How Electric Cars are Already Upending America (msn.com) 472
"Electric cars are already upending America," argues a new article in the Atlantic, citing booming sales and new models that are "finally starting to push us into the post-gas age."
Americans are on track to buy a record 1.44 million of them in 2023, according to a forecast by BloombergNEF, about the same number sold from 2016 to 2021 total. "This was the year that EVs went from experiments, or technological demonstrations, and became mature vehicles," Gil Tal, the director of the Electric Vehicle Research Center at UC Davis, told me.... Nearly 40 new EVs have debuted since the start of 2022, and they are far more advanced than their ancestors. For $40,000, the Hyundai Ioniq 6, released this year, can get you 360 miles on a single charge; in 2018, for only a slightly lower cost, a Nissan Leaf couldn't go half that distance....
All of these EVs are genuinely great for the planet, spewing zero carbon from their tailpipes, but that's only a small part of what makes them different. In the EV age, cars are no longer just cars. They are computers... The million-plus new EVs on the road are ushering in a fundamental, maybe existential, change in how to even think about cars — no longer as machines, but as gadgets that plug in and charge like all the others in our life. The wonderful things about computers are coming to cars, and so are the terrible ones: apps that crash. Subscription hell. Cyberattacks... If cars are gadgets now, then carmakers are also now tech companies. An industry that has spent a century perfecting the internal combustion engine must now manufacture lithium-ion batteries and write the code to govern them. Imagine if a dentist had to pivot from filling cavities to performing open-heart surgery, and that's roughly what's going on here.
"The transition to EVs is completely changing everything," Loren McDonald, an EV consultant, told me. "It's changing the people that automotive companies have to hire and their skills. It's changing their suppliers, their factories, how they assemble and build them. And lots of automakers are struggling with that...." Job cuts are already happening, and more may come — even after the massive autoworker strike this year that largely hinged on electrification. Such a big financial investment is needed to electrify the car industry that from July to September, Ford lost $60,000 for every EV it sold. Or peel back one more onion layer to car dealerships: Tesla, Rivian, and other EV companies are selling directly to consumers, cutting them out. EVs also require little service compared with gas vehicles, a reality that has upset many dealers, who could lose their biggest source of profit.
None of this is the future. It is happening right now.
All of these EVs are genuinely great for the planet, spewing zero carbon from their tailpipes, but that's only a small part of what makes them different. In the EV age, cars are no longer just cars. They are computers... The million-plus new EVs on the road are ushering in a fundamental, maybe existential, change in how to even think about cars — no longer as machines, but as gadgets that plug in and charge like all the others in our life. The wonderful things about computers are coming to cars, and so are the terrible ones: apps that crash. Subscription hell. Cyberattacks... If cars are gadgets now, then carmakers are also now tech companies. An industry that has spent a century perfecting the internal combustion engine must now manufacture lithium-ion batteries and write the code to govern them. Imagine if a dentist had to pivot from filling cavities to performing open-heart surgery, and that's roughly what's going on here.
"The transition to EVs is completely changing everything," Loren McDonald, an EV consultant, told me. "It's changing the people that automotive companies have to hire and their skills. It's changing their suppliers, their factories, how they assemble and build them. And lots of automakers are struggling with that...." Job cuts are already happening, and more may come — even after the massive autoworker strike this year that largely hinged on electrification. Such a big financial investment is needed to electrify the car industry that from July to September, Ford lost $60,000 for every EV it sold. Or peel back one more onion layer to car dealerships: Tesla, Rivian, and other EV companies are selling directly to consumers, cutting them out. EVs also require little service compared with gas vehicles, a reality that has upset many dealers, who could lose their biggest source of profit.
None of this is the future. It is happening right now.
Hopefully the end of Hybrid too. (Score:5, Insightful)
Or peel back one more onion layer to car dealerships: Tesla, Rivian, and other EV companies are selling directly to consumers, cutting them out. EVs also require little service compared with gas vehicles, a reality that has upset many dealers, who could lose their biggest source of profit.
I've viewed the Hybrid car as the incumbent manufacturers way of paying lip service to the environmental issues of ICE vehicles while keeping the dealerships happy.
More than happy; Electric + ICE = more complexity than just ICE and thus more potential for something breaking and/or needing servicing. The dealers wet dream.
Re: Hopefully the end of Hybrid too. (Score:2)
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Intuitively, yes. But the Prius does not seem to bear that out.
Re:Hopefully the end of Hybrid too. (Score:5, Interesting)
Well, Hybrid vehicles are by far the most likely to catch fire, so there's that I guess?
https://www.autoinsuranceez.co... [autoinsuranceez.com]
Gasoline: 1530 per 100,000
Electric: 25 per 100,000
Hybrid: 3475 per 100,000
=Smidge=
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You are missing an important point, that they are a very needed middle step. Hybrids (and more specifically plug in hybrids) are the way to get normal people to participate until there are enough charging stations. I line in the midwest and am single, so I have only 1 car. This means if I want to make a roadtrip, an electric vehicle is going to be tough for me because I would have to plan around charging stations, which is tough. So instead I bought a Prius Prime. It lets me run one electric for 75% of my d
Re: Hopefully the end of Hybrid too. (Score:5, Insightful)
Two years ago when my wife and I bought a Kia EV I'd have agreed with you; I was driving a Prius daily and she drove the Kia. Road trips did take some planning with the Kia, longest being about 300 miles one way.
When we got our Tesla to replace the Prius, my opinion changed. The key factor was the supercharger network. Much faster than DC fast charging and far more reliable, it flipped my opinion on EV road tripping.
Tesla did the groundwork the right way; not only did it build the cars but it alap built out the infrastructure needed to keep them on the road. That's the systems engineering approach and in my opinion was critical to Tesla's successful EV launch and production.
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It's odd that other manufacturers don't seem to have build charging networks in the US. In Europe we have Ionity which is most of the big German and several other manufacturers. There are lots of independents, and even the old legacy energy providers like Shell. Everyone wants to get a stake in the ground, and many places have a selection of chargers from different companies. Oh, and Tesla has opened up to all cars now, and since the EU forced them to install CCS connectors that means most people can use th
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Gosh, are people really out there who still believe that marginal grid capacity comes in the form of 100% coal or natgas? Fossil arguments from fossil enthusiasts.
Re:Hopefully the end of Hybrid too. (Score:5, Insightful)
most EV's are running 100% on fossil fuel, usually coal
Even if an EV is charged from 100% coal it has 15% better cradle to grave emissions than an ICEV. You think you had a mic drop there but all you did was prove that you don't know shit and haven't done your homework.
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I actually would go with a hybrid if the ICE was ONLY used as a range extender...
I've driven a Mazda hybrid and the experience of juggling electric and gas engine was abysmal.
A battery that gets me 100 to 150 km, can be recharged from a wall socket would do the trick for most days.
It would quick charge quite quickly, even if you don't have access to superchargers and need to rely to the clusterfuck that is everything else... and if all else fails and you need to go on a long trip, turn on the range extender
Re:Hopefully the end of Hybrid too. (Score:5, Informative)
Nope, not matter how slice it total lifetime emissions for an EV including mining, refining, transport, construction, fueling you still end up with less CO2 over the lifetime even on a fossil grid.
If you are talking about energy density, you should look up how much thermal efficiency an ICE engine actually gets from that gallon of gas, you might be surprised.
We Need To Measure Total Lifecycle Emissions For Cars – But EVs Still Win [forbes.com]
You are correct about hybrids though, they're a fine fit today for a lot people but EVs are going to get a lot more affordable by the time the decade is out. We're barely past the start line and people are already calling the race finished.
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But the extra energy density of gasoline doesn't help very much. The median ICE car has a range of 400 miles, whereas a typical BEV now gets 300 miles. So for the vast amounts of extra externalities -- the carbon, the tailpipe pollutants, the noise, the wars, etc -- the net gain is about one third more range.
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I don’t really care about the green aspect (Score:5, Interesting)
There is no maintenance schedule. Unlike my 2016 f-150 that I worry about the timing chain it’s not a Rube Goldberg machine with hundreds of delicate moving parts. It’s basically only the cabin air filter for comfort and check to make sure nothing looks off. I go days without using the brakes because the regen has so much torque, one petal is just like driving my manual WRX, engine braking has almost the exact feel except manual transmission engine braking is gentler and you’ll stall if you stop. Electric motors are getting even more powerful and compact, they have superior performance and maintenance schedules and overall make for superior driving experience. Because I already have machine tools and a welder in my garage, I didn’t even need to rewire for up to 9.6kW charging which turned out to be fast enough it’s not a problem at all. In fact, electricity is about 2.5-3x cheaper per mile depending on gas prices so that’s a nice bonus.
The V2L is also great, for the first time in almost two decades we lost power for just over 48 hours and it was enough to supply my three refrigerators, chest freezer, some lights, and everything else I needed and it only dropped the battery 35%. No need for a generator or fuel when you have a giant ass battery able to source more power than eight 200A house service panels can continuously take fully maxed out. If only the V2L were significantly higher I would definitely buy that as an upgrade.
Re: I don’t really care about the green aspe (Score:5, Funny)
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Category 1 will sort itself out as the car models mature.
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"One petal" driving, and one pedal driving as well, is a fraud perpetrated on the public by Tesla because they don't know how to blend braking successfully. Don't forget, Tesla couldn't figure out how to do regen through the brake pedal, just like they couldn't figure out how to make a two-speed transmission. Tesla's idea of a BEV is defined as much by what they are incapable of as it is by the juvenile, retrograde thinking of their entitled CEO. The best Tesla is NO Tesla, Elon Musk says so.
One pedal dr
Re:I don’t really care about the green aspec (Score:5, Informative)
it is doubtful they are all that "green" anyway.
They are. This is well-established. [qz.com]
Nobody seems to want to talk about all the materials going into them.
On the contrary, conservatives can't seem to shut up about them!
No one honest is talking about that because it's long-debunked nonsense. [qz.com]
I want one
No, you don't.
nobody makes a model I want yet.
Like I said, you don't actually want one. You just want to look credible while you spread your bullshit around.
Re:I don’t really care about the green aspec (Score:5, Insightful)
>>I want one
>No, you don't.
What arrogance! Yes, I do, I have been ready for years.
You are so blinded by your point of view that you give NOBODY any benefit of the doubt and want to make everything political. Well, good job.
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>"Okay but what's holding you back then? Like, is it affordability in general? Longish list of specific requirements and not willing to budge on any of them? Range still an issue?"
See, reasonable questions from a reasonable poster.
Range is not an issue for me at all. Affordability is one big issue. I will spend a lot on a car, but also keep it for 12 to 15 years. My current G37S is 14 years old, for example, and has only 40K miles. That is my target- something like a G37S or Q50RS. Excellent style,
Whatever (Score:4, Insightful)
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Low end BEVs are even simpler than fossil cars.
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Low end BEVs are even simpler than fossil cars.
Special. I totally want a low end BEV then LOL.
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Well it's that or a low end fossil, if you insist on it being simple.
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Rolling computers (Score:4, Insightful)
Rolling computers, that's a problem for me and perhaps others. I know, I know, cars have had computers for a while now to control the electronic ignition, etc. But I simply don't want a connected to the mother ship rolling cell phone in disguise. I want a car. Gauges are fine. Knobs are good. Buttons on the radio, hells yes. Giant iPads, no thanks. Games while I drive (or even scarier while the car drives itself)? WTF? Self driving, no thanks, I can drive just fine. 0 to 60 in less than 5 seconds? Why? I already have a cell phone that can perform GPS for me, so no screen of any sort is needed. I want a basic EV that gets me from point A to B and doesn't cost half the price of my house in the process. A Tesla is the opposite of what I want in an EV as far as functionality and price goes.
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What is the truth? (Score:4, Insightful)
Are EV sales growing or slowing?
The summary says, "Americans are on track to buy a record 1.44 million of them in 2023, according to a forecast by BloombergNEF, about the same number sold from 2016 to 2021 total." This suggests that the historical curve fit can be extrapolated into the future.
However, numerous recent news stories suggest the exact opposite, that EV sales are already slowing and will continue to slow:
Europe Car Sales Growth Slowing; German EV Subsidy End To Hit Profits [forbes.com]
Automakers Delay Electric Vehicle Spending as Demand Slows [nytimes.com]
Why dealers say EV sales have slowed [cnbc.com]
EV Sales Are in a Slump — Why Aren’t More Car Buyers Going Electric? [money.com]
Re:What is the truth? (Score:4, Insightful)
Used ICE cars are getting ever-more expensive because the economy sucks and fewer people have the money for a new car. Of those that have the money for a new car, fewer have the money for an EV that would replace the ICE that meets their basic requirements.
People buy cars because they need them to work or to shop, etc. They'll buy what they have to so long as they have to, but as we get closer to the financial limit the market overall will suffer, not just EVs.
The only cure for this is a drastic drop in battery prices so EVs are far more competitive.
Re:What is the truth? (Score:4, Insightful)
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Waiting.... (Score:2)
>"Nearly 40 new EVs have debuted since the start of 2022, and they are far more advanced than their ancestors."
And not a single one meets what I want. Which is a 4-door *car*, not a truck, not an SUV, not a hybrid, not an ultra-compact, that is on-par with a luxury Japanese sport sedan. No self-driving. No TV-on-a-stick. No stupid UFO design. Real dashboard (in FRONT of the driver), real controls, and nice silver paint (not that plastic-looking non-metalic stuff).
Still waiting...
>"cars are no lon
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Still waiting...
Just have to point out that it looks like the market in general is moving away from you, so you might be waiting for a while. It's probably getting harder for you to get an ICE car that meets those requirements.
Re: Waiting.... (Score:2)
US new vehicle sales Nov 2023 alone were 1.2 mil (Score:3)
They sold 1.44 million EV's in 2023 by giving large government kickbacks to consumers. If I bought one between the feds and the state they would gift me $11,500.
That's really nice of all the taxpayers. Thanks guys. But this is hardly "upending America" when there were 1.2 million US new vehicle sales in November alone.
https://www.reuters.com/busine... [reuters.com]
Despite the headline the article itself paints a less glowing picture: "Most cars you see are a decade old; for all these EV sales, just 1 percent of cars on the road are all-electric. Even if we hit President Joe Biden’s EV target of 50 percent of sales by 2030, the sheer life span of cars will mean that gas vehicles will still greatly outnumber electric ones by then. Gas stations are not closing. Parking garages are not buckling under the weight of EVs and their hefty batteries. Electric cars remain too expensive, and they are limited by janky public chargers that are too slow, assuming they work at all. If you don’t have a house where you can install your own plug, EVs are still mostly just unrealistic."
lollll (Score:2)
Just wait til these non-Tesla owners find out how shitty public chargers are. If they work at all, they usually charge well below their rated speed. In populated areas you may be waiting in "line" for the one charger that works - except the driver of that car is in the shopping mall or whatever, nowhere near their car when it's done charging. Once they move, the cars that have been waiting to charge now have to jockey for position, because there's no system accounting for who got their first.
Yeah, yeah, you
1.44M is not "upending" America (Score:2)
I like the idea of EVs, but they aren't there yet. We've just put a slightly better veneer on short-distance city cars. I think the American buyer is waking up to that. Range anxiety still exists because of unreliable charging stations. Long-distance travel becomes inconvenient because of long charging times. Battery performance is degraded in colder climates. EVs aren't well-suited for commercial use or towing. EVs are engineered for obsolescence after their batteries are end-of-life unless you pay $20K -
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End of oil = new Industrial Revolution. (Score:4, Insightful)
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Assuredly wrong on both counts. The second point is the more important one: The same companies that control the energy supply chain of the world today can afford, and are spending money on, lots of researchers and engineers (and M&A activities) to make sure those same companies continue to own the energy supply chain of the future, regardless of whether it's solar, hydrogen, nuclear or ethically sourced unicorn manure. Sure, in the meantime they will continue to hype their _existing_ tech because there'
In Norway, the change has already happened (Score:5, Interesting)
We've been at 80-90% EVs sold for a year or two now, in the morning traffic around Oslo a majority of all cars are EVs.
Yes, this has reduced the profits of many of the traditional car makers, particularly those like Toyota who has been forced (kicking and screaming) into the EV age, but it is very obvious that the air in Oslo has never (at least since the middle ages) been as clean as it is now.
There are issues with EVs, mostly related to how heavy they are (is it efficient to move more than 2 tons of hardware around just to transport a single person to/from work?), but battery-operated vehicles (from E-bikes and scooters, via motorcycles and cars to big trucks and ferries) are obviously the future of all transportation.
When we get another factor of two battery improvement (energy/kg) then commuter planes will stop using jet fuel as well.
Terje
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No mention that Nearly half of Buick dealers accept GM’s buyout offer [detroitnews.com] as industry stakeholders grapple with a bumpy transition to electric vehicles.
Here's why people aren't buying EVs in spite of price cuts and tax breaks. [usatoday.com]
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According to car and driver
Why hasn't ammonia received much attention in automotive contexts? For starters, it's not a great fuel. Ammonia is difficult to ignite at low temperatures, combusts over a narrow air-to-fuel ratio, and, among other things, can be prone to detonation. It boils at a chilly 28 degrees Fahrenheit and needs around 150 psi of pressure to remain liquid at the temperatures in which cars typically operate. Oh, and it's toxic.
https://www.caranddriver.com/f... [caranddriver.com]
Even if we solve all those issue
Not NH3 Combustion (Score:2)
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Re:Not NH3 Combustion (Score:4, Insightful)
its a closed loop system so the toxicity of NH3 doesnt matter
...as long as the system stays closed at least. How does a NH3 tank react to a sudden impact from, say, a car crash?
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They seem to be stuck in the lab and for fixed implementations right now, so I'm guessing there are issues with overall energy density. Sure, they have a smaller 'battery' - but that's because they don't have one at all, they have a fuel cell stack and a tank of ammonia.
I'm not saying they're not worth pursuing, but it would seem that they're not ready yet and will probably never be suitable for long-haul applications.
Re:Where are the NH3 FCEVs? (Score:4, Interesting)
There is no tech on the horizon that will dethrone BEVs. Hydrogen and NH3 are going nowhere without major investors and any would be investor who does market research is going to see once people have experienced living with a BEV they are not in a hurry to go back to the gas station model of fuel distribution and costs.
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Re: Where are the NH3 FCEVs? (Score:5, Funny)
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Our local Hertz has added a Tesla to their fleet and it's raised a concern I didn't see coming. For my Tesla, I will have home charging; it doesn't make sense without it. For the rentals, people really don't know how to charge them. I've answered the "How and where do I charge this thing?" question on our community Facebook group three times now.
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I walk 4 miles a day - had a foot injury 2 years ago that stopped my running and i'm getting the foot back into shape, slowly. Anywho, my path passes one of my distant neighbors who had a plug-in electric vehicle. They had, for about 6 months, one of those rubberized diamond plate cable path [allmats.com] things across the sidewalk so they could use an outlet on their house to charge the EV. It disappeared about a month ago, as did the vehicle. They haven't moved.
I personally think either the HOA got to them (diff HO
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This is in a townhouse section with no garages - fairly common actually. I don't think they own the right of way at the street, either, it's probably a common area. Illustrating even more issues - since that is a common area, getting stanchions installed is going to involve the HOA one way or another. So much glacier-like legal rigamarole and funding before it is made right. I estimated 50 years before this is all hashed out, probably not far off the mark. That's about how long it took for ICEs to get
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My wife and I were dining at our local restaurant and I was scrolling through my phone for something when she says, "Hon! Help them, please." A middle-aged out of town couple were seated behind us and were asking their waitress where the nearest charging station was. They were told, 'I THINK there's one at the gas station up ahead...' Bad advice.
It turns out that the couple had rented an electric car from an agency located in a airport about 60 miles away. They had flown up from Florida, dropping everything
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Yeah, that's a very bad take. It's either uber to a place that has a gasoline vehicle, or getting one brought over from a different lot.
Especially with older people on an emergency trip. Give one to people like me. On the other hand, I'd have baulked at the half charge condition. That's a straight up fail on their part.
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The last holiday resort
Re: EVs are not yet mass-market (Score:2)
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If this is largely an American issue, they will come around eventually.
For example, here in Sweden, I've noticed that Landlords are putting up charging stations on their properties all over the place, not only do they get a discount for doing so, but it also attracts new renters. If you could chose between the apartment with a Charging lot included, that's what you'd chose. So it gives them an edge.
Next to where I live they just put up 5 new apartments, and voila - just like that there was a parking lot wit
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Charging infrastructure is substantially resolved now that most of the manufacturers are adopting Tesla's plug and will be compatible with Superchargers going forward... whether it will reliably "just work" like a Tesla vehicle remains to be seen. Refueling will still be an issue for many apartment and condominium residents, but the availability of the Supercharger network for other makes will make EVs far more palatable because they are better suited to longer trips.
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This reminds me of the early days of the Internet where apartment dwellers and renters had to deal with third parties to get connected. That is seldom an issue these days because of the commercial considerations. It would be hard to get a decent rent on a place without a decent Internet connection these days,
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No it isn't. If you place a double or triple load on our aging electric infrastructure quickly, it could crumble.
Except that it shouldn't be a double load, much less a triple load. EVs are pretty much the definition of a shedable load, so they can charge when electrical demand is low and production high otherwise. Indeed, the higher utilization factor they should enable will make updating our infrastructure much easier.
You do have a point about on-street parking, but just like with parking meters, you can generally install chargers along the edge of the street.
Now, what would be expensive is fixing them having to pa
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> And home-owners with on-street parking.
Over the past year, several hundred Level 2 chargers have been installed curbside in New York City, and that's just from one provider that's partnered with ConEd.
And the first one was in June of 2023, so they're going at a fair pace...
=Smidge=
Re: EVs are not yet mass-market (Score:2)
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That's a political problem. In Europe the infrastructure is fine in many places, and affordable EVs have more than adequate range.
It's not the population density or weather - we have cold, heat, and sparsely populated areas.
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What?
High price is no longer a thing, they are price competitive.
Limited range is also not a thing for 99% of people, the 1% who need it can still buy a ICE, if they REALLY want.
Charging facilities for the 98% are even BETTER than going to a "gas station", both cheaper and more convenient (charge at home)
Maybe check on these complaints, before repeating incorrect information.
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I think that may change by 2026. By then, better battery chemistry will allow much lighter battery packs, and the switch to 800 V electrical systems could mean initial charging rates in well over 300 kW, which means we may see EV's go from 0 to 85 percent charge in under 10 minutes.
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we should let the migration to EVs take place at the speed of consumer interest
I can kind of agree with this in many cases but we also have to consider that consumer interest is driver a lot by what's shown to them and what's available to them. Consumers didn't really have an interest in slab style all touch phone until Jobs got on stage with the iPhone 1 (no physical keyboards? wtf?!?), they also didn't really have an interest in hybrid cars until the Prius was on sale.
Of course we all know the story of the GM EV1 in the 90's and those few consumers had a really good interest in tho
Re:EVs are not yet mass-market (Score:5, Insightful)
The whole "buy electric vehicles because you will be trendy and "in""
That only happens in your imagination.
Smug people are not very good at selling things to conservatives.
You haven't seen "smug" until you've seen a conservative that thinks they know something.
looking like a bunch of simple people instead of apple
"This guy looks like an idiot. I can trust his opinion on complex topics!"
focusing on things like repairability, overall simplicity and openness
That's way too abstract for the average conservative. If you want to sell EVs to an idiot, emasculate them. EVs generally have more torque and accelerate faster than their ICE counterparts, so can try something like: "I don't know about 'woke' or whatever, but it sure as hell has got more balls than your V8!" Just make sure you look and sound confident as they confuse the appearance of strength with truth.
In the worst case, you can always try to get them to believe that you're giving them access to some secret knowledge that "they" don't want you to know. They eat that crap up like horse paste. "What if they don't actually want us to buy EVs so we have to spend all our money on gas?"
Re: THANKS, BRANDON! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:It's definitely upending auto dealerships (Score:4, Insightful)
So you're narrative is that demand for the F150 lightning is about 83k units a year, about as many as the Kia Sorento, Toyota 4Runner, Honda Pilot and the Ford Bronco, all successful vehicles with long track records. Sounds like they overshot but those are perfectly cromulent sales numbers.
Also that the dealership model kinda sucks, it's owners are risk average and only sustained on their overpriced service centers and Ford should maybe advocate for the ability for customers to buy direct.
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Cromulent? Unpossible!
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Won't somebody pleeeeease think of the Buick dealers?
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Re: It's definitely upending auto dealerships (Score:5, Funny)
Speaking for the UK, it looks like insurance companies (or the underwriters) profiteering. My house insurance has risen by the same percentage as car insurance.
It's all the electric appliances...
Re:It's definitely upending auto dealerships (Score:5, Insightful)
You absolutely are pushing a narrative, we all are. You want to push a narrative that implied EV's are bad tech or a failure in some way, you don't say but it is absolutely implied.
Do I see electrics "everywhere"? I mean sorta. I see at least a few Tesla's everyday, a couple people at my work own them. I see Ioniq 5 and 6 out there more and more often in parking lots when I travel, I also am noticing way more Rivian trucks on the roads as well. Of course, I don't make conclusions about big sweeping issues based on my extremely limited experience.
I am not questions the claims necessarily but it is narrative.
The company’s next EVs are still a little over two years out.
This is kinda my stance, folks like you are declaring the EV dead when we are just getting real production ramped up. Every major car manufacter has 1-3 battery and EV factories under construction in the US right now.
If in 4-5 years that doesn't work out, you can crow to me all you want but I get the feeling this argument is a bit of a last gasp purely for ideological reasons. You don't actually care what fuel your car uses, so long as it works, most people don't
Re:It's definitely upending auto dealerships (Score:4, Informative)
, if they don't make people's lives easier
They generally, not for everyone but for around 50-70% of people today an EV fits their needs perfectly and saves them money (once they hit more price parity with ICE, see upcoming factory note)
will never be able to have dedicated access to a charger
Never is a very strong word. There's infrastructure to be built but as more EV's are sold more chargers go in. Yet again, we are looking at today and saying things can never improve. If you have access to electricity you can charge your car. It's not like the earth was born with the infrastructure to support gasoline vehicles, it took decades and actually a lot of government money.
don't have enough power in their garage
That's kinda true but what you are talking about is a 240V/30 or 50A outlet which is a half days work for an electrician in general. Even people with 100A service can usually squeeze it in without a service upgrade. Also just about all new construction houses have the outlet built in. If it's not workable for your home than maybe a hybrid is more your speed. Most EV's will charge overnight even on a 120V/20A though, maybe not from zero but on a typical days drive. The fact you have a garage at all puts you in a favorable position over many others. I have a 150A service and I had a 50A put in for a welder, $500. Anecdotal but that's literally all it is. Again, problems today are just problems to solve tomorrow.
hunting/fishing/camping in the wilderness
Sure. In that case maybe make sure you have an EV that has sufficient range for a trip like that, maybe you keep a second gas vehicle for such things or maybe if you are the small plurality of people who frequently take long camping trips with a single vehicle, maybe an EV is just not for you right now. That's OK my friend, gas cars and hybrids will be around for a long while still. You are using 20% of people to speak for the 80%
solid state batteries hit the market their cars will be worthless.
This is a gigantic reach and really just absolute pure FUD and that's not how anything works with cars or economies. Car's don't become "worthless" because a better car comes out later, I know you know this. Also is there any shred of evidence of production scaled, commercialized, solid state batteries in the next 10-20 years?
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Really? They don't charge by KWh? They charge by amperage? I live in the US so that's what I am familiar with.
In the USA doesn't matter what outlets or amps they are, only thing at the meter is concerned with is KWh consumed, at least residentially.
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And yet, 1.4m people bought one this year (in the US).
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Who ever modded the parent post a troll needs a reality check. Most new BEVs are luxury vehicles for anyone in the US earning the average salary or less. And unlike the troll who used misused their mod points, I'm going to back up my beliefs with a citation. https://www.reuters.com/busine... [reuters.com]
The same is true in Europe. The entire Tesla line, for example, is a bunch of luxury vehicles except maybe for the very cheapest model which is still something of an extravagance for the average wage earner. What's likely to change that, at least in Europe, is the expansion of EV charging networks to eliminate range anxiety, cheaper and better batteries, new generations with a different attitude on how to travel and what the range of a car needs to be and the arrival of cheap Chinese EVs on the market. This
Re: It's definitely upending auto dealerships (Score:3)
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Re:It's debatable (Score:5, Informative)
All vehicles have been zero emissions for 20 years?
Tire particulate contributes the most to smog?
Do you live in reality?
Here is the smog source contribution:
Transportation (total): 53%
Power Generation: 26%
Industrial Processes: 11%
Fires: 6%
Oil and Gas Operations: 3%
Other Minor Sources: 1%
Re:I'm talking about smog (Score:4, Insightful)
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You are trying to pose a logical argument to a guy who believes everyone should live in one huge metropolis with everything and everyone you'll ever need within walking distance.
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You should probably check those "facts". Tire and brake wear together only account for something like 15%. EVs, thanks to regenerative braking, reduce that significantly.
Re:Dumb (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re: Dumb (Score:2)
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For quick changes we have grid scale battery storage/source. I expect in future BEV charging will support grid communications to allow charging of cars to be started and stopped to match the grid needs and generation availability. We have already be doing that for decades with ripple control of hot water heating.
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USA style peaker plants are not used much here. We have ripple control systems that allow load to be shed when needed until more water can be passed by hydro dams or steam by geothermal. For short term need there is several grid battery storage sites.
I stand by my stateme
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You know, this makes me wonder how Ford and the other traditional car companies can screw things up so badly?
Tesla, we know, makes money on every car sold. With the recent price cuts, it might be less, but they're not losing money on every EV. Why can't the traditional companies, for example, get batteries at reasonable prices?
Or is it that they're trying to amortize R&D costs over a ridiculously short production run?
I used to think that they'd crush Tesla as soon as they "got serious" about producing