New Pollution Rules Aim To Lift Sales of Electric Trucks (nytimes.com) 179
An anonymous reader quotes a report from the New York Times: The Biden administration on Friday announced a regulation designed to turbocharge sales of electric or other zero-emission heavy vehicles, from school buses to cement mixers, as part of its multifront attack on global warming. The Environmental Protection Agency projects the new rule could mean that 25 percent of new long-haul trucks, the heaviest on the road, and 40 percent of medium-size trucks, like box trucks and landscaping vehicles, could be nonpolluting by 2032. Today, fewer than 2 percent of new heavy trucks sold in the United States fit that bill. The regulation would apply to more than 100 types of vehicles including tractor-trailers, ambulances, R.V.s, garbage trucks and moving vans.
The rule does not mandate the sales of electric trucks or any other type of zero or low-emission truck. Rather, it increasingly limits the amount of pollution allowed from trucks across a manufacturer's product line over time, starting in model year 2027. It would be up to the manufacturer to decide how to comply. Options could include using technologies like hybrids or hydrogen fuel cells or sharply increasing the fuel efficiency of the conventional trucks. The truck regulation follows another rule made final last week that is designed to ensure that the majority of new passenger cars and light trucks sold in the United States are all-electric or hybrids by 2032, up from just 7.6 percent last year.
Together, the car and truck rules are intended to slash carbon dioxide pollution from transportation, the nation's largest source of the fossil fuel emissions that are driving climate change and that helped to make 2023 the hottest year in recorded history. Electric vehicles are central to President Biden's strategy to confront global warming, which calls for cutting the nation's emissions in half by the end of this decade.
The rule does not mandate the sales of electric trucks or any other type of zero or low-emission truck. Rather, it increasingly limits the amount of pollution allowed from trucks across a manufacturer's product line over time, starting in model year 2027. It would be up to the manufacturer to decide how to comply. Options could include using technologies like hybrids or hydrogen fuel cells or sharply increasing the fuel efficiency of the conventional trucks. The truck regulation follows another rule made final last week that is designed to ensure that the majority of new passenger cars and light trucks sold in the United States are all-electric or hybrids by 2032, up from just 7.6 percent last year.
Together, the car and truck rules are intended to slash carbon dioxide pollution from transportation, the nation's largest source of the fossil fuel emissions that are driving climate change and that helped to make 2023 the hottest year in recorded history. Electric vehicles are central to President Biden's strategy to confront global warming, which calls for cutting the nation's emissions in half by the end of this decade.
But is this feasible? (Score:3, Insightful)
It's becoming more apparent as electric vehicles have been around for a while that this is barely feasible with cars. They are expensive, heavy, costly to repair, have high insurance rates, and the worst part they are disposable. Ramping this up to heavy equipment is just not smart. I'm all for greener vehicle technology but currently hybrid systems seem to be the best option right now. Perhaps Toyota's venture into hydrogen powered ICE may prove fruitful. The problem with all electric is that creating the batteries is much worse on the environment. Generating hydrogen in sufficient quantities has the same issue. We need to start looking for other options as all electric seems to heading downhill quickly.
Generation - Storage - Tranmission - Use (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Wow, your reply was deeply logical and fact filled. Certainly convinced me! I am with you!
Re: (Score:2)
Like most of the bullshit you write, it didn't deserve any more effort than that.
Re: (Score:2)
"I know you are but what am I?" -- narcc on a good day.
So sad. I don't hate you the way you hate me. I pity your stupidity and inability to express yourself better than a 1st grader.
Re: (Score:2)
Cry harder, troll. Your tears are delicious.
Re: (Score:2)
No one is crying. You made a stupid comment to someone else. I called you out as usual. Now you're acting like a child for getting called out.
This is how it normally goes with you. Followed by your bizarre and typical "woot I'm winning, cry, your tears! Ha ha ha!"
You're pretty fucked up in the head and very broken as a man. Fortunately the odds you have kids or a spouse are very low. Darwin always wins in the end.
Re: But is this feasible? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
In what possible way is an EV disposable? And specifically how do you think it is *more* disposable than an ICE vehicle??
Yes, it is. (Score:5, Interesting)
Perhaps Toyota's venture into hydrogen powered ICE may prove fruitful.
The problem there is that hydrogen production/distribution/storage is still a very energy intensive. Production using fossil fuels results in pollution but distribution and storage and remain energy intensive making it less efficient than BEV charged by natural gas based electricity production.
Toyota has altered their corporate roadmap and are now aiming for BEV with solid-state batteries. [caranddriver.com]
The problem with all electric is that creating the batteries is much worse on the environment.
In what way? Like petroleum extraction and refinement, the impacts of battery production are local. However, the impacts of using/disposing of petroleum products are global while using batteries has no impact and will truly be recycled. [scitechdaily.com]
We need to start looking for other options as all electric seems to heading downhill quickly.
It only seems like that to you for some reason. Perhaps your sources of information are not objective and thus leaving you with a significant bias. The truth is BEV is just getting started as battery storage has become much cheaper [statista.com] in recent years.
Since there are so many different ways of making battery storage, it is reasonable to assume that cost of production and recycling will drop in the future.
Re:Trolling (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Explain to me how I'm trolling?
You're not. Clearly, somebody with an agenda and an axe to grind got hold of some mod points and went to town. I say this based not just on your post, but on the mods of those prior to it. It's sad that there's so much of that going on here these days.
I actually like to discuss things with people and I sometimes even change my mind as a result. So I'd much rather deal with (what I might see as) propagandistic comments than with propagandistic moderation - the former is more transparent.
Re:But is this feasible? (Score:4, Interesting)
This is worth a read about fossil mining requiring 535 times more mining than clean energy [miningsee.eu]
This shows the amount of minerals mined - see if you can spot the minerals required for batteries [visualcapitalist.com]
Re: (Score:3)
When it comes to heavy trucks, many major manufacturers are investing heavily in electric battery powered trucks.
Regarding the impact of EV battery production, although the production of an EV creates more carbon
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Explain to me how I'm trolling?
I would not have modded you as "troll".
It does seem like "flamebait" would apply, as your post is a series of false statements crafted to invite angry replies from those offended by 'someone is wrong on the internet!'
But you do you....
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Weight? Yeah my EV is lighter than most American cars, so what's the issue.
What specific model do you drive, because on the whole, an EV is heavier than its comparable non-EV [cnn.com]. This applies across the entire range of vehicles from cars to trucks.
Insurance? Really? My current insurance went down when I bought an EV.
You must be the anomaly because insurance for EVs are generally higher [kbb.com] than non-EVs for multiple reasons, not the least of which it costs more to repair an EV.
Expensive? EVs are available for less
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Hydrogen is stupid but there's nothing progressive or conservative about his message. You're stuck in bizarro world where anything that doesn't align 100% with your bubble is a conspiracy of evil conservatives to destroy the world, enslave women (a term you can no longer define), kill all blacks, and take us back to a 1950s that only ever existed in your mind from your master's propaganda.
Re: (Score:2)
He can be right or wrong without it being due to his politics.
Why does it always have to be about politics?
Maybe he's just wrong and not up to date on hydrogen? Up until a few years ago everyone was all psyched about hydrogen. Was that a progressive stance? Now that we realize that hydrogen is dumb is that a conservative stance?
Neither. Hydrogen can just be dumb all on its own because it's just dumb.
why? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: why? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Why would he not agree? What does a company overly aggressively ramping up hiring of passenger vehicles have anything even remotely to do with short haul transportation and heavy vehicles?
Actually let me ask my pet rabbit if he agrees with the OP, his opinion is just as relevant as that of Hertz, a company which is in a completely different industry to the one being discussed, and whose products failed in that industry for reasons completely unrelated to EV use heavy vehicles.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Generally people are fine with change. They just have to be changing to something that they see as more beneficial to them than before they changed.
Exactly my point. A like for like change isn't enough. You need something to push people over the edge.
EVs are becoming betamax and the 3d TV
Errr no. EVs are trending upwards globally with zero signs of change. Even in the USA the lines are "rate of growth is slowing" not that demand isn't growing.
Maybe I'm wrong and there will be some radical improvement in charging very soon
What radical improvement do you need? Only 3 weeks ago I took a 4 hour road trip in an EV. The total time it took compared to the same trip I used to do in my petrol car was literally 5 minutes longer than previous. I even stopped at the same service
Re: (Score:2)
One way to overcoming this is to stack the deck in favour of the policy goal you have.
In other words, government telling you what to do, instead of vice versa.
Re: (Score:2)
In other words, government telling you what to do, instead of vice versa.
No, you're still free to do whatever you want. But I have a better question for you: What is the point of the government if not to tell you what to do? Subsidies are one tool to enact policy. If you don't like living under a policy determined by a democratically elected process then I'm sure there's some deserted island in the middle of nowhere you can go and declare yourself arbitrary ruler.
Central planning, works great! (Score:2, Troll)
The only thing missing is a Five Year Plan from The Central Committee in Moscow, I mean Washington.
Oh wait, no, we got that, too. It's just 7-10 years.
Population (Score:2)
Before I get the standard reply of "But the population is shrinking!", no it's not (yet)--predictions don't count. I just went to a meeting about revamping a school building and they already know of and are planning for an increase due to the pandemic babies. Our immigration woes don't help, either.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
That said, if I were king, fines/taxes would be the way I would try manage future family sizes; with imprisonment/sterilization of the individuals if they continu
money, honey (Score:2)
Look for everything to get more expensive in pursuit of the holy grail.
Re: (Score:2)
Ignorance is no excuse!
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Fortunately never as she was too busy wiping her illegal server with a cloth. The server on her bathroom floor full of classified material she hired a random outsource uncleared IT guy to maintain.
Re: (Score:3)
The server on her bathroom floor full of classified material
Yeah, what is it with these people storing classified material in bathrooms?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
This fundamentally misunderstands the way truck drivetrains work — there’s plenty of space for batteries.
https://elaad.nl/wp-content/up... [elaad.nl]
Re: Just another push for China (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
You’re assuming that 400km is the max ever achievable range, and that gravimetric density today is the best it will ever be. Yet the whole point of the paper is that these and other metrics such as cost / kWh have massively improved over the last 20 years and will continue to improve in the next 20. So even if you can’t solve for long distance semi trucking in the US today, you can solve for all the other use cases today, and solve for that one in five years’ time instead.
Re: Just another push for China (Score:2)
What about if you had a vehicle with hundreds of trailers attached to it. You couldn't run it on normal roads obviously so what about special purpose rights of way just for these vehicles. You could then use bits of metal to guide these vehicles so the driver doesn't need to steer, just control the speed and brakes. You could even power these things by electricity (provided through an on board diesel generator, a battery system or overhead wires).
Re: Just another push for China (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Exactly because as we know because the math has been done many times, if we flat out confiscate the wealth of all the rich people, we can run the government for less than half a year before we're confiscating from the middle and working classes.
Clearly this is a 1% life style issue. Taylor Swift just needs to ride the bus to work.
Re: Just another push for China (Score:4, Insightful)
if we flat out confiscate the wealth of all the rich people, we can run the government for less than half a year before we're confiscating from the middle and working classes
The top 1% has roughly one third of all of the money in the United States. About $45 trillion [federalreserve.gov]. Just how large do you think the government's budget is? Why on earth would you hear a statistic like that and not know immediately that it's bullshit?
Some people seem to have their bullshit detectors screwed on backwards or something.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Did you even look at your own page? Straight out you ignored the $20+ trillion in liabilities. And then ignored that most of that wealth is in stocks, bonds, real estate, and luxury goods. How exactly do you plan to turn someone's stocks or art collection into cash you can use to pay the government's debts?
Where's my eye roll emoji when I need it?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I'm not sure where you're trying to go with the other part of your argument. It's true that rich people have a lot of equities and middle class people have a lot of real estate, and both of these things have issues with liquidity. And yet, despite that, taxes still get paid. It's not the insurmountable problem that you're suggesting it is here.
Re: (Score:2)
Try again. $20+ trillion. I'm sorry you can't read a chart.
Not my fault or problem.
The US school loan debt total is $1.7 trillion. How can the total of everything be only $1 trillion?
Jfc.... people... get with it.
Re: (Score:2)
You are an overly confident person.
Re: (Score:2)
Dude, read your own link. I don't know what else to say. Learn to read a chart. Your numbers you're posting here from your own link are wrong, or least incomplete.
Re: (Score:2)
Liabilities for Top 0.1%: $0.20 T
for 99-99.9%: $0.79 T
for 90-99%: $3.73 T
for 50-90%: $8.51 T
for Bottom 50%: $5.96 T
Total: $19.19 T
You are not living up to the name that you have chosen for yourself.
Re: (Score:2)
Oh look, you made it. 1 trillion just turned into 20 when you finally looked at your own link.
Lmao
Re: (Score:2)
Is this why you're right wing? Is this Trump Derangement Syndrome? I thought that was just a blind spot about Trump
Re: (Score:2)
I don't know what you've been talking about. You're all over the place and haven't even understood your own linked data.
Go have the last word, I'm prepping dinner for family this evening. I've reached maximum silliness with your inability to understand your own link and your insistence on believing the opposite of the reality you posted for us.
Tl;dr: you posted a link you don't understand. I understand what you posted. This upsets you. This now bores me.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
This puts the threshold really quite a bit lower than most people think, below the 1%, but I like a definition which links your class to your ability to act, your freedom, rather than merely to whatever luxury goods you can afford.
Re: (Score:2)
He also didn't subtract the 20+ trillion in liabilities on the same page.
But facts and math are tricky when trying to make a point.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2, Troll)
What 6 trillion dollars in annual fossil fuel subsidies?
Re: (Score:2)
Women fought in that war too.
Re: (Score:3)
Ah huh. Right. So let's focus on the direct subsidies. Care to enumerate them?
Re: (Score:2)
Omg dude, the federal government collected $4.5 trillion last year from all sources.
You think it would be over $10 trillion if not for these claimed subsidies? Annually???
Use common sense.
Re: (Score:2)
I was getting to that but yeah, $6 trillion annually seems a bit . . . far-fetched?
Re: (Score:3)
I often think about this. It seems to be a great example of how he understands machines well, but not people
Re: (Score:2)
It seems to be a great example of how he understands machines well
Excuse me? When an outsider has created checklists [qz.com] for new owners of Tesla vehicles to see how badly their vehicle was put together, that does not scream understanding machines.
Hans Kristian Graebener = StoneToss
Re: (Score:2)
I think that’s a pretty trite example, tbh. Yes, build quality. I bought a Mercedes EQA because I prefer the better build quality. But its undeniable that Tesla under Musk has driven remarkable innovation in EVs that most other manufacturers have struggled to match, from the machine that builds the machines through to better more compact motors through to the introduction of frunks through to all-round dashcams.
Re: (Score:2)
I think that’s a pretty trite example, tbh.
Oh really? Is this [imgur.com] a trite issues? Or this [motortrend.com]? Or perhaps this is a trite issue [electrek.co]. When there is an entire web site devoted to your vehicles catching fire [tesla-fire.com], is that a trite issue? And this doesn't even include the multiple instances of Tesla vehicles plowing into parked emergency vehicles [electrek.co] which have their lights on.
But yeah, nothing but trite issues.
Re: (Score:2)
You are assuming that these issues are not trite because they are severe. But they are also *rare*. It’s not like 20% of Teslas have sufffered from their wheels flying off, is it? It’s a tiny percentage, and unless the rate is wildly higher than for other cars, these are indeed trite issues. Given that one of your examples was about Teslas catching fire, and the rate of Tesla fires is much much lower than the rate of ICE fires due to EVs being inherently less prone to catching fire, I’m pr
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Sure — and lots of consumers value those things, including me, which is why I am excited for the arrival of my EQA this week. But clearly lots of other consumers have decided they can live with shonky panel gaps if it means they can have a frunk and bonkers acceleration, and OTA updates, etc etc. The world isn’t Manichean!
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Your idea of fun and mine are very different. I personally don’t care about bonkers acceleration *or* building a car for myself. But the numbers of people who like bonkers acceleration is much larger than the numbers who like building cars
Re: (Score:2)
What does Musk do? Mostly Twitter, it seems.
Re: (Score:2)
Bad analogy. The president doesn't hire the economy nor tell the economy what build quality to accept.
Re:Sad Elon (Score:5, Informative)
If you visited conservative sites you'd know the big deal is the mandate to switch to EV. They don't care if you own one.
Re: (Score:2)
Oh believe me, I've seen plenty of conservatives' opinions of EVs, it's part of why for awhile I believed EVs were impractical, too. The chargers are always broken, you'll constantly be going through tires, ICE vehicles are simpler to repair, the batteries don't last, the range goes to shit in the winter, etc. Sure, they don't care if you buy one, but most of them aren't going to unless they're wealthy enough to buy one as a second vehicle. I know at least a few conservatives who have done that, usually
Re: (Score:2)
There are stupid people on every site. Look at slashdot. Outrageous amount of self aggrandizing ignorant stupidity here and it's even encouraged by giving them mod points to abuse.
If there was no mandate conservatives wouldn't care. In the ~10 years previous to Biden pushing hard for EV they literally didn't talk about EVs at all. All the anti-EV noise is directly a result of the mandates.
As far as Elon goes, he has made it very clear he doesn't give a damn about profit. Why should one of the richest m
Re: (Score:2)
What's the point of being that wealthy if all you do is make more? To what end?
I don't understand why people even keep working once they reach that point. I would be happy with enough that I could live in a 3000 square foot house on at least an acre lot and have a sensible vehicle without having to ever worry about money for that or food. Also I would like to know there would be money between my own and my kids to get them through school. But what's the challenge in it once you have enough to live 100 lives for that.
You need more than that (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Again, what I ask every time a leftist makes claims to know what conservatives think and are driven by: how would you know?
Do you hang out in any place online or off where conservatives gather to discuss?
My bet: no. Because you're talking nonsense. Do progressives not have boats or snow mobiles or motorcycles?
Listen to yourself. Your statements are wildly silly and ridiculous.
Re: (Score:2)
This gives corporations an incentive to do nothing: Should the universe prevent them buying, sorry persuading, a president to nullify the law, corporations will claim they can't meet the targets in the remaining 12 months and enforcing the law is unfair (and expensive).
Thus, nothing changes.
Re: Not worried about it (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: Not worried about it (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
"The Continental Army suffered a bitter winter of Valley Forge, found glory across the waters of the Delaware, and seized victory from Cornwallis of Yorktown. Our army manned the air, it rammed the ramparts, it took over the airports, it did everything it had to do."
there are people think he is competent to rule
Re: (Score:2)
I thought one of the Orange Ones best quotes was about the American Civil War
Let us not forget his magnificent comment [snopes.com] on what he would do to help Ukraine defeat Russia:
"Well what I would do, is I would, we would, we have tremendous military capability and what we can do without planes, to be honest with you, without 44-year-old jets, what we can do is enormous, and we should be doing it and we should be helping them to survive and they're doing an amazing job."
Hans Kristian Graebener = StoneToss
Re: (Score:2)
Rules for radicals: accuse them of doing what you're doing.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
...and Trump's playbook. Putin's too, now that I think about it.
Re: (Score:2)
Street legal golf carts might meet you criteria.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Motorcycles are not called widow makers for nothin (Score:2)