Zuckerberg Says Apple's Culture is Not Like Meta's (msn.com) 78
Meta and Apple have increasingly been rivals, and Mark Zuckerberg only expects their competition to intensify in the coming years. From a report: "I think in a lot of ways we're like the opposite of Apple," Zuckerberg said. "Clearly, their stuff has worked really well too. They take this approach that's like, 'We're going to take a long time, we're going to polish it, we're going to put it out,' and maybe for the stuff that they're doing that works, maybe that just fits with their culture."
Zuckerberg went on to say Meta approaches product releases differently, saying, "there are a lot of conversations that we have internally where you're almost at the line of being embarrassed at what you put out." "You want to really have a culture that values shipping and getting things out and getting feedback more than needing always to get great positive accolades from people when you put stuff out," he continued.
He also took the opportunity to critique Apple's approach. "If you want to wait until you get praised all the time, you're missing a bunch of the time when you could've learned a bunch of useful stuff and then incorporated that into the next version you're going to ship," he said. [...] Zuck said one of his goals for the next 10 or 15 years is "to build the next generation of open platforms and have the open platforms win."
Zuckerberg went on to say Meta approaches product releases differently, saying, "there are a lot of conversations that we have internally where you're almost at the line of being embarrassed at what you put out." "You want to really have a culture that values shipping and getting things out and getting feedback more than needing always to get great positive accolades from people when you put stuff out," he continued.
He also took the opportunity to critique Apple's approach. "If you want to wait until you get praised all the time, you're missing a bunch of the time when you could've learned a bunch of useful stuff and then incorporated that into the next version you're going to ship," he said. [...] Zuck said one of his goals for the next 10 or 15 years is "to build the next generation of open platforms and have the open platforms win."
Opposite is not the right word. (Score:1)
Both companies are in it for the profits, the means to bring income differs.
Consequential vs inconsequential products/services (Score:2)
In what way is Apple and Meta the same?
Wildly commercially successful? Massively egotistical and controlling founders?
However one is shipping consequential products and services so they have to get things correct.
The other is shipping inconsequential services so there is no real harm when they fail.
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They're not similar at all. Facebook wants to be viewed as serious as Apple is, but it sells no hardware anyone actually wants or needs, no software that is in "everything"
Hell, I can name exactly ONE thing that facebook makes that's in everything, and it's easily replaced.
OVRLIPSYNC
That's right, damn near every 2D and 3D application and game out there is using Occulus's audio-lipsync library. And because they don't produce a version of it for all platforms, that has driven an opensource alternatives, but h
In what way is Apple and Meta the same? (Score:5, Insightful)
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They're both complicit in surveiling their users for spy agencies and run multinational shell company schemes to avoid paying corporate taxes where they do business.
One presumes that's the quid pro quo.
https://arstechnica.com/securi... [arstechnica.com]
Re: In what way is Apple and Meta the same? (Score:2)
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Aside from a VR headset, not really seeing it. Where's the Meta Phone, Laptop and Operating System?
Came to say pretty much that. Apple actually puts out products; beyond the VR stuff, Meta's only products are their subscribers.
I suspect this is just ol' Zuckerbarf trying to seem relevant and insightful and human. Nadella and Pichai do the same thing, and it's cringeworthy. They're all lightweight wankers when it comes to theorizing and philosophizing, but Zuck's probably the least insightful.
Does anybody really listen to these guys? If so, why?
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I suspect this is just ol' Zuckerbarf trying to seem relevant and insightful and human.
He's still upset that pedo guy wouldn't fight after the guy's mommy was afraid he might get hurt [sbnation.com].
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Well earned Funny, but to answer your closing question, even though I believe it was rhetorical:
Many people listen to lottery winners. They think the "winners" must be better people in some way. But the reality is different. Someone had to win.
There is some conclusion because many of the tech lotteries have unusually expensive tickets with lots of extra requirements before you are even in the game. But in the end it still comes down to luck. (Okay, that's probably going too far. The larger mistakes of the o
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Where's the Meta Phone, Laptop and Operating System?
For the OS: Meta is a top contributor to the linux kernel, anywhere 3rd-8th depending how to count. They develop BPF and btrfs. The stats:
* 6.8 https://lwn.net/Articles/96410... [lwn.net]
* 6.9 https://lwn.net/Articles/97260... [lwn.net]
* 6.10 https://lwn.net/Articles/98155... [lwn.net]
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Where's the Meta Phone
Back in 2013, where it got left. [cnet.com]
I'm not sure Zuck really wanted to bring that up (Score:5, Interesting)
Apple products mostly just work. Facebook, on the other hand, can't even keep its message editor working.
Apple products are popular and often considered visionary. Meta spent a fortune failing to build a business version of World of Warcraft.
We can certainly agree that Meta does not share Apple's culture or functionality.
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Apple products mostly just work. Facebook, on the other hand, can't even keep its message editor working.
In terms of just work I sort of disagree. You end up with bugs here and there. That said Facebook has sold how many generations of VR headsets before Apple came along to make the "perfect" one priced so laughably out of reach that it is likely to be relegated to the history books as one of the company's biggest flops.
There's benefits to both approaches. You can see that in VR (let's face it, it's the only hardware product Facebook has - that's largely what they are talking about here, not messaging). Apple'
Facebook bought one, Apple designed one (Score:3)
Facebook has sold how many generations of VR headsets before Apple came along to make the "perfect" one
You mean Facebook bought Id/Carmack's Oculus VR before Apple did? The fact that Facebook shipped something working here was entirely due to Carmack who does NOT follow facebook's culture.
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You mean Facebook bought Id/Carmack's Oculus VR before Apple did?
Facebook has released 3 whole generations of products since that purchase, the two most recent ones after Carmack left. Yeah early R&D was done by Oculus, but the R&D that they were pushing has nothing to do with what Facebook released now. In fact Carmack infamously left Facebook because he didn't like where they were heading with the Quest 2.
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You mean Facebook bought Id/Carmack's Oculus VR before Apple did?
Facebook has released 3 whole generations of products since that purchase, the two most recent ones after Carmack left.
Your point that I responded to was that Facebook had years of experience before Apple released theirs. Yes, they did a buy not build strategy. Apple did a build strategy.
Yeah early R&D was done by Oculus, but the R&D that they were pushing has nothing to do with what Facebook released now.
Other than the experience you mention.
In fact Carmack infamously left Facebook because he didn't like where they were heading with the Quest 2.
As I said, he believes in building things that work, unlike Zuck. And the culture he built at Occulus that embodied his attitude would take years to fade away. It would not end the day he leaves.
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"Perfect" is also subjective.
I know that a lot of people use and love Apple products. The Apple ecosystem works for them, they love it. That's great and I'm not in any way dismissive of it.
A lot of what affects customer satisfaction is a) what you're used to using and b) what kind of user you are, in so far as your expectations as to how the device should behave and what you are able to do with it.
When I've had to use Apple devices for work, it has been a struggle to say the least. Basic features that I tak
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Apple products mostly just work. Facebook, on the other hand, can't even keep its message editor working.
In terms of just work I sort of disagree. You end up with bugs here and there. That said Facebook has sold how many generations of VR headsets before Apple came along to make the "perfect" one priced so laughably out of reach that it is likely to be relegated to the history books as one of the company's biggest flops.
Oculus sold multiple generations of VR headsets. Meta bought a working company. Anybody with money can buy their way to a successful product. This does not make their product development strategy a good model to emulate.
Meanwhile, Meta's main project, Facebook, is a train wreck. Basic things like being able to post text break constantly, which would "just work" if they got out of the way and stopped trying to interfere with basic text editing. Instead, they try to cram too much garbage code into the pr
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Oculus sold multiple generations of VR headsets. Meta bought a working company.
And Meta developed it further and marketed it further, and also massively changed direction from where the original company was heading (to the point where Carmack left the team). To claim that the current generations of Meta's headsets have anything do with with Oculus is not only denying reality, it's actively shitting on the work of Luckey, Carmack and the early Oculus team all of whom wanted to develop something different.
Meanwhile, Meta's main project, Facebook, is a train wreck.
And? Why bring irrelevant things into the discussion. There are companies who have
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I have experience going back to System 5 of the classic Mac OS, and with most of the versions in between then and now, and I can confidently say that there has never been any significant span of time when Apple products were more reliable than average unless you did less stuff with them, under which conditions Microsoft products also become more reliable. Early versions of Mac OS X showed considerable effort that they really never put into the Classic Mac OS, but most of that effort was bought in and ultima
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Your mileage definitely varies from mine. I've used most flavors of Windows starting with 95, and all flavors of Mac OS starting with System 6. In each case where I was using both at the same time, the Windows experience was markedly worse, even during the bad days of Mac OS System 7.x. And that's before considering the substantial differences in security vulnerability. I have a Windows 10 system in the basement, it's definitely worse than Windows 7, and nowhere near as usable or secure as Mac OS. I've
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System 7 was enormously crashy compared to System 6. 6.0.1 was fairly bad but by 6.0.7 it was quite stable and 6.0.8 was even better. And what really changed in 7? Answer, it was slightly prettier, and it let you run more stuff at once on top of an OS which was fundamentally never designed to run more stuff at once. Applications would step right on top of one another in the same way and for the same reason it happened on the Amiga, no memory protection. Machines which did have an MMU (which were severely in
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System 7 added the ability to have more than English and one other language available at the same time (WorldScript). Microsoft copied the approach Apple used in Windows 95. System 7 added a high-level inter-application communication framework (AppleEvents) and scripting engine (OSA, AppleScript). System 7.1 made managing large collections of fonts practical as they no longer needed to be stored in the System file. There was a lot of other stuff as well.
System 7.0.1 was pretty crappy, but 7.1 was rock s
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Apple products are popular and often considered visionary.
Mostly by people who don't know anything about the area in question. Apple are good at making polished products out of tech which has just arrived, often after a slew of not quite there products from others.
People assume that the first time they see something, it's new which is why Apple get the credit for "inventing" things which are "visionary". For example the iPhone.
Really Zuckerberg??? (Score:2)
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I find is repeatedly amusing when Zuckerberg makes statements where he means something something completely different than "yeah, because Facebook is a horrible company", but the wording can also support that interpretation - and that's where everyone else's mind immediately goes.
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Not like Meta[stasize] - you don't say! (Score:3)
Oh really Zuck? You don't think Apple are a bunch of privacy rapists like you? Wow what a surprise!
Why is Zuck pushing for Apple? (Score:5, Funny)
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And of course, "let your users debug your releases" worked well for Microsoft.
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"You can build things faster and better if you're always testing them."
No, you can't - because that isn't what actually happens. You've got a tautological error in your statement, because "faster" is directly oppositional to "testing them".
What ends up happening is you just keep releasing things that barely pass unit tests and security audits, which perform like shit, and have bugs up the ass - "corner cases". And you think that's fine, because you've mitigated it with a fault tolerant cloud design - but it
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Both approaches have benefits. You can see this in the VR space where Meta is several products in and have found and tried, and abandoned a variety of things. The problem with insisting you polish everything to perfection is you absolutely have to get it right or you end up failing hard. The end result is now a positive for Meta: they know what sells, they know what the marketing is pushing for, vs Apple who come along with perfection and got laughed out of the room for what they delivered, literally a prod
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Meta's approach (also the AWS approach) only works when there's little to no consequence of failure.
If alienating customers by burning their money has no consequences, then the Meta model works. If you've got vendor lock-in (AWS), the model works. If your customers are not your money-maker but the product (Meta), it works.
You've got to keep in mind that Meta is a marketing and advertising company which sells and works with global intelligence agencies. That's their real business, not "social media and AR".
Yeah right (Score:2)
Sure, push stuff out all the time whether it works or not, make people pay through the nose for the next half-assed VR headset and what have you so they can give QA feedback for the NEXT just-as-half-assed headset that costs twice as much ...
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Not defending Meta or Facebook (Quit Facebook 13+ years ago when it was too much invasion of my life).
But have you TRIED their VR?
I was one of the first adopters of HTC Vive VR that actually really worked, then I saw a future in VR, but it wasn't ready. We were about 200K users at that time in 2016 and it didn't grow much. You needed an very expensive computer, and the setup wasn't very home friendly with the 7-9 cables you needed just to get going, but it def. showed the future of VR, smooth, fast, and enj
"Open" platforms? (Score:2)
You keep using that word. I do not think it means, what you think it means.
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Activity pub being the open standard behind Mastedon and other open social media apps. The appeal to Zuck is to not have to do all of the moderation, while still benefiting blamelessly from the content. Oh no Trump insulted Italians, Muslims, Irish, Jewish, Blacks, Mexicans, Video game players and poor white males? Welp, he's not on our platform, he's on truth social*.
"build the next generation of open platforms" (Score:4, Interesting)
"build the next generation of open platforms and have the open platforms win"
Isn't the whole point of Facebook to be a closed platform? Apple and Facebook have that in common. They both like locked-down platforms.
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ok maybe but if he care about open standards, he would make not only Threads, but much more importantly Facebook open.
Federation could allow me to see my friend's Facebook posts without needing a Facebook account and be targeted by Facebook's ads.
Re: "build the next generation of open platforms" (Score:2)
Yes, and Activity Pub for Threads is still the future. They are only testing it. You still need an Instagram account to join.
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Apples vs oranges (Score:2, Insightful)
Hardware? (Score:4, Insightful)
Honestly, Apple is a hardware vendor. They can't just put out stuff that's at the line of being embarrassing and then collect feedback. Apple has to live with the consequences of bad design for years. Facebook does not.
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Apple has to live with the consequences of bad design for years. Facebook does not.
To be fair, Facebook is dealing with the consequences of their VR product, and it isn't great.
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Get whiz?!! .... (Score:3)
Zuckerberg Says Apple's Culture is Not Like Meta's
I never would have guessed if 'the Zuck' hadn't revealed these stunning news.
Apple v. Facebook (Score:1)
I trust Apple more than Facebook. Apple's stuff basically works, can't say the same for Facebook.
I've used both VR sets, and Apple's is clearly "better" though neither have become must-haves in our household. My son has a Meta VR and it was cool for a while, and has lost luster.
Other than that, I use my Apple stuff to access Facebook when I have to. But I don't need Facebook to access anything Apple. And I wouldn't pay Facebook unless I needed to - I choose to purchase Apple products as needed.
The most direct, telling statement (Score:2)
"I think in a lot of ways we're like the opposite of Apple... Clearly, their stuff has worked really well too.
So Meta's opposite of Apple would be... that their stuff doesn't work.
I don't particularly like either one (Score:2)
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I'll take... (Score:2)
He's right. (Score:5, Interesting)
Apple: I'm the customer.
Meta: I'm the product.
Never stable (Score:2)
New features are fine and all, but imagine a product that literally during its whole lifetime never works correctly. Every time one thing gets fixed, another thing is newly broken. There are way too many products like this. There are also bugs that never get fixed at any point because they aren't broken enough.
Since when has Apple sought praise (Score:1)
"If you want to wait until you get praised all the time"
Since when has Apple put stuff out expecting universal praise?
Even new product is met with harsh criticism. Either "no one will buy it" in the first iteration (see: iPhone, iPad, Apple Watch, etc) or "it hasn't changed enough, non one will buy it" (see: iPhone, iPad, Apple Watch, etc).
Apple puts out stuff when they think it reaches a minimum level of usability for customers. and then iterates - but the important thing is Apple is willing to iterate fo
Free test labor (Score:2)
That's essentially what Facebook does. Let's throw this half-assed product out there and see who complains and what they complain about.
How embarrassing for him (Score:2)
"You want to really have a culture that values shipping and getting things out and getting feedback more than needing always to get great positive accolades from people when you put stuff out," he continued.
Does he not realize this is, well... horrible?
This is how you end up with code that isn't supportable, or usable.
Yes, it works better with a "cloud" model like Meta, or Google or AWS, where you've got a very small surface of code visibility to your users. But Meta is hardly making a good product, as a re
React by Meta (Score:2)
I frankly doubt Meta could produce a device, or software release, as reliable as even Microsoft.
"Move fast and break things" (Score:2)
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Ewww (Score:2)
Zuckerberg spews more shit than New York City's sewage system at Super Bowl half time.
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No shit, Sherlock (Score:2)
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That's a culture shared by a lot of Bay Area tech companies.
Cathedral vs. the Bazzar in some sense (Score:1)
So Zuckerberg admits they sell crap.. (Score:2)
translated our products shit (Score:2)
Meta and Zuckerburg’s failure to launch (Score:2)
Peter Pan here
Apple’s SteveJobs never excused his actions or the company’s product. Zuck has never grokked that Apple are a third generation innovator. Taking inventions made by others that have never been integrated in a second gen product. Apple makes the paradigm leap innovating use for a new product better in every way for the consumer. AAPL killed the Apple Car - Tesla beat them to it – integrated mfg — innovated FSD.
Facebook is fabulous - none better at keeping family, school a
Makes me want to pee in his face (Score:1)
Agile! (Score:2)
Zuck uses a lot of words just to say Meta is Agile and Apple isn't.. (not siding on whether that's true or not just saying that's what he's saying)
Only problem is Zuck has misunderstood Agile. Agile does NOT mean "Throw a relentless torrent of sh!t at the wall and see what sticks" Agility and Fast Feedback doesn't eliminate any form of testing from your ecosystem.. The amount of broken code that gets shipped by Facebook is embarrassing. It feels like "Hey it compiled so I shipped it".. they need to do bette