China and EU To Hold Talks On Electric Car Tariffs (bbc.com) 47
Top officials from the European Union and China agreed to negotiate a planned series of import taxes on Chinese electric vehicles. "The call marks the first time the two sides have agreed to negotiate since the EU threatened China with electric vehicle (EV) tariffs of up to 38%," reports the BBC. From the report: The EU said Chinese EVs were unfairly subsidised by its government. In response, China accused the EU of protectionism and trade rule breaches.
An EU spokesperson told the BBC the call between Trade Commissioner Valdis Dombrovskis and his Chinese counterpart Wang Wentao was "candid and constructive." They said the two sides would "continue to engage at all levels in the coming weeks." However, the spokesperson also doubled down on the EU's opposition to how the Chinese EV industry is funded. They said "any negotiated outcome" to the proposed tariffs must address the "injurious subsidisation" of Chinese EVs.
China released a similar statement on Saturday and made clear it still disagreed with the EU. As well as its call with the EU, Mr Wang met German Vice-Chancellor and Federal Minister for Economic Affairs and Climate Action Robert Habeck on Saturday. In a Facebook post about the meeting, China's Ministry of Commerce said it had told Mr Habeck about its "firm opposition" to the tariffs. It repeated its threat to file a lawsuit with the World Trade Organization (WTO) "to firmly defend its legitimate rights and interests."
Germany has also expressed criticism of the tariffs. When the EU first proposed them last week following its investigation of Chinese EVs in the trading bloc, Germany's Transport Minister, Volker Wissing, said the move risked a "trade war" with Beijing. "The European Commission's punitive tariffs hit German companies and their top products," he wrote on X, formerly known as Twitter, at the time. The European car industry has been critical too. Stellantis - which owns Citroen, Peugeot, Vauxhall, Fiat, and several other brands - said it did not support measures that "contribute to the world fragmentation [of trade]."
China released a similar statement on Saturday and made clear it still disagreed with the EU. As well as its call with the EU, Mr Wang met German Vice-Chancellor and Federal Minister for Economic Affairs and Climate Action Robert Habeck on Saturday. In a Facebook post about the meeting, China's Ministry of Commerce said it had told Mr Habeck about its "firm opposition" to the tariffs. It repeated its threat to file a lawsuit with the World Trade Organization (WTO) "to firmly defend its legitimate rights and interests."
Germany has also expressed criticism of the tariffs. When the EU first proposed them last week following its investigation of Chinese EVs in the trading bloc, Germany's Transport Minister, Volker Wissing, said the move risked a "trade war" with Beijing. "The European Commission's punitive tariffs hit German companies and their top products," he wrote on X, formerly known as Twitter, at the time. The European car industry has been critical too. Stellantis - which owns Citroen, Peugeot, Vauxhall, Fiat, and several other brands - said it did not support measures that "contribute to the world fragmentation [of trade]."
Wang... (Score:2)
First...keeping a straight face...then....
Negotiation? (Score:3)
What cards are China holding that the EU want badly enough to allow their automotive marketplace to get decimated with china government subsided dangerously crappily made EVs?
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They are substantially ahead in many significant ways:
- Better tech eg infotainment
- Some aspects of better value for consumers, eg more premium features at each price point
- Lower costs-to-build due to more integrated and scaled supply chains esp for batteries, eg BYD Blade 2.0
Re:Negotiation? (Score:5, Insightful)
What cards are China holding that the EU want badly enough to allow their automotive marketplace to get decimated with china government subsided dangerously crappily made EVs?
Probably the same ones as with the US - I'm guessing a lot of "European" products are manufactured in China, in whole or in part.
Re:Negotiation? (Score:4, Interesting)
There is nothing stopping the EU from requiring that Chinese EVs meet minimum standards for safety etc to keep the junk out of the market. I took a long road trip a while back and the people I was with (and who were doing the driving) had a BYD Atto 3 EV as a rental car. It was comfortable to ride in, charged up nice and fast at the fast chargers we stopped at and felt like it was decently built and not junk. And it got a 5 star safety rating so its obviously not "dangerous" or "unsafe".
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Correct. Chinese EV's will have to meet minimum criteria for Global NCAP safety certification. I believe that Geely and very likely BYD are aiming for their vehicles to get good scores from Global NCAP crash testing on all their models.
Re: Negotiation? (Score:2)
The Atto 3 I mentioned gets 5 stars ANCAP so that should be good enough.
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Driving a competitor out of business does not destroy the capital used for production not the experti
China is the 3rd largest market for European cars (Score:2)
China is the 3rd largest market for European cars, I think that gives them something to bring to the table.
Re: Negotiation? (Score:2)
Many European car manufacturers rely on parts made în China, have partners in China or simply produce some models in China. Making cars fully inside the EU result in prices to high for what the market can afford.
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The EVs from China and Singapore, where I had the pleasure to ride in, were all excellent!
And I am German by birth, used to German cars.
The German car industry wont be decimated by importing Chinese cars. Cars are a status symbol. If you want an Audi, BMW, Mercedes: you still want them. Does not matter that a Chinese equivalent is 1/3rd of the price.
No idea why Germans like cars that are worth more than a small flat. But they do.
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China is a huge export market for EU automotive manufacturers, and many EU manufacturers rely on China for critical EV components like batteries.
It would be best for EU consumers if the tariffs weren't there. We need cheaper EVs and competition.
Re: Negotiation? (Score:2)
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What cards are China holding that the EU want badly enough to allow their automotive marketplace to get decimated with china government subsided dangerously crappily made EVs?
I take it you're American and are unfamiliar with how the world does international trade deals.
It's not about China having any cards over the EU (or vice versa) it's about the EU and China talking about what products and services they'd like to exchange, in what quantities and under what terms. Discussions continue back and forth making trades and concessions until either both sides reach an agreement or one side walks away from the deal. That's how international trade deals work for most countries as mo
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> I take it you're American
No. Guess again.
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>> the EU isn't going let China import crappy products into the EU willy nilly
It's got nothing to do with the quality of the cars.
"Chinese EVs were unfairly subsidised by its government" is the issue, and they certainly are heavily subsidized. The EU doesn't want their automotive industry destroyed from the dumping of products being sold for less than the actual production cost similar to what China is doing with solar panels and steel.
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I think probably cos WV, BMW etc in Germany are opposed to the China EV tariffs, and so Germany is opposed.
https://www.euronews.com/busin... [euronews.com]
I don't understand the thinking here - lose your home market so that you can sell in China for however long before China goverment kicks you out or until the China companies learn from you and kill you off everywhere after overtaking you.
You can't beat them on price, cos of the subsidies, lower wages, lesser safety / environment things in factories, etc. So whats the lo
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I totally agree with your concerns.
The problem is, as you correctly pointed out, that it's not a level playing field. The Chinese government are playing the long game and subsidising the hell out of companies that export to the west. I mean look at all the "made in china" crap that you can buy for next to nothing online. I strongly suspect that it actually costs more to make and ship than what it sells for. I have a friend that bought a chinese-made quartz watch just to get the battery out and throw the wat
Tariffs? (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't see the point to these Tariffs.
It's just protectionism. Both the EU and USA should compete with tech rather than tariffs. Let the Chinese sell their cars in their markets. See how far they get.
If US / EU car companies don't like it, then they can try harder to make better/cheaper cars that are competitive.
Re:Tariffs? (Score:5, Interesting)
So. In 10 years China will dominate Western markets and they'll buy what is left of our auto manufacturers. That is what the tariffs are supposed to prevent
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China out-capitalizing the capitalists.
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It's the other way around with EVs. China has the best battery tech, and the best drivetrains. A lot of European and US manufacturers buy their components, e.g. Volkswagen and Tesla use Chinese batteries. It's the EU and US that are scrambling to catch up, copying Chinese tech.
On quality, Chinese luxury cars are every bit as good as the German ones, and even their budget priced cars feel solid and well made. Lots of hard plastic in the interior, but comfort where it matters. The main area they are a bit lac
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The only thing tariffs do is shift production from more profitable enterprise to less profitable enterprise. This benefits the unproductive company, but at the expense of everyone else, including consumer
Re:Tariffs? (Score:5, Interesting)
Can't have it both ways. Either both sides play by the same rules or you end up with constant threats of tariffs and retaliatory tariffs.
As for the Chinese cars - I'm not sure they'd meet the more stringent safety rules.
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However China has put heavy regulation or outright bans on many US companies.
So has the EU. Naturally, every country expects companies operating there to obey the local laws and regulations.
It works both ways too. China is mostly RoHS compliant, even though it's an EU rule, because the EU market is big enough to oblige them to meet its standards.
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If China allowed European countries and the US unfettered access to their market, I would agree with you. However China has put heavy regulation or outright bans on many US companies.
Can't have it both ways. Either both sides play by the same rules or you end up with constant threats of tariffs and retaliatory tariffs.
As for the Chinese cars - I'm not sure they'd meet the more stringent safety rules.
Most American cars do not meet the EU's stringent safety rules. I've seen the absolute frankenmonster that a C5 Vette needs to become to driven on UK roads and we're one of the most easy going countries on imports (you can drive a wrong hand drive car here) simply because a the 2004 regs on UK cars are different ri 2004 US regs (things like requiring fog lights, side indicators, amber coloured indicators, so on and so forth). The Corvette is one of the few decent cars the US has produced as well.
The EU
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As for the Chinese cars - I'm not sure they'd meet the more stringent safety rules.
They can meet stringent safety rules - it may cost another 10% more to manufacture, but if it's already 50% cheaper, another 10% more will still have them as the cheapest options around.
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>"I don't see the point to these Tariffs."
What I find strange is China, KNOWING they will get large tariffs in certain regions, could simply artificially raise the prices, themselves, to meet whatever the tariff would likely be, then POCKET that pure profit.
>"If US / EU car companies don't like it, then they can try harder to make better/cheaper cars that are competitive."
The argument would be that China does not have the same level of labor laws/pay, safety focus (for workers and consumers), environm
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How do you compete with forced labor, no minimum wage, no environmental protection requirements, no worker-safety requirements, energy and raw materials supplied at less than market cost?
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I think your perception of China is a bit outdated.
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Money talks, climate change walks (Score:2)
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It's a bit difficult to be concerned about the climate in 10 years when unfair trade could leave someone unemployed and begging for food in a matter of weeks.
Everything costs money, and that includes how we deal with a "global climate emergency". We can spend piles of money on efforts to reduce CO2 emissions. We can accept that it's cheaper to keep emitting CO2 but deal with the rising seas and such with large engineering works. There's a lot of room between those extremes in making some kind of compromi
Why compete (Score:2)
When you can legislate?
It’s interesting that the (Score:2)
That would suggest that the EU carmakers see very little profit to be made from EVs. At least not at this point.
If that’s the case, what’s the problem if the Chinese government wants to shovel Chinese tax dollars at Chinese EV companies who will then sell EVs to Europeans at a price point that’s less than the cost of production? Literally everybody wins except the Chinese, who will actively get poorer because their Emperor wants to coddle a
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If thatâ(TM)s the case, whatâ(TM)s the problem if the Chinese government wants to shovel Chinese tax dollars at Chinese EV companies who will then sell EVs to Europeans at a price point thatâ(TM)s less than the cost of production?
One guess I'd have is because cheap import EVs don't compete with just domestic EVs but also those that burn gasoline and diesel fuel.
Let's remove one "degree of freedom" on this and put this as a domestic EV manufacturer like Tesla (domestic to the USA), against a domestic manufacturer of gasoline burners such as Ford (ignoring their EV products like F-150 Lightning for a bit) and consider what happens if Tesla was permitted to sell below costs. Clearly Tesla could only sell below costs for as long as the
Drop your "no limit" partnership with Putin (Score:2)
Subsidies? (Score:2)
Europe practically INVENTED the term. Not a single european food producer could exist without subsidies nowdays. What special tariffs are applied to european food produce in asia? None, same as all others'. Imagine what would happen if tariffs were imposed on dutch flowers, for example?
Protectionism never worked out for anyone but if EU is set on following US downfall it is free to do so...
Whose interests does the EU think it's serving? (Score:2)
European carmakers are saying don't do this; consumers will obviously have to pay a higher price than would otherwise be the case; so if it's not to help manufacturers and it's not to help consumers, who does the EU think it's helping?
I don't mean this simply rhetorically? I mean: the EU has lots of smart people there. They can certainly follow this logic, and nothing I've written will be any kind of revelation. Do they simply disbelieve the European OEMs saying "this won't help us", and think that in fact
EU people's private car data... for China's AI? (Score:1)
Modern cars are the most sensor-packed consumer devices that collect all sorts of data, like the cell phone...
Key value to China, is using cars as source data to for training AI models.