Tesla Superchargers Are Now Open To Non-Tesla EV Owners In the US (electrek.co) 271
Tesla has finally started to open some Supercharger stations to non-Tesla electric cars owners in the US and it explained how it works. Electrek reports: As we previously reported, everything is handled through the app. Non-Tesla EV owners simply have to download the Tesla app, create an account, add a credit card for payment, and then they can roll up to some of the select few Supercharger stations now equipped with a Magic Dock -- primarily in New York for now. In the app, electric car owners can see the station and select the stall where they park. After, they simply have to grab the handle where the CCS adapter will come out of the Magic Dock:
At the moment, it appears that only half a dozen stations in the state of New York are available to non-Tesla EV owners, but the number is expected to grow rapidly as Tesla deploys the Magic Dock (the integrated CCS adapter to work with non-Tesla EVs) at more stations and builds new ones.
At the moment, it appears that only half a dozen stations in the state of New York are available to non-Tesla EV owners, but the number is expected to grow rapidly as Tesla deploys the Magic Dock (the integrated CCS adapter to work with non-Tesla EVs) at more stations and builds new ones.
Neat (Score:2)
Now all I need is a miniaturized air to fuel [wikipedia.org] device that can connect to a Tesla charger and it'll be time to hit the open road!
Re: Neat (Score:2)
Re: Neat (Score:2)
Re: Neat (Score:5, Informative)
The problem with these superchargers are the charge times. Tesla is doing this for federal dollars for charging stations. I have had a model X since 18 before all the model 3s clogged the chargers. There was never a line and home charging or level 2 charging was at 72A. The new car (Plaid X) has a 48A level 2 limit. Charging is the Achilles heel, and Tesla had it solved. These new shares of the chargers make it a big issue again. Sucks.
Most of the limits are caused by them not building Superchargers quickly enough to keep up with demand. They fell way behind in the Silicon Valley area for a couple of years right around the time that the Model 3 came out, but they've really massively beefed up their network since then, and I haven't encountered much in the way of lines lately as long as I avoid Mountain View and don't try to charge on a weekend.
The reason they dropped the 72A charger was that approximately nobody used it. When you factor in the circuit derating, a 72A charger requires a 90A circuit. My entire *house* only has 100A service. Almost nobody can easily put in a 90A circuit for charging a car.
Practically speaking, with the exception of the Tesla Wall Connector, most of the level 2 chargers on the market max out at 30A, for which a 48A internal charger is more than adequate. At 48A, you can charge even a Model X's 100 kWh battery fully in under 9 hours, assuming you have 60A of breaker box capacity to dedicate to it and one of the rare EVSEs that can actually output such high current. A more typical 30A circuit with charging capped at 24A will take twice that long. But that's why you plug it in every night, not just when you run it down all the way.
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most of the level 2 chargers on the market max out at 30A
Minor nit. I think that most level 2 chargers max out at 32A, to match the constant current limit of a 40A circuit and breaker.
Practically speaking, I have a 32A dedicated charger, but I almost always charge my Model 3 using the mobile connector connected to a 30A dryer outlet, and charge at 24A, because this is always sufficiently fast.
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They have expanded the network, but it has lagged way, way behind deliveries. The lowering of level 2 charging rates in the cars
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Having used supercharging since 2016, I absolutely don't agree that supercharging was somehow faster in 2018. I guess we could compare anecdotes, but I find that charging is generally faster now on the newer superchargers than on the old ones, in many cases dramatically so.
I'm also not sure why you have this strong drive to push for 72A or similar home Level 2 charging. I've been using a 40A Level 2 charging solution for 7 years and never felt like I wasn't getting a "reasonable charge rate". For destinatio
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"The only time I felt like I needed faster home Level 2 charging was when I got back from an overnight drive in the early AM and knew I had to get up and do errands a few hours later...since I was just about empty when I got home, I could have used a little bit of extra amperage."
And even that need is imaginary. You're saying that a minimum of 20 Kw is not enough to "do errands" but you couldn't consider this the night before or be inconvenienced by a charging stop during the errands? How much would you b
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Clearly since I already said that I only felt like I needed more amperage once in a 7 year period...the amount I'd pay for a solution is about $0.
Re: Neat (Score:2)
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"The biggest issue with EVs has been the chargers..."
Then buy an ICE, consumption is a feature for you. How dare Tesla not optimize your environmentalism on your weekend trips to Vegas.
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consumption is a feature for you
Take a look in the mirror there, buddy.
From what I've witnessed...the EV crowd are the exact type of people that try to justify replacing their car/computer/phone/clothes/shoes etc on very short time intervals.
Model X owner here. I change cars every 10 years. I change computers every 6-ish years, with the exception of my Touch Bar abomination, which I replaced almost the very second that the 16" M1 MacBook Pro came on the market.
There are people who buy EVs because they're into conspicuous consumption, but don't assume that's all EV owners, or anywhere close. :-)
Re: Neat (Score:5, Interesting)
I have a Level 2 - Gen 2 charger at my house, 100A breaker, 200A home service. I have the same thing in a mountain cabin (big bear), and one at the office. The biggest issue with EVs has been the chargers, and Tesla has regressed in this area. You can charge faster at a 150Kw supercharger in 2018 than you can at a 250Kw supercharger in 2023.
Only if you're charging at a supercharger that has a long line. Assuming no line, the 250 KW superchargers are way faster. Even before they changed the configuration to allow older Model S and Model X 100D cars to charge at more 150 KW (I think the peak for pre-Raven builds is 170 KW or so), the taper has always been significantly less steep (more time at higher power) on the 250 KW superchargers, at least for the 100D packs.
Also, most of the 150 KW superchargers that I encountered, statistically speaking, were already having serious problems by the time the 250 KW stations started arriving. From what I've read, the old V2 chargers probably have some kind of thermal design problem, causing the charge boards to fail prematurely at high-usage stations. The net result is that half the stalls would charge at obscene speeds like 30 KW even without a second car next to it.
And that's before you deal with the stall pairing problem, where the two stalls share 150 KW of total power, and if somebody just pulled in with an empty car, you'll only be able to steal a trickle until their car tapers, and now you've just added fifteen minutes to your charging time.
The V3 Superchargers can be underpowered in a high-usage station if the transformer is undersized and the battery banks are all drained, but even in that degenerate state, they're still roughly as fast as V2, if my memory of the math is correct.
No, the V2 Superchargers were an absolute disaster compared with the V3 Superchargers. Unless, of course, you're talking about the length of the lines waiting to charge in certain places. But that's not the fault of the Superchargers, per se. :-)
Re: Neat (Score:2)
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most of the level 2 chargers on the market max out at 30A
Actually, having just been shopping for a Level 2 charger for our garage, most max out at 48A (if direct wired) and 40A (if using a NEMA 14-50 plug). You need at least a 50A circuit to supply them.
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"A more typical 30A circuit with charging capped at 24A will take twice that long. But that's why you plug it in every night, not just when you run it down all the way."
And you neither charge to 100% or run a car to 0% every day either, meaning that even a 24A Level 2 is adequate for overnight charging the vast majority of the time. And you don't plug in every day unless you need to, but that is preferable to bitching about an inability to exploit a dedicated 100A service that few can even have and no one
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My son doesn't have a garage, though he does have a driveway to park off street next to his house, and he is getting an EV (if they ever deliver it). He will have a Level 2 charger mounted outside on the wall at home and a Level 2 charger in the parking lot at work.
It is possible to have chargers installed in apartment parking, or even street parking, and where not available, you will eventually have as many public charging stations as we have gas stations now (I kn
Re: Neat (Score:2)
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And for those that dont have garages? Which is over 60% of Americans, according to John Oliver. What do they do when places like CA legislate only the rich get to drive (bans on ICE and gas stations)?
Since when did having a garage become a necessary prerequisite for charging an EV? I can charge my EV at my apartment complex where I had a charger installed at the parking space that comes with my apartment, at my place of work, at various malls and supermarkets and at charging stations. Between that and the fact that I don't drive thousands of kilometers every week since I live less than 20 km from my place of work I'm generally fine except for those few times I go on a long holiday that involves a lot of
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Because a solution for you is all that matters.
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Yeah...........I just go fill up my gas tank in a few minutes..............once every other week.
And I plug in my car at home and never have to go to a gas station at all. My monthly "gas" bill is about $10-20.
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Re: Neat (Score:2)
If they have a Tesla, odds are they can afford solar panels. In Phoenix for example, if you have solar, then you're probably paying 3.6 cents per kw for overnight charging. And that applies even if your solar panels aren't even working.
Re: Neat (Score:2)
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"My monthly "gas" bill is about $10-20."
Because you drive your car a few hundred miles per month.
Even assuming an electric cost of $0.10/Kw, far lower than typical, $20 is 200Kw which would provide only 700 miles using the most efficient BEV.
Or you are lying.
Our electricity costs $0.11 per kW, and yes, I drive under 1000 miles a month. If I happen to work on a weekend, I also have access to a free L2 charger at work, hence the range as low as $10.
I'll make it easy for you and break that down...my electrical cost to drive is about $0.04 per mile. No matter how you slice it, that's way cheaper than gasoline...and I still don't have to spend time at a station.
Re: Neat (Score:2)
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Or you are lying.
This is /. so could just be bad at Math. :-)
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The average mileage of a US car is 1123 miles a month [caranddriver.com], so the GP's data are perfectly credible.
Also, it's pretty easy to set up some smart charging logic to charge the car in the middle of the night when electricity is cheapest. Tesla has it out of the box.
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charge the car in the middle of the night when electricity is cheapest.
Yes. I have a smart meter and pay 7 cents/kwh between 2 and 4 am, so that's when I charge my EV.
Tesla has it out of the box.
Yup. Took me 20 seconds to set it up.
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Tesla has it out of the box.
So does Ford/Lincoln. Our Corsair Grand Touring is set to charge when home between 10pm to 3am, when electric rates are the lowest. But, we rarely use power from the grid except during July-Sept because we have solar and a Tesla Powerwall. So, the car charges on sunshine, mostly.
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"My monthly "gas" bill is about $10-20."
Because you drive your car a few hundred miles per month.
Even assuming an electric cost of $0.10/Kw, far lower than typical, $20 is 200Kw which would provide only 700 miles using the most efficient BEV.
Or you are lying.
How about you address the part where he almost never has to go to a "gas station".
(which was the primary point being made, not the cost)
Re: Neat (Score:2, Insightful)
Re: Neat (Score:2)
It's a worthy concern to keep an eye on.
However, in the immediate term, if you have a housing or work situation that is amenable, then things can be good. Being wary that the work situation may be overwhelmed with increasing adoption. Even if that portion only is able to go EV, that's a huge diversification of energy demand and flexibility to control emissions.
As to those for home casual charging is not feasible, we need to discuss, but not be hopeless. In 1900 one could have said cars are equally infeas
Re: Neat (Score:3)
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Well, to be fair, in 1900, your life did not depend so much on being able to travel miles daily for work, food, shopping, etc.....you were a lot more self sufficient at home in those days.
Re: Neat (Score:2)
700 miles in a month is realistic, on the side of light driving. But that hardly matters, what matters would be comparing gas for same miles traveled.
To go that in a moderately efficient car would be about $65 to $100, depending on gas prices of the moment.
Ignoring potential offsetting by having residential solar as well.
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There are lots of overnight charging rates available in the US that are even lower than .10/kWh, and 200kWh would get me over 800 miles in my EV.
Re: Neat (Score:2)
Lol I have to stop to charge my car â¦â¦. Literally never. It gets 396 miles to a charge and charges overnight while I sleep. The thing ICE owners refuse to get us that EVs are actually a lot more convenient than gas cars, not less.
Re: Neat (Score:2)
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Exactly.
Case in point - I have a 200 amp service. There is no way I could add a level 2 charger, not if want to continue to heat the house and have hot water anyway.
Another thing the BEV owners miss is a lot of more rural places are already more 'electrified' than they are. They are in the suburban neighbor hood with their natural gas furnace and natural gas water heater (tankless or tank) and yes their 200 amp service leaves them with ample head room to slap charger on the wall.
This is NOT so for most of
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What?
Adding a Level 2 charger -- the electrical equivalent to a standard oven or clothes dryer socket -- is trivial to a 200 amp service. While the Average American drives around 37 miles per day, you say you're out in a rural area and probably drive more. But unless you're putting 200 miles a day on a car, that charger is only going to be drawing amps for a couple hours at night -- when everything else except maybe the HVAC is asleep.
Oh, and I'd strongly suggest you look into a hybrid electric heat pump wa
Re: Neat (Score:2)
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I understand that L2 charger only *needs* to be 30 amp. However if you have standard-ish situation where you might for example be cooking on your 50A stove, doing laundry at the same time, and happen to have the heat pump and water heater cycle - no an unrealistic situation in winter for mom, dad and 2.3 children + other house hold loads and you can get into problem territory.
The actual rules for how much amperage you can put into the panel is a function of number of circuits and square footage of the buil
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I get all that. What I'm trying to point out is...none of that dishwasher/dryer/stove while charging the car stuff happens -- unless you're a vampire. Pretty much every EV out there comes built-in with schedule-the-charging-time. You might plug it in when you get home from work, but it won't kick on until something like 1:00 a.m. when none of the rest of that stuff is happening. Are you really expecting to be doing all that other stuff between 1:00 and 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning?
Except for those rare insta
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Case in point - I have a 200 amp service. There is no way I could add a level 2 charger, not if want to continue to heat the house and have hot water anyway
WTH???? We have 200A service. We have a 50A dedicated circuit for the EV charging station. We also have electric dryer, water heater, pool pump, 5-ton A/C, etc. There's no problem supplying power for charging a car.
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The bans being proposed are not on existing ICE automobiles, but on sales of new ICE automobiles. The most prominent ban that Google brings up is California's ban on sales of new ICE-only vehicles by 2035 - hybrid vehicle sales would still be allowed. It would be 20 years until a 2045 ban goes into effect, which gives time for a lot of infrastructure improvements to accommodate the switch, and it wo
Re: Neat (Score:2)
Why are hybrids not pushed? (Score:2)
For a lot of people who don't have access to chargers (i.e. a lot of apartment people who are lucky to just get parking at all, much less covered parking), what is wrong with plug-in hybrids? Jeep put out a memo that people actually plug in with their 4xes, so that is something that people are doing.
Yes, hybrids may be heavier than pure EVs... but the perfect is the enemy of the good and moving to hybrids is a good step in that direction until we can get infrastructure in place for people who don't even kn
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Rollout happening in other places, too (Score:3)
I'm about 99% sure that's what they were doing when they shut down the Scotts Valley, CA Supercharger last Monday. Anyway, I noticed last Wednesday that you now have to hit the button on the handle to release the Tesla handle, and it latches into something that has metal contacts.
I initially assumed they were just tired of people leaving the cords on the ground whenever they fell off of the hooks, and built hardware so that it could properly latch into something, but with the benefit of hindsight, I realize that I was apparently one of the first people to see one of the first of these. Neat. :-D
They might as well (Score:3)
Re:They might as well (Score:5, Interesting)
The videos posted on youtube today that had people charging their non tesla's all showed them at totally empty tesla charging stations. So they were just sitting there unused. Only issue is the charge cables are too short and some cars need to take block a charger, I would expect they will probably add longer cables to at least a few stalls at each opened station soon.
I really don't understand why so many car companies put their charge ports on the passenger side or on the front of the driver's side. You should always back into parking places, because you're way less likely to pull out in front of another car while backing in than while backing out. So charge ports should be on the rear of the car. And they should always be on the driver's side so you don't have to walk all the way around the vehicle to plug in.
So the problem isn't that Tesla's cords are too short. The problem is that some other EV manufacturers weren't being sensible when they decided where to put their charge ports....
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Having switched to a different EV from my old Tesla I hadn't thought about this...you're absolutely right...the short length of the Tesla Supercharger cord is absolutely not going to reach the charge port on the passenger side of a car!
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"You should always back into parking places..."
No you shouldn't, and many parking places are designed only be driven into forward, not reverse. This is a hindsight argument.
"So charge ports should be on the rear of the car. And they should always be on the driver's side so you don't have to walk all the way around the vehicle to plug in."
More hindsight argument, because that's how Tesla does it.
Just as good an argument would be that charge ports should be located where fuel ports are on the cars most drive
Re: They might as well (Score:2)
Re: They might as well (Score:2)
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> So charge ports should be on the rear of the car. And they should always be on the driver's side so you don't have to walk all the way around the vehicle to plug in.
Difficulty: It makes curb-side charging practically impossible; the cable needs to go around, some over, the car and stick out into traffic to reach any port on the driver's side.
Right side front is the most universal location. In spaces you must park nose-in. covered. For spaces you can back into, you can always pull nose-in so you're cove
Re:Charge ports in the rear (Score:2)
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You should always back into parking places, because you're way less likely to pull out in front of another car while backing in than while backing out.
If you know how to drive, then you pull out of the parking space slowly. But a lot of people don't know how to drive, and they should under no circumstances back into parking spaces, because the odds of them hitting another vehicle are high. If you know how to drive, you also drive through parking lots slowly, looking for vehicles that might pull out, and ready to honk your horn if someone starts to do something stupid. So very much no. In fact, in a substantial number of parking lots there are signs explic
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No, the real solution is that EV charging stations need to learn from how gas stations work. They should be covered pull-through setups.
Not only is that more flexible, it makes it reasonable to queue up when all the chargers are full. It's an absolute mess when the chargers are full at smaller (4-6 stall) stations and no one can tell where the line is.
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"Frontins are usually meant so that the exhaust faces the other direction - so not really applicable to EVs."
WTF? Angled parking places are easier to access, safer, and are "frontin" only.
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"Frontins are usually meant so that the exhaust faces the other direction - so not really applicable to EVs."
WTF? Angled parking places are easier to access, safer, and are "frontin" only.
Only if they're angled the same direction on a one-way aisle. For a bidirectional aisle, parking nose in is still considerably less safe than backing in, even with angled parking.
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Frontins are usually meant so that the exhaust faces the other direction - so not really applicable to EVs.
Shortel cable may also be a bit better as resistive losses are smaller.
Yes, when you're dealing with an estimated 800 amps [cleantechnica.com] of charging current, there are likely practical limits to how long the wires can be and still be of a gauge that allows a human to bend it to plug it in.... :-)
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In Germany, there are a lot of charging ports in the streets. You get free parking and cheap electricity, so they are convenient. But Tesla has the charge port setup in such way that I can only use half of the slots.
Are the cords too short to reach or something?
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Correct, because German cars put their fuel, and charging, ports on the passenger side away from traffic where it should be except when your decision is driven only by saving a few feet of walking while at a supercharger. They do this because it is safer when it is accessed in public spaces, a concern that Tesla doesn't share, FSD considered.
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Consider that the same vehicles are generally also sold in LHD markets (japan, uk, australia, many countries in asia) and now the fuel/charging port is on the wrong side facing towards traffic.
Also most pumps/chargers are not immediately adjacent to traffic lanes, you generally drive off the road and into a gas station so making the driver get out of the car and walk around to the opposite side of the vehicle is less safe and less convenient. If the fuel cap is on the same side as the driver, then he gets o
Your taxes at work. (Score:2)
I think this is all about getting that sweet subsidy money for new chargers.
If they have retrofitted any chargers, this will just be for proof of technology.
Not mentioned is why they are requiring an app to start charging? Since CCS supports some kind of vehicle ID being passed to the charger, it's conceptually possible that charging could be initiated by the charger recognizing the car as soon as it it plugged in and associating an account with the car.
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"If they have retrofitted any chargers, this will just be for proof of technology."
It's because they negotiated the retrofits with the government to quality for the free money. Proof of technology could be done differently. Musk will assuredly retrofit as few stations as required and choose them based solely on his personal interests.
"...it's conceptually possible that charging could be initiated by the charger recognizing the car as soon as it it plugged in and associating an account with the car."
It is
"Just install the app" (Score:5, Insightful)
As an interim measure, using an app might be acceptable, but the law should really require all public chargers, including Tesla's to accept a credit card directly - drive up to a charge station, plug car in, select some options on a screen, tap or swipe a card.
It should not require users to have a smart phone, let alone one loaded up with a dozen apps for different charging networks. It should not require that a person has a "relationship" of any kind with the charging network. Nor should people paying with a card be penalised for doing so, e.g. punitive charging rates or times base on how they pay or the car they drive.
That doesn't stop the network from having an app for other reasons but it should be optional and not a requirement of doing business.
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If the government were to require such an interface, it wouldn't be too terribly difficult for Tesla to duct-tape an ipad with a credit card reader somewhere on-site to satisfy the whingy EV owners who can't be bothered to install yet another app.
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Being able to roll up to a charging station with any car and paying with a common payment card isn't being "whingy", it's about ensuring fairness, convenience and freedom of choice for consumers.
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The EU has already mandated this. Companies are allowed to use a website to accept payment, but they have to take credit card, no account, no special app.
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Yes I'm aware of it although it's only new chargers from 2023 with a sunset cutoff for the old ones. There is still a huge proliferation of apps, services, proprietary payment systems that will take some time to die out. I also fear that the legislation is so loose that many providers will slap a QR code sticker onto the charger and say "pay through the app", or "pay through the website" which is bullshit quite frankly.
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The law will never do anything of the sort. Government would LOVE nothing more than to be absolutely sure you are not traveling without your voluntary subservience device.
Just imagine a world were you could drive a few hundred miles fueling up with cash along the way to protest a rigged election. Without creating 1000x sigint datapoints before your arrival.
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Ah, I see. I wasn't paying attention to your .sig earlier so I didn't notice that you were an idiot.
Don't worry, "the government" isn't out to get you. You're just not that important.
Pain in the ARSE (Score:2)
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I don't like the thought of having a vehicle that I have to wait for if I or a member of my family have an emergency, or if I simply decide last minute I want to go out. that's not a functional vehicle to me, so I want a fast charge. I only have one vehicle so I would be stranded while it is charging. Can you even charge an EV on a single long extension cord? I know anything with a compressor won't run on
Pays off in year 1 (Score:2)
Think of it this way: every time you fill up on petroleum, you're paying fuel costs of at least double per mile driven vs electric.
With 4 drivers, that becomes a significant incentive.
4 cars running 30mpg @ 12k miles/year.
$0.10 in gasoline per mile (@ $3/gallon),
=$4800
4 cars running 3 mi/kWh @ 12k miiles/year
$0.033 in electricity per mile (@ $0.10/kWh)
=$1584
That first year you save $3200 in fuel. Sounds like "several thousand dollars" to me.
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Sell Your Tesla - While You Can (Score:2)
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CHAdeMO (Score:3)
It appears that Tesla is adding CCS1 adapters to its Superchargers, but not CHAdeMO adapters. That will mean that the Nissan LEAF will not be able to charge at a Tesla Supercharger. Non-Tesla DC Fast Charger stations usually include one CHAdeMO dispenser along with serveral CCS1 dispensers. There is an adapter which will let a Tesla charge at a CHAdeMO dispenser, but not the reverse. There is also no adapter which will let a Nissan LEAF charge at a CCS1 dispenser.
Like all North American electric vehicles, the Nissan LEAF does have a J1772 AC charging port, but charging through that port is slow.
Re:How much of this is powered by Solar and Wind? (Score:5, Insightful)
Even when EVs are charged from carbon-emitting electrical generation, the round-trip efficiency bests carbon-fueled (ICE) vehicles by 2-3x.
As carbon-emitting fuels are phased out for non-emitting, it's becoming less true month by month.
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No dumbo, they're powered by the grid which is a blend of fossil fuels, nuclear, renewables. Increasingly over time it is renewables. Aside which, even if it were all fossil fuels it would still be better from an efficiency standpoint.
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Sounds like another opportunity, one not provided by ICE.
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Near Zero. EV's are charged by Carbon Fuels.
Not ours. We have solar panels and a Tesla Powerwall. And the Coachella Valley is 100% renewable energy.
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TRUTH makes the Moderators Butts Hurt
About 79% of the nation's energy comes from fossil fuels, 8.4% from nuclear, and 12.5% from renewable sources.
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Well what data is the app going to send?
Your location? If you're at a tesla charging station then they already know your location.
Your payment details? Same as above, if you're going to use a tesla charging station you're going to have to pay for it somehow.
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