Google Says It's No. 1 Search Tool Because Users Prefer It to Rivals (bloomberg.com) 170
Companies choose Alphabet's Google as the default search engine for their browsers and smartphones because it is the best one, and not because of a lack of competition, a Google lawyer said Tuesday at the start of a high-stakes antitrust trial in Washington. From a report: Consumers use Google "because it delivers value to them, not because they have to," John Schmidtlein, a partner at Williams & Connolly LLP who is representing the company, said during his opening statements on the first day of the trial. "Users today have more search options and ways to access information online than ever before."
Schmidtlein pushed back on claims by US Justice Department antitrust enforcers that Google has used its market power -- and billions of dollars in exclusive deals with web browsers -- to illegally block rivals. Users have choices, and it's easy to switch, he said. For example, Microsoft pre-selects its own search engine, Bing, on Windows PCs, yet most PC users switch to Google because it's a better product, he said. Web browsers offered by Apple and Mozilla, which makes Firefox, have long chosen a default search engine in exchange for a revenue-share that helps pay for innovations, Schmidtlein said.
Schmidtlein pushed back on claims by US Justice Department antitrust enforcers that Google has used its market power -- and billions of dollars in exclusive deals with web browsers -- to illegally block rivals. Users have choices, and it's easy to switch, he said. For example, Microsoft pre-selects its own search engine, Bing, on Windows PCs, yet most PC users switch to Google because it's a better product, he said. Web browsers offered by Apple and Mozilla, which makes Firefox, have long chosen a default search engine in exchange for a revenue-share that helps pay for innovations, Schmidtlein said.
Google? They are still around? (Score:5, Informative)
Must have been 3 years or so since I used them last. They just got to crappy and too irrelevant. I do not have 5 minutes to sift through all the irrelevant crap Google delivers every time I search something.
Re:Google? They are still around? (Score:5, Insightful)
Must have been 3 years or so since I used them last. They just got to crappy and too irrelevant. I do not have 5 minutes to sift through all the irrelevant crap Google delivers every time I search something.
Which search engine do you use? If it's one I haven't tried then I'll give it a go.
I agree that Google sucks more and more with each passing week; but when I try to use DDG its results suck even harder, so I often end up back at Google. It's been a while since I last used Startpage and I seem to recall that the results were OK, but there also it was difficult to replicate Google's "allintext" operator.
But Google is adhering less and less strictly to such search modifiers, seemingly at an almost daily rate. If that keeps up, then for me there will be no reason to use their SE at all. And if I use Startpage then IIRC I'm basically seeing Google results anyway.
Re:Google? They are still around? (Score:5, Informative)
Hmm. I have made good experiences with DDG. In fact, it is what I use mostly these days, except for work were Bing is the default (somewhat usable for work). Maybe it depends on how you use DDG.
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It's my general experience that DDG's search results are 100% identical to Bing's. I'm using a great deal of ad and script blocking, so I don't see whatever ad bullshit is put there by either, but Bing's results are typically a lot less useful than Google's as far as the information I'm actually trying to find.
I do see a lot of people complaining that Google has gotten worse and I wonder if it's just because there are people who haven't heard the gospel of blocking ads or are lazy or have insufficient tech
Re:Google? They are still around? (Score:5, Interesting)
I do see a lot of people complaining that Google has gotten worse and I wonder if it's just because there are people who haven't heard the gospel of blocking ads or are lazy or have insufficient tech skills to use platforms and software that allow ad blocking.
Not in my case. Ad-blocking does not help when the literal search results are crap. There was no way to make Google tolerable, so I left. I guess you just have a lot more bullshit-tolerance than I do.
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DDG is nothing but a themed Bing
DDG (Score:2)
Re:DDG (Score:5, Interesting)
Yep, same here. I did go to Google in the beginning, but it basically never delivered when DDG has failed. I have stopped doing that now. What I really want is the original AltaVista back with working logical expressions. Well, maybe we will get some not-as-good version of that via "AI" search eventually.
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What I really want is the original AltaVista back with working logical expressions. Well, maybe we will get some not-as-good version of that via "AI" search eventually.
I do miss Alta Vista. I expressed that sentiment here several years ago; it was suggested both that my memory was unreliable, and that Alta Vista wouldn't even be usable on what the Web had evolved into at that point. Both assertions were probably true; but if I could use Alta Vista-style logical statements on today's Web to get the quality of info I got back then, I'd be a happy camper.
That said, I found Google to be VERY good in its first few years. Even later, it was still quite useful if you knew how to
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> What I really want is the original AltaVista back with working logical expressions.
I am so glad to read that.
I thought for decades I was the only one to prefer AltaVista.
Cheers!
Re: DDG (Score:2)
Same here, but I'd say I use !g only about 0.01% of the time. The only thing I consistently get better results in Google is when searching images.
Re:Google? They are still around? (Score:5, Informative)
When DuckDuckGo doesn't deliver, there is always StartPage [startpage.com]
DuckDuckGo is a privacy wrapper powered by Bing. StartPage is a privacy wrapper powered by Google.
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Actually, DDG uses a number of search APIs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
This cuts down on the BS to some degree. Far from perfect, but Google is just an atrocity these days.
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Oh, I didn't know it used other sources too.
Well, it was already my favorite. Now it has even more reasons for being my favorite.
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DDG claims to use a number of different APIs, but in practice the search results seem to 99% identical to Bing. Maybe Bing is pulling from the same APIs, who knows. The point is that DDG's search results are not as good as Google's 99% of the time.
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... I like that it defaults to opening clicked results in new tabs. DDG can do that, too, (not by default) but more and more it seems to lose its settings and I have to keep changing that.
It's never even occurred to me to have the SE handle that. For me right clicking and selecting "Open Link in New Tab" is almost as reflexive as breathing. Why would I trust fickle website developers when even Mozilla devs haven't (yet) found a way to fuck up the context menu?
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Hmm. I have made good experiences with DDG. In fact, it is what I use mostly these days, except for work were Bing is the default (somewhat usable for work).
DDG is, in essence, Bing.
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Google is better than DDG for technical stuff at least in my experience.
Bing is always trying to sell me something.
Re:Google? They are still around? (Score:5, Informative)
I did a simple test in another story. Searched for alphastation models on google and by the third result it was already offtopic. Did the same search on Bing and the first page of results was all relevant. DDG gives exactly the same sites in the same order as Bing.
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If you just put quotes around alpha station you get pages of relevant results on Google.
So you choice is learn the basics of how to use Google, or you can muck about with Bing quality results for the 99% of searches that Google does a better job with.
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I shouldn’t have to specifically tell google to stop ignoring my terms. That means their search is defective.
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It means that 99% of the time people don't want to guess the precise wording for the thing they want.
As I said, you either have a default that is right 99% of the time, or one that produces worse results in most cases but saves you typing a couple of characters for the other 1%.
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I shouldn’t have to specifically tell google to stop ignoring my terms. That means their search is defective.
And yet DDG ignores some of my search terms very frequently, and when I do EXACTLY the same search on Google the results usually include more of my terms. Then I'll go back to DDG and add double quotes to get results which, even at that, may or may not be as good as Google's.
So DDG is also very good at "ignoring my terms", and therefore "their search is defective". Note that I'm not defending Google here - their search sucks ass, full stop. It's just that in my experience, it sucks ass a little less than DD
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I can't comment on the ads, as I block them.
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I use uBlock and whatever it is you are talking about doesn't appear for me.
Even just using DNS66 on Android with mobile Chrome gets rid of these things.
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I think he means those things with "ad" next to them you can thumb by at 2/3 the speed of light.
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What about when I do that and it autocorrects it and says "searched instead for this other more common phrase"?
Your sentiments are just gunna make people madder at google. If that's the aim then good job i guess?
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Which search engine do you use? If it's one I haven't tried then I'll give it a go.
I bit the bullet and went with Kagi. Yes, I'm actually paying for search. I tried it out during a testing period and honestly, the results are great. I like the per-site options, the "lenses" that let you focus search, retrieval speed, and most of all, the results don't seem to suck.
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Which search engine do you use? If it's one I haven't tried then I'll give it a go.
I bit the bullet and went with Kagi. Yes, I'm actually paying for search. I tried it out during a testing period and honestly, the results are great. I like the per-site options, the "lenses" that let you focus search, retrieval speed, and most of all, the results don't seem to suck.
Thanks - never heard of it but will investigate. I wouldn't mind paying for search if it was as good as Google used to be.
Oh the irony - I'm about to do either a Google search or a DDG search for 'Kagi'... :-{
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Same. Switched to DuckDuckGo and Firefox.
Now just need an alternative to Gmail..
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Gmail is trivial to replace compared to Google, at least from a hosting standpoint.
Pick a reliable host with a good reputation, buy your own domain name, and set up auto-renewing.
The hard part is updating everything to use your new email address.
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Used to be (Score:5, Interesting)
Google used to be the best search engine. Not any longer since they have polluted it with advertising and paid links at the top of searches. I find myself using duckduckgo much more often now when just a few years ago I would not have given another search engine a second thought.
Re: Used to be (Score:5, Interesting)
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TBH, I have been using Bing for years and it's fine. I also use DDG and Brave search depending on the browser I am using.
I will sometimes check results against Google and they are nearly always about the same if not a little worse than others.
Google's claim that people use their search because they want to is really disingenuous though. If that were true, then why do they pay all that money to make their search the default? That, right there, proves the falsehood of their claim.
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It's polluted with false MSM information and irrelevant opinions too. YouTube search is even worse. You can know the exact name of a site or video you want to see and Google will refuse to show it to you, and instead push a bunch of advertising, paid, or political BS.
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They use it because it's the default! (Score:5, Insightful)
The single biggest argument against using Linux on the desktop, the notebook or computer came with Windows.
The single biggest reason people don't use PGP, the email client didn't force them.
The single biggest reason anyone visited MSN, because it was the default home page.
If Google is sure that people use their service because they're the best, switch everything to DuckDuckGo and ProtonMail, then see what happens.
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The single biggest argument against using Linux on the desktop, the notebook or computer came with Windows.
Uhm, no. People don't use Linux on the Desktop because it is an environment for developers by developers. To make things work, it often requires tasks that are far over the heads of most people who use technology. Linux has been 2 years away from being ready for the desktop since 1999.
The single biggest reason people don't use PGP, the email client didn't force them.
Most don't use PGP because most don't consider their typical correspondence needing encryption. Those who do use it or something similar.
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Re: They use it because it's the default! (Score:2)
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Linux still has the same old problems it did 20 years ago on desktop.
You can't buy random hardware and expect it to just work. Some, maybe even most, software can be made to work, but often there are hoops to jump through. And when you need a solution to some issue, the Linux community is often hostile and the web is full of outdated or misleading information.
Linus Tech Tips tried switching to Linux last year, and as expected all those problems reared their ugly heads. Couldn't get his sound mixer to work,
Re:They use it because it's the default! (Score:5, Insightful)
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Just want to jump on the train and say that Xfce is absolutely great. It's very very fast and works well, I wonder why it's not the default on every distribution by this point.
Re: They use it because it's the default! (Score:2)
I just think that searching from the url field is weird.
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A freshly installed copy of Windows has a default browser installed that is not Chrome and a default search engine that is not Google.
People actually need to jump through some rather annoying hoops to set Google as their default search on PCs, and apparently they do it anyway.
Your assertion is factually false.
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delusional. keeping your head in the sand about desktop linux's shortcomings for the average pc user isn't helping matters.
Seriously? I'm a power user when it comes to the command line, but an average user when it comes to using a desktop and I can't think of anything I can do in a Windows desktop that I can't do in any Linux desktop. I'll give you that crap like Gnome fucked the desktop experience, aiming to become whatever it was aiming for and missing everything but the right mark (probably because they tried to treat the desktop as if it was a tablet), but other desktops like Xfce shine where Gnome failed. Perhaps you in
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Erm... (Score:3)
https://duckduckgo.com/
Google could have been good. They blew it.
They are the best but that's not what is important (Score:3)
Also, this is a total distraction. I don't care if google has most of the market in maps, search, videos or even free email. What matters is they own the market place for online advertising. If you want to either buy or sell advertising space on most of the internet Google is where you have to go.
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What do you mean, this is not important? That is the crux of the matter. Consumers choosing between various option and all coming to the same conclusion is absolutely not a monopoly.
I said it the other day, the word "monopoly" means something, this is quite obviously not one.
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Not abusing dominant position in search (Score:2)
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I've tried to use duckduckgo... at the end of the day google just gives better results most of the time.
That's been my experience too - I suspect the folks here who are recommending DDG aren't using very demanding search criteria. When I DO use DDG and then have to switch to Google, I search for 'google.ca' on DDG and then use their link, just to make a point. I'm sure nobody at DDG notices, but I do it just in case they do...
Re: They are the best but that's not what is impor (Score:2)
Don't forget that search engine optimization tricks eats into the real relevant results.
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I use Google but I run ad block to block all the crap.
Fine (Score:5, Insightful)
A simple way to prove this is to allow the jury access to three or four competitive search engines and see if the jury preferred browser is around google’s market share.
They WERE the best (Score:5, Informative)
Now, most of the results are crap
It's still possible to find useful results, it just seems to get harder every day
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Now, most of the results are crap. It's still possible to find useful results, it just seems to get harder every day
I'd say Google results are still far better than any of their competitors.
In my experience that's true. (Score:3)
When I accidentally end up on bing I notice the difference less through aesthetics and more through results that don't particularly help me.
But... I use bing to find stuff that "owners" have petitioned to have removed from google. Those owners often hit google first, and bing as an afterthought, if at all.
I just still prefer google. It works for me.
I'm lazy, I use google, but... (Score:2)
Google is fine for generic crap like finding the phone number/website of a nearby restaurant. That's just a third party database they slurped up.
But it no longer finds relevant hard to find information. For that I end up pulling multiple other search engines until I find it or decide it just may not be out there. I don't expect to ever find more obscure stuff on google anymore.
I do like that it will do simple math and data type conversions from the search bar. I tend to do a fair number of currency conv
Weak argument (Score:5, Interesting)
DuckDuckGo (Score:2)
I've been using this more and more. I just haven't gotten around to using it on Chrome. But on mobile it's the only search I use.
Google is best for specificity and relevance (Score:5, Interesting)
DDG: my default on personal devices. My reason is to keep myself from the inertial lock-in that inevitably arises from using a product so long that you can't distinguish your familiarity with their particular UI/style/menu from the actual quality of their product. So when you go try something else once, of course it feels clunky and confusing, because you've simply become accustomed to the way your current product works.
Bing: my default on several work-related devices. My reason is to keep myself aware of what Microsoft is up to and how integrations are supposed to work across their OS/apps/web products. That helps me advise enterprise folks when problem-management runs into things caused by Microsoft's attempts at an ecosystem.
In both arenas, I can usually find what I need. Usually. But that's because I'm very good at constructing search queries, anticipating false-positive terms to avoid, knowing when to use the search filters, and generally knowing how to feed the beast the keywords that help it perform the best.
But there are still several instances in an average week when I have given DDG/Bing 2-3 chances with a particular need and not gotten results which I know for sure must be out there. Then I switch to Google, copy any of the exact search strings I used in DDG/Bing, and my desired piece of information will be in the top 8 results.
From my observation, this happens most often when the information I'm looking for is more specific than usual. What's interesting is that, after a few years of doing this and evaluating the results I get from each service, the DDG failures and the Bing failures almost always fall into the same two types.
DDG failures make it seem like the information I want doesn't exist. If I were to personify it:
ME: I need to find information about snafflegratz.
DDG: Durrr... is it one of these 10 links about grafflesnatz?
ME: No. I am talking specifically about western snaffelgratz, the red one.
DDG: Durrr... then is it one of these 10 links about snifflegritz?
ME: No. Thanks for trying though. Go back to sleep. I'll ask Google.
Bing failures make it seem like I must be too dumb to recognize what I actually want. If I were to personify it:
ME: I need to find information about snafflegratz.
BING: Oh my heavens, yes! Snafflegratz! I am so good at finding things! Look at this splashy spread of different content formats with information about Snafflegratz!
ME: Yeah, the format variety is cool I guess, but half those links are just the same content scraped-and-reposted to different platforms. Plus I tried a few of those links, and that isn't the use of snafflegratz I want. I am talking specifically about western snafflegratz, the red one.
BING: Oh! I'm so excited to answer your question! Look at this updated splashy spread of different content formats with information about Snafflegratz!
ME: Yeahhh, half of those are the exact links you already gave me even though I explicitly used your own filters to try to exclude them. And the 2 new links which seemed promising were sources that turned out to circularly lead me right back to the same sources as your first results. I'll ask Google. But out of curiosity, has anyone ever suggested that you have manic episodes?
BING: Come onnnn big boy, I just KNOW these three sites are the search results you want! Click 'em! CLICK! THEMMMM!!!
It makes sense that Microsoft is going in hard for LLM searchbot experience, since Bing has already been trying to gaslight us into believing its hallucinations for several years.
People switch search engines? (Score:2)
People switch to Chrome because it's familiar and Google is the default search engine in Chrome.
Not being able to switch the search engine 100% in Windows is also an anti-trust violation.
In that case... (Score:5, Interesting)
Why does Google feel compelled to spend so much money on companies to keep them on Google as default search engine?
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To me the line here between "competitive" and "anti-competitive" seems difficult to judge when there are third parties involved making their own commercial choices.
Would it be a better world if Google couldn't pay Mozilla (or Opera, or whoever)? I'm not sure it would be, because without that revenue stream possibly only Google/Microsoft (and maybe Apple) browsers would be left.
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And they are not wrong, imho (Score:2)
Yes, of course they do. (Score:2)
Nope I do not prefer Google (Score:2)
Feel free to use my comment in the trial, lawyers.
It was better than Altavista (Score:2)
Not using google (Score:2)
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I just did that myself. Selected the text in his string, a popup gave me some choices, ibe was web search, which I know is attached to Google, boom. That answer.
I'll have to trust you guys that's the right answer.
Maybe (Score:2)
It used to be the best (Score:5, Insightful)
Google used to be a contender, but now the search is 70% ads and the company is a random funnel-to-graveyard of competing projects with mediocre to bad UIs. Their search has gotten simpler and simpler until it's useless to intelligent people now.
Remember when you could click in your Google results and see the cached version when the site was down? That was back when they were useful. Whoever suggested they take that out, instead of firing them, they did it, and it's been all downhill from there.
Advertising dollars and traditional Media (Score:3)
The real reason that Google has been suffering is that their business model relies on advertising. Traditional media relies upon advertising and they want their competitors stopped. Traditional media has strong ties to the political and judicial class so they're being rogered through this channel.
Compared to the monopoly practices of Microsoft and others, Google is really a minor transgressor. For instance Microsoft should have to separate it application business from it cloud business as they're using predatory practices to force users to use this platform. Essentially they're gluing the cloud to the operating system in a manner similar to the way that they forced their way into the browser market decades ago.
Look its part of the operating system.
True, or not, depending on your use case (Score:2)
I tried brave search real hard, but it did not work for the types of search I do. Technical stuff in particular.
Yes, google search has became dumber with the years, but is still miles ahead than the others in my use case (tecnical searches).
But, again, all depends on your use case, I hear Bing is very good finding Pr0n. And brave respects your privacy more, so, if you are a public person, or a valuable target, that is valuable to you...
Now, if you are using google search just because it is big, is a verb (
The problem isn't how dominant they are in search (Score:3)
This is why I don't particularly care about Google's Monopoly activities. I don't buy online advertisements and frankly the only people who should be buying them are a handful of brand managers trying to raise brand awareness. That's because online advertising is a terrible way to get customers. It's ridiculously ineffective and generally a waste of money. The only thing it's been shown to consistently affect is brand awareness and you need to be a fairly large company for that to matter.
This is not to say I don't want antitrust enforcement but I would be much happier to see it being levied against things like the grocery stores that are trying to merge in the Southwest or hell even Microsoft trying to buy out activation. And that's before we talk about things like all the integration and buyouts that have happened in our media since deregulation happened or the huge amount of consolidation in the healthcare industry. Florida for example has 80% of all healthcare facilities owned by one company.
they only got to be #1 (Score:2)
Because no one liked being nagged at every time they returned to the google.com search home page. Its as if Google didn't understand cookes, or 'no'.
What I can't stand (Score:2)
What I can't stand is how my search term can be used to power other sites. For example, search for "Your mama stinks" (or whatever tickles your fancy). You are greeted with search results such as "Visit Wal-mart for the best price on Your mam stinks", "The top ten reviews for Your mama stinks", "Get the best deal here on Your mama stinks", etc.., etc.. That shit needs to go now.
Wait. (Score:2)
We used to prefer Google (Score:2)
You know, back before Google declared itself the owner of the Internet.
Golly gee that payoff... (Score:2)
Golly gee that payoff to Mozilla to keep them as the default search engine has nothing to do with people preferring it to rivals.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news... [bloomberg.com]
The same argument with Standard Oil by Rockefeller "People prefer to use our oil to rivals..."
https://energyhistory.yale.edu... [yale.edu]
JoshK.
Have to Agree (Score:2)
Google products gone downhill (Score:2)
Monopoly advantage (Score:2)
"We're the best because more people use our search engine as standard", or "more people use our search engine because we have a couple decades of monopoly advantage, during which we have so firmly entrenched ourselves that noone else is able to properly get into that market, and if you are not one of the few global players with very deep pockets don't bother even dreaming about trying".
It's kind of similar to dictators who can argue that the people love them because they win "elections" with 109% of the vot
Re: Damn lies (Score:2)
I always search Amazon on Google
Re: Users don't pay for Google (Score:2)
Advertisers go where the eyeballs are. Why would they spend big on a site with a handful of users?
Re: yandex is better - NT (Score:3)
Depends on what you are searching for.
"How do I join the Russian army?"
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Well, you're an angry little fellow!