Australian Student Invents Affordable Electric Car Conversion Kit. (dezeen.com) 88
"Australian design student Alexander Burton has developed a prototype kit for cheaply converting petrol or diesel cars to hybrid electric," reports Dezeen magazine, "winning the country's national James Dyson Award in the process."
Titled REVR (Rapid Electric Vehicle Retrofits), the kit is meant to provide a cheaper, easier alternative to current electric car conversion services, which Burton estimates cost AU$50,000 (£26,400) on average and so are often reserved for valuable, classic vehicles.
Usually, the process would involve removing the internal combustion engine and all its associated hardware, like the gearbox and hydraulic brakes, to replace them with batteries and electric motors. With REVR, those components are left untouched. Instead, a flat, compact, power-dense axial flux motor would be mounted between the car's rear wheels and disc brakes, and a battery and controller system placed in the spare wheel well or boot. Some additional off-the-shelf systems — brake and steering boosters, as well as e-heating and air conditioning — would also be added under the hood. By taking this approach, Burton believes he'll be able to offer the product for around AU$5,000 (£2,640) and make it compatible with virtually any car...
With REVR, people should be able to get several more years of life out of their existing cars. The kit would transform the vehicle into a hybrid rather than a fully electric vehicle, with a small battery giving the car 100 kilometres of electric range before the driver has to switch to the internal combustion engine... Borrowing a trick from existing hybrid vehicles, the kit uses a sensor to detect the position of the accelerator pedal to control both acceleration and braking. That means no changes have to be made to the car's hydraulic braking system, which Burton says "you don't want to have to interrupt".
Thanks to Slashdot reader FrankOVD for sharing the news.
Usually, the process would involve removing the internal combustion engine and all its associated hardware, like the gearbox and hydraulic brakes, to replace them with batteries and electric motors. With REVR, those components are left untouched. Instead, a flat, compact, power-dense axial flux motor would be mounted between the car's rear wheels and disc brakes, and a battery and controller system placed in the spare wheel well or boot. Some additional off-the-shelf systems — brake and steering boosters, as well as e-heating and air conditioning — would also be added under the hood. By taking this approach, Burton believes he'll be able to offer the product for around AU$5,000 (£2,640) and make it compatible with virtually any car...
With REVR, people should be able to get several more years of life out of their existing cars. The kit would transform the vehicle into a hybrid rather than a fully electric vehicle, with a small battery giving the car 100 kilometres of electric range before the driver has to switch to the internal combustion engine... Borrowing a trick from existing hybrid vehicles, the kit uses a sensor to detect the position of the accelerator pedal to control both acceleration and braking. That means no changes have to be made to the car's hydraulic braking system, which Burton says "you don't want to have to interrupt".
Thanks to Slashdot reader FrankOVD for sharing the news.
Will this work with autos? (Score:4, Informative)
Auto gearboxes dont like being towed because they require fluid to be pumped around else gears start grinding pretty soon. This applies even when they're in neutral. So if this thing simply pushes the car along and doesnt power the gearbox fluid pump the driver will be in for a very expensive and unpleasant shock soon after.
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Auto gearboxes dont like being towed because they require fluid to be pumped around else gears start grinding pretty soon. This applies even when they're in neutral. So if this thing simply pushes the car along and doesnt power the gearbox fluid pump the driver will be in for a very expensive and unpleasant shock soon after.
In the vast majority of cars the brakes do not have the vaccuum reservoir to keep applying the hydraulic pressure and there would be no power brakes, manual brakes are quite hard to use and are more of an emergency measure. Looks like it’s more like a version of the biking assist motors where the electric motor is not powering the vehicle without the original engine. Downside is it does not make the car more reliable, up side is increased horsepower and less load on the engine presumably making it
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Auto gearboxes dont like being towed because they require fluid to be pumped around else gears start grinding pretty soon.
I think that's only true of automatic transmissions. (Manuals have the gears and shafts immersed in oil. Automatics require the oil to be pumped, to provide power for the logic and actuators to lubricate some shafts/beraings that require oil injection because they aren't immersed, and to circulate it through an external radiator and/or heat exchanger in the engine coolant radiator (whi
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I think that's only true of automatic transmissions. (Manuals have the gears and shafts immersed in oil.
The problem is when a manual is in neutral, the lower gear shaft does not spin and bring oil up but the top gear shaft that’s not engaging is still attached to the spinning drivetrain so it results in a lack of lubrication issue.
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I think that's only true of automatic transmissions. (Manuals have the gears and shafts immersed in oil.
The problem is when a manual is in neutral, the lower gear shaft does not spin and bring oil up but the top gear shaft thatâ(TM)s not engaging is still attached to the spinning drivetrain so it results in a lack of lubrication issue.
OK, I see how that would be a problem. (I thought they had both (sets of) shafts immersed and/or had a "gear" that was always turning and at least partially immersed,
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Neutral coasting down a hill means you have less control, and much more brake wear, as well as increased wear on the throwout bearing, which isn't a cheap thing to replace. Even without potential problems from lubrication issues, it's a bad idea.
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Also you'd need to have (or add if not present) the oil cooler radiator on either type of auto transmission car - as with a "dingy-capable" vehicle (one that can be towed behind an RV with all wheels rolling and doesn't accomplish this using wheel-locking hubs.)
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Auto gearboxes dont like being towed
I think that's only true of automatic transmissions.
Yes that's what he just said. "Autos" and "auto gearboxes" means automatic transmissions, unless you are American, where it is short for "automobile" :-) A translation problem.
Also here, gas means gas, usually propane, not gas-oline.
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>So this conversion looks like it would work on a manual or a rear-pump auto transmission, but would also need an extra electric tranny fluid pump on a front-pump-only automatic transmission.
Or any 4WD vehicle. Which Aus has a lot of.
Just put the transfer case in neutral like you were going to be towing it, then neither set of axles would be connected to the transmission at all. Doesn't matter what transmission you have then.
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"Or any 4WD vehicle. Which Aus has a lot of."
Why do they need 4WD in Aus? They don't have winter down there with snow and ice on the roads.
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"Or any 4WD vehicle. Which Aus has a lot of."
Why do they need 4WD in Aus? They don't have winter down there with snow and ice on the roads.
First which part of Australia are you talking about ?
It is a Continent about the size of the United States excluding Alaska.
In the Southern Highlands of Victoria and NSW there is snow during Winter.
On the Coasts of QLD and WA we have Mud lots of Mud think Florida but instead of Alligators you have Crocodiles and in The Outback you have Sand lots of Sand think Utah better it never seems to end.
Basically anywhere outside of the City's you want a 4WD.
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Hey man, we got Crocs in Florida too. American and Saltwater (same as AUS) varieties. Hell we even got pythons and capybaras. If Chupacabras are real, they in Florida too.
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Why do they need 4WD in Aus? They don't have winter down there with snow and ice on the roads.
Tell us you know nothing about vehicles, driving, or Australia without telling us.
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I think that's only true of automatic transmissions.
Nope.
Manuals have the gears and shafts immersed in oil.
Nope. The oil level does not fully immerse the internals. The fill plug is less than halfway up the housing, and you fill until fluid runs out the fill plug hole. e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
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For EV conversions with a manual gearbox, you usually just put it into one gear and leave it there. Usually 2nd or 3rd gear, you basically need to be able to get up to high enough RPM to reach motorway speeds, without exceeding the limit of the rest of the drivetrain.
Alternatively you can replace the gearbox with a fixed reduction gear, but obviously that costs more.
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So if this thing simply pushes the car along and doesnt power the gearbox fluid pump
It literally says this car is hybrid conversion kit in the first sentence. Did you not read anything other than headline, or do you not understand what a hybrid electric vehicle is?
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Congratulations on totally missing the fucking point.
3 Grand? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Yes, same here. Methinks "design" student is not an engineer. Sometimes you can make engineering like this cheaper by a factor of 1.5 or even 2. But 10x? That is just fantasy. If it sound too good to be true, it basically always is.
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believe you could make four Motors capable of powering a car at a reasonable speed
Two motors. They have to be tied into the frame, so you can't readily mount them on the wheels that steer.
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Especially a battery that claims 100 km of range.
This is obviously bogus.
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Okay, it's a stretch for me to believe you could make four Motors capable of powering a car at a reasonable speed for that kind of price.
Define reasonable speed. We were tearing down the German autobahn at 190km/h in a car that had tiny 3 cylinder engine with only 65horsepower. You don't need that kind of speed.
You definitely can get 50kW motors for $3k. Easily, from most manufacturers. But this isn't a 50kW motor. It's not intended to turn the car into a standalone EV, it's intended to turn it into a hybrid. Most hybrid motors are a small fraction of that power output often only 10kW / wheel. Induction motors for that can be had for $1k eve
Just no. (Score:3)
current electric car conversion services, which Burton estimates cost AU$50,000 (£26,400) on average and so are often reserved for valuable, classic vehicles.
If you have a valuable or "classic" car the last thing you are going to want to do is butcher it into a half assed DIY BEV.
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Re:Just no. (Score:4, Insightful)
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The high-end conversions might be an exception to that:
The latest run of cars will see donor DB6s stripped down and given a bare-metal restoration with the body 3D scanned and any imperfections hand-beaten out. The classic Touring lines are largely left alone, and even the leather-trimmed 2+2 interior retains its 1960s ambience, save for the addition of air conditioning, a modern infotainment system and full wi-fi connectivity.
Lunaz indicated that its electrified DB6 would cost more than $1 million (£733,000) before taxes. It says, too, that it can produce electrified versions of Aston Martin DB4 and DB5 cars on request, which would likely cost even more than the DB6.
First deliveries of customer DB6s are expected in mid-to-late 2023.
https://www.driving.co.uk/news... [driving.co.uk]
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The high-end conversions might be an exception to that
Fair enough. When you get into that extremely rarified air all bets are off. In any case it's not really an Aston Martin anymore though, just like Tesla roadsters are not Lotus Elises.
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Actually my comment was meant to apply to the $50K conversions as well. People with valuable classic cars who want an EV can generally just buy one.
You seem to be unaware that very many classic cars, including valuable ones very much do get EV conversions. Sure not museum collectors items, but the kind of classic / vintage car that people actually do want to drive around are quite popular for high end EV retrofits due to a) not being able to get the parts for repair, often necessitating aftermarket engine modifications anyway and thus making the car unsuitable as a museum piece, and b) facing an uphill regulation battle for emissions.
I know someone wit
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a) not being able to get the parts for repair, often necessitating aftermarket engine modifications anyway
You will still need to be able to get parts for suspension, brakes, steering, interior controls, etc. Around here if you can't get engine parts the going solution is to drop in a small block Chevy. But you would not do that to anything valuable either.
b) facing an uphill regulation battle for emissions.
Must be a European thing.
Someone in my local BMW club has an 80s vintage 528i that he has converted to electric. Neither that nor the Citroen are what I would consider classic. If you did it to something like a Porsche 911 I would consider it more of a c
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>If you did it to something like a Porsche 911 I would consider it more of a crime against good taste.
stay away from auctions. You would cry.
I got sent to drive a '57 Chevy Bel Aire, with fuel injection, no less..
Oh, it was beautifully and flawlessly painted.
And under the hood was a *I#*@^ LS-3 mated to a 700R4 (which the engine could probably rip from the mounts!).
The number of cars that have been desecrated that way is downright heartbreaking.
I'm no purist, and have no problem with things like afterma
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This says conversions are usually reserved for classic/etc cars because they're the only ones worth doing it for. This half assed ones would be for more normal vehicles.
You'd have to be extremely rich and not give a flying fuck about preserving or the value of a car like that in order to do this. There's a reason why cars with the original numbers matching engine are worth more than one with a replaced engine. Chopping it up and turning it into an EV would completely ruin a classic cars value. At that point, just get a kit car and make it an EV from the ground up. Or would adding braille to the forehead of the Mona Lisa make it better so the blind can enjoy it too?
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There are lots of classic cars out there that aren't particularly valuable. I had a 1966 Pontiac Tempest in the 1990s. Engine had been swapped, transmission had been swapped, body and interior were in "OK" shape, but nothing to get excited about.
Someone who knew what they were doing could have turned that into a decent classic car, but it would never be "valuable" in the sense that you are using. If I still had it today, I'd probably consider doing a DIY conversion by swapping the engine with an electric
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Classic and valuable are not mutually exclusive. Classic cars are 20 years and older so a 2001 Hyundai is now a classic.
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Classic cars are 20 years and older so a 2001 Hyundai is now a classic.
We clearly have different definitions of classic, I don't consider age the sole attribute. It's actually kind of scary to think about it that way - all those classic cars I used to own LOL.
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a 2001 Hyundai is now a classic
Nope. It's just vintage. Classics have something special going for them. A 1998 240SX is a classic, a 2001 Hyundai is just an old piece of shit.
Re: Just no. (Score:2)
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Personally I couldn't give a damn if classic has an ICE, it's the body and interior that I like, not the filthy loud engine.
So you are not an enthusiast. Got it.
IMHO they should even ban older cars from the road, with the real exception for some special day, but not for commute.
That would get you instantly unelected around here, in the highly unlikely event you ever got elected in the first place.
Re: Just no. (Score:2)
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In US dollars ... (Score:3)
Burton believes he'll be able to offer the product for around AU$5,000 (£2,640)
Google says that's $3,200 USD at today's exchange rate.
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Yes, our dollar has been falling in value since July.
If any of you were thinking of a summer vacation in January, come visit!
I used to wonder why all EV's weren't like this (Score:4, Interesting)
I used to wonder why EV's aren't made with 4 separate motors at the wheel hubs. It seemed like a natural to me.
Apparently there are issues with using them, see: https://evcentral.com.au/why-d... [evcentral.com.au]
Re:I used to wonder why all EV's weren't like this (Score:4, Informative)
Because hub motors involve a lot of compromises to efficiency, to the point that 1-2 bigger motors going through a single speed transmission is still cheaper and more efficient.
Basically, with a hub motor you're making the "shaft" a lot larger than ideal, and "natural" motor rotation speeds are also a lot higher than what you want at the wheel. Fixing this costs money and weight.
And yes, they do take extreme beatings, much more than a motor mounted to the frame.
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Because hub motors involve a lot of compromises to efficiency, to the point that 1-2 bigger motors going through a single speed transmission is still cheaper and more efficient.
Basically, with a hub motor you're making the "shaft" a lot larger than ideal, and "natural" motor rotation speeds are also a lot higher than what you want at the wheel. Fixing this costs money and weight.
And yes, they do take extreme beatings, much more than a motor mounted to the frame.
The article linked by GP includes two other important considerations: finding a place for the brakes because friction braking is still required, and dealing with all that extra unsprung mass in the wheels.
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Back in the early 2000s a Japanese company was building prototypes using one motor per wheel. The head engineer said once he started doing research he found Ferdinand Porsche had patents and drawings for this design dating back to the 1930s. Rivian trucks have one motor per wheel.
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Rivian trucks have one motor per wheel.
As an available option. One per axle is the baseline configuration. Either way, the motors are not mounted in the wheel hubs.
I'll know when Rivan is ready for the big time [wikipedia.org] when they offer a 6x6 with portal axles.
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> Rivian trucks have one motor per wheel.
Rivian's motors are still inboard, using a reduction gear and driveshaft to put the power to the wheel.
These are hub motors; the motor is put at/inside the wheel and drives it directly. The major difference is now the motor becomes "unsprung mass" because it's on the wheel side, rather than on the body side, of the suspension. This is a bigger detriment to safety and performance than most people realize.
=Smidge=
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It can be worked around, though. One way is to attach the brake rotor to the wheel instead of the hub. That way you don't need the hat. You also can use a grooved instead of drilled and/or ventilated disc, because a> you've got the motors for regen braking and b> the rotor has a much larger diameter. The final weight of the wheel end is within a couple of pounds of where you started.
Of course you could instead use this technology to reduce the weight of the wheel end, but here's what I've got to say a
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Buy the kit, keep the battery, toss the rest (Score:3)
To get 100km electric range, you need at least a 15kWh battery pack (~divide by 6, and remember this is going in a car that still has the weight of the engine and normal tires)
A 15kWh home battery backup costs about AUD$15000.
If he's selling them for AUD$5000, it's worth buying them for the batteries and the charging circuit. Sell the rest of the parts on eBay, and use that to buy a decent inverter. Poof! Whole home battery backup at a third of the price.
Unless, of course, he can't actually sell them that cheaply...
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A 15kWh home battery backup also includes the charging system, inverter, and everything else. A quick google shows that I can get a 1.2kWh lithium-ion battery for $280. $233/kWh. 15kWh would thus cost $3,500, or $5,566 AUD. I can get a 5kW powerwall for $1,690, x 3 = $5070. I don't think that you're going to be pulling the batteries to sell them at those prices.
That said, the summary is wrong. Reading the ACTUAL article, he proposes a FIVE kWh battery, saying that they can stuff "3 times that into the
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Can you provide a link for that $280 1.2kw battery? I'd like to buy one.
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https://www.amazon.com/dp/B084... [amazon.com]
LiTime 12V 100Ah LiFePO4 Battery Built-in 100A BMS, Up to 15000 Cycles, Perfect for RV, Marine, Home Energy Storage
$279.99, $40 coupon available now.
12V@100Ah = 1200 Wh = 1.2 kWh
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To get 100km electric range
This is not an EV, it's a HEV. You don't need 100km electric range.
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To get 100km electric range
This is not an EV, it's a HEV. You don't need 100km electric range.
I'm quoting the specs from TFA: "with a small battery giving the car 100 kilometres of electric range".
I agree, a hybrid doesn't *need* 100km of electric range, particularly when most round-trips are less than half of that. But that's what they claim to be selling.
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A Wrangler 4xe uses a 17kWh pack to get 22 miles, or ~30 km range. Obviously the lowest of the current PHEVs out there, but probably representative of a car converted to electric PHEV usage. Wranglers get ~20mpg, most cars don't get more than ~40 mpg, so I would ballpark realistic range for a 15kWh pack at below 60 km. Converting an older car with average aero drag, average drivetrain drag (even if it is only the wheels & maybe axles) and average tires mean it is more likely to be under 40 km, on a g
Unsprung weight and other issues (Score:1, Informative)
This looks like a lot of added "un-sprung weight", ie, weight directly against the road not carried by struts. It's generally bad for the handling of a vehicle. Why are super-light alloy wheels a thing? That's why.
Then of course there's the power steering, power brakes, anti-lock brakes, etc. You can drive a car without these but it's a handful to say the least, and probably not permitted in many areas. I used to roll my mustang with the engine off down a gravel road in the woods once in a while. It w
My car doesn't have disc brakes for the rear wheel (Score:2)
And it weighs how much (Score:3)
Seriously, you remove almost nothing?
So you're converting a 3500 lb car into a 5-6000 lb car?
You understand why this is a Bad Idea right?
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Why would you figure the system would weigh 1500 pounds?
The article mentions he planned on 5kWh(the summary on slashdot is wrong), 2hich would be around 200 pounds. Even 15kWh would just only be around 600.
That shouldn't be enough to require much adjustment. Though maybe stronger springs if you really want.
Re: And it weighs how much (Score:2)
5kWh is not going to get you very far.
I'm worried about those flux motors. If those flux capacitors blow we could all be sucked into a worm hole.
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5kWh is not going to get you very far.
He wasn't planning on it getting you far. It's enough to cover most of the commutes in his country, and it creates a hybrid - if you go further than the gas engine can pick up the slack.
That means that most of the battery pack would be used every trip, with is more efficient with lithium usage than an EV that uses like 10% of it's battery power on the average trip.
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So it weighs as much as a typical F150 then. https://media.ford.com/content... [ford.com]
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The F150 has enough suspension to deal with that load, though.
Your average econobox has stamped suspension members, you will need entirely new ones (either stamped from heavier material, or totally redesigned) in order to handle that much more weight gracefully.
Even the stock wheels are unsuitable for that much more weight.
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So you're converting a 3500 lb car into a 5-6000 lb car?
No they aren't.
You understand why this is a Bad Idea right?
Everyone understands you don't know what this product is or what it does, based solely on what you think it weighs.
Nope (Score:2)
It can't be done with good range.
I think there's room for a rear hub motor parallel hybrid kit, though. That would allow electrifying a typical mass market FWD car in a way that doesn't require messing with the rest of the car. You tap into its systems only so that you can read its sensors. That would require relatively little battery to provide a significant improvement, and is more realistic than lugging around the gasoline engine and just not using it which is impractical for lots of reasons which are al
Its clear he hasn't actually priced this out (Score:3)
The article claims "the design is in its early stages" (and he hasn't even built a working prototype) so there is no way he can know what it will actually cost to make this.
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Of course you can. Estimating cost is part of the up front design process. You literally design a product to a cost, not pop out a prototype and figure out the cost afterwards. And while they may not have a fully working prototype they definitely have manufactured the parts already and thus have an idea of their cost.
None of this is new. It's not using some previously undiscovered metal, nor some yet unproven manufacturing technology. The cost is based on the design, time, and manufacture, all which can be
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The article mentions a "5 kWh battery" and then "3 times that". Can you get a suitable 15kWh battery (that isn't some kind of dodgy piece of junk from AliExpress or something) at that price point and still have room for the motors, control hardware, heating/air-con and other bits?
If this guy really can produce a kit that does what he claims it will at the price he claims it will, that's great. But I am skeptical.
Ehm... (Score:2)
He is a design student, nothing to do with real engineering. It is just a fantasy design, move along...
A supplement more than a conversion (Score:2)
The kit adds electric motors to the wheels (and batteries etc.) so you could transform a ICE car into a hybrid one.
I am not sure about the added drag to the transmission due to the electrical motors, 5hough.
No regen braking? (Score:2)
The article a tad skimpy on details, but while this is a step forward, without regen braking it's kinda half assed, all that power being lost to friction heat is non starter.
This could be a good business idea actually (Score:2)
There's been talks about converting ICE cars to EV cars for the longest time, and some people around the world have done this, especially to veteran cars just for the looks and their sheer interest in preserving the look, feel and style of those old cars without the inconveniences and maintenance needed for those old ICE cars.
But there's a couple of caveats to be beware of:
1) New electrical cars are almost over-engineered, basically for safety. The Lithium ion batteries (especially LifePo4 batteries) are ki
£2640 (Score:2)
My dealer charges £100 just to plug in his diagnostics gizmo, let alone do anything. Change a wheel bearing? - £1000. Replace the rear differential oil seal - £1000. Change the engine oil cooler - £2000.
Genius solution for legacy (Score:2)
Active wheel motors could save legacy autos but only a few legacy auto mfgrs. Wheel motors aren’t perfect but it might be the right solution, right now.
The constraint is developing them fast enough to actually have an impact. FORD, GM, et. al. are broke by 2026 at the current rate that Tesla are progressing. By 2026, so completely integrated and automated will be BEV, Teslas might subsume the very ideal of conventional automobiles. The gap may widen and become unbridgeable for legacy to ever compete w
Two problems with this (Score:1)
Vehicles have sprung weight and unsprung weight. Sprung weight is weight which is insulated from the road by the springs and other suspension elements. Your engine and vehicle body are part of the sprung weight. Your wheels and brakes are part of the unsprung weight (no springs isolating them from the road).
For a smooth ride, you want your ratio of sprung : un