New $10B High-Speed Rail Line to Las Vegas Planned in California (sfgate.com) 190
"For years, California has championed high-speed rail as its future, even as its marquee project faces headwinds," writes SFGate.
"While the high-speed rail connecting Los Angeles and San Francisco slowly comes to fruition, a separate rail plan in Southern California has finalized an important labor deal, and construction is set to begin this year... to connect Las Vegas to Los Angeles with a new 218-mile rail system. On Feb. 23, Brightline announced it had reached an agreement to work with a coalition of major labor unions. The High-Speed Rail Labor Coalition includes 13 rail unions representing more than 160,000 freight, regional, commuter and passenger railroad workers.... The $10 billion investment is set to create 35,000 jobs during construction, with more than $10 billion in economic impact....
Brightline West trains can reach speeds of up to 200 mph. The company said its trains will cut down the more than 40 million one-way trips to Las Vegas each year by car or bus. It said it aims to attract 12 million of those trips annually and reduce CO2 emissions by removing 3 million vehicles and 400,000 tons of CO2 from the road. Moreover, the train is expected to relieve traffic on Interstate 15....
Brightline Senior Vice President of Corporate Affairs Ben Porritt told SFGATE that Brightline West plans to break ground later in 2023. "Our construction timeline is approximately 3.5-4 years, which would have us opening by the end of 2027," he said.
"Riders can expect a travel time of just over two hours as the train reaches its 180 mph top speed," reports Jalopnik. "The line is expected to be an elevated line as well running above the desert floor."
Brightline trains in Florida are already reaching speeds of 130 miles per hour.
"While the high-speed rail connecting Los Angeles and San Francisco slowly comes to fruition, a separate rail plan in Southern California has finalized an important labor deal, and construction is set to begin this year... to connect Las Vegas to Los Angeles with a new 218-mile rail system. On Feb. 23, Brightline announced it had reached an agreement to work with a coalition of major labor unions. The High-Speed Rail Labor Coalition includes 13 rail unions representing more than 160,000 freight, regional, commuter and passenger railroad workers.... The $10 billion investment is set to create 35,000 jobs during construction, with more than $10 billion in economic impact....
Brightline West trains can reach speeds of up to 200 mph. The company said its trains will cut down the more than 40 million one-way trips to Las Vegas each year by car or bus. It said it aims to attract 12 million of those trips annually and reduce CO2 emissions by removing 3 million vehicles and 400,000 tons of CO2 from the road. Moreover, the train is expected to relieve traffic on Interstate 15....
Brightline Senior Vice President of Corporate Affairs Ben Porritt told SFGATE that Brightline West plans to break ground later in 2023. "Our construction timeline is approximately 3.5-4 years, which would have us opening by the end of 2027," he said.
"Riders can expect a travel time of just over two hours as the train reaches its 180 mph top speed," reports Jalopnik. "The line is expected to be an elevated line as well running above the desert floor."
Brightline trains in Florida are already reaching speeds of 130 miles per hour.
First question... (Score:5, Insightful)
...will they actually build this one? There isn't a good precedent of these kinds of high-speed rail projects ever getting to any point close to done, or if they actually DO complete it - its got so many stops, its not high speed anymore.
Re:First question... (Score:4, Informative)
It's a good route, with cheap land most of the way, and a lot of people traveling between the two end points.
its got so many stops, its not high speed anymore.
Yeah, for all those exciting tourist destinations between LA and LV. /s
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
...will they actually build this one? There isn't a good precedent of these kinds of high-speed rail projects ever getting to any point close to done, or if they actually DO complete it - its got so many stops, its not high speed anymore.
Elon will find a way to delay or kill it. He's not a fan of public transit & the real purpose of his bonkers Hyperloop concept was intended to sabotage high speed rail
Re: (Score:2)
Elon will find a way to delay or kill it. He's not a fan of public transit & the real purpose of his bonkers Hyperloop concept was intended to sabotage high speed rail
And here ya go [9cache.com]. That about sums it up.
Re: (Score:2)
Elon will find a way to delay or kill it. He's not a fan of public transit & the real purpose of his bonkers Hyperloop concept was intended to sabotage high speed rail
I think he has bigger problems these days than trying to repackage hundred year old ideas that still aren't feasible.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
What they should do, and probably won't, is have a quad-track layout. Two tracks for fast services between LV and LA, and two tracks for slow trains, where "slow" means about 85-100mph, that call at all the towns and villages along the way.
Re: (Score:2)
The same company actually already built a line in Florida. The problem with the SF-LA line is that it is built by the public sector with to many special interest groups to buy off.
Let the private sector build infrastructure and the price drops 90%.
Re: (Score:2)
This one has a good chance of actually happening because MGM and Ceasers stand to make a lot of money from these riders. It's in their best financial interests to lobby for the approval of these permits.
Re: (Score:2)
...will they actually build this one?
Of course not. If they actually built it, then they couldn't fleece the taxpayers for more money next time, as a gift to the Democrats' union backers.
If you solve a problem, there's no longer any need for someone to lead the charge against it - and get rich(er) doing so.
This is how California politics works.
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
California is a wonderful place. The only problem with California is Californians.
Get rid of them and it would be awesome there.
Re: (Score:2)
Group think at its worst. And 2.3% birds in the splat zone. All filmed by the same people who have a financial interest in the windmills. Poor silly sheep repeating corporate doublespeak and doubling down on it. How many of those sheep were you?
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
The plan is for an elevated line, so if they use wind turbines as piers, it will get an environmental free pass.
Re: (Score:2)
The plan is for an elevated line
An elevated line through an empty desert makes no sense at all.
Perhaps the urban ends are elevated, and the journalist extrapolated inappropriately.
Re: (Score:2)
It will mean millions of tonnes of additional concrete and greater seismic risk.
Each tonne of concrete means a tonne of CO2.
Re: First question... (Score:2)
"So what's the chance that the EIP (Enviromental Impact Report) will discover some rare, exotic, almost extinct unknown creature in the ROW of this train? That's when the lawsuits will fly and-or the State legislators will get involved"
Oh darn, the endangered brown spotted titmouse makes it's home right in the middle of our line. Pack up and go home, party's over.
Re: (Score:2)
we are talking California...the State where they can't keep their legislative (or Court) hands off of anything.
Name a state that doesn't legislate everything
Re: (Score:2)
Oh yes. The grifters will come out of the woodwork. If this colossus ever actually gets finished, it will cost at least $100 billion and take 10 years minimum. But a lot of connected insiders will get very rich.
Re:Not very high (Score:5, Informative)
Looks like the closet place is Rancho Cucamonga (sp?), on the north side of LA.
A YT video by "Not Just Bikes" says America always gets this wrong when building transit. Basically need a system that takes people where they are and send them to where they go. Many LA people are not in Rancho Cucamonga so many that figured driving to RC, might as well drive to LV.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
Re: (Score:3)
According to google maps, it takes an hour and twenty minutes via Metrolink (commuter rail) to get from downtown LA (Union Station) to Rancho Cucamonga. Add that it takes anywhere from half an hour to an hour to get to Union Station from most elsewhere in the city/county, that means you're already 2 hours into your trip before you even step onto this future high speed rail. Then it's going to stop multiple times in the high desert: "Before reaching the Las Vegas Strip, the train will stop in Rancho Cucam
Re: (Score:2)
Driving from say, LAX will take you 4.5 hours.
And when you are in LV, you will have a car to get around.
Re: (Score:2)
It's the bit tourists are interested in pretty much just one walkable strip anyway? You also won't be driving around too much if you are drinking.
Re:Not very high (Score:4, Informative)
Apple Valley, Hesperia, and Victorville are interconnected. That is likely just one stop, makes no sense to put 3 stops within 5 minute drive of each other.
Re:Not very high (Score:4, Insightful)
Driving from say, LAX will take you 4.5 hours.
If you stay the average weekend in Vegas, if you don't leave before noon to come back, you can easily be sitting in traffic for 6-8 hours. If there was something big in Vegas that weekend, or there's a major accident, it can be even longer than that.
And the drive absolutely sucks. The high points of the trip are a giant thermometer next to a beef jerky store, and the original Del Taco that puts extra meat and cheese in their tacos, or a McDonald's that's made out of old train cars.
Even if it takes the same amount of time as driving, the train would be preferable for the simple reason that I can get up and walk around, or use the restroom, or sleep the weekend off, or read a book.
Re: (Score:3)
I'm not an expert on that area, but Google maps says that RC to LV is a 4 hour drive. I assume parking is expensive, and many people will want to drink so driving back isn't ideal.
Google says there are flights too. High speed rail should cut the journey to under 1.5 hours, which is faster than flying once you factor in getting to the airport, through security etc. Luggage allowance on the train is likely to be better too.
The fact that so many people take the bus already suggests that there is demand, and ma
Re:Not very high (Score:4, Interesting)
The biggest advantage to taking the train or flying is avoiding the massive traffic coming back from Vegas at the end of the weekend.
No joke - I once got stuck in a 4 hr Sunday evening traffic jam just getting to the NV/CA border.
The other issue is that even if you try to avoid traffic by leaving during off-hours, you can still run into road maintenance.
Parking cost used to not be an issue (free parking used to be standard), but then the big hotel casinos decided to extract as much wealth as possible without having to rely on the casino part of the operation, which eventually translated to parking fees for the major hotel chains on the strip. They still have free parking for NV residents in order to feed the casino side of things.
Your mileage may vary.
Re: (Score:2)
Everybody knows Pomona is where it's at.
$10 billion (Score:5, Insightful)
That is too fucking expensive. I want it, but man it is too fucking expensive. Like how a woman wants a God damn Gucci bag or something. We could use that $10 bil somewhere else where it is more desperately needed. Like say building 200,000 distributed minimalist housing units to house the entire California homeless population or something like that.
Re:$10 billion (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:$10 billion (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
But just think about how adding one more lane will solve traffic forever!
Also lol at the 50 million trips the OP quoted like it's some sort of insane number.. One google search will tell you LV gets like 40 million visitors a year.
Re:$10 billion (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
"break even in just over 4 years"
I guess its presumed there will be no operating costs once its built?
Re: (Score:2)
The train service between London and Paris gets those sorts of numbers.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
In the future (5 to 10 years from now) all cars will likely be EV and have automated highway driving capability .. that would enable much faster and smoother flowing traffic.
Re:$10 billion (Score:4, Informative)
A) No all cars won't be self-driving in 5-10 years
B) It won't solve traffic
More supply causes more demand (Score:2)
This is a well established truth in traffic management. So no - I don't think widening those freeways would be a good investment
https://www.wired.com/2014/06/... [wired.com]
Re: (Score:2)
How socialist! ;) (Score:2)
Road expenditure by the state is unquestionably a socialist project. One of the better solutions would be to spread toll roads - as Toronto has done with vehicle tracking - paid for by the private sector. It's remarkable how far libertarians run screaming at such a suggestion.
Ah - the American perspective (Score:2)
In the UK we have a small island with large bits of it already covered by cities. In the context of those cities, there is not a lot of growth of demand occurring unless it's enabled by more supply. The American propensity to sprawl combined with a failure to provide public transport by contrast means that there is a tendency to growth, which may make your position correct for the USA.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:$10 billion (Score:4, Insightful)
Based on their projections of saving 40 million round trips each year, it won't take long to pay it back. Even if they only charge $100 round trip, it should have an ROI of less than three years, even with some cost overruns and optimistic projections.
Sounds like a good investment to save 400,000 tons of CO2 each year. (yeah, minus electrical generation, construction, materials, etc that the detractors always bring up.)
Re: (Score:2)
A 42 gallon barrel of oil emits 250 kg of CO2 when oxized as gasoline, for math ease lets say its 400kg. So instead of building the rail, they could buy 1 million barrels of oil for $100 million a year annually for a century and hide it in Yucca mountain or something.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
In the summary they say they're hoping to capture 12M one-way trips per year. Which would reach 50million round trips in ~10 years so not so crazy.
But the $200 round trip would likely barely cover the operating costs once the thing is built, if that. So prices would have to be higher and the payback would happen well... probably never. Especially since, as others have mentioned, the track record of these infrastructure projects suggests the total costs will multiply (2x, 10x , ??x ) over whatever's app
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
If they are relying just on tickets to make money then they are doing it wrong. They are supposed to build big shopping malls around the station, which they can get rent from, or even direct sales. They should be selling food to consume on the train.
A standard Japanese high speed train set of 6 cars carries 1,300 people. That's $260,000 at your suggested $200 ticket price. I doubt it will cost a quarter of a million dollars for every run of about 250 miles.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:$10 billion (Score:5, Insightful)
The whole thing is absurd and peak-Murican anyway. Nobody expects roads to make a profit, and even the idea of roads making a profit seems laughable. Everyone knows that roads COST money, up front and in perpetuity, but they still ask for more publicly-funded roads and free parking to drive their F-150s on for free. But you try to build a train and they all turn into anarcho-capitalists.
Re: (Score:2)
Over the lifetime of the railway line, that seems very doable.
Re: (Score:2)
I think that you're underestimating the allure of a gambling mecca like Las Vegas. I'll bet that they would get those 50 million tourist visits by rail within 5 years. It would make an LA/Vegas combo vacation doable for millions of more tourists, and bring in a ton of extra weekend traffic from gamblers.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: $10 billion (Score:2, Informative)
It's $45M per mile. That's less than 1/2 the cost of urban light rail, and less than 1/4 the cost of the high speed rail being built in the Central Valley. If they can do it anywhere close to that price it will be amazingly cheap and cost competitive with flights.
Re: (Score:3)
Urban rail have to go through urban areas which is very expensive. Rural rail should be an order of magnitude cheaper.
Re: (Score:3)
It's high-speed rail, it's not going to be an order of magnitude cheaper. Even Chinese costs are at best like half of this.
Re: (Score:2)
It's $45M per mile.
Who comes up with these numbers? That sounds like the kind of thing someone pulled out out of their arse and everyone else just went with it.
Re:$10 billion (Score:5, Insightful)
Like say building 200,000 distributed minimalist housing units to house the entire California homeless population or something like that.
Ok let's build homeless housiing!
Nooo you can't just build homeless housing, what about my property values? And why don't we solve world hunger first instead?
Just build the damn railroad.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:$10 billion (Score:4, Informative)
Brightline is a privately owned company. I think they actually intend for this to be a profitable venture- and hence a profitable investment- based on their experience in Florida. So 'We' who might use that money elsewhere is whoever they find as investors or lenders in this project, not any government.
One would have to do some research to be sure whether or not public funding is involved, but I haven't seen any in the linked article.
Re: (Score:2)
It's only one month of a proxy war with Russia in Ukraine.
Re: $10 billion (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
"once they finish defunding the police"
What cities have actually had police defunded in any significant way? And where did that "funding" go?
Well if history is a guide. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Well if history is a guide. (Score:5, Insightful)
This is private investment, with a track record in building railways. Not politicians with misguided priorities and special interest groups to buy off.
If it's in California... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Have a look at BrightLine’s other railway that they are building in Florida. When projects like this are not run by politicians and special interest groups they turn out to be a lot cheaper to build.
It's about freaking time (Score:3)
Re: It's about freaking time (Score:2)
You will have your own jetpack so you won't need to worry about traffic.
(As realistic as this mess is)
They'll spend 5bil off that money (Score:3)
Re: They'll spend 5bil off that money (Score:2)
I'll need a Rolls Royce and a Ferrari...for my enviromental reports
Stopping at all stations. As long as that's one st (Score:2)
Will it be a good option? (Score:2, Insightful)
High speed rail only makes sense if it directly connects to downtown, and there are easy and quick options connecting to/from the train at either end.
Besides... 130mph (~200kph)... you call that high speed?! Lets talk again when those trains hit 300kph (~186mph) on average.
Also, will the trains be treated like airplanes on wheels regarding the passengers (meaning, the traveler is better off taking an airplane) or will it be treated like an actual train (which will allow the traveler to shave hours off their
Almost fast enough (Score:2)
Brightline trains in Florida are already reaching speeds of 130 miles per hour.
To escape Florida any faster you need to be an Astronaut ... :-)
Tragic lack of ambition or will. (Score:4, Insightful)
It would be one thing if there was any competing priority, but California doesn't even really build highways or airports anymore. And the same goes for the nation as a whole. Lane expansions and short little interstate spurs are treated as some kind of massive achievement if they're completed within 30 years of planning. In another 30 years, we'll be congratulating ourselves on our ability to operate a cement mixer for a few weeks without it breaking down.
Cost per Mile (Score:2)
This $10 Billion project would be approximately $45 Million per Mile. This seems very expensive.
The current standard railroad is $2 Million per Mile.
World's longest shanty town (Score:2)
So how far will this rediculous pie in the sky project get before it's stalled in perpetuality and the right of way is lined with homeless tents and RVs?
"lA tO lAs vEgAs iN tWo hOuRz".. was there ever a real demand for this?
Build Rail Expensive Service to Gambling Casinos? (Score:3)
Not an actual project, just a tactic (Score:2)
The announcement is that they made deals to use union labor... that's really just it. There's no funding here, no actual schedule, nothing.
So, why this press release?
This is all about manipulation. A company wants to build this thing and make a profit from it, and it wants to get the government to squeeze the cash out of the taxpayers rather than investing its own funds, so it cuts a bunch of deals with labor unions for two reasons:
1. The unions are the political base of the party in political power in Cali
Public vs Private rail investment (Score:2)
BrightLine has successfully built a rail system in Florida that hopes to expand across the state using private money.
Its proposal for an LA to LV line will cost around 5% of the projected cost of the LA to SF line that is likely going to completed years after the new BrightLine to LV.
The real question we should be asking is why is the state so hopeless at building railway lines and should the SF line be handed over to BrightLine to complete?
Another steam train - Vapour hardware (Score:2)
Just Wrong on All Levels (Score:2)
First of all, you'd think we'd learn about climbing into confined spaces and sharing each other's diseases.
Then it will be expensive and slow. $200 for a ticket? Plus if I'm 20 miles toward 'Vegas from the station, I get to drive maybe 40 minutes to the station thru city traffic 'cuz it's downtown, spend some amount of time finding parking and paying hideous fees because it's downtown, get to the station maybe an hour early to give them time to handle my checked bag so it for-sure gets on the train (took
Re: (Score:2)
Additional Details (Score:2)
First, Victorville/Hesperia/Apple Valley are all next to eachother, and just the other side of the mountain from Rancho Cucamonga.
Second, Racho Cucamonga is on the Metrolink from Downtown LA to San Bernadino.
economic viability (Score:2)
For years they've been talking about having a high-speed train between Vegas and LA, at $10B and 250 miles which gets you closer to downtown LA than Cucamonga, which is $40m/mile. They are smoking crack at that price. If they're serious, build a new welded rail transit corridor over Cajon. Most of the land between Hesperia and Vegas is Bureau of Land Management so it shouldn't be too difficult to build along that and run a 150mph train. That cuts the travel time down significantly and you'd only need a few
Re: (Score:2)
Desert Wind, Not Eagle. One was a train the other is a big, 44 or 50 cal handgun.
Priorities? (Score:2, Interesting)
California is running out of water and electricity. The streets of the larger California cities are home to the 'homeless', who defecate on them with impunity, steal from and harass people going to and from work (the few who still go 'in'), housing is offensively expensive, and they think getting their inhabitants to and from Las Vegas is a priority?
How about recovering and treating wastewater from the cities, at least to use for irrigation? How about dealing with the root causes of homelessness? How about
Cass (Score:2)
I assume the casinos are paying for this?
Makes more sense than LA to SF (Score:2)
High speed? (Score:2)
Change I15 too (Score:2)
Once the train is running, I15 should become a toll road for passenger cars going to/from LA/LV and a very expensive one at that.
The income from the tolls should offset train ticket prices.
Re: (Score:2)
'Headwinds' is a euphemism for graft & corrupt (Score:2)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
How about fantasy land?
Re: Would've been easier... (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
They do have shows, and other things
Shows that go by the names of "school boards" and "city councils".
Re: Would've been easier... (Score:2)
"school boards" "city council"
We had a couple recent hot mic moments involving the aforementoned which led to plenty of drama and suspense, and people getting their own asses handed to them on a platter.
Re: (Score:2)
I put that $256 to an packman game then it crashed.
Re: (Score:3)
We can't finish building the first one, so might as well start building another one, right? Even the French (the French!) called California's politics completely dysfunctional [businessinsider.com] and went off to build a high-speed rail line in Morocco.
So, if we go by previous history, this new $10billion project will balloon to ~$50billion, and the 2026/2027 date will move to 2036 or later. Palms gotta get greased, you know?
When the French call your politics "dysfunctional"...you better believe them. Only Italian politics are worse than French politics placing California in 3rd place.
France does get things done (Score:2)
It's record on building high speed lines is impressive. (wow, it hurts to say that as a Brit)
Vaporware (Score:2)
This has been trotted out over and over again over the past few decades, and nothing has ever come out of it.
But someone somewhere always wants to stir up the moonshot feelz to make themselves look good.