Logitech Mulls Subscription Model for 'Forever' Mouse 177
Logitech, the Swiss-American computer peripherals manufacturer, is considering the development of a long-lasting mouse that could potentially serve customers "forever," according to CEO Hanneke Faber. In a recent interview, Faber revealed that the company's innovation center has presented her with a prototype of such a device. The concept mouse, described as slightly heavier than standard models, would rely on software updates and services to maintain its functionality over time. Faber likened it to a quality watch that doesn't require frequent replacement.
or... make it serviceable and offer paid repair (Score:2, Interesting)
You know, like things worked for that last few thousand and somehow allowed companies to grow and thrive.
Re:or... make it serviceable and offer paid repair (Score:5, Insightful)
You know...a quality watch doesn't require a rental payment agreement either....
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Quality mechanical watch (those with automatic movements) requires frequent service by watchmakers that know what they're doing. Otherwise it becomes a restoration project by owner's heirs when they get it.
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The irony about your comment is that the Swatch group owns many of the massive Swiss watch manufacturers, and if you do something like send your fancy Omega or Tissot in for it's service it goes to ... a Swatch service centre.
Why are you forking over thousands of dollars in service?
Same reason a Ferrari oil change runs for more than $50. Complex things are more complex to maintain. Your watch has a battery, and a little oscillator that makes a couple of gears spin. Mine has close to 100 moving parts, an array of springs, 50 precision jewel bearings, and when it
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You know...a quality watch doesn't require a rental payment agreement either....
As someone who just picked up his omega from service, quality watches require a service every 5-10 years depending on brand that is ~10% of the initial MSRP. You could break that down into a $10/mo sub easily.
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The mice I have had usually suffered either a worn out switch/wheel or a broken USB cable.
Things wear out - that's just normal.
Another factor that causes replacement is that the devices becomes so dirty that they are considered a health hazard or starts to consider creating a new colony of life somewhere.
Re:or... make it serviceable and offer paid repair (Score:5, Insightful)
Moreover, none of these can be solved by a software update.
Honestly even in the 1800s (Score:2)
The only way you stop planned obsolescence is you do what your up did and you just pass laws and then you strictly enforce them. You are always going to make more money selling a product that breaks down and has to be replaced then you are selling
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The real problem is we've expanded pretty much as much as we can and we've got companies that have consolidated again and again and again so markets are finite and that means the only way to grow is to figure out how to get the same consumers to buy your product again and again.
Or, while you're profiting from that great software, try to make some software that effectively solves a new problem for another business. You know, diversify your business. Enshittifying your product is NOT the only route to profitability.
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You know, like things worked for that last few thousand and somehow allowed companies to grow and thrive.
Nope. That was "the old way," where companies provided a product for a price and what the customer did with it afterwards, including repair, rebuild, or customize, was up to the customer. Now? Companies have realized that they can charge the customer *FOREVER* whether they even use the product or not. They've gotten a taste of it. And they love it. They love it so much that they can not, under any circumstances, imagine a world where forever payments for absolutely nothing are just a given.
I expect we'll se
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There is zero need to update software on a mouse. What wears out on a mouse so that it needs replacing is NEVER the firmware! If you don't add new buttons then the functionality does not change... Functionality on my mice have never changed since the advent of USB. Logitech of course supplies useless and redundant drivers which I never use because they're pointless, but that's not the same as adding functionality to the mouse itself.
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What worked for the last few thousand eventually became insufficient to fuel infinite exponential growth. So at this point private ownership of products with only an initial purchase cost is becoming a limitation hampering further economic growth.
And we can't have an economy without infinite exponential growth in a finite world, because otherwise a few people wouldn't be able to use large amounts of money to make more money without doing any work, and that would defy the whole point of the system.
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You know which mice Logitech makes that are "Forever" mice?
The wireless trackballs. There are no parts to wear out. Trackballs glide on ruby bearings and it's practically impossible to destroy or lose the rubies. On the other hand nearly every mouse, wears out, primarily as a consequence of the mouse wheel (which breaks on all cheap mice like Razer and Asus models within a month.)
The only thing Logitech can do to make the switches not wear out is to use optical switches and make the buttons themselves out o
Software updates? (Score:5, Insightful)
Why would a mouse need software updates? It's an x-y encoder with some switches. The only software is the 3 cent microcontroller that talks USB.
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I like being able to program my buttons, they don't quite have the defaults I want.
As for software updates, I guess they mean if an OS creates a new function you may want to map?
Mice pretty much last forever anyway though, so I'm skeptical of this forever mouse. I buy a mouse, program a couple buttons, and it seems to last through a few computers (unless a new feature worth having cones out).
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Mice pretty much last forever anyway though, so I'm skeptical of this forever mouse. I buy a mouse, program a couple buttons, and it seems to last through a few computers (unless a new feature worth having cones out).
In my experience, mice are duking it out with hard drives for the title of the least reliable computing gear. I rarely have a mouse that lasts more than a couple of years before the micro switches start going bad: Either bouncing, requiring excessive force, or in one recent case, occasionally skipping steps on the wheel. Contact cleaner never seems to help much. (This is with brand name mice, too. I learned long ago that no-name mice are often garbage right out of the box.)
If they are selling an alleged "f
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They said this new "forever" mouse was a bit heavier, to me that means maybe it is made more of metal and less plastic which should last longer, no?
I'd pay extra for THAT....but not a monthly or annual rental fee.
I'm simple, gimme a L and R mouse button and a wheel and I'm pretty much good.
I love a good quality heavy, metal chassis buckling spring keyboard...I'd like a nice, heavy metal mouse that was quality and long l
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My first Roku device, the 3" by 3" square, felt solid and sturdy. It turns out it just had a piece of metal inside the plastic case to give it enough weight that the attached cables wouldn't cause it to tip up slightly... Now the entire functionality and more is in a tiny USB stick where it doesn't need weight.
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Agreed. I invested in a gaming mouse some years ago because I liked the greater weight, and bought a second as a spare. Now it's years and three computers later, and the spare is still new in box.
I think it depends on what you buy. You can literally buy a $1.99 mouse off Amazon, and it might last a few months. Money well spent I guess. But if you buy a $40 gaming mouse, it not only feels better but will likely outlast the computer to which it is attached.
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Hardware Updates more Important (Score:2)
As for software updates, I guess they mean if an OS creates a new function you may want to map?
Since you can usually map buttons to any key on the keyboard exactly what sort of function are you thinking of? I can't really think of any similar things in the past which suggests that even if it did happen in the future it would be very rare and at that point you could just pay once for a software update. What is far more likely, since it has happened in the past, is that the interface for mice has changed from serial to PS/2 to USB-A to USB-C. So to be a "forever mouse" it would need to include hardwar
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If only we had some programmable electronics attached to the mouse... For example, we could put it on the other end of the USB cable!
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You program those button in software, on the PC. The firmware on the mouse doesn't change. Now it's possible that you can get a mouse where you can remap on the device itself that button 5 actually sends keystrokes or pretends to be the scroll wheel, but generally you can do all of that on the host side.
Re: Software updates? (Score:2)
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I'd rather be able to program my portable mouse once rather than every computer I take it to.
On top of that, I don't think I can even install drivers on my work computer, so unless the generic driver has all of the features of my mouse I wouldn't be able to use it as I'd like.
I am sure most people are happy with a generic n button +
n wheel mouse (I am too), but I find the magic scroll wheel on my Logitech mouse pretty awesome.
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Why would a mouse need software updates? It's an x-y encoder with some switches. The only software is the 3 cent microcontroller that talks USB.
Oh, but you overlooked their new-and-improved way of telling the customer they need to pay a premium now in order to get a product that might come close to their new-and-improved legal definition of “lifetime”, which of course will come with a 21st Century EULA in clear legalese outlining half a dozen reasons why your hardware and software claims won’t be warranted, starting with a global pandemic supply chain clause of course.
Not to mention I can pull damn near any mouse off the used hard
Re: Software updates? (Score:2)
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I thought that, but recently gaming keyboards started to get updates that added a new feature. Basically two keys become mutually exclusive, and the last one pressed is reported to the computer.
It gives people a massive advantage in certain games.
While these things only come along every few years, and there is less scope for it with mice, the lack of firmware updates is currently sending many keyboards to the trash.
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Why would a mouse need software updates? It's an x-y encoder with some switches. The only software is the 3 cent microcontroller that talks USB.
Profits
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Because they can't otherwise lock features behind a subscription obviously :P
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Yeah, for now. But *future* mice could be loaded with gizmos. Imagine a heart-rate monitor built in to take readings from your hand and update your health insurance company in real time as you're cranking it [...]
Damn, were you in the Logitech meeting too?
Jokes aside, I fear that this is their real motive. Selling user data.
Ok... (Score:2)
Reading this I don't trust Logitech anymore. Any good replacements which don't have any strange features, don't need constant firmware updates, and don't need fancy drivers (invariably Windows only) to function properly (or even at all)?
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I'm pretty sure no.
Some of the gaming mice are pretty good, but they usually have similar software, and nothing really compares to the scroll wheel on the MX Master series.
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Some of the gaming mice are pretty good, but they usually have similar software,
I use a Razer Deathaddr, without their software, and it functions just fine.
Of course, I'm not a gamer, so I don't really need programmed buttons.
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I'm sure it works fine, but it could maybe work better for you.
I had a RAZR mouse with 4 extra buttons and I didn't like the default treatment of what they did so I changed them, and made the mouse more useful for me (I changed the DPI up and down and forward and back buttons locations specifically). I'm not a gamer, but I do use those buttons (especially the forward and back ones) and was pleased to put them where I wanted them.
Similarly my Logitech mouse works fine, but I am happy I was able to make the m
lol (Score:2)
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Did she keep a straight face when saying that? (Score:5, Insightful)
Given how long computer mice last already, her statement hardly even qualifies as specious. But every company seems to be trying to hop aboard the Subscription Gravy Train nowadays, and I suppose she feels the need to pay lip service to the fallacy that it would benefit their customers rather than just being a blatant attempt at a money grab.
absolutely not (Score:2, Insightful)
Logitech uses trash micro switches.
No way anything they make will last forever any more.
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Exactly. If they are banking on "software updates", then they need to make a mouse that can be used for at least two years with minimal function loss (nevermind "forever"). I have three G602s that still "work", but the left click mechanisms are basically shot (50% chance to either register a double-click or no click at all.) Frustrating-but-simple surgery can be done to extend their life slightly, but it's a losing battle. Can't even be used for basic, day-to-day stuff.
Meanwhile I have a Logitech MX Laser f
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Subscription? (Score:3)
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A quality watch just needs the battery changed occasionally.
You're thinking of shitty obsolete but overpriced mechanical watches.
That 50-year old mechanical watch you inherited from your grandfather, still works. And only requires you to use a couple of fingers to wind it. Or just wear it and it winds itself.
If you want that newfangled oops-proof battery powered watch of yours to actually last, you’ll be paying someone to replace the battery properly, to seal the case back to meet your original oops-proof needs. And it will only cost you $20-30 every time to do that. And it will cost the one who inherits that watch even mor
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No (Score:4, Interesting)
Software updates don't fix hardware failures. They're just looking for an excuse to charge a subscription plan on a damned mouse.
They basically took the "planned obsolesce" business strategy and was like 'what if it DIDN'T break, but they still keep paying us anyways'.
" to maintain its functionality over time" (Score:5, Insightful)
"would rely on software updates and services to maintain its functionality over time"
Yeah, no thanks, fuck you with the wide end of a rake.
I could see the merit of a mouse that works without batteries, along the lines of a mechanical auto-wind watch. Not sure if it's possible in a practical sense, but it might well be.
But "software updates and services to maintain its functionality over time" reeks of intrusive bullshit.
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I just use a mouse that has a cable - no batteries needed.
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The cable eventually wears out.
However you probably can do a mouse with an USB (not mini, not micro, no C) port you plug a wire, then you plug the other end on the computer.
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The cable can break sometimes, but its not that difficult to fix or replace.
Looking at my mouse (Logitech, but the sticker with the model number on the bottom has worn out). there is not enough space to put a normal Type B USB port between the buttons (the place where the current cable comes out). There is enough space on the side, but that would be annoying to use.
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It should be a C - designed with the most durability in mind, and easy to replace.
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I could see the merit of a mouse that works without batteries
Like the ones that plug into a computer via USB? ;-)
More seriously - I've got optical USB-corded mice that still function and are at least 15 years old. I've got functional optical Bluetooth mice that are of a similar vintage. In practical terms, we already have mice that can be considered "forever mice".
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The mouse existed for over 25 years before the first mouse requiring batteries existed. Pretty sure it's possible in a practical sense.
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It's a fair point though.
The mouse that came with my Apple IIgs in 1986 works fine. Mice don't have to be wireless, and they already work for decades. That IIgs mouse will work with a new computer in 2024 with a ADB to USB adapter.
The "forever" mouse was invented long ago. And Logitech needs to be smacked down hard for this rent-seeking behavior.
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Recently, I had to cut about 6 inches of wire off at the mouse end cos it was broken inside. It was easy enough to do.
I will NEVER buy a mouse that requires regular payments. If i can't fix it, I will buy another on-line.
I don't want "wireless" I want my mouse to have a tail, so I can retrieve it when it fa
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fuck you with the wide end of a rake
Found something that beats my "fuck you with a splintered phone pole"
"Maintained by subscription services" (Score:3)
Jesus. It's a fucking MOUSE. It sends x and y movement and button presses through the HID system on your computer.
If your mouse requires constant software updates for that... you built a shitty mouse. If you MAKE your mouse require constant software updates to milk people for money, you're a greedy SOB who should DIAF.
Logitech Buttons Switches == Crap Quality := Less- (Score:2)
The Logitech button switches that they use in their mice are absolute crap. They are the lowest of the lowest quality and they last sometimes just a few months and rarely more than a year or two .
I've had multiple button failures on my Logitech mice throughout the history of using them, which was a very short history before I switched to other manufacturers that did not use such low quality crap switches .
There are countless reports and websites and guides and videos showing you how to replace and change th
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I tried the VicTsign mice and I like their mice.
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>The Logitech button switches that they use in their mice are absolute crap
I remember when mice had balls. Sticky balls that ended up covered in hair and dirt, rubbing up against plastic wheels that picked up the dirt and eventually failed to reliably measure movement.
Switching to optical was like going from audio cassette to MP3. I wonder if maybe we should give up on mechanical buttons and all their problems - optical sensors on the front of the mouse could pick up motion instead. Blackberry did tha
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And over in the workstation market, Sun had those early optical mice that needed that special metal mouse pad with the two-color grid!
Licensed from Mouse Systems (Score:2)
The early Sun optical mouse was just a re-branded Mouse Systems optical mouse.
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And over in the workstation market, Sun had those early optical mice that needed that special metal mouse pad with the two-color grid!
Ah memories. The OG metal mousepad. Hardcore.
Gotta love how old turns to not-improved these days.
Reverse engineered in five minutes (Score:3)
Short Lived Buttons (Score:2)
I consider myself lucky if a single click doesn't transform into a double click after just 2 years of normal (not gamer) usage. Event with gamer models.
I keep my Mouseman Plus [aolcdn.com] in a box, just in case
A gamer model is no better, even a 502-Hero-something's buttons lasted just 2 years, may be 3 tops.
First AI Now This (Score:2)
They added AI to their Logi Tune software not long ago. After some backlash, they made it able to be disabled, and not run in the background all the time. But subscription mice are the second step in the wrong direction. I've used Logitech mice since 1991, but I think I'll be looking somewhere else next time.
I mull a subscription for my marketing information (Score:2)
In fact, I think every company should have to pay me each time they access my marketing data, I'll offer it as a subscription through, and any company that has it as part of their data set has to pay monthly to keep it.
G9 Laser mouse still going (Score:2)
Still using the Logitech G9 Laser mouse I bought more than 15 years ago. Hasn't needed any software updates.
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Mice and Watches are not related... (Score:2)
It's a hard sell to come up with a reason why I should pay a monthly fee for a mouse, unless that fee is some kind of lease
meeces to pieces (Score:2)
This is completely unnecessary. I've been upgrading my own mouse as necessary for decades and--
[Spills Shasta on wire-nuts attaching mouse to computer via lamp cord, is electrocuted instantly.]
How about no. (Score:2)
Or I could just continue to use my Dell scroll mouse from 2005. Still works fine. With no subscription fees. And it appears to have been made by Logitech.
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I have an MS wheel mouse I've used for a decade or more and even though I dropped it and broke the red transparent tailpeice it still works fine.
I have another one on the shelf still boxed. I suspect between the two of them they will see me to retirement or until mice are no longer the input device of choice
.
you want an mouse that will be $2.99/mo! (Score:2)
you want an mouse that will be $2.99/mo!
Re: you want an mouse that will be $2.99/mo! (Score:2)
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Don't forget the inflation correction of 15%!
Beware Logitech Software (Score:2)
One of the reasons I stopped using Logitech peripherals several years ago was due to the problematic software updates. One minute my mouse was fine, after a software update problematic. Now I can pay for that wonderfulness?
I now stick with hardware that I can control and does not require external software to work properly, like my keyboard with my own QMK customizations.
Nope. (Score:2)
That is a big bunch of nope right there.
I've been using a Microsoft mouse for 15 years (Score:2)
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and a new one is maybe $20, at most. What sort of longer mouse lifetime could I possibly need?
The kind that funds Gen-Z executive bonuses.
You act as if the rent-a-puter future holds great mystery with a consumer audience this gullible. SaaS would have been under the guillotine before the first sales pitch was done back in the day, with a wiser audience cheering for that death instead of sponsoring it.
Subscriptions != Forever (Score:2)
They just can't help it (Score:2)
They want to charge you continuously.
In the beginning everything (except the computer, which was a one-time payment) was free. ...and the people just blindly accept this.
Then we started to also pay for software once.
After that they discovered subscriptions for things that made sense (like for internet servers).
Then they discovered people were willing to pay a lot first, followed by a juicy subscription (MMOs anyone?)
Now they're discovering subscriptions for things that don't make sense.
It's like the frog wh
Servicable Mouse (Score:2)
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But along the lines of your comment: microswitches could be mounted in socket pins, if they cared ro design the PCB that way, so that the end-user could easily replace them themselves.
So Logitech's Windows 10 (Score:2)
So Logitech's Windows 10... Also isn't this just a thing where they are trying to spin back the idea that we can replace parts as a special model? Last I heard replacing parts in something so it could last longer is *specifically* the thing all these companies were fighting against. So now that Right to Repair has passed in a few key markets perhaps this is another way to battle it by instilling the idea in consumers minds that devices which comply are "special" or "priced higher".
Interesting indeed.
Don't implement features, get paid anyway! (Score:2)
Sounds like a great gig for a company that couldn't figure out how to do the same button scrolling method on the marble mouse that X has done for... decade(s?).
Not that it matters since they killed off the marble mouse. No, thanks, I won't be paying a subscription to you... nor apparently buying any more of your pointer products.
65 comments in... (Score:2)
Phrase not found
How?
Not even if the hardware was free. (Score:2)
Keyboards too. Although this new one looks it may last too long for the Logitech sales model. Oh well, too bad for them.
If that isn't lucrative enough for them maybe next time I don't renew the subscription and go to a competitor.
Fuck off. (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't want "software as a service".
I really don't want hardware as a service either. Stop rent-seeking. A mouse doesn't need constant software updates. It needs solid engineering, components that don't break, and a standards-based universal API so that any OS can talk to any mouse that is compliant.
Stop trying to chisel your way into my setup and trying to suck money out of my wallet for offering me absolutely no value over a competitor that doesn't do these things.
Sound like they asked an "AI" (Score:2)
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There are people in every organization doing exactly that, right now.
For every couple of guys in a boardroom doing it, there are a dozen underlings doing the same and pitching anything that doesn't involve glue-pizza to whoever they are trying to impress.
You can't tell the A.I.deas from the real ones, because they both sound equally dumb. The AI having been trained on corporatespeak in the first place.
Maybe all these bobbleheads feeding AI output to eachother will eventually cause something akin to a model
How long is long enough? (Score:2)
... a long-lasting mouse that could potentially serve customers "forever," ...
I got a Logitech M-BA47 from my work around 1999/2000. I used that mouse continuously, with 10+ different computers, and a new job, until ~2022 when one of the micro switches stopped responding. I could have repaired it, but for only a little more then the cost of the replacement switch I was able to find a "new" (still sealed in box) M-BA47 on e-bay. I kept the old one for parts, but I expect this "new" one to last longer then me. WTF would I need a mouse that lasts longer then that?
Drawer full of mice (Score:2)
Mice are so cheap and commonplace, that I have a drawer full of mice that have barely been used. If my mouse gives out (and that doesn't happen often), I just pull another one from the drawer. I have no idea who would think this subscription mouse is a good idea.
Idiots Drilling Holes in Boat Will Rent It (Score:2)
But My Rolex (Score:2)
Doesn't demand another payment just to keep working.
I think the solution is to prove to these companies if you're going to gouge us every year; we might as well just buy disposable shit.
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I think it's named Logicool in Japan.