NYC Will Charge Drivers Going Downtown (cnn.com) 239
An anonymous reader quotes a report from CNN: President Joe Biden's administration is set to allow New York City to move forward with a landmark program that will toll vehicles entering Lower Manhattan, after a public review period ends Monday. The toll is formally known as the Central Business District Tolling Program -- but it's commonly called "congestion pricing." In practice it works like any other toll, but because it specifically charges people to drive in the traffic-choked area below 60th street in Manhattan, it would be the first program of its kind in the United States. Proposals range from charging vehicles $9 to $23 during peak hours, and it's set to go into effect next spring.
The plan had been delayed for years, but it cleared a milestone last month when the Federal Highway Administration signed off on the release of an environmental assessment. The public has until Monday to review the report, and the federal government is widely expected to approve it shortly after. From there, the New York Metropolitan Transportation Authority (MTA) can finalize toll rates, as well as discounts and exemptions for certain drivers.
While no other US city has yet implemented congestion pricing, Stockholm, London and Singapore have had it for years. These cities have reported benefits like decreased carbon dioxide pollution, higher average speeds, and congestion reduction. [...] The stakes of New York City's program are high, and leaders in other cities are watching the results closely. If successful, congestion pricing could be a model for other US cities, which are trying to recover from the pandemic and face similar challenges of climate change and aging public infrastructure.
The plan had been delayed for years, but it cleared a milestone last month when the Federal Highway Administration signed off on the release of an environmental assessment. The public has until Monday to review the report, and the federal government is widely expected to approve it shortly after. From there, the New York Metropolitan Transportation Authority (MTA) can finalize toll rates, as well as discounts and exemptions for certain drivers.
While no other US city has yet implemented congestion pricing, Stockholm, London and Singapore have had it for years. These cities have reported benefits like decreased carbon dioxide pollution, higher average speeds, and congestion reduction. [...] The stakes of New York City's program are high, and leaders in other cities are watching the results closely. If successful, congestion pricing could be a model for other US cities, which are trying to recover from the pandemic and face similar challenges of climate change and aging public infrastructure.
One way to reduce congestion (Score:5, Insightful)
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Another way is to make it cheaper to park at an outlying area and take public transportation
This. Why would I pay $35 / day to park in the city centre when I could pay $5 to park at a Park and Ride and be in the city centre 10minutes later with the train fare included? I'd spend longer than 10minutes stuck in traffic too. These are actual numbers by the way, at the P+R I use it's $5, but to get that you need to swipe your public transit card after your trip into the city, or you're back to paying the full $20 parking fare
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They need to keep raising the price of the toll until they reach the desired capacity. Where i live they did something similar for parking setting the Fee high enough that the average capacity at peak times was >80 95%. What this means is that you can always find a spot if you really want one, but it pushes a lot of people onto trains and buses.
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>80% and 95%
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London used to be horrible for traffic. Nowadays it's just unpleasant.
Years ago, I used to work in a particular office on a particular junction - it's a busy spot at pretty much all times, and during the afternoons cars would be backed up the whole street as far as you could see from our office. Then in came the "Congestion Charge" - everyone complained tooth and nail, and claimed "people will just pay" or "businesses will close down" or whatever else.
What actually happened was our little junction cleaned u
Next spring, I forsee... (Score:5, Funny)
it specifically charges people to drive in the traffic-choked area below 60th street in Manhattan"
Next spring, I forsee a new, even worse traffic choke-point developing right around 61st Street.
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Pretty much this is to be expected.
When our city here started to charge for parking in certain districts, you could see parking spaces in the districts that got pay-to-park open up in surprising numbers, only to hear residents from those next to them lament that they can't find a parking space anymore anywhere in the whole district.
Take a wild guess what could have been the reason.
Recover from the pandemic by hiking costs (Score:2)
on precisely the people (commuters) whose absence is the nominal problem.
Yeah.
New York is probably the closest you can get to European or Asian cityscapes while still technically being in America, but Europe and Asia end somewhere inside the five boroughs, and the rest of the metro area is squarely inside the United Sprawl of America.
I am skeptical. Not to the point of being completely dismissive, but still skeptical.
Only the monied need apply (Score:5, Interesting)
Translation- Sad plebs and Uber drivers cause all of our traffic problems, therefore, only the wealthy are now allowed to drive on these taxpayer funded streets.
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If only people who don't drive didn't have to pay taxes to fund the streets. Wouldn't that be great?
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If only people who don't drive didn't have to pay taxes to fund the streets. Wouldn't that be great?
If only firefighters, ambulances and cops did not rely on streets to get to them when they call.
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How expensive is parking in NYC? In London it tends to be more expensive than the congestion charge anyway, and many car parks dropped by their prices by the cost of the congestion charge anyway. In other words it was already just rich people and commercial vehicles driving into central London.
The London scheme has an exception for zero/very low emission vehicles, so at least you have the option of buying an EV to avoid it. Used EVs are very affordable now.
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Isn't this already the case, to a lesser extent?
Look at the infrastructure for those who can't afford a car. Across the US, it almost always is inferior to driving. If you are poor, your access to transportation (even on foot) is not a priority.
We have regulations on the book to prioritize those who can afford to drive - such as how many park
Learn your place, peasants! (Score:5, Insightful)
It goes without saying, the left won't complain about this massive social injustice.
Re:Learn your place, peasants! (Score:5, Insightful)
"Cars for the rich (for whom $9-23 a day is nothing), but public transit for you peasants."
What is next? They won't let peasants fly first class for free or price of coach? What is the world coming to?
Kidding aside, I see this as a good thing. I have seen it done in Singapore. And it works well. In congested areas, there aren't many good options. The money from the toll can be used to improve downtown areas. Don't want to pay? Take the train. Asking that everybody be allowed to drive into congested areas cost-free is not a good plan.
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The money from the toll can be used to improve the finances of developers, consultants and contractors who are most likely contribute to re-election campaigns (or provide a cushy no-show consulting job after the politician in question "retires" from politics) as well as funding pet projects of politicians in power, some of which may accidentally improve things for city residents
Fixed your comment with what is most likely to happen with the money with these tolls.
Aaron Z
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Cars for the rich (for whom $9-23 a day is nothing), but public transit for you peasants.
I'm okay with this. The rich can fund the city infrastructure while wasting time behind the wheel while I post on Slashdot or read a book on the train. I don't understand what the appeal of driving is. Heck the first thing the super rich do is get someone else to drive for them.
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Might work (Score:4, Interesting)
Congestion charges work when there are feasible alternatives to cars. That's definitely the case in Singapore, London and Stockholm. And maybe NYC. But I think there are very few other cities in North America that have the transit infrastructure in place for this to work.
Re: Might work (Score:3, Interesting)
no other US city has yet implemented congestion (Score:2)
The federal DOT might disagree
https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/conge... [dot.gov]
"Congestion Pricing: Examples Around the U.S."
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Don't really need big cities (Score:2)
Uber (Score:5, Interesting)
Can support hybrid work (Score:2)
Allow cars toll-free access on certain days of the week (say, 3 weekdays - assigned randomly, or using a set of choices on a registration website). Toll them on the other days. People can work this into hybrid work schedules - they'd WFH on the toll days and drive in toll free on other days.
To be equitable, don't toll certain 'infrastructure' vehicles (like of cleaners, maintenance or delivery people) that are required to drive in each day. Or provide vouchers to the owners, that they can claim back tolls w
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The net effect in my country was that people got a cheap second car to drive on the "forbidden" days. Since that second car was usually some old, beat up car that barely managed to get past inspection and was nowhere near modern exhaust standards, the net result was an increase in pollution.
An easy win for health in NY would be (Score:2)
Uphill Battle (Score:2)
Get ready for the lawsuits, as long as they're using tax payer money to fund those roads, they won't be able to charge tolls easily.
Implementation (Score:2)
The second link shows the proposed tolling infrastructure, which uses mast arms full of cameras that track vehicle license plates. It says those without the toll pass will be sent a bill (I assume with an additional fine) to the address registered to their vehicle, so the first question is how would this work with out-of-state cars? Second, this reminds me of the tracking infrastructure in China, with licence plate cameras on masts dotted every kilometer or so tracking the movement of every car across the
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It says those without the toll pass will be sent a bill (I assume with an additional fine)
Why add a fine? This is how they do the tolls on the golden gate now.
the first question is how would this work with out-of-state cars?
That's not a serious question, or you're not a serious person. The state requires you to be able to receive mail at the address at which your car is registered.
It's not a toll (Score:2)
It's a privilege, the rich can do what the poor cannot.
It's making the polluter pay (Score:2)
Congestion is a form of pollution - and, of course, cars generate lots of other pollution as well. So a congestion charge corrects a market failure. If you want to give the poor the money to be able to pay to pollute, then fair enough - but don't hide behind such slogans to protect rich and poor polluters from paying for the pollution they cause.
Congestion charge=money grab (Score:2)
Oh yes, the traffic did fall off in London.... for a bit, then people just sucked it up and paid, then they put a "clean air zone " on TOP of the congestion charge, for another 12 quid charge. If the congestion charge was working, then why a separate clean air charge?? It's a tax on poor people who can't afford new cars with ultra low smog systems.
Do what other cities do (Score:3)
Slap a congestion charge where you don't want people to go in their cars, and ensure there is adequate public transportation that there is no reason they even should. I'm sure a few rich assholes will abuse the system, but it will still achieve it's objectives of reducing traffic and moving people to public transportation.
Sign of total failure (Score:2)
If you build roads and people can't use them because they are too busy, you fucked up.
Maybe you just should have built the roads differently, but more likely you should have built something else.
What's worse, they did build something else, but they don't take sufficiently good care of it that people want to use it. Nobody rides the subway by choice, unless they have a fetish for anonymous body fluids.
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In contrast, Toronto doesn't have a very good metro, i.e. only 2 lines that don't give access to much of the city. I used to catch the streetcar to get to work downtown, which mixes with regular car traffic. There isn't the streetcar or metro capacity to keep up with demand so too many people drive in as well. The result is that you get half way into th
A model? (Score:2)
Let's hope Google Maps fixes their junk! (Score:2)
For some god-awful reason, Google Maps thinks the fastest way from New Jersey to Connecticut is through New York City over the George Washington Bridge.
This is usually terrible advice, as you normally get stuck in a 45-minute traffic jam driving through New York City. Plus, you get to pay $15 in tolls for the "privilege" of doing so. You're usually better off driving North a bit and taking the new Tappan Zee bridge instead.
Maybe this additional congestion pricing will be what it takes for Google to fix thei
Re:Money (Score:5, Insightful)
Car access in those areas is truly a limited good. And, when it comes to limited goods, best to let the market figure out who really, really wants it. That’s congestion pricing. It’s one of those things that both political sides absolutely hates, and it’s by FAR the best solution to the problem. The cities that have introduced congestion pricing have transformed into MUCH nice places.
Doesn't matter if you do upgrade it (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Doesn't matter if you do upgrade it (Score:5, Insightful)
The solution to that is to keep buses from getting stuck in the same traffic as cars. [youtu.be]
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City planners here went a step further. In downtown, they lowered the speed limit to about 20mph while busses (on their own lane) can go 35. Not only do they not get stuck in traffic, even if there is no traffic, the bus is faster.
Re:Doesn't matter if you do upgrade it (Score:5, Informative)
The car problem mostly isn't from NYC residents, they're mostly people coming in from New Jersey. People don't like driving into NYC, but the alternatives suck. They've been trying to improve public transit for decades, but Republicans have been fighting every effort.
There was an effort to build more train tunnels and expand the stations early in Obama's term. Once Chris Christie became governor of NJ, he cancelled the project, even tho work had already started.
Late in Obama's term, there was another effort to just build new tunnels. Trump cancelled that project.
Everyone knows we need more public transit, but it's not going to get fixed unless you make sure there are no Republicans in a position to cancel it, and it has to stay that way for the duration of the project.
Added bonus - Christie basically eliminated NJ Transit's maintenance budget, so we're *still* trying to fix all the trains that broke while he was in office.
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but Republicans have been fighting every effort.
California and New York would be utopias if it weren't for those pesky Republicans. lol
Re:Doesn't matter if you do upgrade it (Score:4, Insightful)
Everyone knows we need more public transit, but it's not going to get fixed unless you make sure there are no Republicans in a position to cancel it, and it has to stay that way for the duration of the project.
Yeah, Republicans are always fucking up major American cities.
Times Square used to be a crime-riddle shithole until Republicans got tossed from city government.
Detroit used to be a thriving metropolis, then BAM, people started voting Republican, and now look at the place.
Or take Chicago Democrats kept trying to clean that town up, but Republicans would have none of it and now it’s one of the most dangerous cities in the country.
Same with New Orleans, St. Louis, and Oakland. Things were starting to look up for these towns, then Trump grabbed them all by the pussy, colluded with Russia, stole classified documents, then started a deadly riot that killed 12,000 people and now look at these cities. I am outraged. Outraged and disgusted I tell you.
Only when we get rid of those rascally Republicans will Democrats finally get a chance to work their magic and make these cities the models of livability that they would otherwise be,
When will intelligent people wake up and realize that Republicans are the cause of every identifiable problem?
Instead, you just have a bunch of brainwashed people of lower intellect who always insist that any problem is the fault of their chosen party opponent. The Democratic Party may indeed be responsible for 60% of all public officials convicted of corruption. Sure, they may have run the Jim Crow South. Okay, maybe they did have an ex-KKK wizard in congress until 2010. Fine, maybe they did fight a war to preserve slavery. Yes, the opposed the ERA and tried to filibuster the Civil Rights Act. Indeed, they promoted eugenics for half of the 20th century. Sure, perhaps Obama was anti-gay marriage both times he ran for office. Yes, Hilary was anti-gay marriage well into her 60s. Yeah, maybe Democrats did boycott the poorest, blackest state in the union for holding the same positions as wealthy Dem leaders.
But at least they did not kill a couple of public transit projects in the NY area, and that is what is important.
Re:Doesn't matter if you do upgrade it (Score:5, Informative)
For the benefit of other readers, the rest of the points are your typical alt-right falsehoods or attempts to mislead by selectively interpreting facts. Obama did decide to support full gay marriage later than I'd like, around 2015, but he had been in favour of homosexuals having access to all the same rights and benefits provided by marriage for a decade or more before that, and he got rid of the policies persecuting homosexuals in the military pretty much the moment he had the ability to do so. So if this is critiscism it is saying that Obama wasn't doing enough for gay people a decade or more ago, meanwhile expecting everyone to forget that the Republicans are actively trying to remove the rights of gay people.
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Our capital has a quite similar problem. Capital is run by one party, the surrounding state by another one. And neither of them wants people to travel easily in and out of town. The capital government is afraid that people who can easily travel into downtown for work and leisure will move out and they lose the residential tax income, the surrounding areas are afraid that people who can work easily in the capital will do so and their local shops and production places will be lost.
So you have the odd situatio
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Build a 20 lane highway and people will fill it.
And why exactly is this bad?
The solution is public transit, but people fucking *love* cars.
Public transit is never the solution. It's always the problem. And the solution is to not let your city to become a Manhattan-like hellscape.
Look at commuting times in the Greater Houston Area and NYC if you don't believe me.
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This is bad because it's wasted real estate. It's just dead concrete, nothing where anyone could live, nothing where anyone could work, nothing where anyone could buy or sell something, nothing where anyone could have fun and enjoy life. It's dead space.
We've had that development in the 1980s here, where cities tried to make themselves more accessible for cars, tearing down whole blocks to give room to more roads. And it worked for a while, only to result in more traffic and the same traffic jams that we al
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I'm not exactly Gen-Z, but I'm not a huge fan of cars either. I now have one again since I moved to a place where you're basically shot without one, but when I lived in our capital, I got by without a car for years.
In a place where public transport is affordable and reliable, a car is more a burden than a convenience. Either you're spending an eternity stuck in traffic or, when there's no traffic because it's 3am, you search for an eternity for a parking spot because they stopped existing around 6pm. It's a
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Right exactly everyone who can afford a car wants one.
If you really cared about democracy and the general welfare you'd be advocating policy to help as many Americans have access to and the use of cars as possible!
Yet that is essentially the opposite of what everyone who votes D is doing.
So FUCK YOU!
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No, look up growing demand. We have tried using induced demand many places, unfortunately it is a case of correlation != causation. We have built highways overbuilt in the middle of nowhere, but they continue to be empty even decades later, not inducing any demand. See the whole misunderstanding comes from any built up infrastructure is going to insufficient in place with naturally growing demand, but continue to be more than sufficient in a place with no growing demand.
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That's OK, with landlords demanding more than double what a commercial property is really worth (in terms of what you can actually earn using that property) and workers preferring to work from home anyway, the city will de-populate soon enough.
My understanding is that rats and pigeons don't drive and don't have any money anyway.
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Great, tell me how you plan to widen the streets?
Re: Money (Score:2, Troll)
Vertically. Make every road two layers tall. Instantly double the number of roads. Bonus. Rich people can pay to only use the upper layers and the lower layers keep free. Instant class segregation based on Income. You don't even have to bother policing the lower section. You can let republican vigilantes beat up bad guys.
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Instant class segregation based on Income.
This plan already provides that.
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> You can let republican vigilantes beat up bad guys.
Are those the ones that carry a noose and bleach and yell out "this is MAGA country" (in the middle of Democrat country).
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For now. They got the crosses and the white hoodies stashed away for later when they're in fashion again.
Re: Money (Score:2)
But Smollett forgot the hoodie
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Our capital had a similar idea, because at the edges of the city some clever businessmen created huge parking garages right next to public transport hubs where you can leave your car for 4 bucks a day (or something like 500 for an annual ticket), so they offered a discount for these garages with the annual public transport ticket. The idea was that people from outside of town could cheaply (ok, at least affordably) drive to one of these garages and then continue on with public transport.
The net effect was t
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Well...... no. Yes, but .... no.
The idea was that people from outside town could park cheaply in those parking centers and travel about town with public transport. People in town already use mostly public transport wherever possible because it is actually faster and cheaper (an annual ticket costs 365 bucks, a buck a day, all public transport, 24/7, with the only exception being the transport to the airport which costs extra) and you can't find any parking spots inside town anyway.
The net effect was, though
Re: Money (Score:2)
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They're trying to find new concepts. The idea to have the discount only apply to people living outside the city got shot down on two fronts, first, that would never hold up in court and second, it's probably political suicide to do something that benefits mostly people who are not your constituents. The current plan is trying to price it at a level where it's only interesting for people who actually go into town, which is nontrivial to say the least because they sure as all hell don't want to forgo that swe
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> Maybe "Escape from New York" would be a reality soon
Businesses are already fleeing New York. Louis Rossman talks about the issues extensively.
Louis' FINAL impassioned rant on last day in NYC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
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> Maybe "Escape from New York" would be a reality soon
Businesses are already fleeing New York. Louis Rossman talks about the issues extensively.
Louis' FINAL impassioned rant on last day in NYC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
Businesses are in the process of leaving most of the world's big cities, because the Internet allows them to. See: San Francisco.
Those companies went to cities in the first place because they wanted to be in the hub of the world's activity. Before telecommunications, that meant physical presence. The more we move to a virtual world where your physical location doesn't matter, the more companies will abandon big cities with high rent, crime, traffic, and expensive living and operating conditions.
The bad news
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In general I agree. NYC was a special case at least in the past because of many kinds of businesses that could ONLY thrive in that specific kind of very dense environment full of many of the brightest and most talented people in their fields.
Time will tell whether those sorts of businesses will continue to require this kind of population and talent density, and/or whether other business with similar requirements will take their place.
If not, then it will have to adjust, just as we did in the "Rust Belt" wh
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Re: Money (Score:2)
Exactly. Allow cars toll-free access on certain days of the week (say, 3 days - assigned randomly, or given a set of choices on a registration website). Toll them on the other days. People can work this into hybrid work schedules - they'd WFH on the toll days and drive in toll free on other days. Don't toll certain 'infrastructure' vehicles (like cleaners or delivery people).
This reduces congestion for other who'd want to drive in every day, while also solidifying support for hybrid work
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I wish I had mod points to upmod you. Your comment might have been incendiary, but it certainly isn't just flamebait - you made a succinct point.
Infrastructure is difficult, but not impossible.
The real problem though is caused by the concentration of jobs in one metropolitan area. The median home price in NYC, NY is currently about $830K. In Buffalo, NY, it is currently about $160K. The demand is only there in NYC because that's where all the good paying jobs in the state went. It's the result of a rel
Re:Lol, brilliant idea, but... (Score:5, Insightful)
NYC is nicer the fewer cars there are. This is a net good, but you do have a point. Some people want to take their cars no matter what, and will bitch and moan if they cannot.
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Part of the problem is that people take their cars because they live in a location where there's no suitable public transportation chain to get to the job in NYC. It would be easier to change job than to move. Spouses might have a job in the other direction from their location of living.
I'm just waiting for the property market in NYC to collapse.
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Right, excellent public transit .... the place that has ONE EFFING TUNNEL in/out of the single train terminal accessible from its largest neighbor state.
One tunnel in, one track in. That's it. And now if you take the alternative, they're gonna bend you over with extra taxes for driving.
NY public transit makes the Botswanans look like transit geniuses.
Re:Lol, brilliant idea, but... (Score:5, Informative)
Everyone knows they need more tunnels. They've been trying to build more tunnels for decades. Biden funded new tunnels last year, but the previous funding got cancelled by Trump and the funding before that got cancelled by Chris Christie. You're not getting a solution unless you get Republicans out of any position with the power to block it and keep them out for the duration.
Extra fun - because Biden only got one of the two infrastructure bills through, we're only getting new tunnels. Extra station capacity will have to wait.
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Re: Lol, brilliant idea, but... (Score:2)
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The subway map is weird. It wasn't planned, it was designed by a few different companies serving different areas before the city took it over. It's a mess.
But if you're looking at an hour to get around during anything even remotely close to peak hours, it'd take you just as long to drive and find parking.
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Who drives through Manhattan during rush hour? This is New York City - the MTA runs the subway system
Heck
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You said, "Who drives through Manhattan during rush hour?"
Basically you're saying that "no one drives in NYC because the traffic is so bad". LOL
It's like when Yogi Berra quipped, "Nobody goes to that restaurant anymore because it's too crowded."
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Leave it to irrational car fanatics to assume this is a bad thing. Sadly irrational feelings about cars are very widespread.
NYC is not the first city by a very long way to implement charging cars to drive in. You can look at the examples of where it happened. Car drivers always assume that anything which discourages car use will make things awful, but we know from other examples that this sort of thing improves cities.
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No, not just care fanatics. I don't even own a car (I've never bought a car in my whole life).
Politicians should not forget who pays the bills. It's businesses and residents. Making the place unfriendly won't get you very far. https://www.reuters.com/articl... [reuters.com]
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Thanks for completely missing the point. Good job.
Also, my first passport is from the mid-1960s....how old is yours?
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For those of you who don't know, this affects the Lincoln, Holland, and Battery Tunnel users as well as all of the bridges leading into mid and lower Manhattan, which by the way people who traverse those also pay for. The demarcation of 60th Street is where the Queensboro Bridge endpoint is located. Nice touch for douchebags at city hall.
Have to keep the bridge and tunnel crowd from infesting The City
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Re:Another Reason (Score:5, Informative)
Don't look at the crime, the random acts of violence, shoplifting, and theft. Major crime is up over 22% YoY [nytimes.com] but just ignore it because murders are down.
The YoY stats for the last few years are interesting. Crime has been steadily trending down for decades. Crime dropped to nearly zero in 2020 due to everyone staying home because of COVID. We've been seeing YoY increases each year since then, but crime levels are still lower than they would have been if you followed the trend we were on before COVID.