Lamborghini Takes Last Combustion Engine Model Order (reuters.com) 80
Lamborghini's combustion engine models are sold out until the end of production, its chief executive was quoted as saying in the WELT newspaper on Wednesday, as the luxury carmaker transitions towards a pure hybrid lineup. From a report: Order books for its Hurucan and Urus models are full, marking the end of combustion engine vehicle production for the company, Stephan Winkelmann, head of the Volkswagen subsidiary, said. Lamborghini announced last July it would be investing at least 1.8 billion euros ($2 billion) to produce a hybrid lineup by 2024 and more to bring out its fully electric model by the end of the decade.
Huh.. (Score:1)
Overpriced trinkets.
Re: Huh.. (Score:5, Funny)
Translation: "I can't afford one"
Re: (Score:2)
I got mine for free after I bought $10 in Bitcoin.
new hybrid models stiil have an ICE (Score:5, Informative)
For example the hybrid Lamborghini Revuelto has an ICE quote: ...combining the power of a brand-new 12-cylinder internal combustion engine with three high-density electric motors...
Re:new hybrid models stiil have an ICE (Score:5, Informative)
RIght. It's obvious that electric is superior for acceleration, so they need to go at least hybrid to remain competitive. These will not be green in any meaningful sense.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
These will not be green in any meaningful sense.
Pretty sure their hybrids will see the same extended range per tank of gas other hybrids see which certainly makes them greener than their non hybrid cars.
Re: (Score:2)
Oh it will definitely make them greener, with CO2 savings estimates of 30% for their first hybrid car on the market (The Renault). It is certainly not a green car though. Top Teslas have similar performance but ridiculously less CO2 impact.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Oh it will definitely make them greener, with CO2 savings estimates of 30% for their first hybrid car on the market (The Renault). It is certainly not a green car though. Top Teslas have similar performance but ridiculously less CO2 impact.
Top Teslas are only fast for a short while till their battery complains. Hybrids OTOH add supplemental power to the ICE.
Compare Formula E (full electric) to Formula 1 (hybrid) for the difference in state-of-the-art race cars. They are not even remotely close.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I wondered how expensive it would be to add enhancements to EVs like with ICE engines. Like say you want your Model 3 to go faster, what would you do to add horsepower and torque?
Costs? As with ICE vehicles, the sky is the limit. You can take it as far as you can afford.
How / what to do? Add supercapacitors, upgrade voltage regulators, and software tuned to deliver the increased amounts of electricity to the motors. You could even add more motors (going from a standard single or performance dual motor system to a full 4 motor system). Just don't expect Tesla to support you in your efforts.
Re: (Score:2)
I wondered how expensive it would be to add enhancements to EVs like with ICE engines. Like say you want your Model 3 to go faster, what would you do to add horsepower and torque?
I don't know what the aftermarket hardware (motors, gearing where applicable, batteries etc) market will look like when people no longer have traditional ICE cars to mod. For now I think removing or tweaking limits in the software is about all there is for HP and TQ.
Of course you can still mod suspension and brakes, possibly steering, wheels and tires etc if you want to go faster in other than a straight line. Tesla brakes are notoriously bad so I'd expect lots of options there, but have never actually
Re: (Score:2)
Pretty sure their hybrids will see the same extended range per tank of gas other hybrids see which certainly makes them greener than their non hybrid cars.
They will see an improvement, but it will not be the same level of improvement because the tech is being used to make faster cars and not just equally performant ones. Economy-oriented hybrids are mostly slower than similar ICEVs they are priced against. These are going to be faster than their predecessors. They will still see significant benefits from regen, though, so yes they will wind up with better mileage — just not as much better as cheaper vehicles.
Re:new hybrid models stiil have an ICE (Score:4, Insightful)
Hybrids are ideal for commuters in daily stop-and-go traffic - exactly the type of traffic we should try to replace by improving public transport.
Re: (Score:2)
Why would hybrids be worse in mountainous areas, where they can regen while going downhill?
Anyway, these hybrid lambos will be a bit more efficient when driving to a fancy restaurant (which is what they're mostly used for) and a little quicker at the cost of a bit more weight in an already fat car. So mostly a win, though in the big picture it won't make a difference either way.
Re: (Score:2)
Why would hybrids be worse in mountainous areas, where they can regen while going downhill?
"Worse" doesn't make much sense. "Not much better" might, since most hybrids have very tiny batteries. If you're descending for a long time, you can only regen for a few minutes and then you're back to using brakes to slow your descent. Hybrids should do much better in hilly areas, of course, where you're going up and down, up and down.
Anyway, these hybrid lambos will be a bit more efficient when driving to a fancy restaurant (which is what they're mostly used for) and a little quicker at the cost of a bit more weight in an already fat car. So mostly a win, though in the big picture it won't make a difference either way.
Yeah. As another poster said, they're Lambos, the only way to make them green is to paint them green.
Re: (Score:2)
Yes going down a mountain will definitely help the hybrid work better. But the problem is mountainous terrain is rarely up and down in a way that makes hybrids work. It's not like stop-and-go traffic, where hybrids work the best. It's usually a long, slow climb and then a long descent, so you won't see that much benefit from hybrid really.
Re: (Score:3)
Re:new hybrid models stiil have an ICE (Score:5, Funny)
It's a Lambo. The only way it'll be green is in you paint it. British Racing Green to the rescue.
Re: (Score:2)
I don't think there's ever been a Lamborghini painted British Racing Green, even aftermarket. Certainly not in the past 50 years.
Re: (Score:2)
It should also help with braking - you're less likely to boil the brake fluid if you're pulling, say, half the kinetic energy out via the motors as opposed to all being scrubbed by the brakes.
Re: (Score:2)
These will not be green in any meaningful sense.
You are totally right off course. Still, the amount of exhaust gasses also depends on whether it is a plug-in hybrid and on how large the batteries are.
Re:new hybrid models stiil have an ICE (Score:4, Informative)
Anyone buying a Lamborghini or other exotic car is not about "being green". I mean, it's pretty obvious when the car is equipped with a V12 or other exotic engine configuration. Ditto with other cars - no one buys a Rolls Royce for good gas mileage. Ditto Bentley and others. (After all, those cars aren't very lightweight at all, so you need a powerful engine just to move all that mass down the road).
And yes, the headline should be clarify that it's their combustion only engine models, they still sell ICE equipped vehicles, but they are hybrids with an electric motor attached for extra power.
This is especially since ICE vehicles have a significant lag between throttle action and when you feel it - stomp on the gas pedal and it will take half a second before you're actually moving as it takes time for the engine to accelerate and get into the power band. Electric motors react instantly will full torque so you touch it and it goes with instant power to the wheels.
In fact, that's the biggest issue - the power often needs to be modulated because if you send too much power too fast to the tires, they will spin out.
Re: (Score:2)
>>This is especially since ICE vehicles have a significant lag between throttle action and when you feel it ...
This is true of standard passenger cars, but it is decidedly NOT true when dealing with supercars (while I"m not rich enough to own a Lambo, I've had several Maseratis, a Bora to name one) which are on a world of their own. Instant response to the loud pedal is the name of the game.
Re: (Score:2)
This is true of standard passenger cars, but it is decidedly NOT true when dealing with supercars
Of course it is. Supercars have a lot more power but they don't suddenly magically have a flat torque vs RPM curve. Seriously spend some time reading detailed reviews of supercars from people who actually test and drive them for a living and you'll find wide and varying discussions about lag whether caused electrically, a function of the engine size and RPM, or turbocharger vs supercharger.
There is a solution to lag though, it's what this discussion is about and Lamborghini isn't the first or only company t
Re: (Score:2)
I don't understand their "pure hybrid" name.
It's either pure EV or pure ICE.
Hybrid is not pure anything.
Re: (Score:2)
So the ICE powers one wheel and the other 3 have electric motors? That seems weird.
I thought that the best way to go would be to have an electric motor on each wheel with the ICE just powering an electric generator and batteries to give it extra acceleration when needed.
Re: (Score:1)
Re:new hybrid models stiil have an ICE (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
The best place to put the electric motors is in the front, because you can use them to replace the drivetrain that goes there on so many modern performance vehicles. As well, they will add weight to the front of a mid-engined vehicle, which improves front-rear balance.
Re: (Score:2)
Ideally, perhaps make the engine a generator, and go all electric for the drivetrain? This way, the engine just keeps the battery bank going, and doesn't need its own mechanical connection, which simplifies the drivetrain. A serial hybrid would be a nice transition point for people who want an EV, but don't have a home charger, and don't want to fight the Tesla people for the single charger in the parking lot.
Re: (Score:1)
Since the vehicles are mid engine, rear wheel drive, there is no driveline between the engine and the rear wheels... just a transaxle. Eliminating the transaxle and replacing it with a generator and motors doesn't save any weight to speak of. I think it makes more sense to ride that out until they go full EV. But eliminating the drive shaft to the front, the center diff, and the front diff will save both the weight and the hassle of the driveline, if nothing else...
Re: (Score:2)
I'm thinking along the lines of having some sort of fuel mechanism, just for the racetrack. Tossing gas into a tank and having a turbine engine keep the battery bank topped off would allow for some all day fun without having to park and charge for 30-45 minutes. Of course, an EV brings along a ton of design freedom, perhaps even one electric motor on each wheel, for true four wheel drive acceleration.
Re: (Score:2)
The problem with per-wheel motors is that you wind up having to go huge if you want performance. In the best mechanical AWD systems you can transfer 100% of the power to either end of the vehicle, and lock the wheels together so they work at the same speed. But emulating that with hub motors (or just near-wheel motors) means literally half the maximum output part of the time under those conditions if one wheel is slipping part of the time. I have wondered if you could have two motors in the space where you
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:1)
The drive train of a mid-engine car powers the rear axle. Front wheel drive only makes sense if the engine sits near the front axle.
Absolutely nobody suggested making a front wheel drive Lamborghini. Try reading that comment again. Maybe do some research on how many wheels of current Lamborghinis are driven first so you can come up to speed.
wait, this is a better reply (Score:2)
Found the car noob who doesn't know the difference between a drivetrain and a powertrain, but thinks they're qualified to talk about cars anyway
Re: (Score:2)
Re:new hybrid models stiil have an ICE (Score:4, Informative)
No, one electric motor is in the transmission and also works as a starter-generator. I assume the other two are in the two rear wheels as many Lamborghinis are rear-wheel driven.
Many are awd actually, especially compared to others that tend to be traditionally rwd still. Anyway, it looks most likely that there will be two motors in the front for the front wheels and one integrated into the transmission or axle or something like that
The Revuelto packs a 814-hp 6.5-liter V12 that can rev up to 9,500 RPM, three electric motors (two upfront, one in the rear) and an eight-speed DCT. Thereâ(TM)s also a 3.8-kWh battery pack that can send up to 187 hp to any of the three motors as needed. Power goes to all four wheels, with the V12 primarily powering the rear ones. Electric torque vectoring is also included as a Lamborghini first, and it has all the goodies youâ(TM)d expect from this car at this price, including tons of carbon fiber and active aerodynamics.
https://www.theautopian.com/i-... [theautopian.com]
Re: (Score:2)
Sounds like pretty much the same setup as the gen2 NSX https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-... [ieee.org]
Re: (Score:2)
Not so. Mid-engined car, Mostly AWD because of the tremendous power. Two motors in front for torque-vectoring.
Re: (Score:2)
I'd assume the front wheels, to get AWD acceleration while leaving the ICE drivetrain rear-wheel drive. Like the corvette does.
High performance at this point utterly demands AWD, you can only make the rear tires so grippy.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
High-performance hybrid cars typically can deliver power to the wheels from both electric and combustion motors, at the same time. The drive trains are fully integrated.
Re: (Score:2)
That's true of performance hybrids with one electric motor, but if they have three then usually two of the wheels are powered only electrically, with a motor per wheel, and the third motor is attached to the transmission in between the engine and transmission and replacing a torque converter.
Re: (Score:2)
Also I finally RTFA and as the battery will be in what used to be the tunnel for the driveshaft [robbreport.com] it's clear that the front wheels will be electric-only. So they will have a 1001-(150*3)=551hp V12 and a 150hp electric motor at the rear wheels, and a 150hp electric motor at each front wheel. In a turn you won't be able to deliver all 1001hp, because they will emulate a front differential by reducing power to the inside front wheel...
Re: (Score:2)
OMG, you cheated and read TFA!!
Re: (Score:2)
Came here to ask what they think they mean by "last combustion engine order?"
Re: (Score:2)
Hybrid is still ICE (Score:1)
I love the thinly veiled attempt to make it sound like they are doing something for the environment, but really they are still just making stupid toys for the super rich.
Re: (Score:2)
They're gonna lose customers (Score:2)
Rich posers strutting around downtown in Lambos at walking speed won't be able to call attention to themselves by revving their engine and annoying the shit out of evebody.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:1)
Rich posers strutting around downtown in Lambos at walking speed won't be able to call attention to themselves by revving their engine and annoying the shit out of evebody.
Revving engines is for Mustangs, Lambos are attention-drawing enough just from the body design, or the way they pass you at 240MPH.
Re:They're gonna lose customers (Score:4, Funny)
Yeah you definitely grew up in the leaded gasoline era.
Re: (Score:2)
I'm sure they'll find a way to pipe out some synthetic engine noise. Witness the the tiny-penis crowd touting "Fratzonic" [youtu.be] sound in the new Dodge Charger Daytona.
Bud Light decision (Score:1)
How soon until they come back with a new V10 model or get bought out for pennies on the dollar?
Nonsense (Score:5, Insightful)
First, they're already part of Volkswagen, so they won't get bought out unless VW goes bankrupt or decides the need a cash injection.
And going hybrid here is about adding power, not about going green. This will increase performance, so not doing it would be giving up their market to those that do. They're tired of getting left behind by Teslas. (A Urus has a 0-60 time of 3.1 seconds vs. a Model X Plaid of 2.5.)
Re: (Score:1)
Until that Tesla has to turn a corner.
Re: (Score:3)
Re:Nonsense (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:3)
Re:Nonsense (Score:4, Informative)
I'll bet the Tesla can't do a second hot lap right after the first.
Tesla set the 7:25 lap record on the second lap right after breaking it's previous record on the first lap. Seriously, show me on this doll where the EV touched you causing you to hate on it so much.
By the way this discussion about Tesla is asinine, they aren't even the fastest EV. The Volkswagen (you know that company who owns Lamborghini) ID-R holds the current EV lap record, and is nearly a minute and a half faster than the Urus. And yes it also has no problem doing more than one lap at a time. It's not like EVs generate that much heat going at full throttle. Generating heat and requiring upwards of a megawatt of cooling is the staple of the inefficient thing known as a combustion engine.
Re: (Score:3)
Tesla set the 7:25 lap record on the second lap right after breaking it's previous record on the first lap. Seriously, show me on this doll where the EV touched you causing you to hate on it so much.
Well I will admit 15 minutes of hooning is good. They have come a long way from the days a couple hot 1/4 mile runs would be all you get on a charge. Obviously fixed the brakes too. That said I doubt a Models S would beat a Formula E car in an actual race, and Formula E cars would likewise have a tough time with a decent supercar, so it's nice that Tesla has optimized putting down a lot of power in a short time at the Ring, but don't kid yourself it won't also be the first to die. No getting around that
Re: (Score:2)
That said I doubt a Models S would beat a Formula E car in an actual race
No of course not. As I said it wasn't even the fastest, and the Model S isn't designed to be either a Formula E car or even a hyper car. It's a family sedan, which I think is what makes its racing record so absolutely incredible.
but don't kid yourself it won't also be the first to die. No getting around that energy density thing.
It's funny you mention this. I think you have no appreciation for just how quickly energy is consumed in a hypercar. You know you can empty the entire fuel tank in a Veyron in under 8 minutes right, and that has a 100L tank.
At best your argument may be that it won't survive an endur
Re: (Score:2)
At best your argument may be that it won't survive an endurance race do to taking 15min to charge the battery, but saying it will be the first to die isn't a given in a racing car category. Even most F1 cars don't run more than around 30-45min (not because they can't, but because racing is a game of optimisation, and weight of fuel (they don't fill the tank all the way) is part of optimising when the car needs to be pitted. That's not much higher than the 25min the Formula E does.
Can tell you are not a racing fan.
F1 races are typically ~2 hours. They are allowed 110kg of fuel, and there are no refueling stops. F1 cars are also massively faster than Formula E cars, with around 1000 HP from a 1.6 liter V6 plus hybrid system. FE cars, with around 450HP, run ~45 minute races. FE cars also have no ground effects, because adding downforce would drain the batteries faster and make the races even shorter.
Actually I think a Model S would compete with a Formula E car for the first f
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
https://www.roadandtrack.com/n... [roadandtrack.com]
Re: (Score:2)
Inconsequential (Score:2)
Lamborghini sells less than 10,000 cars per years, which makes this news is inconsequential to 99.9999987% percent of the world's population.
Re: (Score:1)
It's VW's halo car. It doesn't matter if it is profitable or not.
Re: (Score:2)
Supercars are like the space program, eventually advancements trickle down to the general consumer level products. Especially here as Lambo is part of the VW family.
Really though this is more of a "sign of the times" as even Lambo, the prototypical last vestige of old-school ICE supercars, naturally aspirated raw power type cars is seeing the writing on the wall, from performance to customer demands and yes to emissions.
Just another sign of the end for the gasoline engine in the passenger car market. When
Re: (Score:2)
Supercars are like the space program, eventually advancements trickle down to the general consumer level products. Especially here as Lambo is part of the VW family.
Really though this is more of a "sign of the times" as even Lambo, the prototypical last vestige of old-school ICE supercars, naturally aspirated raw power type cars is seeing the writing on the wall, from performance to customer demands and yes to emissions.
Just another sign of the end for the gasoline engine in the passenger car market. When these companies do things even for their very small customer base it shapes perceptions for people and the industry.
Formula One cars have been hybrids since 2014, but the ICE part won't be going away anytime soon.
Re: (Score:1)
Make bigger models? (Score:3)
When I was young I wanted a Lambo and couldn't afford one.
Then I got older and was too tall to fit into one.