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Reddit Fight 'Enters News Phase', as Moderators Vow to Pressure Advertisers, CNN Reports (cnn.com) 158

Reddit "appears to be laying the groundwork for ejecting forum moderators committed to continuing the protests," CNN reported Friday afternoon, "a move that could force open some communities that currently remain closed to the public.

"In response, some moderators have vowed to put pressure on Reddit's advertisers and investors." As of Friday morning, nearly 5,000 subreddits were still set to private and inaccessible to the public, reflecting a modest decrease from earlier in the week but still including groups such as r/funny, which claims more than 40 million subscribers, and r/aww and r/music, each with more than 30 million members. But Reddit has portrayed the blacked-out communities as a small slice of its wider platform. Some 100,000 forums remain open, the company said in a blog post, including 80% of its 5,000 most actively engaged subreddits...

Reddit CEO and co-founder Steve Huffman told NBC News the company will soon allow forum users to overrule moderators by voting them out of their positions, a change that may enable communities that do not wish to remain private to reopen. In addition, one company administrator said Thursday, Reddit may soon view communities that remain private as an indicator that the moderators of those communities no longer wish to moderate. That would constitute a form of inactivity for which the moderators can be removed, the company said. "If a moderator team unanimously decides to stop moderating, we will invite new, active moderators to keep these spaces open and accessible to users," the administrator said, adding that Reddit may intervene even if most moderators on a team wish to remain closed and only a single moderator wants to reopen...

Omar, a moderator of a subreddit participating in this week's blackout, told CNN Friday that many subreddits have participated in the blackouts based on member polls that indicate strong support for the protests... Content moderation on Reddit stands to worsen if the company continues with its plan, Omar said, warning that the coming changes will deter developers from creating and maintaining tools that Reddit communities rely on to detect and eliminate spam, hate speech or even child sexual abuse material. "That's both harmful for users and advertisers," Omar said, adding that supporters of the protests have been contacting advertisers to explain how the platform's coming changes may hurt brands. Already, Omar said, the blackout has made it harder for companies to target ads to interest groups; video game companies, for example, can no longer target ads to gaming-focused subreddits that have taken themselves private...

Huffman has also said that the protests have had little impact on the company financially.

NBC News adds: In an interview Thursday with NBC News, Reddit CEO Steve Huffman praised Musk's aggressive cost-cutting and layoffs at Twitter, and said he had chatted "a handful of times" with Musk on the subject of running an internet platform. Huffman said he saw Musk's handling of Twitter, which he purchased last year, as an example for Reddit to follow.
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Reddit Fight 'Enters News Phase', as Moderators Vow to Pressure Advertisers, CNN Reports

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  • Reddit has always had a semi-automated process for allowing new moderators to take over forums where the prior moderators have abandoned it. I once used it to take over a subreddit that no longer had a moderator, and it took roughly three weeks for them to confirm that prior moderators were no longer around to respond.

    The only real change here is the circumstances of why the subreddit was abandoned, and the size of the subreddits in question. Personally, I have zero interest in trying to moderate a subreddit the size of /r/aww. I can only imagine the kind of spam and trash that people try to post there.

    • by Opportunist ( 166417 ) on Saturday June 17, 2023 @11:43AM (#63610366)

      And this is pretty much the killer here.

      Large subreddits, just like large boards, usually grow organic. Not always slowly, but built on a base of trusted people, people you could trust because when they joined your crew, there wasn't really any incentive, neither for spammers nor astroturfers, to become part of your moderation team. And you usually have time to onboard them slowly, one by one, because you don't need 20+ new mods NOW. You could have them join, and you could examine them, shake them down, observe what they do and weed out the occasional bad apple.

      Now ponder for a moment how this is supposed to work for a sub that has millions of eyeballs that a lot of people want to monetize or worse and you not only need a full new mod staff but actually a new head mod, too.

      Forget the idea. Just forget it.

    • by thegarbz ( 1787294 ) on Saturday June 17, 2023 @12:15PM (#63610434)

      Personally, I have zero interest in trying to moderate a subreddit the size of /r/aww. I can only imagine the kind of spam and trash that people try to post there.

      Now if only there were a set of tools which would make your moderation life easier. Maybe if they used some kind of open API...

    • by pipegeek ( 624626 ) on Saturday June 17, 2023 @12:33PM (#63610462)

      Companies also have a process for firing employees who don't show up for work. But it's still loathsome behavior to fire striking employees and hire scabs.

      Not to mention, the people they'd be firing are working for free, doing what you point out as an unenviable job, and generally in a way the subreddit users approve of. Using a process meant to replace moderators who've failed the community to instead replace moderators who are actively fighting for those communities is something new.

      • Are you suggesting that there's a 6 month hiring process to go through to become a moderator on a subreddit, along with training and investment by the company?

        Swapping out volunteer moderators is not the same as firing employees. The latter is several orders of magnitude more complex and costly.

        • It's bizarre to me that you're suggesting that I'm looking at this from the company's perspective, as if that's all that exists. My point was that this behavior on Reddit's part is execrable.

          That said, it is also shortsighted. Because arguably yes, there is a lengthy process, if you want the communities to continue to be moderated to the same standard that they are at present. As another commenter pointed out, the mod teams have grown slowly with their subreddits, carefully vetting people over time. Red

    • by Yaztromo ( 655250 ) on Saturday June 17, 2023 @05:05PM (#63611182) Homepage Journal

      I’m one of the moderators or r/Canning — we polled our users, and an overwhelming majority (89%) responded they wanted to go private, with the bulk wanting it to be indefinitely.

      But that doesn’t mean I haven’t been actively moderating — I get roughly 5 requests for access each day, which I personally respond to.

      So I’ll be interested to see if Reddit tries to force us to be public again. Our community voted in favour of this blackout, and we haven’t abandoned moderating (even if the workload is extremely light). If they do so, it will be without the current moderation team in place — and as r/Canning strives to feature scientifically safe and validated canning techniques, they’re not going to be able to just drop-in random new mods and keep up the same high quality. Improper home canning can kill people, and proper moderation requires domain-specific knowledge and experience t keep things safe for everyone.

      Yaz

  • by nicolaiplum ( 169077 ) on Saturday June 17, 2023 @10:51AM (#63610298)

    Huffman said he saw Musk's handling of Twitter, which he purchased last year, as an example for Reddit to follow.

    So Huffman is planning to destroy 2/3 of the value of Reddit, make it less reliable, and let Nazis infest the platform again?

    I wonder what Reddit's current shareholders think of that idea?

    • by waspleg ( 316038 )

      Lol. Yea, only he doesn't have Tesla shares to dump to cover massive losses with.

    • Somehow, doing incredibly stupid things with foreseeable negative outcomes is to be lauded... If you're wealthy or powerful enough.

      It's crazy. As a species, we're a bunch of clowns.

      • With more and more of these tech billionaires, I notice that they had one lucky break. Nothing else. They aren't in any way visionaries or geniuses, they just were lucky once and ever since, they stumble from one blunder to the next.

        Why they are seen as some sort of investment geniuses is beyond me. They know jack shit and just got lucky. That's like asking a lottery jackpot winner for investment tips.

        • Please. Elon had TWO - born to wealthy evil parents, then got lucky again on an investment.

          That's the real pattern, most of the time. Born wealthy, use connections to turn 'wealthy' into 'obscenely wealthy', then they think they're gods who can do as they please and the world will bend to them.

          Unfortunately, they're mostly correct.

    • Huff, you might want to wait with this move 'til AFTER the IPO.

      Jeesh, when techies have to explain basic economics to CEOs...

      • Huff, you might want to wait with this move 'til AFTER the IPO.

        It's funny this whole chain of comments making observations but then never stopping to think why they would be, instead simply passing all of it off as "stupid CEOs"

        I think investors have realized that huge valuations of unprofitable companies like Twitter and Reddit were simply wrong in the first place. An IPO for reddit before turning it profitable would have flopped, because, as Twitter has shown, non-paying users are not the same people a

    • Well... He's on the right track so far.

    • If you just watch, you can see that Elon is giving a master class in how to make a small fortune on the internet. Step 1: Start with a large fortune.
      • by tlhIngan ( 30335 )

        If you just watch, you can see that Elon is giving a master class in how to make a small fortune on the internet. Step 1: Start with a large fortune.

        No, I'm sure he learned that from Donald Trump who also managed the same thing. Except Trump possibly has a following so at least his losses are basically funded by other people as well.

        At least with Twitter we managed to expose Elon as a clueless billionaire who really doesn't know all that much and really more or less got lucky. We also know he'd rather spend

    • I saw that article too. It forced to change my opinion of Steve Huffman as having bad judgement. He actually has *horrible* judgement. Emulating a CEO who has damaged Twitter so badly that it had to vacate it's Colorado offices because Twitter wasn't able to pay the rent.
  • I've already made the descision to not go back to reddit, even though I was fond of laughing at cryptocurrency users on /r/buttcoin. Add reddit.com and old.reddit.com to your firewall/hosts file, and use the ublacklist extension to block it from Google. Reddit has decided to go against the principles that it's co-founders stood for. Aaron Swartz is spinning in his grave.
    • You know Aaron was a crypto supporter...
      • He also died 10 years ago in 2013 when crypto was barely in its infancy. It's a bit presumptuous to say he would support the joke it has become today.

    • I have no care in this conflict but it does look to me like the mods taking everything private is what is going against the principles of an open reddit. Charging for an API does not block out use of reddit but mods taking their ball and going home is blocking users from use of reddit.

      But wait, the mods don't even have a ball - it is not their forum - all they have is the hot air.

      Ok maybe I care a small bit, but it is only for continued use of the site as a passer-by.
      • I have no care in this conflict but it does look to me like the mods taking everything private is what is going against the principles of an open reddit. Charging for an API does not block out use of reddit but mods taking their ball and going home is blocking users from use of reddit.

        Well that's the point, it's basically a strike.

        The mods are, presumably, doing this with the support of the communities.

      • by sfcat ( 872532 )

        Charging for an API does not block out use of reddit

        It does if it costs 110% of the highest earnings per request of the 3rd party devs. BTW, funny story...before the US revolution the British raised taxes. Now those taxes were less than they charged in England. However, they accidently were enough to make most businesses in the colonies unprofitable overnight (due to the cost of shipping goods across the Atlantic in a wooden boat). Fast forward to today where Brits make YouTube videos saying that the US revolution didn't make sense because the colonies p

        • it is still repeated in British schools today).

          No it most certainly isn't, the American revolution is barely touched on at all in the UK curriculum. Why would we even cover the history of America?

  • Bottit! (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Vegan Cyclist ( 1650427 ) on Saturday June 17, 2023 @10:53AM (#63610302) Homepage

    Voting out mods?

    Reddit will soon be run by whatever country can deploy the most bots.

    • Quite a few subs already are, so the difference ain't gonna be that noticeable.

    • Reddit will soon be run by whatever country can deploy the most bots.

      This may actually be an improvement over the way reddit currently moderates. You create a sub, you are it's king, it's ruler, it's ruthless dictator, and many mods act like it.

    • Bots don't ban people over feelings or emotional power trips, I will take the bots.
    • Which will lead to "only accounts with more than [n] karma for posts in this subreddit can vote", and then there will be a workaround for that - probably farms of accounts that make ChatGPT posts and upvote each other for a while.

      We could see Reddit servers grinding to a halt trying to keep up with bots 'talking' to each other without any real human eyeballs involved. ...might be glorious!

  • by rsilvergun ( 571051 ) on Saturday June 17, 2023 @11:03AM (#63610312)
    they kicked out the moderators who were keeping it closed and replaced them with hired goons. It's a travesty that it's not bigger news.

    Reddit wants to lock down the platform so they can sell your user data for mining to marketers and political operatives & think tanks. You can't do that if the API is open, so no matter what it has to be closed.

    Reddit is about to turn into Facebook. Let that thought sink in.
    • by NobleNobbler ( 9626406 ) on Saturday June 17, 2023 @11:07AM (#63610314)

      Let the shittification begin!

      • If you think reddit was good before this, IDK what to say. Reddit has been trash since day 1. Unlike some more sensible sites, they didn't bother with any sort of reasonable moderation, and let people have unlimited up and downvotes and unlimited accounts so it's been ruled by sockpuppet accounts and organized trolling groups since its early days.

        It's almost hilarious to watch someone post something factual with evidence, only to see them get downvoted into oblivion. One of my last ones that I remember was

    • "hired goons"

      They paid people to moderate? Or just dangled a carrot for the disgruntled "you could moderate this! Run it your way!" etc., which is just fine until the swarms of bots get unleashed to shitpost the sub into irrelevance. Then there'll be a completely unexpected bailing by these new moderators who won't have a hope in hell of coping and Huffman will be all "dunno what happened there"...

    • Even with an open API, why can't you sell user data? That is a stupid argument.
  • by quonset ( 4839537 ) on Saturday June 17, 2023 @11:22AM (#63610336)

    he saw Musk's handling of Twitter, which he purchased last year, as an example for Reddit to follow.

    You mean Reddit will stop paying its bills like Twitter has [slashdot.org]?

  • just leave Reddit (Score:5, Informative)

    by fjorder ( 5219645 ) on Saturday June 17, 2023 @11:26AM (#63610342)
    Sorry to the moderators who spent a lot of time moderating.. but Reddit owns Reddit. If you don't like it, go somewhere else. I'm staying in the fediverse personally, after getting uncomfortable with corporations owning public discourse. "Lemmy" looks interesting but not mature like Mastodon.
  • Decentralize (Score:4, Insightful)

    by bill_mcgonigle ( 4333 ) * on Saturday June 17, 2023 @11:33AM (#63610348) Homepage Journal

    These people want a centralized platform to act like a decentralized protocol.

    Everybody would be happier if they just went in that direction - fediverse, bluesky, nntp - whatever.

  • by Pinky's Brain ( 1158667 ) on Saturday June 17, 2023 @11:51AM (#63610388)

    Reddit premium users being able to keep using apps and the app maker to make a little money from that will likely satisfy most of the mods, just need to get them to listen first. "Firing" the CEO is a good way to get everyone's attention.

    This would require a little more infrastructure and development than just charging per API call, even when in a hurry for an IPO, they don't have choice. The current situation is scaring investors far more than lack of income.

    The CEO is poison ... get him outta here.

    • This is exactly what I am saying too.

      $50 per year has to more than cover the ad and API costs of a single Redditor. Put the onus on the users who want to use the apps.

      I am also perfectly fine with saying if your app is making money and circumventing ads you probably owe Reddit some money fair is fair but it should be profitable but reasonable.

      The fact that they won't just be honest and say "no more API/3rd party apps" is just cowardly.

    • Based on what? Who will fire him? It's a private company run by its founder. The current CEO is the kink and reddit is his empire to foster or burn to the ground as he sees fit. He reports to no one.

    • Yes fire the boss, good luck with that. Oh wait, mods aren't even employees!
  • Yeah, from what I saw, those polls usually only have a very small percentage of the overall subscriber base for that sub. /r/askprogramming's poll have 400 total votes out of a 2million+ subscriber base. This was most likely the result of them not even bothering to sticky the poll thread and only allowed the poll to go on for 2 days. They called that democracy.

    • I also question the 'subscriber' numbers, as I don't believe you're ever really removed from the rolls once you're on them, especially if you abandon an account - not an infrequent occurrence among Redditors who might be using alts to avoid being ignored or to circumvent an arbitrary ban.

      Unique daily visitors is a better number, and I'm guessing they don't reveal that one because it's a LOT lower.

      • I don't even know if you can find those numbers publicly per sub. But even still, I would want to see far more than 400 total votes to confidently proclaim that it was democratic.

        • Reddit owns the database, it's not like it has a secured and independently audited access log. If they really wanted to, they'd fake these things without the mods even knowing it was happening.

          But in reality, the site visitors are so insignificant they'll just say whatever they want without really worrying if the public in general cares or buys it. If it looks good enough for investors, that's enough.

  • What?? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Archangel_Azazel ( 707030 ) on Saturday June 17, 2023 @10:30PM (#63611790) Homepage Journal

    "Huffman said he saw Musk's handling of Twitter, which he purchased last year, as an example for Reddit to follow."

    First of all that explains the asshole behavior, utter disregard for users, and complete brainless decision making.
    Second of all, that statement should be an alarm bell for every advertiser and user in that platform. Almost everyone out of the pool, aside from the pedos and neo-nazis of course. They should feel right at home with the wing nut conspiracy theorists and other assorted prison fodder. Enjoy being the other nazi bar in town.

  • These people moderate forums for free, and are acting like it's some huge task of equal importance to protecting national security. The childish whines of threatening to cry to advertisers is so absolutely hilarious in it's level of retarded-ness and desperation in clinging on to some miniscule power trip . The whole reason to need a moderator is because the forum creator/owner/admin is not able to stay online 24/7 enforcing whatever arbitrary rules they just so happen to make up at whatever opportune time.

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