A level 2 limit. Charging is the Achilles heel, and Tesla had it solved. These new shares of the chargers make it a big issue again. Sucks.

        • Re: Neat (Score:5, Informative)

          by dgatwood ( 11270 ) on Wednesday March 01, 2023 @01:34AM (#63332001) Homepage Journal

          The problem with these superchargers are the charge times. Tesla is doing this for federal dollars for charging stations. I have had a model X since 18 before all the model 3s clogged the chargers. There was never a line and home charging or level 2 charging was at 72A. The new car (Plaid X) has a 48A level 2 limit. Charging is the Achilles heel, and Tesla had it solved. These new shares of the chargers make it a big issue again. Sucks.

          Most of the limits are caused by them not building Superchargers quickly enough to keep up with demand. They fell way behind in the Silicon Valley area for a couple of years right around the time that the Model 3 came out, but they've really massively beefed up their network since then, and I haven't encountered much in the way of lines lately as long as I avoid Mountain View and don't try to charge on a weekend.

          The reason they dropped the 72A charger was that approximately nobody used it. When you factor in the circuit derating, a 72A charger requires a 90A circuit. My entire *house* only has 100A service. Almost nobody can easily put in a 90A circuit for charging a car.

          Practically speaking, with the exception of the Tesla Wall Connector, most of the level 2 chargers on the market max out at 30A, for which a 48A internal charger is more than adequate. At 48A, you can charge even a Model X's 100 kWh battery fully in under 9 hours, assuming you have 60A of breaker box capacity to dedicate to it and one of the rare EVSEs that can actually output such high current. A more typical 30A circuit with charging capped at 24A will take twice that long. But that's why you plug it in every night, not just when you run it down all the way.

          • most of the level 2 chargers on the market max out at 30A

            Minor nit. I think that most level 2 chargers max out at 32A, to match the constant current limit of a 40A circuit and breaker.

            Practically speaking, I have a 32A dedicated charger, but I almost always charge my Model 3 using the mobile connector connected to a 30A dryer outlet, and charge at 24A, because this is always sufficiently fast.

            • I have a Level 2 - Gen 2 charger at my house, 100A breaker, 200A home service. I have the same thing in a mountain cabin (big bear), and one at the office. The biggest issue with EVs has been the chargers, and Tesla has regressed in this area. You can charge faster at a 150Kw supercharger in 2018 than you can at a 250Kw supercharger in 2023. Try driving to Vegas for the weekend.

              They have expanded the network, but it has lagged way, way behind deliveries. The lowering of level 2 charging rates in the cars

              • Having used supercharging since 2016, I absolutely don't agree that supercharging was somehow faster in 2018. I guess we could compare anecdotes, but I find that charging is generally faster now on the newer superchargers than on the old ones, in many cases dramatically so.

                I'm also not sure why you have this strong drive to push for 72A or similar home Level 2 charging. I've been using a 40A Level 2 charging solution for 7 years and never felt like I wasn't getting a "reasonable charge rate". For destinatio

                • Re: (Score:2)

                  by dfghjk ( 711126 )

                  "The only time I felt like I needed faster home Level 2 charging was when I got back from an overnight drive in the early AM and knew I had to get up and do errands a few hours later...since I was just about empty when I got home, I could have used a little bit of extra amperage."

                  And even that need is imaginary. You're saying that a minimum of 20 Kw is not enough to "do errands" but you couldn't consider this the night before or be inconvenienced by a charging stop during the errands? How much would you b

                  • Clearly since I already said that I only felt like I needed more amperage once in a 7 year period...the amount I'd pay for a solution is about $0.

                    • I guess my use case is more unique, but I drive about 25-30k a year (which is a lot vs the average), but the main gripe is it used to be faster in the old car. Mostly it was for when driving to clients in the mornings, and getting to work, charging there, then going home to charge there; and then going up to Big Bear for the weekend. Iâ(TM)ve had to wait for enough juice to get myself up the mountain, whereas with the old car I maybe have to wait on it, once, twice? My packing time and getting in the c
                • Charging at 72A every time also couldn't be good for battery longevity

              • Re: (Score:2)

                by dfghjk ( 711126 )

                "The biggest issue with EVs has been the chargers..."

                Then buy an ICE, consumption is a feature for you. How dare Tesla not optimize your environmentalism on your weekend trips to Vegas.

              • Re: Neat (Score:5, Interesting)

                by dgatwood ( 11270 ) on Wednesday March 01, 2023 @03:46AM (#63332181) Homepage Journal

                I have a Level 2 - Gen 2 charger at my house, 100A breaker, 200A home service. I have the same thing in a mountain cabin (big bear), and one at the office. The biggest issue with EVs has been the chargers, and Tesla has regressed in this area. You can charge faster at a 150Kw supercharger in 2018 than you can at a 250Kw supercharger in 2023.

                Only if you're charging at a supercharger that has a long line. Assuming no line, the 250 KW superchargers are way faster. Even before they changed the configuration to allow older Model S and Model X 100D cars to charge at more 150 KW (I think the peak for pre-Raven builds is 170 KW or so), the taper has always been significantly less steep (more time at higher power) on the 250 KW superchargers, at least for the 100D packs.

                Also, most of the 150 KW superchargers that I encountered, statistically speaking, were already having serious problems by the time the 250 KW stations started arriving. From what I've read, the old V2 chargers probably have some kind of thermal design problem, causing the charge boards to fail prematurely at high-usage stations. The net result is that half the stalls would charge at obscene speeds like 30 KW even without a second car next to it.

                And that's before you deal with the stall pairing problem, where the two stalls share 150 KW of total power, and if somebody just pulled in with an empty car, you'll only be able to steal a trickle until their car tapers, and now you've just added fifteen minutes to your charging time.

                The V3 Superchargers can be underpowered in a high-usage station if the transformer is undersized and the battery banks are all drained, but even in that degenerate state, they're still roughly as fast as V2, if my memory of the math is correct.

                No, the V2 Superchargers were an absolute disaster compared with the V3 Superchargers. Unless, of course, you're talking about the length of the lines waiting to charge in certain places. But that's not the fault of the Superchargers, per se. :-)

                • I know the 250s are faster. It is the line in some places that I was talking about. Needles has 4 supercharger plugs. On a Friday when headed to the river, there is always a line at the end of that i40 stretch between Barstow and Needles. They really need a station around Ludlow

            • most of the level 2 chargers on the market max out at 30A

              Actually, having just been shopping for a Level 2 charger for our garage, most max out at 48A (if direct wired) and 40A (if using a NEMA 14-50 plug). You need at least a 50A circuit to supply them.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by dfghjk ( 711126 )

            "A more typical 30A circuit with charging capped at 24A will take twice that long. But that's why you plug it in every night, not just when you run it down all the way."

            And you neither charge to 100% or run a car to 0% every day either, meaning that even a 24A Level 2 is adequate for overnight charging the vast majority of the time. And you don't plug in every day unless you need to, but that is preferable to bitching about an inability to exploit a dedicated 100A service that few can even have and no one

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by dfghjk ( 711126 )

          Because a solution for you is all that matters.

  • Rollout happening in other places, too (Score:3)

    by dgatwood ( 11270 ) on Wednesday March 01, 2023 @01:19AM (#63331985) Homepage Journal

    I'm about 99% sure that's what they were doing when they shut down the Scotts Valley, CA Supercharger last Monday. Anyway, I noticed last Wednesday that you now have to hit the button on the handle to release the Tesla handle, and it latches into something that has metal contacts.

    I initially assumed they were just tired of people leaving the cords on the ground whenever they fell off of the hooks, and built hardware so that it could properly latch into something, but with the benefit of hindsight, I realize that I was apparently one of the first people to see one of the first of these. Neat. :-D

  • They might as well (Score:3)

    by bobjr94 ( 1120555 ) on Wednesday March 01, 2023 @01:32AM (#63331995) Homepage
    The videos posted on youtube today that had people charging their non tesla's all showed them at totally empty tesla charging stations. So they were just sitting there unused. Only issue is the charge cables are too short and some cars need to take block a charger, I would expect they will probably add longer cables to at least a few stalls at each opened station soon.

    • Re:They might as well (Score:5, Interesting)

      by dgatwood ( 11270 ) on Wednesday March 01, 2023 @01:41AM (#63332005) Homepage Journal

      The videos posted on youtube today that had people charging their non tesla's all showed them at totally empty tesla charging stations. So they were just sitting there unused. Only issue is the charge cables are too short and some cars need to take block a charger, I would expect they will probably add longer cables to at least a few stalls at each opened station soon.

      I really don't understand why so many car companies put their charge ports on the passenger side or on the front of the driver's side. You should always back into parking places, because you're way less likely to pull out in front of another car while backing in than while backing out. So charge ports should be on the rear of the car. And they should always be on the driver's side so you don't have to walk all the way around the vehicle to plug in.

      So the problem isn't that Tesla's cords are too short. The problem is that some other EV manufacturers weren't being sensible when they decided where to put their charge ports....

      • Having switched to a different EV from my old Tesla I hadn't thought about this...you're absolutely right...the short length of the Tesla Supercharger cord is absolutely not going to reach the charge port on the passenger side of a car!

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by dfghjk ( 711126 )

        "You should always back into parking places..."

        No you shouldn't, and many parking places are designed only be driven into forward, not reverse. This is a hindsight argument.

        "So charge ports should be on the rear of the car. And they should always be on the driver's side so you don't have to walk all the way around the vehicle to plug in."

        More hindsight argument, because that's how Tesla does it.

        Just as good an argument would be that charge ports should be located where fuel ports are on the cars most drive

        • People that back into spaces get on my nerves anyway. They back their big SUV into spots at places like Costco, Sams, Lowes, etc without considering how they plan to load the vehicle. Its like a tractor-trailer pulling into a loading bay tractor first. Ive been known to make a point by backing into the spot opposite of them and getting close enough they cannot open their lift gate. Dumbasses back into a spot and show up with 8ft sections of lumber coming out of the store. Fucktards. Keep the loading end of
        • Is there any reason why there could not be two ports in a car depending on which side is closer?

      • > So charge ports should be on the rear of the car. And they should always be on the driver's side so you don't have to walk all the way around the vehicle to plug in.

        Difficulty: It makes curb-side charging practically impossible; the cable needs to go around, some over, the car and stick out into traffic to reach any port on the driver's side.

        Right side front is the most universal location. In spaces you must park nose-in. covered. For spaces you can back into, you can always pull nose-in so you're cove

      • No. They should be in the front. Did you ever see people park at superchargers? It is much easier to drive straight in and get an accurate positioning. If you are trailering you can not back in. This alone should be a deal breaker.

      • You should always back into parking places, because you're way less likely to pull out in front of another car while backing in than while backing out.

        If you know how to drive, then you pull out of the parking space slowly. But a lot of people don't know how to drive, and they should under no circumstances back into parking spaces, because the odds of them hitting another vehicle are high. If you know how to drive, you also drive through parking lots slowly, looking for vehicles that might pull out, and ready to honk your horn if someone starts to do something stupid. So very much no. In fact, in a substantial number of parking lots there are signs explic

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by tippen ( 704534 )

        No, the real solution is that EV charging stations need to learn from how gas stations work. They should be covered pull-through setups.

        Not only is that more flexible, it makes it reasonable to queue up when all the chargers are full. It's an absolute mess when the chargers are full at smaller (4-6 stall) stations and no one can tell where the line is.

  • I think this is all about getting that sweet subsidy money for new chargers.

    If they have retrofitted any chargers, this will just be for proof of technology.

    Not mentioned is why they are requiring an app to start charging? Since CCS supports some kind of vehicle ID being passed to the charger, it's conceptually possible that charging could be initiated by the charger recognizing the car as soon as it it plugged in and associating an account with the car.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by dfghjk ( 711126 )

      "If they have retrofitted any chargers, this will just be for proof of technology."

      It's because they negotiated the retrofits with the government to quality for the free money. Proof of technology could be done differently. Musk will assuredly retrofit as few stations as required and choose them based solely on his personal interests.

      "...it's conceptually possible that charging could be initiated by the charger recognizing the car as soon as it it plugged in and associating an account with the car."

      It is

  • "Just install the app" (Score:5, Insightful)

    by DrXym ( 126579 ) on Wednesday March 01, 2023 @03:25AM (#63332141)

    As an interim measure, using an app might be acceptable, but the law should really require all public chargers, including Tesla's to accept a credit card directly - drive up to a charge station, plug car in, select some options on a screen, tap or swipe a card.

    It should not require users to have a smart phone, let alone one loaded up with a dozen apps for different charging networks. It should not require that a person has a "relationship" of any kind with the charging network. Nor should people paying with a card be penalised for doing so, e.g. punitive charging rates or times base on how they pay or the car they drive.

    That doesn't stop the network from having an app for other reasons but it should be optional and not a requirement of doing business.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by bgarcia ( 33222 )

      If the government were to require such an interface, it wouldn't be too terribly difficult for Tesla to duct-tape an ipad with a credit card reader somewhere on-site to satisfy the whingy EV owners who can't be bothered to install yet another app.

      • If I'm stuck having to use a Tesla charger, requiring an app install to refuel is just plain stupid.
      • Comment removed based on user account deletion
        • Yeah, I'm not installing an app to charge my car. That's bullshit. I'm going to be putting that on the list of things to ask about when I am forced to buy an EV.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by DrXym ( 126579 )

        Being able to roll up to a charging station with any car and paying with a common payment card isn't being "whingy", it's about ensuring fairness, convenience and freedom of choice for consumers.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      The EU has already mandated this. Companies are allowed to use a website to accept payment, but they have to take credit card, no account, no special app.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by DrXym ( 126579 )

        Yes I'm aware of it although it's only new chargers from 2023 with a sunset cutoff for the old ones. There is still a huge proliferation of apps, services, proprietary payment systems that will take some time to die out. I also fear that the legislation is so loose that many providers will slap a QR code sticker onto the charger and say "pay through the app", or "pay through the website" which is bullshit quite frankly.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by DarkOx ( 621550 )

      The law will never do anything of the sort. Government would LOVE nothing more than to be absolutely sure you are not traveling without your voluntary subservience device.

      Just imagine a world were you could drive a few hundred miles fueling up with cash along the way to protest a rigged election. Without creating 1000x sigint datapoints before your arrival.

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by narcc ( 412956 )

        Ah, I see. I wasn't paying attention to your .sig earlier so I didn't notice that you were an idiot.

        Don't worry, "the government" isn't out to get you. You're just not that important.

  • After reading all this, I've decided if I'm ever forced to buy an EV I'll just use the 30W port on my gas generator to charge the car.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by ichthus ( 72442 )
      Or, you could, you know, plug it into the ~1800W port on your wall.
      • It would cost me several thousand to get one to where I can park my car. And I have four drivers in my house so I need that x4.
        • Uh none of this makes any sense. I assume you meant a 3000W generator not a 30W generator. And then the reply talks about 1800W but that's nonsense too. You get 1500W out of a standard 15A circuit here in North America. That should cost approximately zero if you park anywhere near a building and are able to run an extension cord. On the other hand, an 18000W charger would be quite monstrous to have at your home. I don't own an EV but, if I did, I would gladly just plug it into the existing 15A circuit
          • I think my generator is 11000W peak and 9000W sustained. It has a 30A (worry meant 30A) outlet.

            I don't like the thought of having a vehicle that I have to wait for if I or a member of my family have an emergency, or if I simply decide last minute I want to go out. that's not a functional vehicle to me, so I want a fast charge. I only have one vehicle so I would be stranded while it is charging. Can you even charge an EV on a single long extension cord? I know anything with a compressor won't run on

        • Think of it this way: every time you fill up on petroleum, you're paying fuel costs of at least double per mile driven vs electric.

          With 4 drivers, that becomes a significant incentive.

          4 cars running 30mpg @ 12k miles/year.
          $0.10 in gasoline per mile (@ $3/gallon),
          =$4800
          4 cars running 3 mi/kWh @ 12k miiles/year
          $0.033 in electricity per mile (@ $0.10/kWh)
          =$1584

          That first year you save $3200 in fuel. Sounds like "several thousand dollars" to me.

          • I'll have my ICE vehicle loan paid off in two months (Ford Explorer). If I had bought the comparable EV it would have been a model X and my loan would have been another six years and two months. I will happily pay for gas, even at far higher prices than they are today especially since I don't drive it every day. It would take forever for me to have a Model X pay off in terms of electric savings.
  • If Tesla folds, where are the parts going to come from?
    • There is a requirement in the US that manufacturers of automobiles provide parts for seven years. If Tesla is bankrupt, obviously, there will be no parts from them but somebody will buy the bankruptcy assets and make over-priced parts. If they aren't bankrupt they can't just close up shop.

  • CHAdeMO (Score:3)

    by John_Sauter ( 595980 ) <John_Sauter@systemeyescomputerstore.com> on Wednesday March 01, 2023 @03:37PM (#63333783) Homepage

    It appears that Tesla is adding CCS1 adapters to its Superchargers, but not CHAdeMO adapters. That will mean that the Nissan LEAF will not be able to charge at a Tesla Supercharger. Non-Tesla DC Fast Charger stations usually include one CHAdeMO dispenser along with serveral CCS1 dispensers. There is an adapter which will let a Tesla charge at a CHAdeMO dispenser, but not the reverse. There is also no adapter which will let a Nissan LEAF charge at a CCS1 dispenser.

    Like all North American electric vehicles, the Nissan LEAF does have a J1772 AC charging port, but charging through that port is slow.

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