VW Will Support Software Products For Up To 15 Years (arstechnica.com) 23
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Ars Technica, written by Jonathan M. Gitlin: A perennial question that has accompanied the spread of Android Automotive has been the question of support. A car has a much longer expected service life than a smartphone, especially an Android smartphone, and with infotainment systems so integral to a car's operations now, how long can we reasonably expect those infotainment systems to be supported? I got the chance to put this question to Dirk Hilgenberg, CEO of CARIAD, Volkswagen Group's software division: Given the much longer service life of a car compared to a smartphone, how does VW plan to keep those cars patched and safe 10 or 15 years from now?
"We actually have a contract with the brands, which took a while to negotiate, but lifetime support was utterly important," Hilgenberg told me. The follow-up was obvious: How long is "lifetime"? "Fifteen years after service, and an extra option for brands who would like to have it even longer; you know, we have to guarantee updatability on all legal aspects," he said. "So that's why we are, as you can imagine, very cautious with branches of releases because every branch we need to maintain over this long time. So when you have end of operation and EOP [end of production] and it's 15 years longer, we still have to maintain that; plus, some brands actually said 'because my vehicle is a unicorn, it's something that people want even more, they only occasionally drive it but they want to be safe,'" Hilgenberg told me.
(The unicorn reference should make sense in the context of VW Group owning Bugatti, Lamborghini, and Porsche, whose cars are often collected and can be on the road for many decades.) In those cases, CARIAD would provide continued support, Hilgenberg said. "Especially as cybersecurity, all the legal things are concerned, you see that already. Now we do upgrades and releases, whether it's in China, whether it's in the US, whether it's in Europe, we take very cautious steps. Security and safety has, in the Volkswagen group, you know, the utmost importance, and we see it actually as an opportunity to differentiate," he said. In an update to the article, Ars said CARIAD got in touch with them to add some clarifications. "As part of its development services to Volkswagen's automotive brands, CARIAD provides operational services, updates, upgrades and new releases as well as bug fixes and patches relating to its hardware- and software-products. We usually support our hard- and software releases for extended periods of time. In some cases this can be up to 15 years after the end of production ('EOP') for hardware and 10 years after EOP for software releases. Moreover, there are legally mandatory periods we comply with, e.g. cybersecurity as well as safety updates and patches are provided for as long as a function is available. In addition, there may be individual agreements with brands for longer support periods to specifically satisfy their customers' needs," wrote a CARIAD spokesperson.
Ars notes: "there's no guarantee that OEMs can make the business model work for this long-term support."
"We actually have a contract with the brands, which took a while to negotiate, but lifetime support was utterly important," Hilgenberg told me. The follow-up was obvious: How long is "lifetime"? "Fifteen years after service, and an extra option for brands who would like to have it even longer; you know, we have to guarantee updatability on all legal aspects," he said. "So that's why we are, as you can imagine, very cautious with branches of releases because every branch we need to maintain over this long time. So when you have end of operation and EOP [end of production] and it's 15 years longer, we still have to maintain that; plus, some brands actually said 'because my vehicle is a unicorn, it's something that people want even more, they only occasionally drive it but they want to be safe,'" Hilgenberg told me.
(The unicorn reference should make sense in the context of VW Group owning Bugatti, Lamborghini, and Porsche, whose cars are often collected and can be on the road for many decades.) In those cases, CARIAD would provide continued support, Hilgenberg said. "Especially as cybersecurity, all the legal things are concerned, you see that already. Now we do upgrades and releases, whether it's in China, whether it's in the US, whether it's in Europe, we take very cautious steps. Security and safety has, in the Volkswagen group, you know, the utmost importance, and we see it actually as an opportunity to differentiate," he said. In an update to the article, Ars said CARIAD got in touch with them to add some clarifications. "As part of its development services to Volkswagen's automotive brands, CARIAD provides operational services, updates, upgrades and new releases as well as bug fixes and patches relating to its hardware- and software-products. We usually support our hard- and software releases for extended periods of time. In some cases this can be up to 15 years after the end of production ('EOP') for hardware and 10 years after EOP for software releases. Moreover, there are legally mandatory periods we comply with, e.g. cybersecurity as well as safety updates and patches are provided for as long as a function is available. In addition, there may be individual agreements with brands for longer support periods to specifically satisfy their customers' needs," wrote a CARIAD spokesperson.
Ars notes: "there's no guarantee that OEMs can make the business model work for this long-term support."
Well VW's Don't Last That Long Anyway (Score:4, Funny)
This should be fine.
Their software is a disaster anyway. (Score:2)
Yeah, and their software is a plain disaster anyway.
I got the first promised SW update on my Skoda Enyaq after a whopping 2 years, and it was really really underwhelming, when they promised rich updates.
They call this "support" ??
Re: (Score:2)
Exactly my thought. Their reliability per consumer reports is always among the worst.
needs to be free & no forced dealer vists + no (Score:2)
needs to be free and no forced dealer vists + no BS like you when to jiffy lube so now we can't update your car anymore.
Yeah, we'll see about that. (Score:4, Insightful)
Yeah, I believe everything VW says... they wouldn't lie to us in order to generate more sales would they?
Oh wait... [wikipedia.org]
Re: (Score:2)
This right there. You abandon your support duties? You lose your property.
- up to ? - (Score:2)
All that means is that support WILL NOT EXCEED 15 years. It could last 9 months and still fit that description.
The new car owner should seek more specific language that guarantees 15 years of software support and nothing less.
This can also be an opportunity for software developers who can find it in their heart to support a few wealthy owners of Bugatti, Lamborghini, and Porsche cars.
Re: (Score:2)
This can also be an opportunity for software developers who can find it in their heart to support a few wealthy owners of Bugatti, Lamborghini, and Porsche cars.
Third party software (and even visibility into the factory software) is slowly but surely being locked out of cars. While cars are not really part of the Right to Repair debates going on so much yet, EVs and "self driving" are only going to make it more so going forward.
Re: - up to ? - (Score:2)
No, that's not what it means. At least in the United States, the law requires automobile manufacturers to support a model for 7 years after it has been discontinued. So they must do this for at least 7 years.
For all those people who whine about GM killing the EV-1 and refusing to sell those least vehicles to people who are begging them. This is one reason why. The law would have required them to provide support for at least 7 years if they sold those cars.
Re: (Score:2)
See UNECE Regulation 155 and 156. To get type approval vehicle manufacturers must prove that they have a Software Update Management System in place and they must prove that their Cyber Security Management System also applies to the post-production phase. The post-production phase is defined in 155 to end "when there are no longer any operational vehicles of a specific vehicle type".
Here is an overview of the regulations: https://consulting.vector.com/... [vector.com]
Diesel Emissions decrease with 15 yr SW support! (Score:2)
There goes the used car market (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Many places fifteen-year-old cars are still running. If the software won't work and the batteries are all dead, what are people supposed to drive in the future. Don't give me any talk about public transportation, there mostly is none in the US.
Exactly. I like to buy cars when they're between 15 and 20 years old and drive them until they're near 30. Even here in populous western europe, public transport is hardly usable in rural regions, meaning in the largest parts of the countries. In ten years, people with even less money than I have available will, if at all, only be able to get crappy cars that just might be able to get them to work and back.
Japanese cars last +20 years (Score:2)
So where is the value in buying an expensive German car?
And in the end... (Score:1)
Those things you paid all that money for you will be obsoleted by force, leaving you with a couple thousand pounds of e-waste. Instead of a functional vehicle.
Meanwhile in China... (Score:2)
... they simply build DIN-slots into their cars so you can put in any stereo you want.
Cars are a dying concept anyhow, plus the electric car is likely to cause some disruption, as it can be made a _lot_ smaller and cheaper. Manufacturers like Minghong already sell complete electric cars for roughly the price of a combustion engine alone. Of course those cars are not good for driving 300 kp/h on the Autobahn or 80 kp/h through the inner city.... but only a small part of the people want that.
What am I missing here? (Score:2)
Thereâ(TM)s a pretty straightforward approach to this: Only implement the basic functionality like AC, blinkers, etc., implement it as bare-bones, secure and resilient as possible. Then rely on drivers bringing their personal devices (mobile phones and whatever will come after them) to interface with the car to provide navigation, entertainment and so on. Assistance systems (from lane keeping to autonomous driving) implemented as isolated, autonomous units not exposed to the network as to not be remote
post-production software maintenance (Score:2)
I imagine that VW will throw the software "over the wall" to a software maintenance company or department when they stop manufacturing the car.
If I were the software maintainer, here is what I would do:
Demand the sources for the product, in maintainable form (not obfuscated); no binary blobs!
Demand the procedure for compiling the product from its sources and downloading it into a car.
Test the above using a production car purchased anonymously.
Ask for whatever tests and documentation are available.
Sign the contract, with the price based on the evaluation of the software.
Assign a software engineer or two to the project. They will study the product, verify that the tests pass, make some simple changes to verify that they know what they are doing, distribute those changes to all vehicles in the field, and improve the documentation and tests if necessary.
For the life of the contract, whenever problems are reported, fix the software and re-distribute it.
Of course, the lowest bidder for the software contract will start by taking the money, and worry about fixing the problems when they are reported.
Bigger Picture (Score:1)
Having lots of software in the car to run ECU and so on is fine. But...
Not connected: No attack surface, no software updates needed, car can run "forever".
Connected: Vulnerable, requires contant updating to patch vulnerabilities.
It's a car fer chrissakes. It goes it stops it turns, it keeps you warm, dry, or cool. It doesn't need social media conectivity or telemetry.
Everything seems to be getting sucked into the vortex of software updating, and ultimately obsolesce