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AI Microsoft Windows

Microsoft Rolled Out AI PCs That Can't Play Top Games (msn.com) 79

Posted by msmash from the that's-a-shame dept.
The latest Windows personal computers with AI features have "the best specs" on "all the benchmarks," Microsoft Chief Executive Satya Nadella recently said. There is one problem: The chips inside current models are incompatible with many leading videogames. From a report: Microsoft and its partners this spring rolled out Copilot+ PCs that include functions such as creating AI-generated pictures and video. Under the hood of the new laptops is a hardware change. Instead of the Intel chips that have powered Microsoft Windows PCs for nearly four decades, the initial Copilot+ PCs to hit the market use Qualcomm chips, which in turn rely on designs from U.K.-based Arm.

Most PC games, including popular multiplayer games such as "League of Legends" and "Fortnite," are made to work with Intel's x86, a chip architecture that has been the standard for many personal computers for decades. To make some of these programs function on the Qualcomm-Arm system, they must be run through a layer of software that translates Intel-speak into Arm-speak. Chip experts say the approach isn't perfect and can result in bugs, glitches or games simply not working. The problem is widespread. About 1,300 PC games have been independently tested to see if they work on Microsoft's new Arm-powered PCs and only about half ran smoothly, said James McWhirter, an analyst with research firm Omdia.

Microsoft Rolled Out AI PCs That Can't Play Top Games More | Reply

Microsoft Rolled Out AI PCs That Can't Play Top Games

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  • Surface? (Score:3)

    by Gilgaron ( 575091 ) on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @04:44PM (#64762892)
    Surface are more business PCs than gaming PCs, this isn't really any more surprising than saying a education focused Chromebook sucks at playing Crysis.

    • Surface are more business PCs than gaming PCs

      And yet VPN suppliers don't update their client applications for ARM.

      • false. openvpn supports linux arm64.

        if your vpn provider needs a proprietary app and doesn't work with openvpn, it's dogshit at best and malicious at worst.

        • Maybe it uses WireGuard instead :)

        • There are many reasons not to use openvpn, starting first and foremost with its terrible performance and single-threading, even under multi-client models.

          There is only one really big reason to use openvpn- flexibility. You can do anything with it.

        • false. openvpn supports linux arm64.

          if your vpn provider needs a proprietary app and doesn't work with openvpn, it's dogshit at best and malicious at worst.

          OpenVPN is there, but Cisco AnyConnect isn't (well, it is... some horribly obsolete thing that is no longer maintained in the Windows App Store). ZScaler has only just started supporting Windows ARM, and SonicWall appears to be missing in action (or it was last time I checked). I don't have any choice in this; these are the decision made by my corporate clients.

      • Iâ(TM)m reading this on an M1 iPad which most definitely runs PureVPN and OpenVPN just fine.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      This illustrates why it's hard to get people to shift to e.g. Linux. Most people are clueless, they buy a laptop and they expect it to do all the usual laptop stuff. It's even worse when the marketing tells them it's a high end super powerful machine.

      Apple get away with it because they are Apple, but Microsoft actually has to make a good experience for customers. They could have done more for compatibility I think. Even some stuff like parts of the Adobe suite don't work, apparently.

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

        Microsoft can't do much. Their value comes from widespread third party support on software side. And that means by definition that there must be enough value in it for third parties to compile their software for this new platform.

        That said, Microsoft has been dreaming of killing the norm of non-store installs on windows and 30% revenue split from every piece of windows software for a while now. So they'll probably try to push this as hard as possible.

        • Re: (Score:3)

          by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          Windows on ARM has a built in x86 emulator with JIT translation feature, similar to Apple's. It can run most x86 code, but there seem to be some limitations with certain copy protection mechanisms. There also seem to be some issues with performance in certain applications, probably related to vector instructions.

          • Re: (Score:1)

            by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

            "It works, but it kinda doesn't" can be summarized as "niche".

            • Re: (Score:3)

              by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

              As I said previously on another thread, if you aren't a gamer or using the relatively small list of affected apps, they make great machines. Extremely good battery life, putting Apple to shame, and performance that is more than adequate for general office, browsing, and productivity.

              Adobe is porting apps and others will too. Compatibility is improving.

              • Re: (Score:1)

                by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

                I'm sure Microsoft will have a wonderful niche, just like it did with previous iteration of this project. And I'm sure they'll keep trying until they finally force it mainstream, so they can kill x86 windows off and charge 30% store tax.

                • Re: (Score:2)

                  by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

                  I think this time could be different. It's not just Microsoft, several manufacturers have ARM models out now. HP, Dell, I think Lenovo have one, Acer... They seem to be more committed and the initial reviews show that for people who are looking for a mid range or budget machine with fantastic battery life and optionally a great screen, they are very attractive.

              • Extremely good battery life, putting Apple to shame

                Huh? Microsoft advertises 14hrs of video playback for the Surface Pro. Apple advertises 18 hours of productivity for the Macbook Air. From the reviews I've seen Apple's claims are typically plausible.

                • Re: (Score:2)

                  by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

                  In real tests by reviewers, the Windows ARM machines have proven to be even better than Macbooks. Keep in mind that it's difficult to compare like-for-like due to different specs, and video playback is one very specific benchmark.

                  For more realistic use cases, people are charging once a week with ~3 hours use a day, so around 21 hours of browsing, light CAD, video/music, basic photo editing etc. From memory the guy at LTT who did that had an OLED model as well, i.e. power hungry screen.

                  • Seems like a boneheaded move, if Microsoft is underselling the battery life of one of their flagship devices. They must know that they're going to be directly compared to Apple in that regard.

                    • Re: (Score:2)

                      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

                      Maybe it's just the surface. Smaller batter perhaps. The others are laptops, so more room for battery capacity.

  • I saw an AI toothbrush in a shop the other day. No joke. There seems to be a race on to find how many things that they can ruin with pointless AI.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by gweihir ( 88907 )

      Personally, I am waiting for AI toilet paper.

    • There seems to be a race on to find how many things that they can ruin with pointless AI.

      Someone should develop an AI to help with that. :-)

    • Actually that one isn't too bad. They used lots of training data to train a model that understand what movement of the toothbrush ensures that every area of your teeth is properly brushed and can point out areas you're missing.

      But what do you mean with "ruin"? In what way is the toothbrush ruined given the presence of a completely optional feature?

      It's not like those AI drills which can't drive a screw deep enough due to the AI torquing feature that leaves the head standing slightly out ... even in their ow

    • I saw an AI toothbrush in a shop the other day. No joke. There seems to be a race on to find how many things that they can ruin with pointless AI.

      The AI toothbrush is literally a data collector. I've read up on them. It feeds brushing data to the cloud. Why? I guess somebody wants all that sweet, juicy brushing data. WTF? Sometimes I wonder what happened to this world. Then I realize I don't want to know.

      • Skynet wants to know who doesn't brush their teeth every day. It also wants to know who hasn't eaten their spinach and who has been naughty. Expect other AI products to collect the needed data.

        • Skynet wants to know who doesn't brush their teeth every day. It also wants to know who hasn't eaten their spinach and who has been naughty. Expect other AI products to collect the needed data.

          Skynet was Santa Claus's helper all along, and just got frustrated by all the naughty boys and girls. So misunderstood. Poor Skynet.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Calydor ( 739835 )

        The insurance companies want that information on you so a claim for a dentist's bill can be refused on grounds of it being your own damned fault because you held the toothbrush wrong once four years ago.

        • The insurance companies want that information on you so a claim for a dentist's bill can be refused on grounds of it being your own damned fault because you held the toothbrush wrong once four years ago.

          What's funny is ten years ago this would have been considered paranoia. Now? It's inevitable. Fuck sake. Maybe unrestrained, completely unregulated capitalism isn't good for everybody?

  • ARM Surfaces have always been a problem and literally no one should ever buy one.

  • One of the reasons they call it the tongue-in-cheek "PC Master Race" is because you're expected to have a basic understanding of hardware before you sit down to blast away at some aliens. If grasping the concept of minimum hardware specs to run this game is too complicated, you're probably better off sticking to gaming on consoles.

    • Don't understand the complaint. It's surprising and interesting that the big line of fast laptops coming out can't do games.

      • No, it is not. Its a different architecture. If you're confused by that, well I have nothing. Maybe if playing top games is a priority, look into the specs of your machine? There are plenty of intel/amd machines that can't play these same games. A mac can't play these games. A chromebook can't play these games. Its not rocket science.

        • Fortnite requirements: Processor: Core i5-7300U 3.5 GHz, AMD Ryzen 3 3300U, or equivalent

          Microsoft is marketing these laptops as equivalent or better.

        • No, it is not. Its a different architecture.

          If they are that different, then they shouldn't be sold as "Windows PCs", Macs and Chromebooks are not sold as Windows PCs so buyers don't expect them to work like that.

  • Wrong title boys, you need the game makers to make their stuff work on a new architecture. Give it a few years, until than Copilot is a game itself.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Junta ( 36770 )

      The thing is there's not enough interest to break the chicken and egg.

      Microsoft is willing to give it a shot, but if x86 continues to do just fine, they aren't going to force the issue.

      The software side isn't going to either.

      ARM would have to be much much better, but in practice... it doesn't.

    • Actually, a lot of the games run on Arm on other platforms (Macs, iOS devices and Android phones and Chrome devices). From what I can gather what the Game developers and PC industry producing the Windows PC's have to contend with is bad graphic chip designs or drivers that don't take advantage of the Qualcomm chips graphic pipelines. Apple, from the get-go had graphics in mind and made sure that they were capable and worked. Qualcomm and Microsoft pushed out the chips and OS to fast and are paying a price f

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Calydor ( 739835 )

      You mean just like they're making specific Linux ports instead of focusing 100% on Windows?

  • DRM and anti cheat get in the way of emulation and linux play.

  • Let's see whether enough MS fanbois are dumb enough to buy these.

    • The only thing which continues is you using words incorrectly. Microsoft releasing an ARM PC is not enshittification by any stretch of the definition of the word. Hint: the definition is not "things gweihir doesn't like".

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Xenx ( 2211586 )
      Yes, all those poor souls buying a relatively decent laptop with great battery life. Everyone has their own needs, and these system won't tick every box. I wouldn't want to play any heavy games on one of these, but I also wouldn't want to do it on just about any ultra-light portable laptop. It's just not what they're designed to do.

      • What I'm afraid of is that MS will eventually lock down these machines to prevent them from running Linux, if they've not done so yet, and force other manufacturers to do the same thing through their Windows certification program.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Xenx ( 2211586 )
          I'd say that is no bigger of a risk here than anywhere else. MS has been selling Surface devices for over a decade, and it's been possible to install Linux there. If any devices were going to outright prevent it, it'd be their own. Personally, I think MS sees it in their best interest not to stop it. Such a small percentage of their userbase is going to take the time to make the move when it comes with Windows. Why give another reason for people to get upset at them?
  • Intel has a long history of releasing libraries that are only compatible with it's own chips.

  • x86 sucks and Arm is a better architecture, backward compatibility is still more important than tiny performance and cost differences
    There is LOTS of old x86 code out there that will never be ported
    Microsoft moving to Arm is a BIG mistake.
    One of the biggest advantages that Microsoft and Intel have had for years is backward compatibility

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by caseih ( 160668 )

      Sure but odds are this old x86 code that will never be ported does not exactly require the latest multi-core intel chips to run. It will run acceptably under x86 emulation, just like Apple does with Rosetta. Windows will always have x86 backwards compatibility even as ARM Windows gains traction. Don't see how you can call this a "BIG mistake."

  • Looks like PlaysForShit [wikipedia.org] is making a comeback!!

    • This time it has nothing to do with DRM, though. The new "AI" part isn't what prevents you from playing the games, either. It's little more than a marketing slogan and a bunch of utterly useless features.

  • they want you to buy two laptops. A win for microsoft and a win for the hardware companies. Nobody cares more about your paycheck then the hardware makers.
  • Like ok. they can't do something I don't want to do, Guess I'll still buy one. Or if you did want to game, don't buy one? Its not exactly shocking or confusing.

  • For more AI integrated into their PC?

  • The problem is widespread. About 1,300 PC games have been independently tested to see if they work on Microsoft's new Arm-powered PCs and only about half ran smoothly,

    I don't understand why the result is this poor, when Apple in the shift to ARM had a translation emulator where most apps seemed to work quite well on...

    I guess maybe games tend to have a lot more custom assembly that causes issues for translation layers.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Xenx ( 2211586 )
      Not too surprising when you look at the specs. TFLOPS isn't the best direct comparison metric, but the Snapdragon SOC has about half the TFLOPS of the AMD 780M integrated GPU.

  • They should have asked the AI to help them design these computers for gaming. :-P

    On a somewhat related note, the current state of AMD64 -> ARM64 in Windows 11 seems pretty decent, at least for some basic use cases. I had a client who wanted to run a piece of Windows-only software on their new MacBook M3. Originally, I tried the app a Windows 7 VM using x86 emulation, and it was trash. Not unexpected, but had hoped it wouldn't be quite that bad. Loaded Win11 ARM in a VM, instead, and it ran the x86 app j

  • Recall is the only thing that matters.

  • Said no one. In other news Apple apps don't work too well on Android.

  • Within a few months , everything will have an ARM version. Or die.

  • "translates Intel-speak into Arm-speak" Really? The race to the bottom is well underway.
  • Top Intel CPU architects are leaving to form a RISC-V startup. It'll be interesting to see at what tipping point it makes sense for large software devs to start developing for RISC for stuff like games and creative software. It's more likely as an architecture to replace desktop apps than ARM, and has a lot of benefits over trying to accomodate a standard set in 1978.

  • so... (Score:2)

    by Tom ( 822 )

    I've got to ask:

    Who buys a Microsoft product before version 3 ?

    I mean, seriously. We've all had decades to learn that. Never, ever, buy anything from MS before version 3.

  • I think the article is a clickbait hitpiece, that said on the consumer side Microsoft has very little clue what to do, except emulate Apple. Unfortunately they are Microsoft, the platform of backwards compatibility. Instead of playing to their strengths their attempt to emulate Apple with ARM turns it into a weakness.

    There was no real need either. Lunar Lake is showing it was never really about ISA ... just use the best TSMC process, solder LPDRR5 on the MCM and be able to turn off all your real cores so a

  • ARM requires translation to run x86 software (especially games) so it isn't going to work well in all cases. Qualcomm's latest snapdragon X ARM cpu offers better performance per watt than most x86 offerings at the moment, so that pays off in laptops as better battery life. A laptop with fantastic battery life that can run most software but not a lot of games? Sounds great for some people. Not so fine for others. Just know what you're buying and it'll be fine. It's not as if you can't buy x86 laptops anymore

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