Paris Becomes the First European Capital To Ban Rented Electric Scooters 90
An anonymous reader shares a report: Paris became the first European capital to outlaw the vehicles on Friday, following a vote in April in which Parisiens overwhelmingly supported a ban, although turnout was low. Privately owned e-scooters, which the city cannot regulate, are exempt. Since their eruption onto the streets and sidewalks of cities across the world in 2019, e-scooters have posed unique regulatory problems for city officials. The vehicles often stayed in legal limbo as officials mapped out charters for e-scooter operators, capped fleets and regulated parking.
Cities like San Francisco and Miami temporarily banned e-scooters before reintroducing them. Santa Monica, Calif., successfully sued an e-scooter operator over its lack of licensing. And New York delayed the vehicles' arrival, citing security concerns. But no city has been as strict as Paris, where e-scooter users are mourning a cheap and flexible way of getting around without having to ride the crammed metro or use Velib', the popular but frequently overwhelmed bike-sharing system.
Cities like San Francisco and Miami temporarily banned e-scooters before reintroducing them. Santa Monica, Calif., successfully sued an e-scooter operator over its lack of licensing. And New York delayed the vehicles' arrival, citing security concerns. But no city has been as strict as Paris, where e-scooter users are mourning a cheap and flexible way of getting around without having to ride the crammed metro or use Velib', the popular but frequently overwhelmed bike-sharing system.
Good (Score:5, Insightful)
These things are a plague.
Re:Good (Score:5, Insightful)
It is probably about the quite anarchic use of them. Users abandon them in odds places, usually in the middle of the sidewalk. A plague for pedestrians and especially people in wheelchairs. People, especially young people, tend to drive them very recklessly. Driving at high speed sometimes on sidewalks and expecting pedestrians to move quickly to avoid them.
Re:Good (Score:4, Informative)
It is probably about the quite anarchic use of them. Users abandon them in odds places, usually in the middle of the sidewalk. A plague for pedestrians and especially people in wheelchairs. People, especially young people, tend to drive them very recklessly. Driving at high speed sometimes on sidewalks and expecting pedestrians to move quickly to avoid them.
It's more than that. People have been killed [bbc.com] by these rental e-scooters, not to mention the hundreds who have been injured.
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> Wait until people learn about car fatalities?!!?
Most (all?) of the scooter related fatalities are the rider. There is no requirement for safety gear (e.g. helmet) and no way to enforce that requirement even if there was. There is also no age restrictions or licensing/training requirements. Contrast to operating a car which has all of those things and more to improve the chances that the vehicle is safe and the operator is qualified.
> Don't most accidents happen in the home? We need to ban homes next
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Aren't the same "dangers" posed by people on bicycles? I mean, they can run over people and it's not like you have to wear
Re: Good (Score:3)
Bikes are safer (for the rider) than a scooter due to the larger wheels.
Scooter riders have a tendency to hit smaller bumps and flip over.
It's probably reasonable to require a helmet for scooter riders even while not for bike riders (not that it really matters as mentioned by GP wrt to enforcement practicality).
Scooters with their small wheels, perceived nimbleness, and high speeds are definitely more dangerous than an bike/e-bike. That isn't to say scooters themselves should be banned, I actually think the
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Skateboards and roller skates have even smaller wheels. :-)
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They generally are not motorised, so novices new to them are not travelling at the same speed as cars.
Re: Good (Score:2)
Sadly skateboards are often treated as toys and completely illegal to use for transport (off of private space).
I would think a motorized skateboard has some similar risks though, but without handlebars to go over it's probably wrists that are actually at risk. Since wrist damage is generally less problematic than head damage it's not relevant.
Skates are going to generally be lower speed (I haven't seen motorized skates).
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A police officer can pull you over if you are riding your bicycle against traffic. Happened to me and my friend in high school. He just warned us and we listened and crossed the street and that was that.
You could mandate helmets. I think California requires motorcycle riders to wear a helmet and police could pull them over for that if they wanted to.
So sure, a cop could demand a scooter rider pull over for violating a safety rule but I'm not aware of any locality that has a helmet law.
Re: Good (Score:2)
I forget where, but someone was talking about them in a video I was watching and said they did have a helmet law specifically for scooters where they were.
Unfortunately where I am they count as toys and aren't allowed to be used off of private property.
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Bicycle riders are far more likely to be riding on the street than on the sidewalk, and more likely to get a ticket when they don't.
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Since when are bicycles not allowed on sidewalks?
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They are allowed here in Austin where i live and they were not in Brussels where i grew up. In fact in the whole of Belgium. Your mileage may vary. And even in Austin you are supposed to be extra cautious and slow if you cycle on the sidewalk.
Re: Good (Score:2)
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Since when are bicycles not allowed on sidewalks?
PA laws note that you are not permitted to ride a bicycle on the sidewalk in a business district. And in non business districts, they may ride on them but do not have the right of way.
This ends up with kids in the suburbs riding on non densely packed sidewalks, and bicyclists ususlly riding on the roads, where they do have right of way. https://www.penndot.pa.gov/Tra... [pa.gov]
Re: Good (Score:2)
I don't use these scooters but that reasoning is dubious. If we can enforce these rules for cars, why can't we do the same with rental scooters? Should be even easier to enforce if you ask me, because the rider has to identify themselves before they can even ride one. Cars don't even offer that.
More to the point, if a scooter is left in a bad place, it should be easy to tell who put it there. And you're arguing that cars are safer for the driver you're not even addressing the pedestrians, who I think would
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If we can enforce these rules for cars, why can't we do the same with rental scooters?
seatbelt law enforcement? rofl .... where do you live? in my city (that has rental scooters) there is practically no enforcement of traffic laws anymore, you can drive around with no plates passing people in turn lanes in front of the cops.
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Before the liberals gave up on traffic laws, cops did indeed use to pull people over for traffic violations. Often times, it may not be the seat belt that gets you pulled over but rather the speeding or running a red light. Then the tickets start adding up as you don't have a seat belt on, don't have your insurance or registration or license. Those are all offenses.
Screw up bad enough and you could get your car impounded all because you were speeding.
Ironically, we are now seeing more high speed accidents i
Re: Good (Score:2)
Sounds like you've got bigger problems than scooters.
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> Wait until people learn about car fatalities?!!?
Most (all?) of the scooter related fatalities are the rider. There is no requirement for safety gear (e.g. helmet) and no way to enforce that requirement even if there was. There is also no age restrictions or licensing/training requirements. Contrast to operating a car which has all of those things and more to improve the chances that the vehicle is safe and the operator is qualified.
I think you are seeing it the wrong way. It would be more preferable if those who suffer fatalities are the individuals riding the electric scooters, particularly if their lack of safety gear played a role (which is explicitly advised on e-scooters). This could be seen as a form of natural selection in action. Personally, I strongly favor this outcome over the possibility of being struck by a two-ton car while cycling or walking and simply going about my own business.
Also, most escooters accidents are actua
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There is no requirement for safety gear (e.g. helmet) and no way to enforce that requirement even if there was.
The user agreements require you to wear safety gear, so if you don't that's on you. YMMV they don't provide helmets.
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There is no requirement for safety gear (e.g. helmet) and no way to enforce that requirement even if there was.
The user agreements require you to wear safety gear, so if you don't that's on you. YMMV they don't provide helmets.
In PA anyone under 12 is required to wear a helmet by law, passenger or otherwise.
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Most (all?) of the scooter related fatalities are the rider. There is no requirement for safety gear (e.g. helmet) and no way to enforce that requirement even if there was. There is also no age restrictions or licensing/training requirements. Contrast to operating a car which has all of those things and more to improve the chances that the vehicle is safe and the operator is qualified.
In the Paris area, at least, that's not even close to true. According to the Paris police [cnews.fr], the Paris area saw 8 rider deaths versus 43 pedestrian deaths in 2022 related to e-scooters, hoverboards, monowheels, and gyropods (and those last three are always privately owned and therefore usually more responsibly piloted and relatively uncommon, especially in comparison to e-scooters that could be rented on demand). That is up from 4 rider deaths and 31 pedestrian deaths in 2021. Those ratios were a huge factor
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the Paris area saw 8 rider deaths versus 43 pedestrian deaths in 2022 related to e-scooters, hoverboards, monowheels, and gyropods (and those last three are always privately owned and therefore usually more responsibly piloted and relatively uncommon, especially in comparison to e-scooters that could be rented on demand). That is up from 4 rider deaths and 31 pedestrian deaths in 2021.
Sorry, I read too fast and got that wrong -- it was 31 pedestrian deaths due to e-scooters and the like in 2022, compared to 43 pedestrian deaths in classic traffic accidents (i.e., involving a motor vehicle).
Been awhile since I posted anything here, is there no longer a way to edit a comment?
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There's never been a way on /. to edit a post after posting...
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Electric scooters have an injury rate more than 600x higher than ALL OTHER FORMS OF PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION.
https://housegrail.com/electri... [housegrail.com]
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“People have been killed” is stupid without comparative statistical context. Last I checked, pedestrians have been killed too. Pedestrians get hit by or run into cars or just trip & fall all the time.
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"To really understand how dangerous e-scooters can be, you need to compare them against other forms of public transportation. And with an injury rate that’s more than 600 times as high, it’s clear that e-scooters are the more dangerous choice." - Toronto Star
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It's more than that. People have been killed [bbc.com] by these rental e-scooters, not to mention the hundreds who have been injured.
Yeah but people have been killed on non-rental e-scooters, bicycles, cars, and even walking on sidewalk, and we don't complain about that.
The reality is a certain risk to the public is generally tolerated. These aren't regulated because a few people got killed, they are regulated because they are public menace, and are being banned for the same reason as every other public menace, e.g. Amsterdam which banned shared bicycles which don't come with a fixed dock and parking space.
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It is probably about the quite anarchic use of them. Users abandon them in odds places, usually in the middle of the sidewalk. A plague for pedestrians and especially people in wheelchairs. People, especially young people, tend to drive them very recklessly. Driving at high speed sometimes on sidewalks and expecting pedestrians to move quickly to avoid them.
It's more than that. People have been killed [bbc.com] by these rental e-scooters, not to mention the hundreds who have been injured.
3 deaths... 450 odd injuries though and that is from all e-scooters, not just the rented ones. Privately owned ones are still exempt. An injury could be anything from a scraped knee to broken bones requiring hospitalisation. I'm willing to bet that in most of the serious incidents that wearing a bicycle helmet would have turned them into minor incidents.
I saw these around Berlin last year when I went. They seemed like a good idea until I looked them up, the app was a pile of crap and would (reportedly) f
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Yeah, I actually just bought one for cheap, and I've been playing with it for about a week now.
They are in a weird spot, honestly. They are too fast for sidewalks is pedestrians are around (15-20mph), but too slow to be on most regular streets. They are closest to bikes I guess, but aren't generally allowed on recreational bike paths, even when e-bikes ARE allowed.
Re: Good (Score:3)
15-20mph is faster than a bike, and bikes are typically used on regular streets just fine.
Re: Good (Score:2)
I don't think bikes are usually used on regular streets just fine.
Bikes are generally not used because regular streets and narrow painted bike lanes make them unlikely to be used by the vast majority of people.
The nice thing about e-bikes and scooters is that their speed does begin to make them fast enough to be more practical for more people to use on city streets. I know I feel much safer on my e-bike now that I can reliably go 20+ mph, and it's greatly increased the locations I can get to without fear fo
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According to cyclistshub.com, the average cycling speed for mid-intermediate to mid-advanced cyclists is 14.5-20mph, so the difference isn't big. I'm not a very good cyclist myself, and I tend to average 12-14 mph on pavement on my hybrid bike, so I expect I would be well within the scooter range on a road bike.
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Driving at high speed sometimes on sidewalks and expecting pedestrians to move quickly to avoid them.
Why couldn't the city just impose speed limits on them?
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Driving at high speed sometimes on sidewalks and expecting pedestrians to move quickly to avoid them.
Why couldn't the city just impose speed limits on them?
Or maybe snipers? 8^)
Re:Good (Score:5, Interesting)
Can you or someone enlighten me as to what is so bad about e-scooters?
I'm in a city that has a public e-scooter system, and in the early days the main problems were people tearing through pedestrian areas and along footpaths and leaving them strewn all over the place. This was pretty nuts at the start, but the city and scooter operators gradually started tightening the system up to prevent this sort of behaviour. They went crazy with geo-fencing so you basically couldn't go faster than walking pace on shared pedestrian/cycle zones, and moved the 'parking zones' so that they were more out of the way. They also have a system where when you first sign up you can only go really slowly until you've built up enough experience points or something like that.
Now they seem to work quite well and I haven't had any real issues with them since (as a pedestrian and cyclist).
I think the main improvement was just not letting them go fast on shared pedestrian zones. The combination of putting the riders head above all the pedestrians, being small and nimble, and being able to rapidly accelerate and brake repeatedly, means that they can weave in and out of a crowd in a way that a cyclist can't. And loads of people did this and seemed to think shared pedestrian areas were a form of slalom run. Removing their ability to do this seemed to fix most of the problems.
Re: Good (Score:1)
Re: Good (Score:1)
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The biggest two knocks against them I keep seeing is that people keep running into others when riding, and they are not responsible with them when done. Just leave them where ever. Bushes. Trees. Waterways. Roads.
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Well, yes and no. The scooter providers enable the assholes.
Re: Good (Score:2)
You know, most people who scoot or cycle also own a car too. If they behave like arseholes when theyâ(TM)re vulnerable road users, how do you think they behave when they sitting comfortably within the safety of their four wheeled two ton metal killing machine? Itâ(TM)s not the mode of transport thatâ(TM)s the problem, but the people using it.
Re: Good (Score:2)
I think it's the dockless nature leads to them just being strewn about in the way.
This is amplified by the fact that they're rentals so the users don't have any issue with just leaving them in the middle of everything.
I see scooters as a great solution to expand one's range of not needing a car for very little money (much cheaper than an e-bike), but the dockless rentals appear to be quite annoying whenever I've visited cities with them.
People riding them on sidewalks due to poor bike infrastructure is a pr
Did you not read, mofo? (Score:1)
He said they are a plague.
'Nuff said.
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Indeed. As the assholes behind this idea want to make money, they did not run trials and then pulled them again when it became obvious they are not a good idea in practice. They just kept going.
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> what is so bad about e-scooters?
Only one thing, really. In my city it's pretty common for the riders of those scooters (E, or otherwise)... and also those (not-)hoverboards, and the electric unicycles, various similar vehicles, and not a few plain old bicycle riders... to obnoxiously bring them up onto the sidewalks where they take up space meant for pedestrians, ofttimes ride them there unsafely and faster than a pedestrian's walking pace, leave the rental ones in inappropriate places, lock the bicyc
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Can you or someone enlighten me as to what is so bad about e-scooters?
I've never come across them before...but I can't imagine why people hate them so much from seeing them in pictures?
I thought everyone in especially urban type cities would love these as they'd keep more cars off the streets?
I was in downtown Austin for a wedding a couple years ago. There were idiots on scooters everywhere. People were literally riding on the road, then would jump up on the sidewalk to bypass traffic at a light, then jump right back onto the street. Then whenever you pass some idiot on a scooter, they just filter back through the traffic at the next light and pull up right in front of you again, forcing you to find a way to pass them again or be stuck going 20 mph. Basically every bad behavior you can think of
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I live in a small town of 17,000 people. Bird came here a few years back and those damn scooters were left everywhere. Middle of the road, sidewalks, even in my yard which is not at an intersection. I tried to move the ones in my yard and they started chirping loudly and the wheels locked up. That lasted about 2 years, they are gone now. Good fucking riddance.
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Its a big hunk of abandoned garbage sitting on the sidewalk that I have to step over.
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No. People who don't take the shopping cart back to its correct place/dump electric scooters around randomly instead of properly parking them are a plague.
Be excellent. Don't be an asshole.
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So are cars, and bicycles, and mopeds, and pretty much every personal transportation method.
To be fair, Paris has rather good public transportation, and most people there don't use anything else on a day-to-day basis. Still there are some cases where it doesn't work. In particular during strikes, and strikes will never be banned.
The city cannot regulate (Score:3)
Wait! What?
Just classify them as motor vehicles. They have a motor. They are vehicles. Job done.
Re:The city cannot regulate (Score:4, Informative)
You just classified wheelchairs as motor Vehicles.
Of course you might want to add exceptions for mobility needs, but you made a blanket statement. Classifications are already part of existing laws in many jurisdictions. Which is why escooters and ebikes are allowed.
The real fix is to punish the assholes and leave the polite people alone. But assholes ruin everything, because they can.
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Only motorised wheelchairs.
But otherwise ... the problem is?
They have motors. They're on the public highway (which includes both pavements and roadways). You need appropriate training, licensing, insurance, registration and regular safety checks. 38kg "mobility device" or 38,000 kg articulated lorry - training, licensing, insurance, registration and regular safety checks. It's not complex.
Speak for yourself. I
People voted against. (Score:2)
People voted against.
Banned.
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Just classify them as motor vehicles. They have a motor. They are vehicles. Job done.
Congrats, you just banned e-bikes, mobility scooters, and electric wheelchairs.
Laws and regulation require far more thought than you think in order to be sensible and effective. Your job isn't done, you just made things far worse. What will your electorate think?
Re:The city cannot regulate (Score:4, Insightful)
Why do you think regulating/licensing something is the same as banning them?
Are you confusing them with guns?
Ban the dangerous cars, use the roads for ebikes. (Score:5, Insightful)
Paris is *still* a horrible car-filled city, where pedestrians have to wait at every corner for the chance to risk crossing the road.
Kick the cars out.
Re: Ban the dangerous people. They generate CO2. (Score:2)
I don't think the OP was referring to CO2, but to how cars really degrade the livability of a dense city.
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Why not go a step further and ban fat people?
We're talking about Paris - the city in France, not Paris - the town in Texas.
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What's so wrong with banning cars? Have you compared the air before cars became a thing with the air today? How many millions die every year breathing that crap? How many get killed on roads?
And please don't bleat about "but our civilization needs cars" -- there are so many better ways to get people and items around.
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Ha, that's funny! Before cars, there was a terrible pollution problem in large cities: mountains and mountains of horse dung. I cannot imagine how bad that smelled. Plus it attracting various bugs and diseases. Cars were hailed as a much cleaner way for people to get around. And don't think that people didn't get run down by horse drawn carriages.
Just because (ICE) cars are the current problem does not mean that things were perfect before they existed.
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I'm not saying things can't be, or wasn't, bad. What I'm saying is that transportation can be a lot more convenient, at the same time stopping the full speed plunge down the cliff it does the the planet, if innovation wasn't on purpose held back by a group of monied bastards.
In '50s last century, city trams were scrapped all around the world. In '90s, rail networks got the same treatments. Suburbs get _purposefully_ built in a way that makes walking not possible. All attempts to introduce novel ways of
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It's so brilliantly obvious that only Top-Gear-watching retarded neanderthal children who express their manhood through the capacity of their truck's engine could think it wrong.
And there can't be any of those on Slashdot can
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Paris is *still* a horrible car-filled city, where pedestrians have to wait at every corner for the chance to risk crossing the road.
Kick the cars out.
Paris is working on that too: https://www.bloomberg.com/news... [bloomberg.com]
They were a good idea (Score:2)
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Which means they *weren't* a good idea. Ideas which fail to take reality into account aren't good ideas.
People voted against that kind of plague. (Score:2)
People voted against that kind of plague.
I'm not sure I'd oppose this (Score:1)
Hallelujah (Score:2)
I wasn't previously aware that anything made sense in France.